You are here

Exposing False Zionist Quotes

41 posts / 0 new
Last post
Quintessenz
Exposing False Zionist Quotes

As a belated response to Pax, who tried to prove his point by linking to the obvious liar Mike Rivero, who clearly seems to have a certain agenda.

Exposing False Zionist Quotes (Quote Busters)

Did Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon vow to burn Palestinian children and rape Arabic girls? Did former Israeli leader Menachem Begin refer to Palestinians as “two-legged beasts,” and did another Israeli leader declare that all Arabs must be killed unless they are willing to live as slaves?

No, but given the number of Web sites repeating these allegations, it is easy to see how this nonsense has gained credence. Indeed, the attribution of invidious statements to Israel’s leaders has become a popular stratagem among Israel’s enemies. Many are fabricated, taken out of context or otherwise manipulated to present a distorted, negative view of Zionist intentions and actions. Propagated on the internet, some of these misquotes eventually make their way into opinion columns in campus newspapers and even, on occasion, the mainstream press.

Take for example, the following quote (found on anti-Israel Web sites) alleged to have been said by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to the Israeli parliament in October 2001 and reported on Kol Yisrael radio:

Don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.

The statement also appears as "I control America."

As it turns out, it is a hoax. Sharon never made either statement. Nor did Kol Yisrael ever report that he did.

Yet syndicated columnist Georgie Anne Geyer wrote in her May 10, 2002 opinion column, which appeared in the Chicago Tribune, San Diego Tribune, and other newspapers:

In fact, it [American support for Israel's actions] led Prime Minister Sharon to tell his Cabinet recently, "I control America."

Where did this quote originate and how did it enter the mainstream media?

CAMERA’s investigation found that it started with an October 3, 2001 press release from the pro-Hamas group, IAP – the Islamic Association for Palestine, which attributed the quote to a report on “the Israeli Hebrew radio, Col [sic] Yisrael.”

In fact, Kol Yisrael political correspondent Yoni Ben-Menachem, who reports on Cabinet meetings, confirmed to CAMERA that he never made such a broadcast and that Sharon never made such a statement. Nor was it reported by any other news service.

When confronted, Geyer told one editor that she relied on two anonymous Israeli sources for the quotation. She told a second editor the quote came from an alleged Ha’aretz article which she never produced and could not be found. A subsequent editor’s note by Geyer’s United Press Syndicate claimed the quote was widely reported in the Palestinian press (i.e. the IAP, which cited the bogus Kol Yisrael source) but could not be confirmed by independent sources.

Indeed for many, the Internet has completely replaced libraries, reference books, and original research as a source of information. This reliance on unregulated, unaccountable sources has boosted the proliferation of misinformation and bogus quotes. And when they are repeated by journalists, albeit those with radical anti-Israel agendas, few are willing to search deeper.

[...]

Former IDF Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan

We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.

Source given: Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, in articles by Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot April 13, 1983 and in New York Times, April 14, 1983

Investigation: The quote does not appear in either article. While both sources discuss comments made by then-outgoing Chief of Staff Eitan, there is nothing remotely resembling this quote. A wider search of the New York Times archives, also turns up nothing.

Summary: Fabricated quote, incorrect source

[...]

TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT

President Moshe Katsav

There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies – not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy.

Source given: Israeli president Moshe Katsav, Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

Investigation: While nothing was found in the source given, there was an account in the following day’s edition of the Jerusalem Post. This remark is completely removed from its context to make it sound racist. In fact, Katsav was specifically talking about the brutal murders by Palestinian terrorists of two young schoolboys. The remains of Kobi Mandel and Yossi Ish-Ran, who had played hooky from school to explore a cave, were found on May 9, 2001. The Jerusalem Post clearly placed Katsav’s words in that context:

President Moshe Katsav said yesterday that Israel would never stoop to the brutality the Palestinians displayed in the stoning to death of two Tekoa teenagers this week.

"There is a huge gap between us and our enemies - not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience," Katsav told reporters at Beit Hanassi.

"We would never stoop to the kind of brutality inflicted on the victims in Tekoa and Ofra," he added. "They're our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who don't belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy."

Katsav said Israel must change its approach to the Palestinians, but stopped short of voicing exactly what that new approach should be – although he appeared to imply that retaliation is at times necessary.

"Force is no solution to anything," he said, "but sometimes it's essential."

Referring to the brutal murders of two young boys from Tekoa, Katsav said he is sure there are Palestinians and other Moslems who oppose terrorism, but it was terrifying to realize how much cruelty and hatred the Palestinians harbor against Israelis. (Jerusalem Post, May 11, 2001)

Summary: Misrepresentation of comments by removal of context.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=766

Quintessenz
Exposing False Zionist Quotes II

Exposing False Zionist Quotes II (Quote Busters II)

[...]

MIFTAH (www.miftah.org)

Of the “memorable quotes” featured on MIFTAH’s Web site (some of which have already been debunked in Part I), the following is attributed to one Chairman Heilbrun:

We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.

Source given: Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983

Investigation: The quote is found on numerous anti-Israel sites, in addition to MIFTAH’s, but the facts do not check out. While Shlomo Lahat was indeed re-elected as mayor of Tel Aviv in 1983, no record was found of any “Chairman Heilbrun.” The quote was traced to a 1988 book, The Hidden History of Zionism, by radical Marxist Ralph Schoenman (dismissed by mainstream historians as a crazed conspiracy theorist), and is one of many bogus quotes in the book attributed to Israeli leaders. According to Schoenman’s footnote, the quote by Heilbrun was hearsay relayed to him in private conversations:

Cited by Fouzi El-Asmar and Salih Baransi during discussions with the author, October 1983

Needless to say, Schoenman’s scholarship, upon which many anti-Israel Web sites depend, leaves much wanting. CAMERA contacted former Mayor Lahat who attested that he has never employed, known or heard of any such person as “Chairman Heilbrun,” and that the reported incident never took place. Lahat also emphasized that he would never allow any of his employees to make such statements, as it completely contradicts his own sentiments about Palestinians.

Summary: Fabricated quote, fabricated source

Media Monitors (http://www.mediamonitors.net)

An article archived on the Media Monitors Web site is filled with questionable assertions and bogus quotes (some of which were debunked in Part I.) The following quote (which also appears on the MIFTAH Web site) was attributed to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig, supposedly from his controversial report on Israeli Arabs in Galilee:

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.

Source given: Cited in Lustick, Ian, Arabs in the Jewish State, University of Texas Press, Texas, 1980.

Investigation: Neither the source given (Ian Lustick's Arabs in the Jewish State) nor the actual report itself contains any mention of "terror, assassination, intimidation or land confiscation". 

The Koenig Report or “memorandum” as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry’s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written. It provoked controversy within Israel after being leaked to Al Hamishmar, the publication of Israel’s Marxist party, Mapam. Koenig’s recommendations included expanding and strengthening Israel’s Jewish presence in the Galilee, applying legal consequences to Arabs expressing hostility toward the state and Zionism, enforcing tax collection from the Arab sector, cutting family subsidies to Arabs with large families, eliminating preferential acceptance of Arabs into Israeli universities, channeling Arab students into studying the physical and natural sciences rather than humanities, and encouraging young Arabs to study abroad and emigrate. As controversial as Koenig’s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using "terror," "assassination," "intimidation" or "land confiscations."

Summary: Fabricated quote, false source

[...]

Robert Fisk

According to Fisk’s article:

[Arafat] is chastised by George Bush while his people are bestialised by the Israeli leadership. Rafael Eytan [sic], the former Israeli chief of staff, used to talk of the Palestinians as "cockroaches in a glass jar". Menachem Begin called them “two-legged beasts”…

These quotes appear on numerous anti-Israel Web sites, raising the question of whether Fisk obtained his information on one of the sites that share his agenda. While there is some truth to these quotes, they are either distorted or taken out of context.

Investigation–Example 1: Fisk suggests that Eitan routinely referred to the Palestinians as “cockroaches” He states this as fact, giving no source, but other internet sites refer to an April 13, 1983 article by Gad Becker in the Israeli daily, Yediot Ahronot. This original source of the quote, however, indicates that Eitan’s comment was atypical, made in specific reference to Arab violence. According to Becker, this “uncharacteristic”(as he puts it) and controversial comment was made by outgoing Chief of Staff Eitan during a discussion of how best to deal with Arab violence in the West Bank. In responding to suggestions by Knesset members that the army should stop stone throwers by shooting at their feet or throwing stones back, Eitan reportedly said:

The Arabs will never win over us by throwing stones. Our response must be a nationalist Zionist response. For every stone that’s thrown – we will build ten settlements. If 100 settlements will exist – and they will – between Nablus and Jerusalem, stones will not be thrown. If this will be the situation, then the Arabs will only be able to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle.

Summary: A single (albeit controversial) remark made in a specific context is misrepresented as a generalized, routine slur by an Israeli leader

Investigation–Example 2: Internet hate sites, as well as Fisk, attribute this derogation of Palestnians as “two-legged beasts” to former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. The source generally given is:

Menachem Begin, as quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts,"New Statesman, June 25, 1982

Indeed, the radical French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, did attribute such a quote to Begin in his New Statesman article criticizing Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. The author posited:

For this reason the government has gone to extraordinary lengths to dehumanise the Palestinians. Begin described them in a speech in the Knesset as "beasts walking on two legs".

However, further investigation by CAMERA reveals that the actual speech upon which Kapeliouk based his quote, as well as news reports at the time demonstrate that the journalist distorted the quote, giving it a completely different tone and meaning. Begin was talking, not about "the Palestinians" but about terrorists who target children within Israel.

On June 8, 1982, Begin addressed the Knesset in response to a no-confidence motion over Israel's invasion of Lebanon. He talked about defending the children of Israel, and according to a June 9, 1982 AP report, “his voice quaver[ed] with anger and sadness.” According to the minutes of the session, Begin stated:

The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents.

Kapeliouk neither recanted nor apologized for his deception.

Summary: Distortion by an Israeli critic of a Begin speech discussing terrorism and terrorists.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=775

Quintessenz
Fake Zionist Quotes

Fake Zionist Quotes

Scattered around the Web are numerous pages of "Zionist Quotes" that show Zionism as an evil, racist conspiracy. Many of the quotes are forgeries, hoaxes and inventions. The quotes were fabricated to discredit Israel, Zionism or Jews. not to inform or enlighten anyone. The intent of the doctored quotes may be to "prove" that "Zionism is Racism." and that 'Zionists' planned the transfer of Arabs from Palestine from the start and to demonize Israeli, Zionists and Jews.

[...]

Begin and the Master Race Fake Zionist Quote

This quote was fabricated. Amnon Kapeliouk's New Statesman article does not claim that Menachem Begin ever said it, but has a different fabrication instead:

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves. Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

Fake Zionist Quotes- Ariel Sharon

Ariel Sharon Never Said...

I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger.

This quote was supposedly from an interview with Ouze Merham. There is no such person. There was never such an interview. "Ouze" is not a Hebrew name. Miriam Sobh, a journalism student at the University of Illinois and member of an Islamic extremist group, published the quote in the Illini, the university newspaper. She apologized in April 2003. The quote surfaced again and was debunked by the editors of the Illini in December of 2004. After perpetrating this and other hoaxes, in 2005 Sobh graduated and was working at a Chicago affiliate of NPR. Subsequently she became editor of her own publication which she founded. Appropriately, it is called "Hijabtrendz."

A Camera expose illuminated Sobh's brilliant career as the author of fiction:

The Sharon quote was not the only fabrication. Sobh alleged that former Israeli Chief of Staff, Raphael Eytan was quoted in the April 14, 1983 New York Times as saying: “We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel ... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” However, a Nexis search of all Times coverage reveals that no one, not Eytan or anyone else, was ever quoted by the paper making the purported statement.

... Sobh’s recklessness in misusing sources is longstanding. In one of her first columns for the DI, Sobh wrote that the security barrier Israel is building will separate Palestinians from the water supply and that “they [Palestinians] will eventually be driven to starvation if this wall is completed” (“Modern wall of apartheid” Aug. 28, 2003) [...]

Ariel Sharon was never interviewed by Amoz Oz

Amos Oz published a satiric interview with "Z" in his book, In the Land of Israel, in 1983, a fictitious character who made some bone chilling statements about Palestinian Arabs. A racist newspaper editor in the US "repackaged" this interview with "Z" as an interview with Ariel Sharon, but Amos Oz never interviewed Ariel Sharon, and all the juicy racist statements attributed to Sharon in that interview are inventions of Amos Oz, intended as ironic Zionist satire t against extremists.

Ariel Sharon never said "We control America." The quote was fabricated by the Hamas.

There are a few versions of this fabrication. Here is one:

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.(recorded)

In some versions Sharon supposedly said "I control America." The quote was probably fabricated by the Hamas in 2001.

CAMERA’s investigation found that it started with an October 3, 2001 press release from the pro-Hamas group, IAP – the Islamic Association for Palestine, which attributed the quote to a report on “the Israeli Hebrew radio, Col [sic] Yisrael.”

Kol Yisrael political correspondent Yoni Ben-Menachem, who reports on Cabinet meetings, confirmed to CAMERA that he never made such a broadcast and that Sharon never made such a statement. Nor was it reported by any other news service.

When confronted, Geyer told one editor that she relied on two anonymous Israeli sources for the quotation. She told a second editor the quote came from an alleged Ha’aretz article which she never produced and could not be found. A subsequent editor’s note by Geyer’s United Press Syndicate claimed the quote was widely reported in the Palestinian press (i.e. the IAP, which cited the bogus Kol Yisrael source) but could not be confirmed by independent sources.

See also here

[...]

“Fake Zionist Quotes - Moshe Dayan

Numerous "Zionist quotes" are taken out of context. For example, consider the following which is really monstrous:

"We came to this country .... and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish state there... Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages.....Nahalal arose in the place of Mahalul, Gevat – in the place of Jibra, Sarid – in the place of Haneifs and Kefar Yehosua – in the place of Tell Shaman."
Moshe Dayan

Clever use of ellipses ("....") and omission of the initial sentence and context makes it seem really awful, doesn't it? It can be used by anti-Zionists to justify the idea that Zionism had the purpose of expelling Arabs violently, and did so systematically.

What is the real Zionist quote?

"We came to this country which was already populated by Arabs and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish state there. In considerable areas of the country we bought the lands from the Arabs, Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not know even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exist; not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahalal arose in the place of Mahalul, Gevat – in the place of Jibra, Sarid – in the place of Haneifs and Kefar Yehoshua – in the place of Tell Shaman. There is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.
Moshe Dayan

The "Zionist quote" is from an address at the Technion in April of 1969 See Moshe Dayan Quote Hoax Exposed for an independent discussion of the same hoax and more information about the context.

This was the "great crime" of the Zionist movement 'exposed' by Dayan: "we bought the lands from the Arabs." Certainly it is a major war crime to buy land and only colonialist racists buy land. Isn't that true? There is not one place built in Israel that did not have a former Arab population - some time in history. And there is not one place that did not have a former Jewish population either.

Fake Zionist Quotes - Chaim Weizmann

And here is another in the series of fake Zionist quotes:

Palestine will be as Jewish as England is English - (Chaim Weizmann - quoted in many anti-Zionist Web pages such as www. scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0311/S00121.htm)

What is the real Zionist quote?

"Mr. Lansing, the American Secretary of State, called me over and asked me: 'What do you mean by a Jewish National Home?' That opened the door to us, and Mr. Lansing's intervention rendered us a very great service. I defined the Jewish national home to mean the creation of an administration which would arise out of the national conditions of the country – always safeguarding the interests of non-Jews of the country – with the hope that by Jewish immigration Palestine would ultimately become as Jewish as England is English. (Chaim Weizmann - Trial and Error Page 305)

"always safeguarding the interests of non-Jews of the country" – is omitted from the Zionist quote, and the actual Zionist quote is distorted. Zionism wanted to achieve a democratic Jewish state through immigration, while safeguarding the rights of Arab inhabitants. That was another "crime" of the Zionists, wanting to immigrate to the land of Israel.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/fake_zionist_quotes.htm

Quintessenz
Fake zionist quotes

Fake zionist quotes

Fake zionist quotes 1: Ben Gurion and the german children (1938)

The fundamental aim of the Zionists was not to save Jewish lives but to create a Jewish state in Palestine. Ben Gurion, Israel’s first head of State, declared outright to the “Labor” Zionists on December 7th 1938 : “If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel.” (Source)

This quote is frequently used by anti-semites on the internet. You can see what the quote aims at. It wants to create the impression that the zionists in Palestine did not care about the victims of the Holocaust.

In this case the quote by Ben Gurion has already been exposed as false and Camera.org has written about it:

*****

Ben Gurion and the Holocaust

• One of the particularly offensive canards long bandied about by so-called “post-Zionists” and anti-Zionist radicals is that Zionists collaborated with the Nazis to promote immigration to Palestine against overall Jewish interests and the survival of European Jews. Citing Lenni Brenner’s Zionists in the Age of the Dictators — which has been thoroughly discredited as an unscholarly combination of fabrication, exaggeration and quotations distorted through lack of context (Walter Laqueur, “The Anti-Zionism of Fools,” The New Republic, Nov. 1, 1987) — Ignatiev attempts to promote this disproved claim. He thus quotes Ben Gurion to support his allegation that the Israeli leader “attach[ed] more importance to the establishment of Israel than to the survival of the Jews,” collaborating with the Nazis to achieve this goal. The statement, as quoted by Ignatiev (via Brenner who, in turn, cites Yoav Gelber) is:

If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half by transporting to Eretz Yisrael [the Land of Israel], then I would opt for the second alternative. For we must weigh not only the life of these children, but also the history of the People of Israel.

By cherry-picking a single comment, removing it from its context, and ignoring other comments made by Ben Gurion that directly contradict this interpretation, the author distorts history.

The Ben Gurion quote is taken from comments he made to Mapai’s central committee on December 7, 1938. This followed Britain’s decision to deny entrance into Palestine of 10,000 German Jewish orphans in the wake of Kristallnacht, instead offering them asylum within Great Britain. It was almost a year before the Nazis launched World War II and several years before the Final Solution (to annihilate the Jews) was methodically implemented. While Ben Gurion believed that Germany’s anti-Jewish policies would necessitate creating a safe haven for numerous Jewish refugees that no other country was willing to accept, he had no way of predicting the enormity of what was to follow.

The British offer to accept several thousand children appeared to be a gesture of conscience allowing Britain to close the doors of Palestine — not only to those German orphans, but to future refugees as well. Ben Gurion had recently witnessed the results of the international Evian conference, which had been convened in July 1938 to address the growing Jewish refugee problem, and knew that other countries were also unwilling to accept hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees. He believed that only a Jewish homeland would be able to properly absorb these Jews. Thus Ben Gurion stated that “our concern is not only the personal interest of these children, but the historic interest of the Jewish people” (translation from the stenographic records by Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion and the Holocaust, Harcourt Brace & Co. 1996, p. 47).

According to the records of the Mapai meeting, Yitzchak Ben Zvi immediately clarified Ben Gurion’s brusque remark, explaining “ten thousand children are a small part of Germany’s [Jewish] children…They [the British] don’t intend to save Germany’s Jews, and certainly not all of them. The moment the Jewish State Plan [the Peel plan] was shelved, the possibility of complete rescue of Germany’s Jews was shelved with it.” (ibid. p. 48)

There is ample evidence — ignored by Ignatiev — that Ben Gurion viewed the rescue of Jews as paramount. As early as 1936, Ben Gurion told Palestine’s high commissioner, Sir Arthur Wauchope, that “had there been the possiblity of bringing Poland’s Jews to the United States or Argentina, we would have done so regardless of our Zionist beliefs. But the world was closed to us. And had there also not been room for us in Palestine, our people would have had only one way out: to commit suicide” (Ben Gurion,Memoirs, p.3:105, cited in Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion and the Holocaust, pp xlix, 110). And in November 1941, Ben Gurion argued that “the supremely important thing now is salvage, and nation-building is incidental” (Teveth, ibid. p.xlviii).

It was only in November 1942 that the Yishuv became aware of the systematic slaughter of Jews. The Zionist leadership established a rescue committee and raised hundreds of thousands of pounds for the rescue mission. Ben Gurion made his priorities clear at a September 1943 fund-raising meeting of the Mobilization and Rescue Appeal in Jerusalem where he hailed the Allies’ invasion of Europe for “first of all, and foremost, the saving of Jews, then the saving of the Yishuv, and finally and thirdly the saving of Zionism” (cited in Teveth, p. 143). He emphasized the importance of funding the rescue mission, saying:

We must do whatever is humanly possible…to extend material aid to those working on rescue operations in order to save [those who] can still be saved, to delay the calamity as far as it can be delayed. [And we must] do it immediately, to the best of our ability. I hesitate to say – since the matter is so serious – that we shall do our utmost; we are flesh and blood and cannot do the maximum, but we shall do what we can. (quoted in Friling, Tuvia, Arrows in the Dark, University of Wisconsin Press 2003)

http://liberology.wordpress.com/category/fake-zionist-quotes/

Bland1900
Exposing False Zionist Quotes

Thank you very much, Quintessenz, for all the time and effort you put in to reveal these truths.

pax
what about....
Bland1900
what about....

Pax, I'd cheer, too, if my people's armed forces retaliated against (missiles, bombing, acts of terror, etc.) an aggressor such as the terrorists, known as Hamas (2nd and 3rd video). The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist. ....As far as the first video, that you listed, it is gibberish, to me. ......Quintessenz has been more than articulate, here (if you took the time to actually read it). You have no argument.

pax
are you SERIOUS????

THAT is what you took from the 2nd and 3rd video?
are you really fucking serious?
Bustabear you are fucking WARPED...
As i said before... Iron Dome hits 90% of the home made missiles fired
40-60% of the rest fail to hit the target due to them being.. home made and shitty(and this from official Israeli govt sources)
And of those that actually got anywhere.. 3 people... yeah... 3 Israelis die and a couple(literally) of others.
are you saying that justifies a MASSIVE.. no... GARGANTUAN, cosmic over-reaction, so out of proportion it's unreal.
mind you some pictures can speak a thousand words and
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/6641
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/10/31/gordon-duff-bombs-terrorism-and-...

the REAL shocker is that you think that it's absolutely FINE with regards to what they say and what they are doing... watching a massacre like a recreational sport FFS and cheering on the death and destruction??? that's ok is it?

As i have said before... I will stand with you when it comes to the shoah.. but this.......NO FUCKING CHANCE.. IT'S PLAIN WRONG
what is that Mossad motto...
""By Way Of Deception Thou Shalt Do War."
and don't they just.. and by the looks of it you are complicit in this with your utter disregard for the gravity of what those people are saying AND DOING

Bland1900
Justice

Even if the "Iron Dome" was 99% effective, the one (1) rocket, that penetrates, is one (1) too many. You, ignorantly, describe Hamas' deadly missiles as "homemade" (or "bottle rockets"). Bullshit! A launched missile is an act of war! (Your Pallywood, photo-shopped image doesn't impress me.) And, who is "Bustabear"? ..... And yes, I'd cheer my ass off, if my people's armed forces retaliated against the one (1) that got through and maimed or killed one or more of my people. Do you think this is an f'n game? Just because Israel is stronger, does not mean they should sit on their hands and do nothing, when attacked? To cure the situation, one must cut out all the cancer. If this is not done intensely enough, the cancer could grow back and create future sorrow. .....And, finally: If Hamas was "bombed back to the Stone Age", I'd lead a God damned victory parade!

EWS
"Star of David" photo

Check the origin of that "Star of David" photo - you will find it was taken at an anti-terrorist training course in the USA.
Some of the participants dressed up as "terrorists" and others as "anti-terrorist security forces".

pax
Bustabear is Quintessenz you

Bustabear is Quintessenz you muppet and fine well you know it.
The source of the info on iron dome's effectiveness is the Israel;i military spokesmen, he's also the one who mentioned the disintegration rate of the hamas rockets.(here and I'll find the newspaper article with the quote about the rest of the missiles later, i am about to go fix a machine)
So you say you cheers for all this? jusy shows what a silly little prick you are... I bet you have NEVER been there(Israel/Gaza) and have NEVER been a soldier on active service and actually seen war first hand... as shit like you SPEW is only said with the bravery of being out of range.
I on the other hand have been in wars and frankly they are not very nice to put it mildly and I drove ambulances in Gaza.
You are a silly little moron, a cheer leader for death as long as you don't have to do anything but sit yer fat ass in an armchair... nice and comfy.
whyen are you going to realise that YOU are the cancer wi9th shit spweing like that.. as i said.. thousands of miles away from the action... OUT OF RANGE.
I don't think it's a game. I'VE FUCKING BEEN THERE... unlike you you stupid bastard..
seeing children unable to get full and proper medical treatment, seeing children bombed,shot and multilated by bombardment is NOT FUN AND NOT A GAME.
Are you so blatantly fucking moronically and monumentally batshit supid that you think that if you bomb the shit out of people they will back down and acquiesce???? if so then you are fucking stupid.....
Did that work in... oh let's say Vietnam???.. erm... nope
Nopes.. all it does it piss off more of the people in the areas being bombed and through the loss of their land and loved ones ... IT WILL BREED MORE PEOPLE WILLING TO TAKE A STAND.
You have a very kind of STUPID... it's an apocalyptic type of stupid....
BTW those missiless while not bottle rockets are actually "home made"... that' is an actual fact
here they are.. The Qassam rocket.. pictures courtesy of the Israeli defence force btw...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket
yeah.. real high tech.. the height of technical excellence... I think not.
but baying for the death and destruction of the entire Palestinian people...... that makes you a pathetic sick fuck... there are nearly 2 million people there(- 2014 estimate 1,816,379 - Density 5046/km2 -13,069.1/sq mi) and you think it's just fine and dandy to bomb them into non-existance? so they are all Hamas as far as you are concerned?????
you are a dick.. plain and simple.....

Bland1900
Pax's twisted bullshit

Pax, Mr. Insulter, You seem incapable of any rational discussion. No facts (worth mentioning), just more Bullshit, twisting things to suit your purpose, and a barrage of name-calling. (I think your brain is on vacation.) ....I feel terrible for the Palestinian people. They should rise up and destroy Hamas (before Hamas destroys what's left of them). This is the only way they will ever see peace. If they (Palestinian civilians) cannot do the job, then Israel will have to do it for them. ....You must be insane to equate the situation in Gaza with Vietnam (Apples and Grapes). You are so pathetically, emotionally engrossed that you cannot see the situation in Gaza rationally. (You believe that it is a "David and Goliath" thing and, David HAS to win, even if Goliath is only protecting himself and his family, after a brutal attack by David.) You will never prove to me (or anyone who is not a "Jew hater") that Hamas is the sweet, innocent virgin that you describe. Hamas are cowards, hiding behind women and children, firing missiles from schools, hospitals and mosques. They move weapons around in ambulances. (Did you move arms for Hamas in Gaza?) .....I feel terrible for children on both sides of any conflict and morn for the deaths of ANY innocent civilians. So, Pax (Mr. emotional, name-caller), stop "parroting the mainstream" bullshit. (You would have us believe that all Palestinians are Hamas.) Look deeply into the reality of the situation (if you're capable) and understand that Hamas IS the aggressor, here. Perhaps if and/or when you see the truth, you will cheer for Hamas' demise, as well. [Hamas = terrorists; The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist, it really is as simple as that.] ....If Hamas laid down their arms, today, there would be peace in Gaza. If Israel laid down their arms, today, there would be no Israel, by tomorrow! Wake up.

pax
contradictions.....

You feel terrible for them but want to hem bombed in to the stone age?
Get a grip you tit

Bland1900
No Comprehension

Pax, You seem to have a fundamental learning disability (no comprehension). Go back to the beginning of this thread and read the words that were written, not the words you think might be there. You've misinterpreted or twisted everything written here, so far. ....Can't stop the name-calling, can you? It does lower your credibility.

pax
LOL... and the hasbara

LOL... and the hasbara bollocks you spout does so much for yours?????
what you might perhaps forget or even not know... i am a Scotsman and typically of Scotsman i am BLUNT..
when we say it we mean it and we don't guild the lilly.
In fact Scotland, as far as i know is the only place on Earth where being called a c*nt isn't always a bad thing..LOL
to quote an of said phrase "aye he might be a c*nt, but he's our c*nt, a good c*nt".... i shit you not... in this instance c*nt means "person".. Scotland the place where terms of deep abuse become terms of endearment..LOL.. have a look
on you go a try to play the "reasonable guy"
.. NO reasonable person writes this

Even if the "Iron Dome" was 99% effective, the one (1) rocket, that penetrates, is one (1) too many. You, ignorantly, describe Hamas' deadly missiles as "homemade" (or "bottle rockets"). Bullshit! A launched missile is an act of war! (Your Pallywood, photo-shopped image doesn't impress me.) And, who is "Bustabear"? ..... And yes, I'd cheer my ass off, if my people's armed forces retaliated against the one (1) that got through and maimed or killed one or more of my people. Do you think this is an f'n game? Just because Israel is stronger, does not mean they should sit on their hands and do nothing, when attacked? To cure the situation, one must cut out all the cancer. If this is not done intensely enough, the cancer could grow back and create future sorrow. .....And, finally: If Hamas was "bombed back to the Stone Age", I'd lead a God damned victory parade!

cheering the deaths of women and children as that's what you are doing.. ..
The blanket bombardment used by the IDF isn't exactly what you might call strikes with surgical precision and the "collateral damage" is MASSIVE.. and yet you say you'd cheer....
yes... very very reasonable of you... i think not
bombing hamas into the stone age..... well to do that you'd have to bomb the whole of the Gaza strip into the stone age... as those strikes are blanket bombardment and not "surgical precision strikes"...
BTW tbh surgical precision strikes often don't work very surgically.. I can tell you that from experience as a soldier....
So as we see from the death toll and figures arising from them..... to do what YOU want would kill the entire population and you'd be fine and dandy with that.
that makes you most worthy of the derogatory phrases i have used to my mind.
Hamas are twats.. i do grant you that, as i have said before..... they are total cocks however... look at the death toll on both sides and tell me WHO the aggressor is?
THOUSANDS verses...... 4 civilians. And remember the Palestinian death toll... for which you are admitted cheer leader is rising as many of the injured will be getting palliative care (or what passes for it there )as due to restrictions of things allowed to go into Gaza.. that's about all they'll be able to do for a fair few of them and again.. i say this from experience ,having actually been there thankfully not at the moment as ambulance staff are being targeted now
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/088E7C424B63CC19852571EA00536864
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/gaza-new-evidence-deliberate-at...
and the Israelis call it "mowing the lawn".. which they do regularly every few years.
This doesn't fix anything and only exacerbates things immeasurably..... all it does it make people MORE pissed off at Israel and creates more people willing to take a violent stand.
however time for me to grab food and then get my ass to bed.. work tomorrow early doors
this from the UN site

GAZA CITY - An Israeli air strike hit a house in central Gaza before dawn on Saturday killing five family members, including two women and two children, Palestinian medics said.

Emergency services initially said three people were killed and five wounded, but later announced that two people had died of their injuries after the raid in Al-Zawayda near the Nusseirat refugee camp.

The air raid hit a family home, witnesses and medics said.

Doctors at the Al-Aqsa Hospital in Deir al-Balah said the five dead all came from the same family -- a 28-year-old father, his 26-year-old wife and their two boys aged three and four.

The father's 45-year-old aunt was also killed, they said.

The Israeli military said it had carried out around 20 air strikes over the Gaza Strip early on Saturday and that three rockets or mortar rounds had hit southern Israel near the border with Gaza.

Hostilities in the six-week war between Israel and Gaza's Islamist de facto rulers Hamas resumed on Tuesday as Egyptian-brokered truce talks collapsed.

Emergency services say 81 people have died in the Palestinian enclave since then. On Friday, an Israeli child was killed and seven other people wounded, one of them critically, by mortar and rocket fire from Gaza.

At least 2,097 Palestinians have been killed since July 8, 70 percent of them civilians, according to the United Nations.

There have also been 68 people killed on the Israeli side, all but four of them soldiers.

the bold is what you are cheerleading for.
yeah they fire rockets etc... the rockets as the photo from the IDF itself shows.. they are quite shitty unguided rockets and craptastic mortars...
I am not saying they are spiffing characters for firing them not at all... the response though has been outrageously disproportionate and the collateral damage is fucking astonishingly mental.
but you cheer it on.. and want them bombed into the stone age.. yeah... what a reasonable chappy eh? ....fannybawz

Bland1900
fannybawz ?

You said, "bombing hamas into the stone age..... well to do that you'd have to bomb the whole of the Gaza strip into the stone age". Do you want me (us) to believe that all residents of Gaza are Hamas? ......As far as the death toll goes, if Israel wanted to kill more, they easily could. They are bombing the terrorist's military targets as surgically as possible, even warning ahead of time, when and where they will bomb. If the cowardly Hamas terrorists didn't use women and children as "shields", there would be far less casualties. (Was the family of five that was bombed sitting at a missile site? Or, in other words, did Hamas set up shop at these folks home, to use them as a shield?) ...Of course, Israel wouldn't be forced to retaliate, if Hamas would stop their aggression. Period. It is all up to Hamas to stop the terrorizing. That's just common sense. .....And, let me get this straight. If I called you a C*nt, you'd accept that as a "term of endearment"? (Keep working on your comprehension skills, I think it's kinda working.)

pax
late..! been very busy

been busy with the work and referendum campaigning on Saturday and campaigning today.

You said, "bombing hamas into the stone age..... well to do that you'd have to bomb the whole of the Gaza strip into the stone age". Do you want me (us) to believe that all residents of Gaza are Hamas?

no that's a fucking rediculous notion.
As i said "surgical strikes" are not as surgical as you may think as i said before. The collateral damage is already quite massive and to do what you want would basically involve bombing the whole of Gaza.... get a grip .As i said before i KNOW from personal experience in a few hot zones round the world as a soldier.. surgical strikes..lol surgical my ass.
If they actually wanted to be "surgical" and only take out the Hamas people.... that's a job to send in infantry and clear houses which doesn't lead to massacres on the scale we have witnessed... Missiles are not surgical,mortars are not surgical,tank bombardment is not surgical,naval bombardment is not surgical, air strikes are not surgical.. they all have a MUCH larger area of effect thus killing innocent people...

As far as the death toll goes, if Israel wanted to kill more, they easily could.

and that makes the deaths of the women,children, old aged and non combatants all ok then?

They are bombing the terrorist's military targets as surgically as possible, even warning ahead of time, when and where they will bomb.

oh yeah... 4-6 minutes warning is plenty of time you moron.....
you ever tried to get yer family with children or aged people clear from an area about to be bombed flat???
once again... get a grip.. it's hardly gracious and the warning is nothing more than P.R and you fucking know it. They also don't issue them every strike.

If the cowardly Hamas terrorists didn't use women and children as "shields", there would be far less casualties.

really??? because the IDF/Israeli Govt uses the term "mowing the lawn" for this for a reason.. they do it regularly and all it does it breed more resentment and strife.

(Was the family of five that was bombed sitting at a missile site? Or, in other words, did Hamas set up shop at these folks home, to use them as a shield?)

wow you really are quite a prick to be frank...you show absolutely NO compassion for a family wiped out and merely attempt to excuse their executioners... what a spiffing fellow......

Of course, Israel wouldn't be forced to retaliate, if Hamas would stop their aggression. Period.

because as we know the israelis are all peace ,love and light!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vttr3YC-X4 and http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-im-on-the-brink-of-burning-my-is... maybe not then ..
oh and the Times of Israel has a piece of when genocide is accaptable.. since removed but with the net being what it is...
http://www.sott.net/article/283461-Genocide-is-permissible-muses-Times-o... full article HERE

add to that these
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x21rwe1_israelis-cheering-during-airstr... charmingly peaceful
http://youtu.be/TkCBK4-5tRI can't you just feel the love?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x21ivtz_israeli-lynch-mob-hunting-for-a... nope.. no hatred here at all!
so from their parliament down they are baying for blood it seems and genocide....

And, let me get this straight. If I called you a C*nt, you'd accept that as a "term of endearment"? (Keep working on your comprehension skills, I think it's kinda working.)

It's all about who says it and the context.. it's blatantly obvious that from what i said before YOU don't get it at all...
MY comprehension skills are just fine and dandy thanks..... I can comprehend that what Israel is doing, what many of them OPENLY state they want(genocide of Palestinians" and they even watch the bombardments FOR PLEASURE... I comprehend that is not decent or acceptable.
Neither do I excuse Hamas for being turds...
In case you haven't realised it... the original agreement was for two states.. understandably the Palestinians who actually LIVED there were not happy about having half their land taken away... would YOU? Thus the perpetuation of this nicely prevents a deal as the Israeli land grab progressed over the years keeps that solution out of touch and keeps this mess going.
I had to laugh though at your dismissal of the picture of the [sarcasm]mighty professionally made missiles that Hamas are using[/sarcasm].. those pictures are from the Israeli defence force and posted as such.. do those fucking tin can pieces of shit look anything resembling a quality piece of kit? Qassam missiles are not even guided....they are the missile equivalent of what snooker/billiards and pool players call "hit and hope" ,FPS gamers call "spray and pray"... and iron dome takes out 90% according to official Israeli sources another. of the remaining 40-60 either disintegrate or hit desert....
Look at the sheer imbalances of forces and the astonishing disregard for collateral damage of a mind-blowingly disproportionate response....
Now.. we come to "fannybawz"....
two words folded neatly into one...
Fanny - which in Scotland means the female genitals
Bawz - which is Scots slang for balls
when conjoined "fannybawz"
This refers to what legendary Scots comedian Frankie Boyle called a "ball vagina".. you know when i guy were trousers and they are tight and it looks like a camel toe in the testicular area? that's fannybawz...
basically it questions your manhood to the extent even yer nads look like a vagina LOL
not complimentary unless between friends.. it has been known for "howz it gaun fannybawz?"(how is it going fannybawz?" as a greeting between friends.
we though are not friends :)
However you might call me a c*nt.. but i'm a good c*nt LOL bear in mind though

Bland1900
Hamas is the problem

Obviously, your perception of the "war" is much different from mine. Your comprehension of what I am saying is lacking, quite a bit. ....Would you have Israel just sit around and take the missile attacks and suicide bombings, etc.? Should the Israelis do nothing until Hamas gets what is stated in their "charter" (the total annihilation of Israel)? What would you do if you were an Israeli and your people were threatened with extinction? (Would your Jewish Grandparents be proud of your stance? ...or ashamed? Also, you never mention any of the Israeli women, children and other civilian casualties.) .....You think that you are "blunt"? Looks like we, in the Boston, Massachusetts, U. S. of A. area are far more blunt. Growing up, name calling, here, could have been met with serious violence. (About 45 years ago, I witnessed a stabbing, just because the kid with the knife was called a pussy.) Fortunately, I've aged and in my old age, I believe, tempered my form of Bullshit. (Like I said, previously, you'd have some credibility if you refrained from the name-calling and other foolishness.) .....I know that you have "the blinders" on, with the State of Israel. Perhaps you won't be satisfied, until all of Israel and it's inhabitants are wiped off the map and the Hamas flag flies over what is now, Israel? ....Much of the video and articles you refer to is merely "Pallywood" (deliberate propaganda, by Hamas, by photo-shop, lying, deceptive practices, etc. to achieve their cowardly, murderous agenda). (BTW, The article on genocide was very interesting. Even though I, personally, don't condone genocide, the author made some pretty good points and a somewhat convincing argument, for genocide.) .....No matter how much you twist reality, Hamas is the problem. Period! Until the cancer, known as Hamas, is removed, totally, there will be war. As the old saying goes, "All's fair in love and war". If a "disproportionate" use of force is necessary to stop Hamas, that's the way it has to be.

nofunclub
in my 1959 world atlas

in my 1959 world atlas
there is no Israel
it is called PALESTINE

it does include the map of the 12 Tribes though

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HKh2ECoPpyY/VBbtujjDrqI/AAAAAAAABLw/e...

Bland1900
Palestine ?

Long before 1959, Israel had been established and Jordan had already stolen the Palestinian's portion of the 1947 land deal. The current (2014) Palestinian Atlas of the area shows no Israel, only Palestine.

pax
ROFL

Obviously, your perception of the "war" is much different from mine.

having served in the 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment and served in many war zones..... I think i know a fuckload more about it than you do.

Would your Jewish Grandparents be proud of your stance? ...or ashamed?

My Grandparents was bewildered at the set up of an Israeli state and WERE AGAINST IT... ther was peace for hundreds of years (bar a very few huccups)till Israel got set up... also that was the shittest attempt at a guilt trip in the history of guilt trips.. my 8 year old boy is better at them!

Growing up, name calling, here, could have been met with serious violence.

LOL
you've never been to or know much about Scotland do you?
unlike most countries.. we don't use guns.. some pussies use knives.. we prefer mark one fists and we do regularly without fear of some pussy litigating..
Why not come over and try some time... please let me be there to film it... it'd be a fucking youtube spectacular!

I know that you have "the blinders" on, with the State of Israel.

Yes me Pot.. or is it Mt Kettle?

Much of the video and articles you refer to is merely "Pallywood"

bollocks :)

No matter how much you twist reality

Yes me Pot.. or is it Mt Kettle?

As the old saying goes, "All's fair in love and war"

erm.. Geneva convention and all those other Laws of war.. so that's wrong me laddo

If a "disproportionate" use of force is necessary to stop Hamas, that's the way it has to be.

yet more bollocks.... listen little mr idf fanboi .. if ANY other country pulled this shit there would be more than a massive outcry.
So please drop the bollocks.. of you dropped plenty already (that's a pun btw however don'yt expect you to get it which makes it more fun for me.. petty... absolutely but funny none-the-less)..lol

Bland1900
'Round 'n' 'round - getting nowhere, fast

You stated, "having served in the 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment and served in many war zones..... I think i know a fuckload more about it than you do." - You have no idea where I may or may not have served. I don't believe that anyone is impressed with your "warrior" nonsense. .......You never answered what you would do if you were attacked by Hamas. All I get is "bollocks", innuendo, and attempted insults from you. .....The only relevant question to you is, "Does Israel have the right to exist?"

pax
ok then...

You have no idea where I may or may not have served.

ok then... what branch of the services did you serve and what unit???

I don't believe that anyone is impressed with your "warrior" nonsense

it's not nonsense it's service and life experience in the military with what is widely regarded as one of the world's finest regiments...

You never answered what you would do if you were attacked by Hamas

There has only ever been one attempted attack in Scotland and ordinary people in the street literally kicked the shit out of the attackers using mark one fists and feet.. no guns,bombs etc needed... that's Scotland for you.
Also Scotland has a very successfully integrated range of cultures. There are some problems however they are few are far between.

All I get is "bollocks", innuendo, and attempted insults from you

well i would say you get out what you put in however i haven't been a purveyor of bollocks.

The only relevant question to you is, "Does Israel have the right to exist?"

Well my grandparents found the notions to be awful and to use my grandfathers words "destructive and ill thought out"
As i stated on the old forums i find myself in a strange place with reference to Israel in that i feel for both sides to an extent however i am utterly disgusted by some of the shit both sides pull.
Israel however in these attacks has a tendency or should i said standard operating procedure to respond massively disproportionately .
Also the rising right in Israel which are doing exactly what the israeli Hasbara machine persistently accuse hamas of... call for genocide, is shocking... and this from their senior parliamentarians down as i shown in those earlier posts if you had actually cared to look at the links and the videos, even if you disregard the ones taken by Palestinians you cannot ignore the ones from reports by Western news crews showing that girl saying that Gaza should be flattened and all the Palestinians killed as did a couple of Israeli politicians , one of them being VERY senior and the video taken by Israelis of them hunting Arabs for fun.
I am perfectly aware you could say the same of hamas however Israel cannot use the "they want us all to die" rhetoric if they are being the same.
In essence i think that if Israel honoured the two state solution as was originally agreed upon then that could work however they don't want it to work... they want to shunt the Palestinians into the Sinai.
Both sides should have a place to call "home" without fear of someone next door doing anything nasty but when it comes to scale, israel is doing FAR more nasty and becoming ever more extreme right wing as the populace drink the hasbara kool-aid and become more and more racist which i find utterly repugnant especially when they directly accuse the other side of the same.. pot kettle scenario.

So.. what branch of service and unit were you in???
my guess i you weren't and if you were it was a 100% REMF role ..lol

Bland1900
Ho hum

Dancing around the subject is all you can do. You'd make out well in the U.S., as a politician (speaking buckets of words without saying anything). Two simple questions, no answers. [Your answers are irrelevant, anyhow, because your Bullshit speaks volumes.] ....Enjoy your situation (you are making it a career) as a Hamas apologist and Pallywood propagandist. You have never condemned the terrorism, barbarism, and ruthless murder that is Hamas. (insert head banging against wall icon)

pax
actually i did

condemn it and referred to them with various non complimentary words.
Ad i did answer your question about Israel, very precisely

You'd make out well in the U.S

I actually do not bad with regular jaunts across the pond to DJ ;) usually every two years however I'll be back next year after having been this year.
While I am engaged in the political process here in Scotland i have neither the inclination nor wish to be a politician.
I am not an apologist for Hamas, as i said they are dicks.
You seem to not be getting the fact I feel empathy and sympathy for the heinous situation the Palestinians find themselves in as would anyone with a gram of humanity. and when i say Palestinians i mean the ordinary people who are being slaughtered wholesale by the IDF .
Not only do you NOT condem the wholesale slaughter of innocent women,.children, elderly and non combatants .. you gladly cheer it on and make dumbass excuses... so tell me.. who is the apologist??
I also note you completely disregard the Western news footage... how handy yah muppet...LOL or are western journos and news crews "pallywood" too?
oh btw I note you never answered what branch of service and unit you were part of...... most likely as you weren't in one or as i said, a REMF.
inserting appropriate pictures with reference to you

and

:)

Bland1900
Good lookin' animal

My service record is neither relevant, here, nor any of your business. Your round about Bullshit is tiring. (Nothing to add, but childish innuendo and insults.) One cannot converse (or debate) with someone who avoids the real issues and ignores hard facts, while name-calling and attempting to irritate and/or insult.

pax
when you bring it up...

You have no idea where I may or may not have served

then you get called on it..... then yeah it's relevant... to try to avpid avoid avoid just makes you look like a bullshitter.
Innuendo.... nopes what i said was blatant :)

One cannot converse (or debate) with someone who avoids the real issues and ignores hard facts

aaaaaw.. you mean you cannot debate with someone who won't buy YOUR bullshit

while name-calling and attempting to irritate and/or insult.

yeah and you never have nor did you try a pathetic attempt to guilt trip me about my grandparents in pathetic fashion. shocker to you that my grandfather especially was genuinely mystified and horrified by the lands being stolen as he put it.
you are not a very robust debater bland.. seriously not very robust indeed and i think you are full of shit when it comes to serving in anything.
Back to your service record, as i said IF YOU BRING IT UP AND INFER YOU WERE THEN IT IS RELEVANT and my bet is that you either never served or were a rear echelon type(REMF) or ... perhaps a reservist who never went out his own state... most probably though you never served.
what's hilarious is that when we were both arguing against those who denied the Shoah you were 100% behind the way i post however when it's debating you..... different story eh?
So tell me about this service record.. what branch of the service and what unit or.. forever be considered LYING

Bland1900
Pax, you are acting childish

Finally got a picture of you. (Thought you'd be in camos, Mr. Warrior, not dress slacks and tie.) Bullshit, name-calling, insults, silly pictures and avoiding (or changing) the subject is all you've got. .....I have not discussed my service record with anyone in better than 40 years. Because you're interested in it, makes withholding it so much sweeter (petty, to parrot you). ......Lying? Not in the least. I may be a lot of things, but a liar is not one of them. (And, I don't give a damn what you think - one way or the other.) .....Guilt trip (or not), if your grandparents actually were Jewish, I'm sure they would be disappointed in (and/or ashamed with) you for siding with terrorists. In fact, terrorists that are Hellbent on killing all the Jews, in Israel. I know many Jews. They've been my neighbors and friends, all of my life. All of them stand with Israel. 100%. (Not like the Pallywood actors, portrayed in your links) ....And yes, I've backed you up, in the past. I'd back you up, in the future; When you are correct, I'll always back you (regardless of your method). In fact, I agree with much of what you write in other threads. Unfortunately, you are very wrong about Gaza, and your method to try to convince me (that you are right) borders the ridiculous. At this point, you do look quite foolish. [see picture, above.] .....Quintessenz articulately exposed the false quotes attributed to Zionism. That is what this thread is all about. Have you nothing to say about this subject?

pax
hmmmm

f your grandparents actually were Jewish, I'm sure they would be disappointed in (and/or ashamed with) you for siding with terrorists

Erm.. They were indeed and they,especially my grandfather, were the ones whose opinions on israel helped form mine from their experiences.
I have NEVER said anything that resembles me "iding with terrorists"... I have sided with the ordinary people of Palastine and straight out said hamas are dicks.......

(Not like the Pallywood actors, portrayed in your links)

hmmm even the western news crews?? now you are being an idiot to be quite frank.
First you lump in the ordinary people of Palestine with Hamas as terrorists in saying the above from what i have stated previously.... i made a distinction between the two at all times... you seem not to.

Finally got a picture of you. (Thought you'd be in camos, Mr. Warrior, not dress slacks and tie.)

I haven't worn a uniform in a few months short of 20 years... i only wear suits for weddings,funerals and formal occasions they are usually though of the kilted variety with few exceptions :)

I know many Jews. They've been my neighbors and friends, all of my life. All of them stand with Israel. 100%

I am related to loads and most of them are not Zionists... funny old world eh?
What amazes me to be honest is that you fail to genuinely make a distinctions between the ordinary people of Palestine and Hamas, and your justifications, to be honest i find lamer than a legless duck.
Also your refusal to recognise that Israeli society is moving EVER right to the extreme where the above quoted parliamentarians,news papers etc can make extremely racist and facist statements and garner popular support from them as we witnessed in the Western news crews report where the girls outright says she is "a little bit fascist"... your failrure to recognise that a video MADE BY ISRAELIS of them out hunting Arabs, primarily taxis drivers as many Arabs drive taxis in Israel...
The calls for Genocide from the Parliament down and senior parliamentarians at that in a few cases..... all fine eh?
What is happening there is utterly racist and fascist behaviour and it's becoming more common place every day..... but that's all fine and dandy according to you and just because Hamas are dicks... and they are DICKS, makes it fine to ethnically cleanse Palestinians... because that's what is being called for from the Knesset down to much of the Israeli population is Israel.
Even CBS 60 minutes exposed Israeli apartheid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLKWz29SLgo
Jimmy Carter says so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xscq2nIKLHM
here's a documentary by a Jewish American woman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIyJpW4F_1M
and Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa and if ANYONE can recognise apartheid he can
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzey6qg2lMA
a look inside the Knesset
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbFj2a8dmNo
Renowned journalist Jonathan Cook and top Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard on apartheid & Israel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJX1rPFGZQc
MSNBC shows a Rabbi that says... children are not civilians!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0JjxqTVRBo
Secular talk discusses it and mentions the calls from parliamentarians for genocide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsG32fkm6sE
Israeli politician calls for concentration camps..... the guy from secular talk makes some fine points
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvGUHyTJ7A8
but according to you this is all fine and dandy????
edit to add.. I am off on the campaign trail till later this evening so any response will be a while from me

Bland1900
Israel has a right to exist

Israel has the fundamental right to exist, without the plague of terrorism. A "civilian" becomes a terrorist when they aid any terrorists. The civilian non-combatants should rise up and destroy Hamas and ALL the other radical Muslim terrorists in Gaza. When a "civilian" allows rockets to be launched (or stored) in their home, they become one with the terrorists. If any "civilians" turn a blind eye to this Bullshit, they are no better than the terrorists that they condone. Once this occurs, these folks are no longer innocent. (I have always felt empathy for innocent Palestinian civilians. Unfortunately, in war, there can be collateral damage.) ....I feel terrible for the innocent Israeli civilians, maimed or killed by the radical Muslim terrorists. There is no excuse for Hamas or anyone else to launch unguided missiles into a civilian population. .....You link to the "guy from secular talk". Why? This anti-Semite Nazi has no credibility. See: http://mystic-voice.blogspot.com/2014/07/kylekulinski-outs-self-as-anti-... ....I'll tell you what would be "fine and dandy". Fine and dandy would be if Hamas stopped their cowardly, murderous attacks. For without these acts of terrorism, Israel would not be forced to retaliate. Until this is reality, I wish the best to the IDF and hope they can crush Hamas, quickly and with extreme prejudice. Hamas drew "first blood", therefor Hamas must be punished (or eliminated/exterminated, if they will not stop their aggression).

Bland1900
War is war: Why I stand with Israel - Tom Doran [11 July 2014]

War is war: Why I stand with Israel

There are serious concerns to be raised about Israel's policies, but when Hamas declares war, it must be able to defend itself.

As a liberal Zionist, certain statements are expected from me at times like this, so let's get it out of the way:

1. The kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers was an abominable crime.

2. So was the kidnap and murder of a Palestinian teenager.

3. Palestinians have a right to a state of their own, secure in its own borders,

4. But so does Israel.

5. Hamas is a wholly malevolent organization who would be recognized as neo-Nazis if they happened to be white Christians.

6. The Israeli government, whatever my disagreements with it, is still a liberal democracy doing its best under highly adverse circumstances.

7. This doesn't mean that every innocent Palestinian killed isn't a tragedy, but...

8. War is war.

Are we done now? Can we not have this printed and bound in pamphlet form, to be distributed by the well-wrung hands of liberal writers each time events in the Holy Land take another apocalyptic turn? Because I'm a bit exhausted, to be honest. The kind of existential, moral exhaustion that might also be called despair.

This is how I feel, as a coddled third-hand observer a happy ocean or two away, so what Israelis and Palestinians feel must be beyond the power of words to describe. In 2017, Israel will have held the Palestinian territories for half a century, and the solution keeps on receding into the distance.

As my list above implies, I can't pretend to be entirely neutral: I stand with Israel, as the hashtag has it. Even if I didn't find the Zionist claim to a state in the historical Jewish homeland compelling, I'd still feel inclined towards Israel for reasons of solidarity.

What I mean by this was expressed beautifully by Howard Jacobson in 2009. So little has changed since then that, after I read it for the first time recently, I assumed it had been written this week. You should take the time to read the whole thing, but the nub is this: there is legitimate criticism of Israeli government policy, and then there is the international anti-Zionist movement, and the two bear scant relation to one another.

As Jacobson writes of the latter, it is "a discriminatory, over-and-above hatred, inexplicable in its hysteria and virulence whatever justification is adduced for it; an unreasoning, deranged and as far as I can see irreversible revulsion that is poisoning everything we are supposed to believe in here [...] But I am not allowed to ascribe any of this to anti-Semitism. It is, I am assured, 'criticism' of Israel, pure and simple."A simple illustration: in the Hobbesian nightmare that is Bashar al-Assad's Syria, about 9,000 children have been killed since the civil war began in 2011. Nine thousand. That's the equivalent of a large British secondary school reduced to ashes every six months.

Forgive me if I'm merely being unobservant, but where is the international campaign against the Syrian regime? Is it hiding? Did campuses all over the world hold a “Syrian Genocide Week”, and I just wasn't paying attention?

I think not, somehow. This is not “criticism”, this is obsession.

A part of me is tempted to voice my very real concerns about where Israeli society is headed, but after a week or two of arguing with people who will do anything but recognize terrorist aggression has dissuaded me.

I still have those concerns, but somehow, I just can't bring myself to talk about them. Not while my Israeli comrades are rushing to their bomb shelters and being blamed for it at the same time.

I stand with Israel. ....I could not say it any clearer.

pax
can't even find your own words??????

War is war: Why I stand with Israel - Tom Doran

or actually directly respond ????
that whole copy paste is full of weaselling nonsense

5. Hamas is a wholly malevolent organization who would be recognized as neo-Nazis if they happened to be white Christians.

this is fucking rich to be frank since it's Israeli's who have been making apartheid legislation and ghettoising the Arab population then shooting "fish in a berral.
utterly fucking weak hasbara bullshit
TRY using your own words to refute what MSNBC,Bishop Desmond Tutu ,former President Jimmy Carter et all have said about the Apartheid state that is Israel......

But I am not allowed to ascribe any of this to anti-Semitism

Palestinians are Semites and they are being screwed....
however as I said, you can't even find your OWN words to directly refute the evidence.. weak sauce indeed.
Now let's look at things... The speaker of the Knesset is calling for the Palestinians in the whole of Israel and the Occupied Territories to be thrown into "tented camps" where they would be "concentrated" .. ring a fucking bell does it?
He also calls for them to be booted out the occupied territories so there would only be a single state with all the Arabs in the camps.....
Then there's the other members of the Knesset calling for the genocide of the Palestinians.... does any of this ring a WW2 like bell?
Claiming that the missiles,mortars,tank bombardments etc are GOOD for Palestinians?? fucking really???
Claiming that children are to be considered combatants(yeah that's been done you know..... really?
To speak up against such tyranny isn't "anti-Semitic" ,isn't "anti-Jewish" not even remotely when the Israeli state is moving farther and rather to the right, to the point where they have already ghettoised the Arab population , legislated them into second class citizen status, openly call for them to be lout into concentration camps and call for their genocide....... how could any Jew condone that?
I KNOW my grandfather and grandmother would be horrified at the parallels not just at what's being done.
I do NOT condone Hamas ,they are fucking dicks... BUT I do stand against what's being done to the Palestinian people.
What i would like though is a response to the video's i posted in my last post in your own words .. watch them and then respond to the like of Bishop Desmond Tutu, former Pres Jimmy Carter etc......
a copy paste just doesn't cut it and neither does appeal to what happened during the second world war ,especially when the senior memmers of the Knesset are calling for the exact same thing to be done to the Arabs...

Bland1900
Twist any words, any way you'd like

You must have missed my post #29 - my own words. (See above.) My 2nd post (#30) was Tom Doran's words. (Made a lot of sense, to me.) I could not have said it, better. ....Why don't you just admit that you won't be satisfied, until you see all of Israel wiped from the map, and it's inhabitants exterminated. If I understand, what you've written, you don't value the lives of innocent Israelis, in the least. You only care about the lives of others, including cowardly terrorists and their conscienceless enablers. .....Perhaps you do have comprehension difficulties. (You, not only, twist my words, but, at the least, misinterpret the words of many others.) Your argument is not convincing. I continue to stand with Israel!

pax
no time today

will get to you later after the voting/counting has ended
however...

.Why don't you just admit that you won't be satisfied, until you see all of Israel wiped from the map, and it's inhabitants exterminated

utter shite, never anywhere did i say that and what i daid say was a two state solution is what is needed... as for genocide.. see the knesset parliamentarians and ultra right wong punters for details.....

you don't value the lives of innocent Israelis, in the least.

oh yes i do... \NOWHERE did i ever say all Israeli's were bad or needed to die.. not once so save yer bullshit for someone who will fall for it.

You only care about the lives of others, including cowardly terrorists and their conscienceless enablers. .....Perhaps you do have comprehension difficulties.

LOL what a pile of craptastica.. i have repeatedly called hamas dicks and will continue to call them dicks... I care about all life that doesn't call for the extinction of others..... so that means hamas and the ultra right in israel are equally dicks to my mind.
the ordinary people who are not shoutong for blood and genocide are all fine and groovy with me.

(You, not only, twist my words, but, at the least, misinterpret the words of many others.)

Yes mr amateur kettle.... bloody idiot

Your argument is not convincing. I continue to stand with Israel!

mine isn't?..lol
did you even watch any of those videos? i bet you didn't..
anyway i am off to work at the counts in the referendum today.. much more important than dealing with your pish that's for sure
Theirig A-steach to you sir as we say in Scotland

Bland1900
I continue to stand with Israel!

Good luck with yer referendum. Until then "póg mo thóin" (as my friends in Southie say.)

pax
LOL you can't even get the

LOL you can't even get the right Gaelic.. that's Irish LOLOL
and your anus is the last thing on Earth I'd kiss... i'd rather lock my lips of a fetish yak ring-piece :)
shitting my pants with the referendum though.. FUCKING MASSIVE TURNOUT..
hopefully though that's due to our voter registration progrtam in the YEs campaign.
back for a quick break and making a coupla flasks of coffee and sandwiches to take out to the count at ingliston.
gonna be a Looooooooooong night..
I'll either be elated or crying from 6am tomorrow

Bland1900
You're correct...

...My friends in Southie (South Boston) are Irish. I got the phrase from them. (They thought it would be fitting for you, after reading your posts.) .......I hope the referendum goes your way. Good luck.

mike.smith
Good quotes, bad quotes...

Good quotes, bad quotes... whatever! By their fruits ye shall know them.

pax
mike.smith wrote:
mike.smith wrote:

Good quotes, bad quotes... whatever! By their fruits ye shall know them.

so you'll be known as a racist dick then? :)

mike.smith
Fuck off you admitted Jewish

Fuck off you admitted Jewish troll. I told you once already that I have NOTHING EVER AGAIN to say to you EVER AGAIN. It is a waste of my time. Your's too... unless you are a troll. Grow the fuck up, including GROW SOME BALLS and attack my arguments, not me ad hominem. Fucking moron.

There... are we BOTH done with the personal insults now? I sure hope so. *sigh*

pax
who's a Jew?

not me :)
didn't take much to bring out the venom there eh mike?? LOL
I have more balls than you might imagine and the medals to prove it you useless racist bellend.
MY grandparents were Jewish.. just like Jesus! ..lol.. i am NOT Jewish.
I love bacon and have bacon rolls(Scottish bread rolls.. they're lovely btw every morning.. not very kosher eh?
funny how the racist troll calls someone else out for being a troll..lol

Log in to post comments