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Understanding Islam
05-21-2008, 12:12 PM,
#31
Understanding Islam
Im sorry but that is just silly. The stuff in the video's its all there, even holy (zamzam properbly) water. As taken streight out of the vaticans handbook. How come he abuse a single verse to put forth all the rest of his case for diagnosing mental illness and lethal overweight problems as possesion.

[quote]The following verse of the Quran compares the state of sinners on the Day of Judgment to the state of those made insane by the Devil:
275. Those who eat Riba (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitan (Satan) leading him to insanity...
(Translation of The Meaning of the Quran, Surah Al-Baqarah 2:275)[quote]

The translation is overly fancyfull to prove his point, and the whole verse, in fact the whole section deals with usury and giving charity.

Charity shall go to the poor who are suffering in the cause of GOD, and cannot emigrate. The unaware may think that they are rich, due to their dignity. But you can recognize them by certain signs; they never beg from the people persistently. Whatever charity you give, GOD is fully aware thereof.

Those who give to charity night and day, secretly and publicly, receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

Those who charge usury are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that usury is the same as commerce. However, GOD permits commerce, and prohibits usury. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from usury, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with GOD. As for those who persist in usury, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever.

GOD condemns usury, and blesses charities. GOD dislikes every disbeliever, guilty.

Those who believe and lead a righteous life, and observe the Contact Prayers , and give the obligatory charity , they receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

Quran 2:273-2:277

The context is damn obvious here, but somehow he isolates that single line, takes it out of its obviously methaphorical intend, to lend a wessel for his nonsense. appaling. The Quran is perfectly clear on many issues, and if you need to help your point along in this way, chances are that it wasnt a point Mohammad intended to make.

Some point on satan from the Quran to concider.


He (Satan) said, "My Lord, since You have willed that I go astray, I will surely entice them on earth; I will send them all astray. Except those among Your worshipers who are devoted absolutely to You alone." He (God) said, "This is a law that is inviolable: You have no power over my servants; you only have power over the strayers who follow you." [15:39-42]

(Satan said,) "I will come to them from before them, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left, and You will find most of them un-appreciative." [7:17]

And the devil will say, after the judgment had been issued, "God has promised you the truthful promise, and I promised you, but I broke my promise. I had no power over you; I simply invited you, and you accepted my invitation. Therefore, do not blame me, and blame only yourselves. My complaining cannot help you, nor can your complaining help me. I have disbelieved in your idolizing me. The transgressors have incurred a painful retribution." [14:22]

When you read the Quran, you shall seek refuge in God from Satan the rejected. He has no power over those who believe and trust in their Lord. His power is limited to those who choose him as their master, those who choose him as their god. [16:98-100]

(O Satan,) "You have no power over My servants. You only have power over the strayers who follow you." [15:42]

"You may entice them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces and all your men against them, and share in their money and children, and promise them. Anything the devil promises is no more than an illusion. As for My servants, you have no power over them." Your Lord suffices as an advocate. [17:64-65]

Shall I inform you upon whom the devils descend?[26:221]
They descend upon every guilty fabricator. [26:222]
They pretend to listen, but most of them are liars. [26:223]


So according to the Quran if thes people are possesed (as it has been understood in the vatican for ages) its their own damn fault for being crocked and liars! that webpage owner sure is, what an asshole!
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05-22-2008, 01:41 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-22-2008, 01:43 AM by trueaim.)
#32
Understanding Islam
Quote:Sounds like a loving and just God to me. To punish someone for something he didn't do... Fourth generation. Yeah, thats logical. Makes perfect sense eh?

:yuck::dazed:LOL? Should I laugh? Cry? Say WTF?:dazed::zipit:

How fucking retarded do you have to be to believe that's the will of the loving and just god? Divinely inspired text? This is a god I don't want to have anything with. And if hell is a place without such a sadistic and evil entity, I'll gladly go there. Your "God in flash" told you to forgive infinite number of times, yet he can't forgive an innocent child? How can this god expect us to forgive if he is a sadistic unforgiving freak like that?
Anyways, it's a topic on Islam. Go preach in some other topic.


You cant even reason correctly, look at the commandment again, up to the fourth for sins, BUT, up to the thousandth for 'love me and keep my commandments' that means that every one on the planet 2day and throughout history has been recieving God's blessings thats why they are alive and not dead, he dosent kill innocents, you just bore false witness against the Commandment, What the Commandment says is that the sins of the father or grandfather etc are still present in the son and without turning to God that cannot be fixed and you will be punished but your also recieving blessings bcause somewhere sometime going back a thousandth generations someone was getting it right so YOU benefit. And is it any wonder it needs to be that way casue YOU cannot even read a Commandment correctly, you only can use your emotional sentimentality and not analytical reason, Look again at the Commandment your life depends upon it.
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
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05-22-2008, 02:39 AM,
#33
Understanding Islam
Analytical reason? To reward 1000 generations of people for something they didn't do? And punish others for something they also didn't do? Sorry, that's not just completely illogical and injust, it's also completely retarded to expect behaviour like that from perfect all-loving god. If there ever was an injustice from bible entity, this is a perfect example of it.

But I won't bite your bait, preacher. My conversation on christianity with you in this topic about Islam ends right here.
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. &Look at the fish
swimming about,& said Chuang Tzu, &They are really enjoying themselves.&

&You are not a fish,& replied the friend, &So you can't truly know that they
are enjoying themselves.&

&You are not me,& said Chuang Tzu. &So how do you know that I do not
know that the fish are enjoying themselves?&
Reply
05-22-2008, 02:43 AM,
#34
Understanding Islam
Quote:But I won't bite your bait, preacher. My conversation on christianity with you in this topic about Islam ends right here.

:laughkick:You say that but you already have the hook in your mouth.
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05-22-2008, 02:55 AM,
#35
Understanding Islam
:laughkick:
Yeah, I should have said "from now on". Christian "reasoning" actually makes me so nervous it's very hard to resist replying it. And if it's direct provocation, even harder.

Back on topic:
I'm reading Quran now from the pure curiosity and I have to say I'm surprised in positive way. I expected worse stuff in it. It actually is much less vicious and cruel than the bible, from what I've read, and some some passages consist of some pretty advanced and great ideas, like;

"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." The Qur'an, 2:62

Tolerance like that towards other religions was really not something I'd expect in Quran. I must have been pretty influenced by stereotypes I guess. I'll report more when I'm done reading.
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. &Look at the fish
swimming about,& said Chuang Tzu, &They are really enjoying themselves.&

&You are not a fish,& replied the friend, &So you can't truly know that they
are enjoying themselves.&

&You are not me,& said Chuang Tzu. &So how do you know that I do not
know that the fish are enjoying themselves?&
Reply
05-22-2008, 03:11 AM,
#36
Understanding Islam
Well most of that Islamo-fascist stuff is pure propaganda. What extremism in Islam exists comes
from where it always does, corrupt institutional hierarchy perverting, distorting, and making up what
the text means. The only exception I would make to that is OT which is inherently a racist violent
identity religion.
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05-22-2008, 04:04 AM,
#37
Understanding Islam
Just a thought on sins and rewards of the past thing. We are usually a product of our enviornment. An old saying (don't remember where I heard it) goes something like. When my children were young, they loved me. "When my children were teenagers, they hated me. When my children became adults, they were me."

Most children who were abused, usually abuse when older. That doesn't mean that they can not break the cycle, but many don't. Children that are raised by liars, thieves, and the likes, see this lifestyle as a norn. Children that are raised seeing honor, dignity, self sacrifice from their parents and family, usually turn out that way too. Again, there are exceptions. Perhaps that is what God is speaking of.

If that is the case, maybe the text should be looked at differently.
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05-23-2008, 07:12 PM,
#38
Understanding Islam
Quote::laughkick:
Yeah, I should have said "from now on". Christian "reasoning" actually makes me so nervous it's very hard to resist replying it. And if it's direct provocation, even harder.

Back on topic:
I'm reading Quran now from the pure curiosity and I have to say I'm surprised in positive way. I expected worse stuff in it. It actually is much less vicious and cruel than the bible, from what I've read, and some some passages consist of some pretty advanced and great ideas, like;

"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." The Qur'an, 2:62

Tolerance like that towards other religions was really not something I'd expect in Quran. I must have been pretty influenced by stereotypes I guess. I'll report more when I'm done reading.

if you come by stuff you think seems "out of place" with things like the above, i suggest that you look up the offending verses at http://www.quranbrowser.com and see if there is a general consensus the translation. Altso its important to keep in mind that the Quran does not have a long tradition of being translated into english, thus there is a tendency among muslims scholars and secular ones alike to translate it in the light of the religion we today know as sunni islam, shiah islam which evidently is a hodgepodge of oral traidtions from pre islamic times, superstitions, a wide range of cultures mixed in with some Quran for spice.

New breeds of scholars are translating it on the light of itself, and looking at how poets of the day used the same words. I have given examples of this in other threads about islam on this page.

The problem is that the translators traditionally were the ones, that through translation decided when something was methaphor or when it is to be taken litterally. And a great example is in the punishment for theft. sunnis will insist that the punishment is the cutting of a hand, this is translating the text litterally. So, if we take the same word and look at how its used elsewhere in the Quran, it would seem that in the story about Joseph and pharaos wife, the wife and all her freinds cut both their hands off when they saw his beuty.

So, why is it to be taken litterally when its regarding theft, and not when its in the narration of Josephs growing experience in Egypt? how makes the decision? Culture did, thats who.

Its possible that they "cut themself" the story narrates that they were handling fruit and peeling them, and got distracted and then "ouch". But in the context of thefts it makes little sense to just cut his hand (not off).

So there is another approach If you look at how the words can altso be understood, and ttry the different meanings throughout the book without ever selecting other than what is suggested be the book itself "if in doubt always look for THE BEST meaning", so it is perfectly valid within the framwork of the arabic languge, and the way the word has traditionally been used back in the day to suggest that the cutting of the theif is in fact. Cutting FROM the hands of the theif, and now were talking metaphorically. You take our shit, we take it back ,and heres the catch, if he cant deliver it back he will have to work it off with his hands.

And suddenly the verse after if, that every mullah keeps either flat out ignoring or making up lame excuses for makes a whole lot more sense.

But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, God turneth to him in forgiveness; for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. [005:039]

seriously! "Youre forgiven, sorry about the hand tho mate". makes a whole lot more sense that its "youre forgiven mate, but youll still have to pay back to the injured party".

this barbaric pre islamic traidtion and continued understand of something that is perfectly clear without being hidden udner layers of oral traditions also create great social injustice. How is he going to provide for himself and perhaps a familky he was trying to support with the desperate act of stealing WITH ONE HAND?

Sorry, i dont mean to preach mate what it boils down to is. be carefull. Mohammad was a brilliant mind in the midst of what he himself deemd that darkest civilisation on the face of the earth, and his ideas have a tendency to drown in still unsolved rivalries and internal conflicts with following special interrests in one understand over another being "the official one". Islam has no officials, not unless you are physically in a prison, then you have officials, but islam is a deal between you and God, and noone else. None.

And the "khalifat" comes about as each indivdial accepts it as their base morality, not through conquest, manipulation or any other means. you dont have to read the Quran to get it btw, but as it happens to be my favourite writ on "the original deal" out there, im very pleased that you do:)
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05-25-2008, 08:47 AM,
#39
Understanding Islam
I never really understood what was so inherently bad about interest until I understood how the modern banking system operates. Fractional reserve banking cannot exist with out credit (or debt) and interest (or extortion!) as foundational principles. That clicked after I saw the money masters some years ago. I thought this article was a good read:
Quote:Prohibition of Interest (Riba) in islam – The Social, Moral and Economic Rationale (Part i)

- Zahid Zamir

Introduction

Islam is a complete code of life which offers its own social, political and economic systems to guide human behavior in all spheres of life. History has recorded that the economic system of Islam, for the first time in the world had established social and economic justice during the period of al-Khilafah al-Rashidah. In any ideal Muslim society, socio-economic justice is considered as one of the most significant characteristics for the social, political, economic as well as all realms of human interaction. Exploitation and any source of unjustified enrichment in Islam is prohibited. The Holy Qur’an has emphatically instructed Muslims not to acquire each other’s property wrongfully[1]. Islam is not an ascetic religion. It takes a positive view of life as the natural outcome of the belief that human beings are the vicegerents of Allah(swt).

The goals of socio-economic justice and equitable distribution of income and wealth are integral parts of the moral philosophy of Islam. However, one of the socio-economic reforms made by Islam was the prohibition of riba (interest). About the efficacy and usefulness of the prohibition of interest in Islam, Muslim economists have tried to provide the juridical clarity and support based on reason, as opposed to mere belief. The purpose of this paper is to spell out the meaning of riba or interest, its different kinds, and the social, moral, as well as economic rationale of its prohibition.


Interest

In modern secular economic systems interest plays a very important role. In fact, in the Western world people cannot think of any economic system without interest. From a theoretical standpoint, interest has been a debatable subject among economic and political theorists. Abu Saud defines interest as “ the excess of money paid by the borrower to the lender over and above the principal for the use of the lender’s liquid money over a certain period of time”[2]. Economists have presented different interpretations of interest. Samuelson states that “Interest is the price of rental for the use of money”[3]. Don Patinkin gives the following definition: “Interest is one of the forms of income from property, the other forms being dividends, rent and profit”[4]. However, J.M. Keynes did not define interest but mentioned the rate of interest as “The percentage of excess of a sum of units of money contracted for forward units of time over the spot or cash price of the sum thus contracted for forward delivery”[5].

However, Muslim, socialist and a number of capitalist economists have questioned these explanations on both theoretical and technical grounds. They often stress the point that money capital cannot be treated as capital goods on the same basis as productive factors. It is pertinent to remark here that lending of money for interest was abhorred and, in most cases, prohibited by all the monotheistic religions[6]. An eminent Western economist, Roy Harrod[7], regards the abolition of interest is the only way to avert a collapse of capitalism. Not only this, but he speaks with great admiration for an interest-less society in his work on Economic Dynamics. Harrod clearly recognizes that, “It is not the profit itself, earned by services, by assiduity, by imagination, or by courage, but the continued interest accruing from the accumulation that makes that profit taker eventually appear parasitical…” and he further states that an interest-less society which will be a totally new kind of society” would be the correct and final answer to all that is justly advanced by the critics of capitalism.


Prohibition of riba (interest) in Islam

Riba is prohibited in Islam as it appears explicitly in the Holy Qur’an. There is complete unanimity among all Islamic schools of thought regarding the prohibition of riba. Since the Qur’an is the undisputed source of guidance in Islam for all Muslims, there is unanimous agreement on the fact that Islam has forbidden the practice of riba. The debate on whether interest is riba or not has been settled. The ulama have made crystal clear that interest is riba. The modern banking system is organized on the basis of a fixed payment called interest. That is why the practices of the modern banking system are in conflict with the principles of Islam which strictly prohibit riba. Islam is opposed to exploitation in every form and stands for fair and equitable dealings among all men. To charge interest from someone who is constrained to borrow to meet his essential consumption requirement is considered an exploitative practice in Islam. Charging of interest on loans taken for productive purposes is also prohibited because it is not an equitable form of transaction[8]. Now let’s have a look on the prohibition of interest in the light of the Qur’an and the Sunnah (tradition of Prophet Muhammad (saw)).


Prohibition of riba in the holy quran

In several verses of the Holy Qur’an, Allah(swt) has mentioned the consequences of riba. The Qur’an did not declare the prohibition of riba in the early stage of revelation, rather we find that the complete prohibition of interest came sequentially.

In the Qur’an Allah(swt) says:

“That which ye lay out for increase through the property of (other) people, will have no increase with Allah: But that which ye lay out for charity, seeking the countenance of Allah (will increase): it is these who will get a recompense multiplied”. (30:39)

“That they took riba (usury), through they were forbidden and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully – We have prepared for those among men who reject faith a grievous punishment.” (4:161)

“O ye who believe! Devour not usury doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah, that ye may (really) prosper.” (3:140)

“Those who devour usury will not stand except as stands one whom the evil one by his touch hath driven to madness. That is because they say: ‘Trade is like usury.’ But Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge). But those who repeat (the offence) are companions of the fire, they will abide therein (forever)” (2:275)

“O you who have attained faith! Remain conscious of God, and give up all outstanding gains from Usury, if you are (truly) believers” (2: 278)


Abdullah Yusuf Ali[9] in his commentary on the Holy Qur’an mentioned that usury is condemned and prohibited in the strongest possible terms. There can be no question about the prohibition. Owing to the fact that interest occupies a central position in modern economic life, and specially since interest is the very life blood of the existing financial institutions, a number of Muslim countries have been inclined to interpret it in a manner which is radically different form the understanding of Muslim scholars throughout the last fourteen centuries and is also sharply in conflict with the categorical statements of the Prophet Muhammad(saw).


Prohibition of riba in the hadith [10]

Jabir reported: The Prophet (saw), cursed the receiver and the payer of interest, the one who records it (the contract) and the two witnesses to the transaction and said, “they are all alike (in guilt).”

Jabir ibn Abdullah, giving a report on the Prohet’s farewell pilgrimage, said: The Prophet (saw), addressed the people and said, “All the riba al-jahiliyyah is annulled, the first riba htat I annulled is our riba, accruing to al-Abbas ibn Abdul Mutalib (the Prophet’s uncle).”

Abu Hurayrah (ra) narrated that the Prophet (saw), said: “riba has seventy segments, the least serous is equivalent to a man committing incest with his own mother.”

Abu Hurayrah (ra) narrated that the Prophet (saw) said: “”God would not allow four persons to enter paradise or to taste its blessings: he who drinks wine, he who takes riba, he who usurps an orphan’s property without right and he who is undutiful to his parents.”


The meaning of riba

The word riba has been used in the Holy Qur’an on several occasions. So it is necessary to know what it means or what it really stands for. Riba has been extracted from Raba. It means addition, increase[11]. So, riba literally means to increase, to grow to rise, to add, to swell. It is, however, not every increase or growth which has been prohibited by Islam. In the Shari’ah, “riba” technically refers to the premium that must be paid by the borrower to the lender along with the principal amount as a condition for the loan or for an extension in its maturity. In this sense riba has the same meaning as interest in accordance with the consensus of all jurists without any exception[12]. So the Holy Qur’an and the Hadith do not make any such difference between usury and interest. Interest and usury both are taken as synonymous for the Arabic word riba.


Types of riba

Althought the Qur’an did not specify any particular kind of riba, it is generally held that the word al-riba in the Qur’an is that kind of dealing which had been in vogue during the pre-Islamic days[13]. Muslim jurists have classified riba in two types: 1. riba al-nasi’ah, and 2. riba al-fadl.
  • Riba al- nasi’ah

    The term nasi’ah means to postpone or to wait and it refers to the time period that is allowed for the borrower to repay the loan in return for the addition of the premium. Hence it refers to the interest on loans. The prohibition of riba al nasi’ah essentially implies that the fixing in advance of a positive return on a loan as a reward for waiting is not permitted by the Shari’ah[14].
    <>
  • Riba al-fadl

    Islam, however, wishes to eliminate not merely the exploitation that is intrinsic in the institution of interest, but also that which is inherent in all forms of unjust exchange in business transactions.

    Riba al-fadl is the excess over and above the loan paid in kind. It lies in the payment of an addition by the debtor to the creditor in exchange of commodities of the same kind. The following tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) is cited[15] as evidence. It is related that Abu Said al-Khurdi said: “the Prophet Muhammad (saw) has said that gold in return for gold, silver for silver, wheat for wheat, barley for barley, dates for dates and salt for salt, can be traded if and only if they are in the same quantity and that is should be hand to hand. If someone gives more or takes, then he is engaged in riba and accordingly has committed a sin.”<>
    [st]To sum up, riba al-nasi’ah and riba al-fadl are both covered by the verse, “Allah has allowed trade and prohibited riba” (2:275), while riba-al nasi’ah relates to loans and riba al-fadl relates to trade. Although trade is allowed in principle it does not mean that everything in trade is allowed.

    (to be continued)

    [1] Al-Qur’an 2:188, 4:29.
    [2] Abu Saud , M., “Money, Interst and Qirad in Islam”, Studies in Islamic Economics, The Islamic Foundation , Leicester,, UK , 1983. p.64
    [3] Samuelson, P., Economics, 10th Edition , McGraw Hill, New York, 1976, p.50
    [4] Patinkin, D., Studies in Monetary Economics , Harper and Row, New York, 1972, p.118
    [5] Keynes, J.M., The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, London, 1936, p.22.
    [6] Al-Harran, S., Islamic Finance: Partnership Finance, Pelanduk Publications, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 1993, p.6
    [7] Harrod, R., Towards a Dynamic Economics, London, 1973, pp58-81.
    [8] Ahmed, Z., “Prohibition of Interest in Islam”, Journal of Islamic Banking and Finance, Karachi, Pakistan, Vol.1, No.1, 1984, p.20
    [9] Ali, Abdullah Yusuf., The Meaning if the holy Qur’an , Commentary no.324-326, Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, USA, 1992, p.115.
    [10] Capra, M.U., “ The Nature and its Treatment in the Qur’an, Hadith and Fiqh”, in An Introduction to Islamic Finance, Sheikh Gazali Sheikh Abod, Syed Omar Syed Agil and Aidit Hj. Ghazali (eds)., Quil Publishers, Kuala Lumpur, Mala ysia , 1992, pp.380-381
    [11] Maudoodi, abul A’la, Sud ‘O’ Adhunik Banking ( Interest and Modern Banking, translated into Bengali from the Origianl Book ‘Sud’ in Urdu), Adhunik Prokashani, Dhaka, Bangladesh, 1987, p.84.
    [12] Al –Harran, S., op.cit., p.16
    [13] Ahmed, Z., in “ The Theory of Riba”, in An Introduction to Islamic Finance , Sheikh Ghazali, Syed Omar, Adit Ghazali (eds), Quill Publishers, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 1992, p.57.
    [14] Chapra, M.U., op-cit, p.35
    [15] Al-Harran, S., op-cit, p.18
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05-25-2008, 02:34 PM,
#40
Understanding Islam
Yes, shZ, one of the first gems in Quran I was fascinated with was prohibition of interests.
If Judaism had this prohibition, we would be living in a better word today.
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. &Look at the fish
swimming about,& said Chuang Tzu, &They are really enjoying themselves.&

&You are not a fish,& replied the friend, &So you can't truly know that they
are enjoying themselves.&

&You are not me,& said Chuang Tzu. &So how do you know that I do not
know that the fish are enjoying themselves?&
Reply
05-25-2008, 07:43 PM,
#41
Understanding Islam
I think Judaism do have a prohibition of interest, correct me if Im wrong, but they let it out after hundreds of years. Also, the prohibition of pork, which they dont care for anymore.
[Image: Palestinian_Dawn_by_Palestinian_Pride.jpg]
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05-25-2008, 08:57 PM,
#42
Understanding Islam
true on both accounts, except the OT as far as i know still condemns itand that it does say that it only goes for trading amongst themselfes, they can trade with usury with forreigners.
Reply
05-25-2008, 10:53 PM,
#43
Understanding Islam
Imagine - NO interest. That would be a plus.
Quote:Also, the prohibition of pork, which they dont care for anymore.

lol, I made the mistake of going into a jewish pizza restaurant in NJ and asking if they had pepperoni.
The look on their faces was classic - Oh the horror, how offensive, what a stupid goy.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
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05-26-2008, 12:07 AM,
#44
Understanding Islam
The Jews I know can care less about pepperoni or any pork. Look at Kraft marshmallows, its Jewish and has pork gelatin.
[Image: Palestinian_Dawn_by_Palestinian_Pride.jpg]
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05-29-2008, 10:46 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-29-2008, 11:00 PM by shZ.)
#45
Understanding Islam
Quote:You guessed right and I don't see how you don't understand it. Yes, killing bugs and eating meat.
- Do not kill means do not kill and not do not kill humans.
I think you're taking that a bit far and being a little too buddhist there. But if you want to be that nit picky plants are a form of life too. :wink:
Quote:Of course we could wonder how the same God who commanded "do not kill" commanded also:
Well, since the only authority on religious matter in Islam is the Quran itself, you're not going to find those old testament verses in the Quran it self anywhere.
Quote:Oh yeah, let's not talk about christianty. Ok. I agree.
on topic
Let's talk about Islam. shZ, I wonder what's your take on this, since muslims generaly agree with the first five books of the bible and consider Islam as restoration of Abrahamic faith? Most of those quotes are from there. How do you cope with this?
In Islam, military force is only a last resort as a defensive measure. Otherwise it's considered pure agression which is rightfuly so considered uncivilized, cruel, unjust, and something Allah despises. The following verses from Surah Al-Baqara makes it pretty clear:

190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors."

191: "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."

192: "But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

193: "And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression."

Keep in mind that all Surah of the Quran have a historial context as well. Just like Christianity, Muslims were a persecuted by the pagan establishment as well, that includes torture and murder. The verses regarding the use of force legitimize it purely for self defense and to avoid persecution or oppression. Upon surrender or defeat, like the verses say, violence looses it's defensive qualities and becomes agression... which is obviously not allowed, as is evident. I hope that answered your question.

EDIT: Sorry about getting to it so late, eventhough the OT is not part of the Quran and doesn't apply to us. Basically the deal with Islam in regards to it's predecesor monotheistic faiths is that, according to Islam, Moses and Jesus were messengers and Prophets, who's respective messages were later corrupted intentionally by men (think along the lines of organized religion and heirarchy) and assimulated with local pagan customs and beliefs. The Torah and Bible are to us are bastardized corruptions of the original. The purpose of Muhammad was to deliver God's message to man one last time, basically. In other words, the OT and Bible are absolete (from an Islamic perspective ofcourse). But I wanted to support my argument with actual Quranic verses as opposed to pulling something out of my ass like some apologist. That in itself isn't a big deal, the research that is. I just wasn't in the mood to address the question being a little burned out. It has nothing to do with you or how you phrased it... I'm just tired of hardcore rationalist and athiests accusing all religions universally of being as batshit crazy or barbaric as some stuff found in the OT (generalizing aspect of a single book to all religions universally that is, and being very intolerant of anything that isn't secular). You know the type, I'm sure you've run in to them too.
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