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re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
05-22-2008, 05:05 AM,
#1
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
I too do not understand the gore of the OT, I find it to be quite a troubling set of books.

This seemed as good an article as any on explaining OT bloodshed. (I don't have a better explanation of my own)
Quote:Here I will address some of the problems frequently encountered when reading of the destruction and death in the OT. People come up with all kinds of excuses for their belief in a vicious and violent wargod displayed in the Bible. I will sequencially disassemble these beliefs and show with the Bible itself, using the New Testament, (which applies to us today), that God is not bad at all. Without the New Testament though, this would be very difficult if not impossible to prove.
First we must accept and embrace that the OT and NT are almost diametrically opposed in regarding the nature of God. In the OT we see many wars and slayings and killings, we see in some places God being the executioner, and in other places God telling the people to go and slaughter countless thousands in battle. Many affluent atheistic authors are quick to point out the brutality of the OT, and far too many duped Christians make offensive attempts at excusing the carnage. Like it or not, the OT and NT display an almost different God...but why? I will get to that in a moment.

Some examples of this OT carnage are the worldwide flood of Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah, all of the wars under David, Solomon, and Saul....specific verses of the Bible like 1st Samuel 15:3, where God says to slay the Amalekite men, women, children, infants, sucklings, oxen, sheep, donkeys, and camels..to "utterly destroy" everything there.
The typical Christian will answer that God's ways are not understandable, and His divine wisdom is so far beyond our own....excuse me? I don't worship a God that is not understandable, a God whos best image is a giant cosmic question mark.

Instead of making up retarded and lazy answers to these dilemmas, Christians should try to find a way to explain what actually happened.
The skeptic will look at these verses and wonder how on Earth a loving and compassionate God could ever do something like that. If anything, that God should do His own dirty work, and in some places He does, while in other places He tells people to do violent things instead. In the Gospels you don't see any of these acts of 'godly' violence taking place. Let's look at a few verses that tell us exactly what God really wants.

Ezekiel 33:11 I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That last verse is Peter speaking in context of the worldwide flood of Noah's day, so we can trust that he is talking about everyone and not just applying to Christians, as in some twisted doctrine like Calvinism.

With these verses fresh in our minds, we know that God doesn't want death or destruction and He certainly doesn't like it. So why did it happen so often? Equally as important, why doesn't it happen today? Why does God have entire chapters of the Bible written about His tender mercy that endures forever, His love, His peace, His holiness, and all things good, yet He also has so many pages of the Bible soaked and dripping with the blood of His enemies? Many theologians don't answer with anything but a collective sigh and a shrug of the shoulders. Folks, you've got to do better than that.

We know from several stories in the OT that God doesn't always necessarily do what He actually WANTS to do. Sometimes He does what the people want, whether it's good for them or not. In Numbers 11 we find the story of the children of Israel whining about eating manna all the time, so God sent them an abundance of quails to eat, and by their own lust they ate so many that they got sick and died. Psalm 78:29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire. I will comment on this again at the end of this section.

We also find in 1st Samuel 8:1 that God was going to be their king and their ruler, but the people wanted a human king instead, they wanted a person to rule over them....in spite of all of God's dire warnings about it and His perfect foresight, they didn't listen, so He gave in and granted them a king--Saul.

Later, in the NT we see Jesus in John 5:37-39 telling the Jews of His day that they didn't even know God, and had no clue what He was about or they would have accepted Him. Also, in Matthew 19:8, and Mark 10:5 Jesus told the Pharisees that because of the hardness of their hearts, Moses told them they could divorce their wives. Then Jesus refuted that law. In Matthew 9:13, and 12:7 Jesus told them they didn't understand the scriptures regarding mercy rather than sacrifice.

Colossians 2:9 states that Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and in John 14:9, where you see Him, you have seen the Father. Plus numerous other verses indicating that Jesus was the total representation of the Father, totally submitting to Him and doing His will.

Finally, we can go by the examples between the OT and NT. In the OT we see plenty of war war war blood guts and gore, hack slash and kill. These supposed people of God would be practically wading knee deep in the dead after their battles. In the NT however, we see the total opposite. Jesus didn't start any revolts or uprisings, He didn't come to destroy Rome, and He wasn't telling His disciples to keep their powder dry and their guns loaded. Many of the apostles died very cruel deaths and there were many martyrs in the early church....these were certainly NOT the violent people of the Old Testament. So, how in the world did these things happen by 'godly' people?

As shown so far, God would have been their King, but they wanted a human king, so God gave it to them. Another verse to be made aware of is Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. That's a powerful verse, your heart will determine the kind of person you are, and God will direct you accordingly.

We know that David was one of the kings of Israel, and that although David was credited as being a man after God's own heart, take special notice that he was not "perfect and upright" with righteousness like none other, such as Enoch, and Job were given credit to being. David was the best guy Israel had going for them, so he was the man for the job, but he had many shortcomings, and committed terrible things, such as adultery, and murder. David had another problem, and that was violence. Proof of this is some of the Psalms, where David's own eloquent prayers are for the destruction and eradication of his enemies. Though David wasn't always an adulterer or murderer, he was a ruthless person from his youth. When he was only a little boy, he chopped off the head of Goliath, after he had already taken him down. 1st Chronicles 28:3 shows us that God was NOT pleased with David's violent nature afterall. "But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood."

In spite of all of this, he sought the Lord, and had many high points in other areas of character. Remember, Paul was also a zealot for the Lord, even when he was persecuting the Christians, he too believed he was doing what was right, God eventually showed him otherwise. Now even though David was a violent man, the people he killed were not innocent either. This is how God directed His steps. I point out to skeptics and scoffers that nobody in the Bible was ever killed because they were being good.

The best part is that Jesus was well aware of all of the bloodshed in the OT....

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

That's right, all of this killing in the name of God was coming to an end. "The days of John the Baptist" is explained in the next verse as all of the prophets and law prophecied until John. Then in John 18:36 we find that Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world, or His servants would fight, there was not going to be any more of that.

So to sum it up now putting all these verses together we see that God didn't always do what He really wanted to do, but sometimes gave in to the whims of of the people, and the whims of the people were sometimes savage and violent, until Jesus came and told the people that they didn't really know God, or follow Him (see Judaizers and Holy Racism for proof of how things changed and what transpired once Jesus came onto the scene and demonstrated the true ways of God.) It's clear that the slaying and killing in the OT is not really the true will of God, but it's what the people wanted, so God gave it to them. Lastly we can see how Jesus proved this through His life, and the lives and deaths of His disciples and all of the martyrs.

This covers half of the reason why the Israelites were told to go into battle with any group of people that were deemed wicked. The other half of the reason is more of a matter of understanding that the Bible says what it means and means what it says. There is no way to put it lightly when scriptures say that a group of people committed abominations before the Lord, or when it says there were wicked people in the land, it doesn't mean they stole candy and cheated on their taxes. Think more along the lines of human decadence that modern man would cringe at the sight of. When the bible says that people were worshipping false idols, it doesn't mean they had a lucky charm in the corner of their house, it means more along the lines of sacrificing their own children in blood rituals for superstition.

Now that we have gone through the OT explaining the slaughters and wars that were done in the name of God, what about the places where God Himself destroys a group of people? In many places, God is said to be the one destroying, and yet for many of these events, there are cross references elsewhere in the Bible to the people bringing destruction upon themselves. I mentioned Numbers 11 above, which actually says God struck them with a plague. This will have to be discussed in another section, but in short. 'God' and 'the power of God' are written along the same lines many times in the bible, many things are done by His power, but He Himself did not do them. The same can be said of fire. Fire can do many good and essential things for you, but if you stick your hand in it, it will burn you just like anything else, don't blame the fire.

Now that we are in NT times, as stated before, many things changed upon the arrival of Christ. Killing in the name of God is no longer permitted, Jesus has unequivocably shown the true way to be and done away with many of the old ways. As far as things like the crusades, or people who blow up abortion clinics, or Hitler going under the banner of the Catholic church...this is very easy to figure out. These people were not Christians. Just because you claim to be one, doesn't mean you are one.
If you saw some man with a shaved head and a bright orange robe, armed with a rifle, shooting at school children, would you believe him if he said he was a Buddhist and believed in the teachings of Buddha? Come on people, use your heads, there are LIARS in this world. Do you really think Christianity is immune from hypocrites? Don't be so naive.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
05-22-2008, 06:13 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-22-2008, 06:25 AM by Melchor.)
#2
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Ok, I got a couple for you to ponder a minute. The exodus story. Why did God harden the Pharaoh's
heart so that he could inflict the plagues on the Egyptians? The way it's written it appears to be solely for
God's aggrandizement. That seems a bit odd to me. And how about Deuteronomy where God tells his
people stuff like this: if you come to a city and they submit to your army then take them as slaves. If not
kill everyone except for virgin females that you can take as concubines, and kill all the livestock and fruit-bearing trees and destroy their possessions?
Reply
05-22-2008, 06:34 AM,
#3
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:Ok, I got a couple for you to ponder a minute. The exodus story. Why did God harden the Pharaoh's
heart so that he could inflict the plagues on the Egyptians? The way it's written it appears to be solely for
God's aggrandizement. That seems a bit odd to me. And how about Deuteronomy where God tells his
people stuff like this: if you come to a city and they submit to your army then take them as slaves. If not
kill everyone except for virgin females that you can take as concubines, and kill all the livestock and fruit-bearing trees and destroy their possessions?
I sure don't have an answer, but will consider it while I sleep and throughout tomorrow.

I don't like the OT.
It is the one thing that gets in my way of absolute belief in Jesus.

Jesus doesn't seem at all like the OT God. Quite confusing :dazed:
I wish that they weren't bound together by the RCC. - Of course, a scary God helps them to have fear induced authority to receive tithe, and gluing that fear to passive Jesus, helps them even more.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
05-22-2008, 10:22 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-22-2008, 10:23 AM by trueaim.)
#4
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Jesus and the OT God are one and the same, so people are just going to have to get their head around that, is it difficult? Yep. The OT and the NT are unbroken scripture they are not seperate, Jesus is infinite divinity just like the Father and the Holy Spirit together they are a Trinity Godhead made of the same substance.

It is essential to read and understand the OT in order to fully grasp the ultimate revelations of the NT. They are books bound together for a reason. Cant start apolagising for what you personally dont like, and I prefer Jesus to the God of the OT stuff, they couldnt be the same God. Yes they are.
Jesus says: Luke 12:51

" Suppose ye that I come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay, but rather division"
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-22-2008, 12:37 PM,
#5
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:
Quote:Ok, I got a couple for you to ponder a minute. The exodus story. Why did God harden the Pharaoh's
heart so that he could inflict the plagues on the Egyptians? The way it's written it appears to be solely for
God's aggrandizement. That seems a bit odd to me. And how about Deuteronomy where God tells his
people stuff like this: if you come to a city and they submit to your army then take them as slaves. If not
kill everyone except for virgin females that you can take as concubines, and kill all the livestock and fruit-bearing trees and destroy their possessions?
I sure don't have an answer, but will consider it while I sleep and throughout tomorrow.

I don't like the OT.
It is the one thing that gets in my way of absolute belief in Jesus.

Jesus doesn't seem at all like the OT God. Quite confusing :dazed:
I wish that they weren't bound together by the RCC. - Of course, a scary God helps them to have fear induced authority to receive tithe, and gluing that fear to passive Jesus, helps them even more.

Jack, thank you.
You are a rare gem among christians, not denying something which is pretty obvious and blinding yourself with various "explanations" of OT. You at least admit it's challenging your faith... That also tells a lot about you, since many people defend the OT on basis "those bastards deserve it", "kill the withces" etc, which is pure evil. And they actually end up worshipping angry and evil god.

I was in christian apologetics for quite some time and I know most of the "answers" to these questions, yet they never satisfied me. Reason won. Anyways, to be a christian and not to start believing in irrational things, one has to drop the belief bible is a word of god. If you consider it a work of man and as a parable (as for example catholics do) which contains truth, but was written in cultural context of the time, the whole bible becomes more logical and you can understand the background also. But this leads to liberalistic christianity, christianity that loves and not judges and condemns, christianity without "speaking in tongues" mumbo jumbo, christianity without Israel-supporting preachers and politicians, christianity without power structures and authority, since it's liberal, and so on and on.

The thing is, most christians don't want christianity like that. They want the "kill the witches/gays/abortionists/heretics/[insert any "bad" word here] attitude. And if this attitude goes away, their main reason to stay in christianity (feeding hate and conformism) has gone.
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. &Look at the fish
swimming about,& said Chuang Tzu, &They are really enjoying themselves.&

&You are not a fish,& replied the friend, &So you can't truly know that they
are enjoying themselves.&

&You are not me,& said Chuang Tzu. &So how do you know that I do not
know that the fish are enjoying themselves?&
Reply
05-24-2008, 04:21 PM,
#6
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Thank you marko, though it's not true.

Quote:one has to drop the belief bible is a word of god. If you consider it a work of man and as a parable (as for example catholics do)
Yes, here is a point were I agree with catholics. Even says in the NAB preface - " Hence, the reader is not held to undeviating literalness in interpreting the words."


OK, I have an answer -
THERE IS NO WAY TO EXPLAIN THE HORROR IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.
All, answers seem stupid ! - There is NO logical explanation to give to logical humans ! (at least not that I can come up with)

Whoever wrote the above article had the best answer that I've ever heard, and it still isn't good enough.

However, I did come up with this -
it is a metaphor describing the tremendous power of God. Amongst the bloodshed, is also many positive things, many words of love, hope and safety. Call God, the Universe if you like or the force behind it. - It can be awesome and beautiful or unknowable and violent, causing great destruction. It's a gigantic parable, not to be taken too literally.



Besides that, I again would like to point out - if you unglue the NT from the OT, and have old covenant God / new covenant God, it changes everything.

Paul wrote, "If anyone ever had reason to hope that he could save himself, it would be me. If others could be saved by what they are, certainly I could. Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the Law, a Pharisee. I was so sincere that I persecuted the church; and sought to obey the Law to the letter. But all these things I once held paramount I cast away as dung. All is worth less than nothing when compared to the priceless gain of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord" (Philippians 3:4-8).

Yes trueaim, I understand that Jesus often quoted OT, he fulfills its prophesies concerning Messiah. Considering that he came to seek the lost sheep of Israel some of whom were taught by these OT books that would be necessary, for them to recognize him. Those that were unfamiliar with it however didn't need to first be familiarized with it. They could simply believe.

Note that today's joos still don't accept him, for he isn't a warrior savior that made them ultra important and powerful. Bare in mind however, that he came to save ALL.
All races colors and creeds, not just Israelites, but the whole world.

Sorry, if I disturb you trueaim, but Jesus came preaching the "GOOD News" - for ALL. He instructed believers to continue sharing this "GOOD News"
This can be done without any books or bibles at all. - As far as I know Jesus didn't write anything.
He didn't tell any disciple to go forth and educate the nations in Judaism, then tell them about the kingdom of heaven/God.
but simply - repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Believe and you will be heirs, and children of God.


To me, one of the most intriguing OT issues is the "Tetragrammaton"
"Tetragrammaton" the taboo 4 letters that changed into Big LORD, little lord or LORD GOD,
Interesting that these letters for God were preserved in the Hebrew Masoretic Text by the Masoretes - aka the scribes and Pharisees
The use of those taboo letters is not in the NT. - curious
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
05-25-2008, 04:53 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-25-2008, 07:53 AM by trueaim.)
#7
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
God promised to preserve His Word.

Psalm 12: 6-7

" The words of the LORD are pure words; as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times, THOU SHALT KEEP THEM, O LORD, thoult shalt PRESERVE them from this generation for ever"

Jesus says - John 17:17

"God's WORD is truth"

What isnt clear about this? the word is written, it is preserved for all generations, it is truth and cannot be changed:

"....Scripture CANNOT be broken" John 10:35

800 million copies of the 1611 KJV have been printed with NO royalties paid. The original crown copyright of 1611 does NOT forbid anyone from printing the Authorised Version.

For anyone to say that the Bible - the Word of God is not needed is deluding themselves and denying the purified preserved Word of God, NO true diciple of Jesus would claim that scripture is invalid and not needed.
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-25-2008, 05:41 AM,
#8
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:God promised to preserve His Word.

Psalm 12: 6-7

" The words of the LORD are pure words; as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times, THOU SHALT KEEP THEM, O LORD, thoult shalt PRESERVE them from this generation for ever"

Jesus says - John 17:17

"God's WORD is truth"

What isnt clear about this? the word is written, it is preserved for all generations, it is truth and cannot be changed:

"....Scripture CONNOT be broken" John 10:35

800 million copies of the 1611 KJV have been printed with NO royalties paid. The original crown copyright of 1611 does NOT forbid anyone from printing the Authorised Version.

For anyone to say that the Bible - the Word of God is not needed is deluding themselves and denying the purified preserved Word of God, NO true diciple of Jesus would claim that scripture is invalid and not needed.

That's fascinating. And yet again proves nothing. Once again you come across as barely literate. I
implore you to please USE THE SPELL-CHECK. A little red line under a word such as "connot" means it's
wrong. More on point the Apocrypha was in the original KJV. That seems like a significant change to me.
Additionally, the Bible is true because it says so is self-serving, circular reasoning.

I can assume that you are a hypocrite about following the word, unless you go around stoning people to
death regularly. The OT god is portrayed as an insecure, violent, unjust, jealous, self-aggrandizing being.
That does NOT square with an eternal all-powerful, benevolent, and just being. You can spout all your
evangelizing garbage all you want, but that doesn't make you more right or more pious despite how much
you want it to be so.

I know plenty of people who are Christians but reject the OT in it's entirety. Are they right? Maybe. Are
they wrong? Maybe. But you don't know anymore than the rest of us, no matter how much you want to
pretend otherwise. I know you're scared. You don't want to die and because of that you've put all of this
investment in living forever. That's fine but why don't you take a minute to appreciate the gift that you've
been given to live and do right by God because you want to and not because you're afraid of damnation.
And for Christ's sake (and I mean that literally) stop damning other people just because they attribute
a more positive conception of God than the OT or because they search for truth in a slightly different way.
Reply
05-25-2008, 07:59 AM,
#9
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
I dont like 'spell checks', makes one lazy, i'll get back 2 it and change it, or usually somone corrects me, my keyboard typing skills are 3rd rate, and i just barely pass as computer literate really. LOL
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-25-2008, 08:51 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-25-2008, 11:20 AM by trueaim.)
#10
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:That's fascinating. And yet again proves nothing. Once again you come across as barely literate. I
implore you to please USE THE SPELL-CHECK. A little red line under a word such as "connot" means it's
wrong. More on point the Apocrypha was in the original KJV. That seems like a significant change to me.
Additionally, the Bible is true because it says so is self-serving, circular reasoning.

I can assume that you are a hypocrite about following the word, unless you go around stoning people to
death regularly. The OT god is portrayed as an insecure, violent, unjust, jealous, self-aggrandizing being.
That does NOT square with an eternal all-powerful, benevolent, and just being. You can spout all your
evangelizing garbage all you want, but that doesn't make you more right or more pious despite how much
you want it to be so.

I know plenty of people who are Christians but reject the OT in it's entirety. Are they right? Maybe. Are
they wrong? Maybe. But you don't know anymore than the rest of us, no matter how much you want to
pretend otherwise. I know you're scared. You don't want to die and because of that you've put all of this
investment in living forever. That's fine but why don't you take a minute to appreciate the gift that you've
been given to live and do right by God because you want to and not because you're afraid of damnation.
And for Christ's sake (and I mean that literally) stop damning other people just because they attribute
a more positive conception of God than the OT or because they search for truth in a slightly different way.


The old covenant and the new covenant - 2 different covenants, that new one which came with the Lord Jesus did away with the old one, stonings are not part of the new covenant.

According to scripture a true believer does not go to heaven its 'Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven' that means that God's Kingdom will come to earth, not humans go to heaven, true believers who have died are unconcious, not in heaven but held in an unconcious state and are awaiting resurrection at the return of Christ where they will be given a bodily resurrection even though they do not have a body after the first death as it rots or is destroyed, but their body will be returned to them and before Christ will be judged according to the deeds and thoughts in the flesh, to see if they will be counted with Christ and gain the eternal kingdom that is coming to earth. Salvation is by faith - faith being arrived at through understanding and the grasping of the truth of Christ's Divinty and His Gospel. The individual cannot be saved by his own works but only through the Christ Lord Jesus.

I am certain of the truth and have faith in Jesus unto death, even if I get sent to hell or recieve entry into the eternal kingdom with a new uncorruptable immortal body. I ask for no sign or assurance as to whether I will receive eternal life from God, I ask for forgiveness of sins simply because they were sins and offer my life so that God may find some purpose in me.

An understanding and recognition of the truth in the OT is essential to understanding and recognition of the truth in the NT.

God does not exist to love you, he has no need for your love either, Adam sinned once, only once and was sentenced to death and cast out of the God's presence, after that humans lived up to 1000 years of age, but through yet more sin our lives were shortened to around 600 years and then still further, and then down to 2day's miserably short several decades, we as a Creation are under the burden of many curses placed upon us by the Creator, there is no escape we are accursed, but God did not curse us because he is mean and sadistic, no, God is a just and righteous God who will not and can not tolerate sin. The fall of Man is our fault, it is all our fault and God has judged accordingly with wisdom. But we then come to the Messiah, the Promise our Saviour, born of God an act of divine Grace so that we may live again - John - 3:16
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-25-2008, 11:12 AM,
#11
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:An understanding and recognition of the truth in the OT is essential to understanding and recognition of the truth in the NT.

.......

John - 3:16

John 3:16 (King James Version)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


trueaim, why must one know either book to have faith in Jesus as Son of God, the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world ???



Jesus came saying - repent for the kingdom of god is at hand.
Love God and do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums all the law and the prophets !!!

How does one love God - by following the above rule.
How does one not sin - by following the above rule.

Really it's such a simple message, the books keep getting in the way. - Don't misunderstand me, I read the book - but it is not essential.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
05-25-2008, 12:06 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-25-2008, 12:07 PM by trueaim.)
#12
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
[/quote] name='jack' date='May 25 2008, 10:12 AM' post='139774']
trueaim, why must one know either book to have faith in Jesus as Son of God, the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world ???[quote]




one of greatest lies told is that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and Saviour and say a little prayer that you are saved. its not true.

Jesus says : Matthew 7:21-23

21 - "Not everyone who saith unto me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father who is in heaven"

22 - "Many will say 'Lord, Lord' have we not prophesised in thy name? and in thy name have we not cast out demons and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 - "And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

One may profess 'faith' but is that faith recognised by the Lord, many will say they have 'faith', but what backs up the faith? what is the foundation that your faith has been built upon? faith must be achieved through deeds, thoughts and actions and words until it becomes a total reality in your life and thus be witnessed by God, 'Faith' is demonstrated in your life, thats why the Bible says 'but he that DOETH the WILL of the FATHER who is in heaven', How can one know what the will of the father is if one does not know his word which he has given to all so that he may reveal himself to us?

Many say they have faith in Jesus, just go down to your local church, they will say to you 'yea i know Jesus' ahhh but, does He know you? do you demonstrate the word of the Father? or do you look for loopholes in it? a way around it? I like this ,but I dont like that, I perhaps dont like the way he did that, but I like the way he did that, do you use God when it suits you because you think he will do you good? Or do you let him crucify you, so that His Word lives in you forever. Its all about His Word you CANNOT DENY HIS WORD, ever not in the OT not in the NT, if you cant reconcile them you better start reading them hard to find out why, or find someone who will explain the importance of the OT and its relationship and bearing on the NT, it is essential, remember 'And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me', Does Christ Know you?, do you do the will of the father?
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-25-2008, 10:43 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-25-2008, 10:48 PM by jack.)
#13
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:one of greatest lies told is that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and Saviour and say a little prayer that you are saved. its not true.

Jesus says : Matthew 7:21-23

21 - "Not everyone who saith unto me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father who is in heaven"
......


One may profess 'faith' but is that faith recognised by the Lord, many will say they have 'faith', but what backs up the faith? what is the foundation that your faith has been built upon? faith must be achieved through deeds, thoughts and actions and words until it becomes a total reality in your life and thus be witnessed by God, 'Faith' is demonstrated in your life, thats why the Bible says 'but he that DOETH the WILL of the FATHER who is in heaven', How can one know what the will of the father is if one does not know his word which he has given to all so that he may reveal himself to us?

.....

Quote:you cant reconcile them you better start reading them hard to find out why, or find someone who will explain the importance of the OT and its relationship and bearing on the NT, it is essential, remember 'And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me', Does Christ Know you?, do you do the will of the father?
Do you know how well that I do or don't know the books ? - Sounds as though you think that you know how God feels about me. Do you ?
I love as much as I am capable of at this present time, and that is all that was asked of me, and the least I can do. That is the will of the Father.


Your post is perfect example of - the books complicating things, to the point of overlooking the "word" of God.

hmmm, what is the will of the Father ???
Again it is simple - Hear ye the word -
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: FOR THIS IS THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.
& again 15 chapters later -
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt LOVE THE LORD THY GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt LOVE THY NEIGHBOR as thyself. On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets.

This is KJV text - Don't you believe it ???


In all the complication you just might be losing the simple message. Of this simple message Jesus says - this is the sum of all the law and the prophets !!! (that would be - OT & NT)
How does one love God - by following the above advice.



I now quite trueaim, - I'm through, this is not fun or productive.
If you want to get tied down with doctrines and dogmas, so be it, that is your choice.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
05-25-2008, 11:04 PM,
#14
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:According to scripture a true believer does not go to heaven its 'Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven' that means that God's Kingdom will come to earth, not humans go to heaven, true believers who have died are unconscious, not in heaven but held in an unconscious state and are awaiting resurrection at the return of Christ where they will be given a bodily resurrection even though they do not have a body after the first death as it rots or is destroyed, but their body will be returned to them and before Christ will be judged according to the deeds and thoughts in the flesh, to see if they will be counted with Christ and gain the eternal kingdom that is coming to earth. Salvation is by faith - faith being arrived at through understanding and the grasping of the truth of Christ's Divinity and His Gospel. The individual cannot be saved by his own works but only through the Christ Lord Jesus.

Actually the earthly kingdom is Scolfield's interpretation and is really just repackaged Judaism. All of that
premellenialism stuff is a repudiation of what Christ claimed to be doing. I don't claim to have all the
answers to things and frankly am skeptical about many issues regarding any religion. What I look for is
truth. And whether I believe in it or not, the Bible is hugely significant to understanding the world because
it is so interconnected with political machinations of today. Aside from that I do see truth in much of it and
that's why I don't reject it out of hand while remaining somewhat skeptical about certain things. One thing I
know for sure though, from looking at the premellenial aspects, is that it is a fraud on what the text actually
says.

According to the text the earthly kingdom was a political kingdom promised in the 1st covenant. The
kingdom of Christ is a spiritual kingdom that was established when Christ was crucified and is not something
to come in the future. You are taking a worldly interpretation of one verse and ignoring the fact that it
contradicts scores of other passages about Christ's kingdom being now and spiritual. I'm not telling you
how to believe what you want to and hopefully you don't take a dismissive attitude because of our previous
religious exchanges but you might want to reexamine what the nature of Christ's kingdom really is, since
that is one of the major points of the religion. See Jack's comment about the kingdom being at hand, (ie
not 2000 years in the future.)
Reply
05-26-2008, 02:23 AM,
#15
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:
Quote:An understanding and recognition of the truth in the OT is essential to understanding and recognition of the truth in the NT.

.......

John - 3:16

John 3:16 (King James Version)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


trueaim, why must one know either book to have faith in Jesus as Son of God, the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world ???



Jesus came saying - repent for the kingdom of god is at hand.
Love God and do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums all the law and the prophets !!!

How does one love God - by following the above rule.
How does one not sin - by following the above rule.

Really it's such a simple message, the books keep getting in the way. - Don't misunderstand me, I read the book - but it is not essential.


You see, you are here advocating that the Bible as the Word of God and therefore the Law of God is not essential, you also say that you dont understand it and you dont like it personally and it frustrates you, this is the essence of sin, its 'I will take what I want and What I see from the Bible and claim that is what suits me personally' To say that the Holy Bible is getting in the way of your own personal want and needs is breaking the very Law you are claiming to abide by.

You can tell an Apostate so easily cause they almost always gp around saying New Age doctrine under the guise of Christianity, basically what you say is 'do away with those books' 'we dont need them' 'all we need is love'! Thats New Age! you are nothing more than a thinly disguised New Ager!

'The Book is not essential' - 'ill do my own thing and believe in my own love' thats self-love, just cause you can say the word dosen't mean you know what it means. Your just taking certain provisions and certain doctrines that suit you personally than denying the rest, that will never work, ever.
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply


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