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re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
05-26-2008, 02:51 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-26-2008, 04:05 AM by Melchor.)
#16
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:You see, you are here advocating that the Bible as the Word of God and therefore the Law of God is not essential, you also say that you dont understand it and you dont like it personally and it frustrates you, this is the essence of sin, its 'I will take what I want and What I see from the Bible and claim that is what suits me personally' To say that the Holy Bible is getting in the way of your own personal want and needs is breaking the very Law you are claiming to abide by.

You can tell an Apostate so easily cause they almost always gp around saying New Age doctrine under the guise of Christianity, basically what you say is 'do away with those books' 'we dont need them' 'all we need is love'! Thats New Age! you are nothing more than a thinly disguised New Ager!

'The Book is not essential' - 'ill do my own thing and believe in my own love' thats self-love, just cause you can say the word dosen't mean you know what it means. Your just taking certain provisions and certain doctrines that suit you personally than denying the rest, that will never work, ever.

No. I said I don't have all the answers which is why I look to all sources. I admit there is spiritual truth in
the Bible but I dispute the fact that it was created by got. I accept spiritual truth from other sources as well,
similarly. I never claimed to be Christian but I do understand what it says. And taking the book for argument sake as valid, you have the kingdom of Christ concept totally wrong. That was the point I was
making. I'm not a "new ager" or a Christian etc... New agers go to gurus and ask other people to find the
truth for them, much like Christians thump a Bible all day and never ponder what it means. I use the
faculties God gave me to find truth, mainly by questioning everything. But my point stands that earthly
kingdom is Judaism not Christianity.

Edit: My bad. I guess I just assumed that block quote was me since you usually jump on everything I say.
But I stand by my claim that earthly kingdom is Christian Zionism (Judaism)
Reply
05-26-2008, 03:58 AM,
#17
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
'Jack' not you, read the thread
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-29-2008, 12:49 AM,
#18
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:
Quote:According to scripture a true believer does not go to heaven its 'Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven' that means that God's Kingdom will come to earth, not humans go to heaven, true believers who have died are unconscious, not in heaven but held in an unconscious state and are awaiting resurrection at the return of Christ where they will be given a bodily resurrection even though they do not have a body after the first death as it rots or is destroyed, but their body will be returned to them and before Christ will be judged according to the deeds and thoughts in the flesh, to see if they will be counted with Christ and gain the eternal kingdom that is coming to earth. Salvation is by faith - faith being arrived at through understanding and the grasping of the truth of Christ's Divinity and His Gospel. The individual cannot be saved by his own works but only through the Christ Lord Jesus.

Actually the earthly kingdom is Scolfield's interpretation and is really just repackaged Judaism. All of that
premellenialism stuff is a repudiation of what Christ claimed to be doing. I don't claim to have all the
answers to things and frankly am skeptical about many issues regarding any religion. What I look for is
truth. And whether I believe in it or not, the Bible is hugely significant to understanding the world because
it is so interconnected with political machinations of today. Aside from that I do see truth in much of it and
that's why I don't reject it out of hand while remaining somewhat skeptical about certain things. One thing I
know for sure though, from looking at the premellenial aspects, is that it is a fraud on what the text actually
says.

According to the text the earthly kingdom was a political kingdom promised in the 1st covenant. The
kingdom of Christ is a spiritual kingdom that was established when Christ was crucified and is not something
to come in the future. You are taking a worldly interpretation of one verse and ignoring the fact that it
contradicts scores of other passages about Christ's kingdom being now and spiritual. I'm not telling you
how to believe what you want to and hopefully you don't take a dismissive attitude because of our previous
religious exchanges but you might want to reexamine what the nature of Christ's kingdom really is, since
that is one of the major points of the religion.
See Jack's comment about the kingdom being at hand, (ie
not 2000 years in the future.)
Gee Melchor, looks as tho you received the old dismissive attitude.
They didn't even try to address your point, too bad, it was a nice, polite post, - would of been an interesting subject for them to ponder.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
05-29-2008, 12:54 AM,
#19
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:An understanding and recognition of the truth in the OT is essential to understanding and recognition of the truth in the NT.

.......

John - 3:16

John 3:16 (King James Version)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


trueaim, why must one know either book to have faith in Jesus as Son of God, the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world ???



Jesus came saying - repent for the kingdom of god is at hand.
Love God and do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums all the law and the prophets !!!

How does one love God - by following the above rule.
How does one not sin - by following the above rule.

Really it's such a simple message, the books keep getting in the way. - Don't misunderstand me, I read the book - but it is not essential.


You see, you are here advocating that the Bible as the Word of God and therefore the Law of God is not essential, you also say that you dont understand it and you dont like it personally and it frustrates you, this is the essence of sin, its 'I will take what I want and What I see from the Bible and claim that is what suits me personally' To say that the Holy Bible is getting in the way of your own personal want and needs is breaking the very Law you are claiming to abide by.

You can tell an Apostate so easily cause they almost always gp around saying New Age doctrine under the guise of Christianity, basically what you say is 'do away with those books' 'we dont need them' 'all we need is love'! Thats New Age! you are nothing more than a thinly disguised New Ager!

'The Book is not essential' - 'ill do my own thing and believe in my own love' thats self-love, just cause you can say the word dosen't mean you know what it means. Your just taking certain provisions and certain doctrines that suit you personally than denying the rest, that will never work, ever.
that's funny, your a hoot trueaim


So, with the debate on books being over, we now have a new complaint.
OK, I'll give you another reply.

This looks like a case of - "splinter inspection."



Let me understand - A= the books are essential - and now B= love is wrong.

Don't you believe Jesus, when he says LOVE is the fulfillment of all the OT law and of the prophets ??? - It's right there in you KJV Bible.
Maybe you will believe Peter or Paul

"And above all things have fervent LOVE among yourselves: for LOVE shall cover the multitude of sins."

"Owe nothing to anyone except to LOVE one another; for he who LOVES his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELFLOVE does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore LOVE is the fulfillment of the law."



ah I see, "new ager" ok, I'll just add that on to growing list of labels that I am acquiring here at concen

fundie
caveman
christian
reptile hybrid
bigot
carcass eater
apostate
+ new ager
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
05-29-2008, 01:31 AM,
#20
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
The AV1611 is not God's perfectly preserved word. Jesus Christ is.

<span style="color:#FFFFFF">"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." 2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV
Reply
05-29-2008, 02:42 AM,
#21
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:An understanding and recognition of the truth in the OT is essential to understanding and recognition of the truth in the NT.

.......

John - 3:16

John 3:16 (King James Version)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


trueaim, why must one know either book to have faith in Jesus as Son of God, the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world ???



Jesus came saying - repent for the kingdom of god is at hand.
Love God and do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums all the law and the prophets !!!

How does one love God - by following the above rule.
How does one not sin - by following the above rule.

Really it's such a simple message, the books keep getting in the way. - Don't misunderstand me, I read the book - but it is not essential.


You see, you are here advocating that the Bible as the Word of God and therefore the Law of God is not essential, you also say that you dont understand it and you dont like it personally and it frustrates you, this is the essence of sin, its 'I will take what I want and What I see from the Bible and claim that is what suits me personally' To say that the Holy Bible is getting in the way of your own personal want and needs is breaking the very Law you are claiming to abide by.

You can tell an Apostate so easily cause they almost always gp around saying New Age doctrine under the guise of Christianity, basically what you say is 'do away with those books' 'we dont need them' 'all we need is love'! Thats New Age! you are nothing more than a thinly disguised New Ager!

'The Book is not essential' - 'ill do my own thing and believe in my own love' thats self-love, just cause you can say the word dosen't mean you know what it means. Your just taking certain provisions and certain doctrines that suit you personally than denying the rest, that will never work, ever.
that's funny, your a hoot trueaim


So, with the debate on books being over, we now have a new complaint.
OK, I'll give you another reply.

This looks like a case of - "splinter inspection."



Let me understand - A= the books are essential - and now B= love is wrong.

Don't you believe Jesus, when he says LOVE is the fulfillment of all the OT law and of the prophets ??? - It's right there in you KJV Bible.
Maybe you will believe Peter or Paul

"And above all things have fervent LOVE among yourselves: for LOVE shall cover the multitude of sins."

"Owe nothing to anyone except to LOVE one another; for he who LOVES his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELFLOVE does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore LOVE is the fulfillment of the law."







ah I see, "new ager" ok, I'll just add that on to growing list of labels that I am acquiring here at concen

fundie
caveman
christian
reptile hybrid
bigot
carcass eater
apostate
+ new ager


OK thats it, thats the whole law according to you, thats the message of Jesus for you - LOVE - like the beatles song 'all you need is love'! you havent understood this new commandment that Jesus has brought, it dosent do away with the commandments given to Moses it just raises the bar even further for now you must also obey and LOVE the commandments given to Moses PLUS ALL OF JESUS' COMMANDMENTS - "Whosoever loveth me keepth my commandments" Matthew 24:35 - see how that is plural - commandments!
how many new commandments are there from Jesus for us to love and obey; 125! thats One Hundred and Twenty Five new COMMANDS to follow, and some count more maybe as many as 154!

Your reading of scripture and the inerrant word of God is wrong, completely and utterly wrong, no wonder you want to get rid of scripture and follow a song title, you cannot read correctly, you need the Bible more than ever if you think that LOVE is the only commandment, I count 125.....
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-29-2008, 04:52 AM,
#22
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:The AV1611 is not God's perfectly preserved word. Jesus Christ is.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." 2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV
you picked a winner plasticfan :smile:


Quote:OK thats it, thats the whole law according to you, thats the message of Jesus for you - LOVE - like the beatles song 'all you need is love'! you havent understood this new commandment that Jesus has brought, it dosent do away with the commandments given to Moses it just raises the bar even further for now you must also obey and LOVE the commandments given to Moses PLUS ALL OF JESUS' COMMANDMENTS - "Whosoever loveth me keepth my commandments" Matthew 24:35 - see how that is plural - commandments!
how many new commandments are there from Jesus for us to love and obey; 125! thats One Hundred and Twenty Five new COMMANDS to follow, and some count more maybe as many as 154!

Your reading of scripture and the inerrant word of God is wrong, completely and utterly wrong, no wonder you want to get rid of scripture and follow a song title, you cannot read correctly, you need the Bible more than ever if you think that LOVE is the only commandment, I count 125.....

my my, so hateful there trueaim, you've progressed to a personal attack at the promotion of Jesus the Lamb of God and the golden rule.:umm:
(btw, Matthew 24:35 is - "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.")


Fulfillment - The act of fulfilling; accomplishment; completion; as, the fulfillment of prophecy.
Love is the FULFILLMENT of the law.


sounds to me trueaim that you do not chose to be a christian, but rather a Jew. With all your many laws, you are preaching Judaism.


like I said SPLINTER INSPECTION :wink:
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
05-29-2008, 06:33 AM,
#23
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:The AV1611 is not God's perfectly preserved word. Jesus Christ is.

<span style="color:#FFFFFF">"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." 2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV


The PRESERVED WORD IS THE HOLY BIBLE specifically the KJV1611.

God is the Word and Jesus is the Word made flesh.

The Holy Bible is God's perfectly preserved word if you say it isnt then you are calling both Jesus and God liars as they have testified that their word is written and true

In trying to take a cheap shot at me you deny the truth in his word and His promise to keep His word preserved for all time no matter how many human fools try to get rid of it, and praise the Lord for that. and especially in the context of a discussion on Old Testament which obviously predates the birth of Jesus, I mean C'MON, how can you not see that? If you 'plasticfan' wanna go new agee with ol' 'jack' and start singing beatles tunes and call it scripture go right ahead, but your making a mistake, THE WORD has been PRESERVED, its set, NO excuses, men wrote it down they were inspired by God himself, He has it written the way He wants it, until the end of time, you may not think its important, may not be essential for you, BUT I need every Word of that Holy Bible! every single word and every single quotation mark has been ordained by God Himself and it CANNOT be broken and cannot be changed, that is final, it is his decree and woe be to any man who says otherwise.
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-29-2008, 06:42 AM,
#24
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
if it was God's perfectly preserved word, it wouldn't need revision.

http://members.aol.com/pilgrimpub/revision.htm
Reply
05-29-2008, 06:55 AM,
#25
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
yea obey with love that completes it not only obey, but YOU WILL love to obey in order to fullfill all the OT commandments and all the new commandments all 125 and more of them.

Jesus does not say 'all you need is love' that my lost friend is your 'SPLINTER INJECTION' as you attempt to reduce Jesus down to your own personal level contained to your own human emotional need and wants - love your own personal feelings, you could not be further away from the message of Jesus. And to claim that you dont need the Holy Bible to do this is exactly right of course you dont need it because you dont have the full message, you just picked out a couple of lines that pleased you and used them for yourself, course you dont need the rest you just throw it away, take a bite then chuck the rest, but us true believers DIE without the whole of the Bible, God promised to keep his word and that Word is written, all of it, and you reduce it and belittle it and disect it to find the juiciest part and gobble it down and say 'I got my bit' Well that MR IS - BLASPHMEY! and I would not be a Christian if I were to accept that with out asking you to consider what you have said namely - 'the books are not essential' and repent on that repent hard. That is a disgrace, how can you say that, and then to dare call me a Jew because I wont accept that type of unchristian behaviour, it borders on Satanic - this new age euro style only love required, that is the whole of the Law - that is NOT what Jesus is saying 'the books are not essential' ARE YOU CRAZY!
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-29-2008, 07:31 AM,
#26
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:if it was God's perfectly preserved word, it wouldn't need revision.

http://members.aol.com/pilgrimpub/revision.htm


God didnt speak to the ancient hebrews in modern english did he? Like I have stated several times that the KJV is the closest we have in English to the word of God, how else would we read it if it wasnt translated and revised or updated for modern readers where spelling and the like has changed or evolved - that means it is preserved and its the closest we have to it, I mean God didnt speak in English, it had to be translated into english like any other language, but it remains of course the Holy Bible penned by humans I add so they make mistakes no? But the word is still preserved just like i said - a revised update is based upon the 1611 which is the best English translation we have which is what I stated.
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
05-29-2008, 09:27 AM,
#27
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:if it was God's perfectly preserved word, it wouldn't need revision.

http://members.aol.com/pilgrimpub/revision.htm

dont bother with those rummagers they use the wrong translations, just divinty school rummagers tryin make a name for themselves get all their twisted spin 'facts' wrong again.
&Is not my word like... a HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces&? Jeremiah 23:29
Reply
06-12-2008, 02:17 AM,
#28
re: Understanding Islam - OT violence
Quote:yea obey with love that completes it not only obey, but YOU WILL love to obey in order to fullfill all the OT commandments and all the new commandments all 125 and more of them.

Jesus does not say 'all you need is love' that my lost friend is your 'SPLINTER INJECTION' as you attempt to reduce Jesus down to your own personal level contained to your own human emotional need and wants - love your own personal feelings, you could not be further away from the message of Jesus. And to claim that you dont need the Holy Bible to do this is exactly right of course you dont need it because you dont have the full message, you just picked out a couple of lines that pleased you and used them for yourself, course you dont need the rest you just throw it away, take a bite then chuck the rest, but us true believers DIE without the whole of the Bible, God promised to keep his word and that Word is written, all of it, and you reduce it and belittle it and disect it to find the juiciest part and gobble it down and say 'I got my bit' Well that MR IS - BLASPHMEY! and I would not be a Christian if I were to accept that with out asking you to consider what you have said namely - 'the books are not essential' and repent on that repent hard. That is a disgrace, how can you say that, and then to dare call me a Jew because I wont accept that type of unchristian behaviour, it borders on Satanic - this new age euro style only love required, that is the whole of the Law - that is NOT what Jesus is saying 'the books are not essential' ARE YOU CRAZY!

yes, oh so crazy;)

ROTFL, so hard I nearly pissed myself.

oh my, all the drama - DIE without the bible.

trueaim, are you joking here at concen, just pulling legs ???

the Living Word of God is within you, not in a book - it is SPIRIT, it is LOVE, it is Jesus the Lamb of God.

Jesus is the WORD, not the bible - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

If the Bible is the word of God, then God is four, not three. Father, Son (who is the Word Jn 1:14), the Holy Spirit and the word (Bible)? I don't think so!! Scripture tells us 1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

If you believe so strongly in the OT God as a killer, war monger and doombringer then you should study more on the life of Jesus Christ, for He was the personification of the Word and will of God. Violence is brought on us by us from a lack of LOVE, unselfish, no strings attached, altruistic Love.


If you do not love me, that is your problem, I care less. But guess what trueaim - I care for you, and I don't wish any ill will on you or anyone else. (tho respecting you would be much easier if you would quit dooming us all to hell) My wish for all is that we can overcome ourselves and find true altruistic love for each other. Then the kingdom of God will truly exist for all of us, even the pharisaic money cult, that hates us all.

If your not joking, what then is you explanation of OT violence ???

Unless its a reasonable one I'm sticking with, it's a metaphor. If not a metaphor of Gods awesome power, then a metaphor for each of us individually.
A big giant parable meant to teach that to become spirit one must either shed their flesh willingly or have their flesh killed through the refiners flame. In other words - lose the ego, and gain the love.
The stories are there to teach us something about ourselves (all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness) not for us to use as a literal weapon against others, this is missing the entire point.



btw, if I was really a "new ager" I wouldn't need Jesus or waste any of my time here promoting him. I could be my own god, with or without love. Plus I could avoid the "christian" label, and just be a big old bitch.

Funny tho, some here claim to be "christian" and could care less how utterly offensive and hateful they are.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply


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