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The Evolution 'Hoax'
03-28-2009, 04:44 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-28-2009, 06:11 PM by JazzRoc.)
The Evolution "Hoax"
Quote:prehistoric cultures were very much in harmony with their surroundings and neighbours, often paying them great respect.
Let's check with the Cro Magnons... Ah, you can't get any response from a bone... the South American jungle, then, woah, don't want to end up a shrunken head (if you haven't already pre-shrunk it).

Quote:i think it's way too simplistic to say, "everything that fucked him up was".
KISS.

Quote:why does it have to be a weapon of violence? - she was capturing termites
Yes, the sweet thing - she was showing them the way to the dark deep recesses of the stomach... no violence there, move on please...

Quote:the whole notion of the 'Enlightenment':LOL:and rationality:LOL:is complete poppycock).
Yeah mate. Swap you your computer terminal for my quill pen...

Quote:is it based on a wave or a particle as the primary element, or are you guessing on all subsequent hypotheses?
Your lot shout the evidence: "I believe" (without evidence). CREDO VACUUS TESTIMONIAE. Creo sin evidencia. THAT is the evidence.

You arguments are worthless and hypocritical. You live with the benefits of science, you argue with me using a medium (the invention of which I played a part in), constantly decrying it.

It's obscene.
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03-28-2009, 05:10 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-28-2009, 05:28 PM by JazzRoc.)
The Evolution "Hoax"
Jack, I'm not arguing that there is only science in the Universe, far from it.

My understanding of science leads me to believe that the mind of every one of us is practically of the same order of size as the Universe, and each one of us is a precious and unique individual which is here for only a short time, never to be duplicated.

Within our truly vast minds lies almost infinite capability. We have a powerful imagination which runs a successful simulation of the external world, driven only by our limited senses. We can use our powers to good or evil, but that's an internal matter, for the universe is without either. Religion and Faith live within the interstices of everyone's mind, without a doubt, because our inner space is so vast. These are areas which are in a sense undisciplined, and should have been redirected to higher tasks.

It is by co-operation and science that we may extend our powers to make the best of our people and our planet.

Science is a direct way of addressing the material world. Hypothesize, test, theorize, predict, construct.

Co-operation is achieved by education, which is the building of practical and scientific understanding. All of us must find some common ground in order to work together on higher tasks. This common ground should have begun in our early schooling with a careful analysis and explanation of what each of us is, in our uniqueness. Followed by an expansion of our understanding of our communities, our counties, our countries, our whole world. But grounded in a complete understanding of ourselves first.

Technical understanding is required even for the arts, in order to produce the art. There is no place where science doesn't have a role and almost no place that religion HAS a role, save for our history, or the history of our art and music.

The higher tasks, which I haven't yet defined, are OBVIOUS. The world is rapidly (to coin an apt phrase) going to Hell in a handbasket.

Our task is to reverse its course, and get the world to Eden. Time to stick your head in the sand?

It is only an impossible task if you believe it is...
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03-28-2009, 05:39 PM,
The Evolution "Hoax"
Quote:I'm not religious although I feel that the explanation may be just a little bit oversimplistic:)
Let's keep it stupidly simple for now.

Quote:Secular humanism is a relatively new concept - there were surely scientists mapping out the elementary table, watching apples fall from trees, quantifying time and space, jumping out of the bath, cartographing celestial movements, geometry, biology, etc etc before faith went out of the window.
Of course there were. Science is a late distinction. It had to be born somewhere, somewhen.

Quote:I don't see why belief in immanence necessarily MUST preclude a scientific understanding...
I agree. I'm quite sure that science was sharpened upon that. The mind is a wonderful thing. I'm not sure I could distinguish the excitement of science from immanence at all...

Quote:Two people here have recently written of dreams which, for all intent and purpose were premonitions - science can't map that unless we fathom time - and at that point it ALL goes out of the window.
It will be a while before anyone's mind gets "mapped" - if ever. I certainly regard the dream state as a wonderful freebie... We all have a personal universe...
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03-28-2009, 05:50 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-28-2009, 05:54 PM by mothandrust.)
The Evolution "Hoax"
Quote:
Quote:prehistoric cultures were very much in harmony with their surroundings and neighbours, often paying them great respect.
Let's check with the Cro Magnons... Ah, you can't get any response from a bone... the South American jungle, then, woah, don't want to end up a shrunken head (if you haven't already pre-shrunk it).

Quote:i think it's way too simplistic to say, "everything that fucked him up was".
KISS.

Quote:why does it have to be a weapon of violence? - she was capturing termites
Yes, the sweet thing - she was showing them the way to the dark deep recesses of the stomach... no violence there, move on please...

Quote:the whole notion of the 'Enlightenment':LOL:and rationality:LOL:is complete poppycock).
Yeah mate. Swap you your computer terminal for my quill pen...

Quote:is it based on a wave or a particle as the primary element, or are you guessing on all subsequent hypotheses?
Your lot shout the evidence: "I believe" (without evidence). CREDO VACUUS TESTIMONIUM. Creo sin evidencia. THAT is the evidence.

You arguments are worthless and hypocritical. You live with the benefits of science, you argue with me using a medium (the invention of which I played a part in), constantly decrying it.

It's obscene.
look in a mirror JR

you answer none of my points and just resort to insults. it's pathetic. grow up JR, it's never too late,

[Image: avatar8548_4.gif]

"Wisdom tends to grow in proportion to one's awareness of one's ignorance."
Vitam Impendere Vero
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03-28-2009, 06:04 PM,
The Evolution "Hoax"
Quote:you answer none of my points and just resort to insults
I answered every one, and described your behaviour. We're using a common language. Are you an American?
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03-28-2009, 06:10 PM,
The Evolution "Hoax"
It is my opinion not that it matters, that not just JR but EVERYONE should take a long hard look not into a mirror but into ourselves!!!

JJ
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03-28-2009, 06:38 PM,
The Evolution "Hoax"
Quote:
Quote:you answer none of my points and just resort to insults
I answered every one, and described your behaviour. We're using a common language. Are you an American?
err... that's your deluded belief

i'll not waste my time repeating them, hopefully others will see your hot air and bluster for what it is.

and no i'm not American, i was born and grew up around London at similar time to yourself - had you forgotten or is it meant to be some sort of insult?

Vitam Impendere Vero
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03-28-2009, 06:51 PM,
The Evolution "Hoax"
Quote:Without RELIGION and OCCULT would this thread even be taking place!!!

Welcome to Hell...
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03-28-2009, 07:03 PM,
The Evolution "Hoax"
Quote:is it meant to be some sort of insult?
The Yanks and the Brits: two nations separated by a common language.

A joke...:rolleyes:
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04-02-2009, 06:57 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-02-2009, 07:20 AM by ~Wheres Raven~.)
The Evolution "Hoax"
JazzRoc Wrote:Before stone age man was in the stone age, he told himself and others stories to explain the inexplicable. Events "conspired" to make his life nasty, brutish and short. Larger predators were demonic spirits - the weather was a demonic spirit - everything that fucked him up was.


It sounds to me like you're explaining that age/time how you would think of it if you were there now, because since you weren't there, you have no understanding of what people thought about back then, you are only choosing to accept the current stories about "the stone age" told by people now in "the plastic age".

Scientific explanation is also a story... and to the believers, it also protects them from ideas that may be scary... like being "fucked up" in "the stone age" again, having a "brutish" or "short life", or failing to get to utopia/heaven/eden.


JazzRoc Wrote:(Story-telling mode)Then in desperation one day the ape prey hit a predator with a sharp stone, and science emerged.(/Story-telling mode)

Everything is inexplicable (except in terms of all-powerful spirits) until one chooses to do otherwise.

When science COMES IN, faith GOES OUT.

Just look at the joke that Creationism makes of natural science. A true case of "there's nothing to see here, move on"...

Religion is a FAILURE to be scientific. This isn't a belief, for I have PROOF, and without proof, science also fails to be scientific.


Science: "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation."... was always here, practiced by all.

Science as a religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"... tells a story about an event called life, the event happens prior to the explanation.
Even though the explanation is part of the event, it always explains the past --> which is not part of the event.
Understanding happens during the event, the story happens after the event.
So I would agree that science as a religion(a story) happens after the event/understanding.

I think you can only hold onto faith if you are NOT believing in someone elses story.

Faith is something different to me than how it is described in the dictionary.


JazzRoc Wrote:Co-operation is achieved by education, which is the building of practical and scientific understanding. All of us must find some common ground in order to work together on higher tasks. This common ground should have begun in our early schooling with a careful analysis and explanation of what each of us is, in our uniqueness. Followed by an expansion of our understanding of our communities, our counties, our countries, our whole world. But grounded in a complete understanding of ourselves first.

"All of us must" is a belief.
"Should have" is a belief.
"complete understanding" is a belief, and not possible.

These beliefs are based on your idea of utopia... which is an ideal place you've not experienced yet... a place you HOPE science as a religion will take you.
To me, this perfect and ideal"utopia" place has always been here and always will be... that's faith to me. And that's why I don't care for scientific explanations/stories (other than for entertainment).
But we all DO science (always have and always will)... and we all DO evolution(change, movement) (always have and always will).
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04-03-2009, 01:12 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-03-2009, 01:34 AM by JazzRoc.)
The Evolution "Hoax"
accept the current stories about "the stone age" told by people now in "the plastic age".
No. I lived as a child with a peasant indistinguishable from someone in the Iron Age. I accept no modern stories - save that of science.

Scientific explanation is also a story
Followed by explanation, material evidence, creating proof, verifying theories, making predictions.

... and to the believers, it also protects them from ideas that may be scary... like being "fucked up" in "the stone age" again, having a "brutish" or "short life", or failing to get to utopia/heaven/eden
Yeah, sure, before science, women didn't die in childbirth, couples didn't have maybe ten children (with maybe two survivors), there was no disease, and you weren't old at thirty-five, and dead before fifty.

Science: "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through (evidence), observation and experimentation."... was always here, practised by all.
No it wasn't. I added "evidence", corrected "practiced" to "practised".

Science as a religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"... tells a story about an event called life, the event happens prior to the explanation.
Science is NOT A RELIGION AT ALL. It is a set of hypotheses, checked by others, with evidence proving something, and enabling further hypotheses to be made.

Even though the explanation is part of the event, it always explains the past --> which is not part of the event. Understanding happens during the event, the story happens after the event.
Science explains the FUTURE. It is truly PREDICTIVE.

So I would agree that science as a religion(a story) happens after the event/understanding.
Science is NOT A RELIGION AT ALL. An event is OBSERVED, a hypothesis is MADE, an experiment is DEVISED, a conclusion is DERIVED, a theory is FORMULATED.

I think you can only hold onto faith if you are NOT believing in someone elses story.
Faith is ALWAYS believing someone else's story - without material evidence. You can only hold onto SCIENCE if you are not believing someone else's FAITH.

Faith is something different to me than how it is described in the dictionary.
I can tell...

"All of us must" is a belief. "Should have" is a belief. "complete understanding" is a belief, and not possible.
Yeah, they're my beliefs, but NOT my SCIENCE. For "complete" read "the best possible" - my bad.

These beliefs are based on your idea of utopia...
Yes. I've been a designer all my life. I envisage improvements, and make them happen. I can. I DO.

To me, this perfect and ideal"utopia" place has always been here and always will be... that's faith to me. And that's why I don't care for scientific explanations/stories (other than for entertainment).
To me, there will never be a utopia while there are people who believe science is a religion. The practical and direct application of science to our real world is the only way to construct utopia: it isn't going to happen if the world is chock full of ill-informed deadbeats.

But we all DO science
You DEFINITELY don't.

we all DO evolution
No. We all MUTATE. The world will select or reject us.

THAT.....is Evolution.
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09-06-2011, 01:01 AM,
RE: The Evolution 'Hoax'
if people still doubt that one species could evolve to another. this thread is evidence of one conversation evolving into another.

I rest my case...
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