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The Electric Car
01-16-2009, 03:59 PM,
#76
The Electric Car
Quote:I dont agree that hydrogen will be a problem free concept. If there is going to more water vapor being produced by this action, i'm not sure this will help with global warming. water i the air doesn't lower temps:)

From what I've learned when experimenting with HHO gas last summer, 1L of h2o expands to 1800L of HHO gas so conversly you'd have to burn quite a bit of it to generate any significant water.
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01-16-2009, 04:10 PM,
#77
The Electric Car
compared to normal internal combustion engine? they produce water vapor too. Im just thinking on a global millions of cars scenario. I just dont want to replace nasty chems only to find that its the water that does it.
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01-16-2009, 08:27 PM,
#78
The Electric Car
No, I'm refering to burning HHO IN an ICE. Your only byproduct of combustion is water, and you'd only generate 1L of liquid water for every 1800L of HHO gas consumed.
I'm sure water vapour acts like a GHG...anyone from hot and humid place will agree, but otoh, 75% of our planet is covered in the stuff it some of that will evaporate anyhow.
You'r tailpipe wont make a difference.
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01-17-2009, 03:38 PM,
#79
The Electric Car
Quote:75% of our planet is covered in the stuff it some of that will evaporate anyhow. Your tailpipe wont make a difference.
Certainly not compared with the work you would have done heating the atmosphere in the first place (to make HHO).
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01-17-2009, 07:10 PM,
#80
The Electric Car
Quote:
Quote:75% of our planet is covered in the stuff it some of that will evaporate anyhow. Your tailpipe wont make a difference.
Certainly not compared with the work you would have done heating the atmosphere in the first place (to make HHO).

Your splitting water, not boiling it.
I have an HHO generator in my car and would agree that it does get hotter with increased amperage,
but boiling water on a stove to make tea puts out far more water vapour and heat than my HHO gen does.

The last time I drove from Calgary to Lloydminster AB, (550km) my HHO gen only used about a 1/2L of water...
that's nothing. (I saved about 10L gas using the HHO)
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01-18-2009, 01:11 AM,
#81
The Electric Car
Quote:The last time I drove from Calgary to Lloydminster AB, (550km) my HHO gen only used about a 1/2L of water...that's nothing. (I saved about 10L gas using the HHO)
Sorry, I've missed these details. Could you fill in info here? Type of car, motive power, weight, av. speed, gas consumed?
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01-20-2009, 01:48 AM,
#82
The Electric Car
Quote:
Quote:The last time I drove from Calgary to Lloydminster AB, (550km) my HHO gen only used about a 1/2L of water...that's nothing. (I saved about 10L gas using the HHO)
Sorry, I've missed these details. Could you fill in info here? Type of car, motive power, weight, av. speed, gas consumed?

Okay, I'll do my best.. this is amateur science or a best attempt at.

I had a job last year that required a week on/off. The job (door to door) was 550km...556 actually.
I drove there and back twice a month and being an HHO (as a suplement to gas) experimentor
I drove as consistently as I could on all trips to test things... ie: with/without HHO, how increased
electrolyte levels and current counterbalanced the draw and drag placed on my alternator.

I made about 10 round trips in all and used that to gauge results. There were no plug/filter changes
between any trips. I always filled to spilling out FULL before leaving.

I also made it a point to do certain things but not others... for instance.... even though I was out for max milage,
I wouldn't draft large trucks, I would push my own wind etc... I tried to make it as fair as I could.

Luckily the wind was moderate on all trips.

I often used the drive from Calgary to Olds (Alberta, CA) as a yardstick to measure in transit results... normally from spilling out the
neck full, Calgary to Olds, the bottom side of the needle would be just touching the top side of the 3/4's full mark. That's 90km away.
My best run with HHO sw me go 135km (from spilling out full) to the same point on the needle.

By the time I arrived 556km away... w/out: needle over empty w/: 3/16th (3/4 of the last 1/4)

Now, people will say that it is theoretically impossible to place a drag/drain on my alternator and thus more engine work yet gain from
the resultant HHO in energy payback.... you can't get out more than was put in.. laws of physics, thermodynamics... I agree, BUT if you have a highly modified
engine like my rx-7 has, there is so much WASTED gas being pumped out the tailpipe a tiny bit of HHO is like a fuse to dynamite.

Do rx-7 waste gas? Yes, notoriously... (rx7 + flame) http://ca.youtube.com/results?search_query..._type=&aq=f

The Hydrogen atom is so small it easily mingles with the charge and it all burns better...more power, better milage.

You wanted details.. okay, do the math.... my milage is STILL terrible! LOL

1988 rx-7 gxl, lots of weight reduction... 1245kg me in it, and an extra seat and a spare tire. (had 1/4 tank full)
Fuel: 87 Octane... 56L is full from fumes. (note: method here is research octane + motor octane /2="octane")


Engine:
Mazda 13-b rotary 6-port N/A (intake/exaust is highly ported)
305cc secondary injectors replaced with 550cc injectors from a 3rd gen rx-7. (rest of fuel system is stock incl ecu)
9.4:1 rotors from 2nd gen upgraded to 10.1:1 rotors from rx-8 (1.1 lbs lighter ea. :D) [also ceramic coated]
rotor housings from 3rd gen rx-7, better design/breathing than what I had.
rx-8 ecentric shaft (less rotational mass,, larger oil galleries)
rx8 rotor/stationary gears for the added 1000 rpm:)
3rd gen oil pump
12lbs alum flywheel..... 27lbs steel stock
alum under-drive pulleys on main/alt
elec. fan conversion
fully free flow racing exhaust
no emmisions of any sort at all
K&N filter in stock air box.

56L tank

I built the car for anything but high gas milage.
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01-20-2009, 11:48 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-20-2009, 12:07 PM by JazzRoc.)
#83
The Electric Car
Quote:Now, people will say that it is theoretically impossible to place a drag/drain on my alternator and thus more engine work yet gain from the resultant HHO in energy payback.... you can't get out more than was put in.. laws of physics, thermodynamics... I agree, BUT if you have a highly modified engine like my rx-7 has, there is so much WASTED gas being pumped out the tailpipe a tiny bit of HHO is like a fuse to dynamite.
Well, you are aware of the crit. Technically it should do better simply by taking the charging load (of making HHO) off the alternator.

If the HHO conditions combustion so well, perhaps you could try making it at home and trickling it in? Don't leak any though! EDIT - If you carry another battery (which you charge at home) you could crack your HHO without danger and as you need it. That way you don't waste so much energy down your alternator drive as well. Yep - you have to carry the battery, but perhaps it could be a relatively small lightweight powerpack.

Have you considered injecting atomised distilled water? This also conditions the combustion, raises engine pressures while lowering temperatures, and partially converts the engine into a steam engine. This appears to keep the exhaust system quite clean. You can expect a 10% efficiency improvement once you crack that. There's also a chance of combining these two processes into one single system.

Drawbacks? Yes - the watery underbonnet environment rusts everything in sight...everything has to be stainless...

Thanks for the info.
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01-20-2009, 03:31 PM,
#84
The Electric Car
Quote:Have you considered injecting atomised distilled water? This also conditions the combustion, raises engine pressures while lowering temperatures, and partially converts the engine into a steam engine. This appears to keep the exhaust system quite clean. You can expect a 10% efficiency improvement once you crack that. There's also a chance of combining these two processes into one single system.

Drawbacks? Yes - the watery underbonnet environment rusts everything in sight...everything has to be stainless...

Thanks for the info.

I'd like to get someday a 9" Camden Supercharger.
Having high compression rotors, (10.1 verus 8.5 on turbo models) is risky as heck... Zoom Zoom BOOM! So I was going
to try it with water/methanol injection as an octane boost, and run a low PSI pulley... 5 to 6 psi max.

[edit]
Quote:If the HHO conditions combustion so well, perhaps you could try making it at home and trickling it in?

It's not something easily stored. If you made a tankful, sooner or later the atoms could bond to form water on their own
wouldn't they? Under preasure?
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01-21-2009, 04:17 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-21-2009, 04:27 PM by JazzRoc.)
#85
The Electric Car
Quote:I'd like to get someday a 9" Camden Supercharger. Having high compression rotors, (10.1 verus 8.5 on turbo models) is risky as heck... Zoom Zoom BOOM! So I was going to try it with water/methanol injection as an octane boost, and run a low PSI pulley... 5 to 6 psi max.
You are a mad bastard. Turbochargers condition and silence combustion. A plenum can be used to store up pressurized air to reduce lag. Water-injected turbocharged diesels look like the most immediately practical direction for high-efficiency power.

A 600cc version could drive a (lightweight and streamlined) 4-passenger family car at 70mph and return about 105 miles per US gallon.

Quote:
Quote:If the HHO conditions combustion so well, perhaps you could try making it at home and trickling it in?
It's not something easily stored. If you made a tankful, sooner or later the atoms could bond to form water on their own wouldn't they? Under pressure?
Hell, no! I didn't mean compress the stuff! Holy shit! You'd end up a late mad bastard!:) I meant fill up a polythene bag, stick it in your boot, and pipe it for use when accelerating...

Good luck in your research!
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03-22-2009, 12:05 AM,
#86
The Electric Car
[Image: HydrogenChart.jpg]

This chart compares the useful transport energy requirements for a vehicle powered from a hydrogen process (left) vs. electricity (right).

In a recent study, fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel explains that a hydrogen economy is a wasteful economy. The large amount of energy required to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds (water, natural gas, biomass), package the light gas by compression or liquefaction, transfer the energy carrier to the user, plus the energy lost when it is converted to useful electricity with fuel cells, leaves around 25% for practical use — an unacceptable value to run an economy in a sustainable future. Only niche applications like submarines and spacecraft might use hydrogen.


So the hydrogen car doesn't make much sense economically, does it?
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03-22-2009, 02:41 AM,
#87
The Electric Car
Quote:So the hydrogen car doesn't make much sense economically, does it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFIlXaABU54
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03-22-2009, 10:27 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-22-2009, 10:46 AM by JazzRoc.)
#88
The Electric Car
Quote:
Quote:So the hydrogen car doesn't make much sense economically, does it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFIlXaABU54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuHFwrBuZV4

Ctrl, you may not wish to conduct reasoned debate with me, but I earnestly wish you would study the diagram. It clearly shows the energy cost at every step for powering a car by either hydrogen or electrons. If you cannot find an objection to any stage, then you must accept that the diagram is true.

As a matter of fact, combustion IS the exchange of electrons, but even with heat recovery it cannot achieve an efficiency better than 60%. And the processes leading to that have lesser physical efficiencies.

HHO is just an inefficient process - as is combustion of gas, diesel, or hydrogen in a cylinder - when compared with electromagnetic propulsion, and all of the proponents of HHO have as much understanding of physics as - chemtrailers and creationists. (!)

And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow


Be sorrowful.
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03-22-2009, 04:52 PM,
#89
The Electric Car
JR, I'm just keeping an open mind. I've seen Meyers' car, it doesn't appear to be loaded with batteries, so I wonder what is its range,
and what powers it? If water molecules have a resonant frequency, then the pulse width modulation method used by Meyers might
just have some validity. Brute force electrolysis and the pulse width would seem to be two different things, and only one them is relevent
to your chart.

Ever build a ruby rod laser kit as a kit JR? Which put out more power, the source light or the exiting beam? Common sense would dictate to
me that when you start bouncing light back and forth through a medium and between two mirrors, there should be a huge loss of light energy,
but there isn't.

I think of PWM electrolysis as the "ASE" part of the LASER acronym... amplified, stimulated, emitted.
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03-24-2009, 03:57 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-24-2009, 04:25 PM by JazzRoc.)
#90
The Electric Car
Ctrl, it's ALL about ELECTRON FLOW.

Combustion involves the movement of outer orbiting electrons of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms so as to occupy a lower (electropotential) energy state. This imparts a velocity to the resulting compounds (CO2 and H2O) - which we appreciate as HEAT and PRESSURE. This pressure/heat/gas combination is the expanding charge in an IC engine. As we know, a proportion of the heat conducts directly away into the engine mass, and every point down the transmission line of the vehicle, from the rings and gudgeon pins, cranks, valve gear, shaft bearings, rolling gears, wiping gears, to the road/tyre surfaces and vehicle aerodynamic drag subtracts kinetic energy due to FRICTION. All these losses have been logged, measured, minimized - everything is known about ICE driven vehicles. The 34 BHP Issigonis BMC Mini put 20 BHP on the road.

If you make ANY fuel for the above vehicle you are in effect merely "pumping" those unsatisfied electrons into their outer orbits. You have to make them climb a potential energy "hill". You cannot TRICK them into doing that. Any process you apply will involve the supply of energy much greater than the energy finally stored.

At least with an electric drive (assuming a pair of electronically-controlled multi-phase EM motors in wheel hubs) you only have (at very, very best!) a 7% drop in efficiency (and, of course, a similar amount due to controller board thermal gain) before you lose kinetic energy to road/tyre surfaces and vehicle aerodynamic drag.

Of course, we ARE ignoring electrical conversion efficiency loss at the power plant (which could be 30% if it were CHP, 65% otherwise) and - ugh - transmission lines and - ugh - battery charger.:msnslap:

That's why I want a wood-burning steam quasiturbine houseboat... ...to tour Canadian lakes... ...and a flyswatter...
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