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01-31-2009, 12:46 AM,
debate and make your case, take a contrary view - brilliant but don't just leap in a brand people as 'trolls' because they don't happen to agree with you- personally, I think it's very useful to have someone onboard with a career in aeronautics engaging in these discussions.
01-31-2009, 01:21 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-31-2009, 01:33 AM by Halliburton Crusher.)
JAZZ ROC - we should be seeing more short jet trails in regard to your mentioning that there are more airplanes in flight compared to years ago.

we should not be seeing long trails which are happening only in recent years.

go to to find out about clifford carnicoms test results from chemical laboratories, as per the powder and fiber that has been retrieved from fallout. is an excellent website for more photos. this is a major issue in the world and should be treated with openmindedness and respect.
01-31-2009, 01:50 AM,
story from 2001

Thursday, 2 August, 2001, 01:45 GMT 02:45 UK
US makes 'weather control powder'
Hurricane damage
Scientists hope to reduce the effects of hurricanes
By BBC Science's Julian Siddle

A company in the United States claims it has invented a powder that can be used to remove clouds from the sky and even stop the development of hurricanes.

They say the new product could help many areas of the world that are subject to extreme weather conditions.

The powder absorbs water from storm clouds
The Florida based company, Dyn-o-mat, used a military aircraft to drop four tonnes of its powder on to a developing storm cloud.

The cloud disappeared from radar screens, which were monitoring the experiment.

Officials from the company, which produces materials to absorb pollutants such as oil and acids, say they used a specially developed powder that absorbs large quantities of water.

'Completely safe'

The water is then turned into a gel before falling out of the sky.

The company says the gel is completely safe, bio-degradable, and breaks down in seawater - though they refuse to say exactly what is in it.

Among the applications that it envisages for the powder are clearing away clouds before sports fixtures and constraining the development hurricanes.

The company believes that a tightly controlled jet of the powder aimed at the hurricane would cut it into smaller pieces, making it far less threatening.

The US Government has already expressed interest in the new product, and the company says it could be useful worldwide.
01-31-2009, 01:58 AM,
Geoengineering Projects That Could Offset Global Warming

Geo-engineering is the large-scale engineering of the environment to combat the effects of climate change -- in particular to counteract the effects of increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. A number of schemes have been suggested including nutrient fertilisation of the oceans, cloud seeding, sunshades in space, stratospheric aerosol injections, and ocean pipes. (Credit: iStockphoto)

ScienceDaily (Jan. 28, 2009) — The first comprehensive assessment of the climate cooling potential of different geoengineering schemes has been carried out by researchers at the University of East Anglia (UEA).

Key findings include:

* Enhancing carbon sinks could bring CO2 back to its pre-industrial level, but not before 2100 – and only when combined with strong mitigation of CO2 emissions
* Stratospheric aerosol injections and sunshades in space have by far the greatest potential to cool the climate by 2050 - but also carry the greatest risk
* Surprisingly, existing activities that add phosphorous to the ocean may have greater long-term carbon sequestration potential than deliberately adding iron or nitrogen
* On land, sequestering carbon in new forests and as ‘bio-char’ (charcoal added back to the soil) have greater short-term cooling potential than ocean fertilisation
* Increasing the reflectivity of urban areas could reduce urban heat islands but will have minimal global effect
* Other globally ineffective schemes include ocean pipes and stimulating biologically-driven increases in cloud reflectivity
* The beneficial effects of some geo-engineering schemes have been exaggerated in the past and significant errors made in previous calculations

“The realisation that existing efforts to mitigate the effects of human-induced climate change are proving wholly ineffectual has fuelled a resurgence of interest in geo-engineering,” said lead author Prof Tim Lenton of UEA’s School of Environmental Sciences.

“This paper provides the first extensive evaluation of their relative merits in terms of their climate cooling potential and should help inform the prioritisation of future research.”

Geo-engineering is the large-scale engineering of the environment to combat the effects of climate change – in particular to counteract the effects of increased CO2 in the atmosphere.

A number of schemes have been suggested including nutrient fertilisation of the oceans, cloud seeding, sunshades in space, stratospheric aerosol injections, and ocean pipes.

“We found that some geoengineering options could usefully complement mitigation, and together they could cool the climate, but geoengineering alone cannot solve the climate problem,” said Prof Lenton.

Injections into the stratosphere of sulphate or other manufactured particles have the greatest potential to cool the climate back to pre-industrial temperatures by 2050.

However, they also carry the most risk because they would have to be continually replenished and if deployment was suddenly stopped, extremely rapid warming could ensue.

Using biomass waste and new forestry plantations for energy, and combusting them in a way that captures carbon as charcoal, which is added back to the soil as ‘bio-char’, could have win-win benefits for soil fertility as well as the climate.

This research was funded by the Natural Environment Research Council.

A new combined heat and power plant at UEA is pioneering this type of technology.

Journal reference:

1. Tim Lenton and Nem Vaughan. The radiative forcing potential of different climate geo-engineering options. Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics Discussions, January 28, 2009

Solar shield could be quick fix for global warming

* 15:35 05 June 2007 by Catherine Brahic

With a solar shield, temperatures would be roughly the same as in 1900 ©, but precipitation would drop (d). Without the shield, temperatures would rise dramatically (a), and precipitation would increase in some regions and drop in others (B)(Image: PNAS/Caldeira/Matthews)

A solar shield that reflects some of the Sun's radiation back into space would cool the climate within a decade and could be a quick-fix solution to climate change, researchers say.

Because of their rapid effect, however, they should be deployed only as a last resort when "dangerous" climate change is imminent, they warn.

Solar shields are not a new idea - such "geoengineering" schemes to artificially cool the Earth's climate are receiving growing interest, and include proposals to inject reflective aerosols into the stratosphere, deploying space-based solar reflectors and large-scale cloud seeding.

The shields are inspired by the cooling effects of large volcanic eruptions that blast sulphate particles into the stratosphere. There, the particles reflect part of the Sun's radiation back into space, reducing the amount of heat that reaches the atmosphere, and so dampening the greenhouse effect.

The 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines cooled Earth by a few tenths of a degree for several years.


Ken Caldeira at the Carnegie Institution of Washington, in California, US, and Damon Matthews at Concordia University, Canada, used computer models to simulate the effects that a solar shield would have on the Earth's climate if greenhouse gas emissions continued to rise along a "business as usual" scenario.

"We have been trying to pinpoint the one really bad thing that argues against geoengineering the climate," says Caldeira. "But it is really hard to find."

His computer models simulated a gradually deployed shield that would compensate for the greenhouse effect of rising carbon dioxide concentrations. By the time CO2 levels are double those of pre-industrial times - predicted to be at the end of the 21st century - the shield would need to block 8% of the Sun's radiation.

The researchers found that a sulphur shield could act very quickly, lowering temperatures to around early 20th-century levels within a decade of being deployed.

"The trouble is, the decadal timescale works both ways," says Caldeira. A sulphate shield would need to be continuously replenished, and the models show that failing to do so would mean the Earth's climate would suddenly be hit with the full warming effect of the CO2 that has accumulated in the meantime.

"So if you have the shield up there and it fails - or, for example, the Republicans put up a shield and then the Democrats come in to power and turn it down - then you effectively compress into a decade or two the warming that would have happened while the shield was up," Caldeira explains.

Poorly understood

A solar shield would not necessarily stunt plant growth. In fact, there is some evidence that plants grew more vigorously after Mt Pinatubo erupted because the sulphate particles increased the amount of diffuse light and boosted growth in shaded areas. But if a shield was suddenly removed, a portion of the CO2 stored in plants would be suddenly released as the plants respire faster in warmer temperatures.

"Personally, as a citizen not a scientist, I don't like geo-engineering because of the high environmental risk," Caldeira told New Scientist. "It's toying with poorly understood complex systems."

And the ease with which they could work is also risky, he says: "These schemes are almost too cheap and easy. Just one fire hose spraying sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere would do the job for a century. That would cost about $100 million - nothing in comparison to the hundreds of billions it would take to transform our energy supply."

But he also believes it is time to consider solar shields seriously. On 1 June, James Hansen, head of NASA's Institute for Space Studies in the US, published a paper stating that Earths' climate system has reached a tipping point (Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics, vol 7, p 2287).

Lesser of two evils?

Hansen's study suggests that only moderate additional warming is likely to trigger the disintegration of the west Antarctic and Arctic ice sheets - events which would be near-impossible to reverse.

"If this is the case, then I am not clear on what the 'greenest' path is," says Caldeira. "Is it better to let the Greenland ice sheet collapse and let the polar bears drown their way to extinction, or to spray some sulphur particles in the stratosphere?"

He says that if forced to consider deploying a solar shield, "we would need to be confident that we would not be creating bigger problems than we are solving. Therefore, it is important both to understand the mess we are in today - how close are we to making irreversible changes, how fast can we alter our energy system - and to understand what might happen should we try to avoid some of the worst outcomes by engineering our climate".

Caldeira and Matthews also found that a solar shield would not correct abnormalities in rainfall. Most notably, the tropics would receive less rain than in the absence of the greenhouse effect, as predicted by climate change models.

Journal references: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (DOI: 10.1073/pnas.0700419104)
01-31-2009, 02:01 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-31-2009, 02:02 AM by ---.)
Cheap climate-engineering schemes could get off the ground

Plans to engineer the climate on a global scale in order to counter climate change have tended to look more like science fiction than real-world solutions - shooting clouds of mirrors into space to reflect the sun's rays, for instance.

But now some of these ideas - such as sulphur sunshades and cloud seeding - are slowly gaining pace and popularity, and reputable scientists are working on computer models to simulate their effects.

In the first of two recent cloud-seeding proposals, Ken Caldeira of Stanford University modelled inventor Ron Acer's scheme to spray seawater into the air.

The idea is that humid air would condense in droplets around the salt in the water, forming sun-reflecting clouds - an effect which Acer compares to a giant thermostat. Caldeira found that it could reduce temperatures by 1 °C per decade.

In the second study, John Lantham of the US National Center for Atmospheric Research - one of the first people to suggest tinkering with marine clouds - and colleagues also modelled the effects of cloud seeding.

According to their preliminary results, they could reduce temperatures by nearly 2 °C in 20 years. They also say the cooling would be sufficient to restore the Arctic ice cap.

The most significant aspect of both of these schemes is that they would be relatively cheap. Acer reckons he could implement his on a global scale for a few billion dollars - an amount a number of entrepreneurs could certainly afford.

Caldeira points out that this does not solve the root problem - greenhouse gases will continue to accumulate even if the planet has a sunshade in place, so long as we continue burning fossil fuels at current levels.

So if, say, one US administration decided to start pumping sulphur into the atmosphere, but its successor took the funding away, the planet would suddenly be hit by a magnified greenhouse effect, with potentially catastrophic consequences.

Catherine Brahic, environment reporter

Projects like these haven't already been implemented, unbeknown to the public?
01-31-2009, 12:39 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-31-2009, 01:11 PM by JazzRoc.)
Quote:JAZZ ROC - we should be seeing more short jet trails in regard to your mentioning that there are more airplanes in flight compared to years ago. We should not be seeing long trails which are happening only in recent years.
Then you haven't followed the point I have tried so hard to make.

When a plane flies along, leaving a short trail, you are imagining that because the trail "goes away" then the sky is somehow unaffected. But it isn't, is it?

The water vapor from the fuel burn has dissolved into the air - raising its humidity. "So what?" you may ask, "it will now disperse", for it seems natural that it would do so. At ground level, in the troposphere, the warmer wetter air would climb, expand, and possibly seed a cumulus cloud half an hour later.

But the stratosphere is NOT LIKE THAT. It is more like a fire test room at a fire station: the higher you go, the warmer it gets. It is stable. There is NO MIXING. That stratospheric layer RETAINS the injection of water vapor. It can ONLY be removed by FALLING OUT AS ICE.

Consequently the repeated passage of shuttle aircraft through the same layer will raise it to saturation and beyond.

So if you expand aviation (and aviation is STILL expanding) TRAILS WILL GET LONGER... LAYERS WILL FILL...


Quote:test results from chemical laboratories, as per the powder and fiber that has been retrieved from fallout.
These have always been ground level tests which prove nothing. Proper scientific tests have been carried out frequently, but none of them by Mr. Carnicom, to my knowledge.

Quote:an excellent website for more photos. this is a major issue in the world and should be treated with openmindedness and respect.
Not with "barium" in its title...:)
01-31-2009, 12:46 PM,
Quote:Cheap climate-engineering schemes could get off the ground. Projects like these haven't already been implemented, unbeknown to the public?
They don't look cheap to me. 4 tons to knock out a thunderstorm? Sulfur and acid rain? Either polar bears or sulfur? NO, Nik.
01-31-2009, 01:01 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-31-2009, 08:05 PM by ---.)
Quote:QUOTE (nik @ Jan 31 2009, 01:01 AM) *
Cheap climate-engineering schemes could get off the ground. Projects like these haven't already been implemented, unbeknown to the public?

Quote:NO cheap thunderstorm, Either? Nik, They look to me. 4 tons to knock out polar bears? a Sulfur or sulfur? and acid rain?
01-31-2009, 01:16 PM,
In a nutshell -:)
01-31-2009, 07:43 PM,
01-31-2009, 10:23 PM,
Agent Orange - Vietnam
02-01-2009, 08:57 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-01-2009, 08:59 PM by JazzRoc.)
Quote:Sad crap.

Quote:30 yr-old herbicide sprayed out of Hercules aircraft at 2000ft.

This sort of sad crap: "Leading chemtrail researcher Clifford Carnicom has completed a series of impressive reports citing evidence that our atmosphere is now saturated with barium compounds as a result of the military's on-going weather and atmospheric modification projects. The presence of metallic alkaline salts in rainfall samples collected nationwide indicates that the atmospheric pH is being rapidly modified -- most likely by barium."

"Leading" - no scientific work, with no co-researchers, with no peer reviews and no published papers in scientific journals.

"Impressive", to the extent that, unlike normal scientists he doesn't collect from a trail, but says that whatever falls out of the air IS from a trail.

"our atmosphere is now saturated" is a contradiction in itself. the atmosphere moves on and replenishes itself: the troposphere recycling itself over tens to hundreds of miles and our stratosphere from hundreds to thousands of miles. By seeding rainfall, salt dusts MUST fall out of the air, and therefore the atmosphere CANNOT be saturated with them.

All figures of barium concentration in water have been found to be within EPA limits.

Chemtrails researchers continually fail to interpret relevant data correctly. They don't appear to be able to do maths.

Military? I thought they were busy in Iraq and Afghanistan, or is THAT all Halliburton?

"most likely by barium" - see what I mean? What do they mean, "most likely"? Don't they KNOW?

Really, Hilly, give those five neurones a rest!
02-01-2009, 11:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-01-2009, 11:26 PM by Halliburton Crusher.)

JAZZ ROC - this is for you. it amazes me that for an older guy, you just can`t figure out HAARP/Chemtrails. Peace Man !!
02-02-2009, 12:34 AM,
Very nice video Haliburton C , here is another
On the Trail
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi

Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
02-02-2009, 06:07 AM,
If those who have partaken in this can live with themselves, then so be it. I don't think I could knowing that not only did I have a part in killing and causing diseases to innocent people. But that is just me. Here are some links, (very important one)
Possible Chemtrail Related Medical Research
United States: National Library of Medicine and National Institute of Health

1: Med Hypotheses. 2004;62(5):746-54.

Chronic barium intoxication disrupts sulphated proteoglycan synthesis: a hypothesis for the origins of multiple sclerosis.

Purdey M.

High Barn Farm, Elworthy, Taunton, Somerset TA43PX, UK.

High level contamination by natural and industrial sources of the alkali earth metal, barium (Ba) has been identified in the ecosystems/workplaces that are associated with high incidence clustering of multiple sclerosis (MS) and other neurodegenerative diseases such as the transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs) and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). Analyses of ecosystems supporting the most renowned MS clusters in Saskatchewan, Sardinia, Massachusetts, Colorado, Guam, NE Scotland demonstrated consistently elevated levels of Ba in soils (mean: 1428 ppm) and vegetation (mean: 74 ppm) in relation to mean levels of 345 and 19 ppm recorded in MS-free regions adjoining. The high levels of Ba stemmed from local quarrying for Ba ores and/or use of Ba in paper/foundry/welding/textile/oil and gas well related industries, as well as from the use of Ba as an atmospheric aerosol spray for enhancing/refracting the signalling of radio/radar waves along military jet flight paths, missile test ranges, etc. It is proposed that chronic contamination of the biosystem with the reactive types of Ba salts can initiate the pathogenesis of MS; due to the conjugation of Ba with free sulphate, which subsequently deprives the endogenous sulphated proteoglycan molecules (heparan sulfates) of their sulphate co partner, thereby disrupting synthesis of S-proteoglycans and their crucial role in the fibroblast growth factor (FGF) signalling which induces oligodendrocyte progenitors to maintain the growth and structural integrity of the myelin sheath. Loss of S-proteoglycan activity explains other key facets of MS pathogenesis; such as the aggregation of platelets and the proliferation of superoxide generated oxidative stress. Ba intoxications disturb the sodium-potassium ion pump--another key feature of the MS profile. The co-clustering of various neurodegenerative diseases in these Ba-contaminated ecosystems suggests that the pathogenesis of all of these diseases could pivot upon a common disruption of the sulphated proteoglycan-growth factor mediated signalling systems. Individual genetics dictates which specific disease emerges at the end of the day.

PMID: 15082100 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

United States: National Library of Medicine and National Institute of Health

As for trust the EPA :

Pretty sure these are the same people that said NY was safe to come back to days after 911.

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