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Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
01-19-2009, 01:05 AM,
#1
Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
Alan Watt on sweet liberty december 8, 2004

Alan: The Talmud was a Babylonian religion which was taken over, or at least a bunch of people came out of Babylon with an updated religion that was based on the Babylon Talmud. That's when Judaism began.

<span style="color:#808080">It seems to me that the Talmud was written with the purpose of creating a religiously brainwashed race of people who would BELIEVE that they were god's chosen.

These people would then be taught and trained to hate and destroy all the other nations and their peoples.

Thinking that they were doing it for themselves and their god.

But the reality is the Talmud is actually the creation of the babylon mystery religion and the 'chosen people' are nothing more than chosen slaves who unknowingly fight and conquer on behalf of their unknown controllers.

Also works out beautifully because they attract all the hate and suspicion, while the hidden masters carry on undetected.

Beware those that call themselves jews, but are not.

Seems to me that the jews are being setup for the fall here, and many are taking the bait.

Similar to how America was chosen to conquer the world and then fall.

Looks like the same technique to me.

Jackie: Did the Pharisees not exist yet?

Alan: No. Supposedly, according to the mythology, they were taken into captivity from Israel into Babylon where they were there for a couple of hundred years. When they went in they had Levi, the priests, and a set of rituals and so on, basically the Books of Moses or at least the oral tradition of Moses. When they came out they had Talmud, which is now the main book, and they had the Pharisaical priesthood and the Sadducees, which again, as in all these mystic religions, has double meanings. The Sadducees who were the supposed nobility of the supposed Jews and I've no doubt they were the nobility of Babylon that came out there. Their symbol was the serpent and you'll find too in the Jewish traditions of Moses the brazen serpent that he had made to go in front of him with the wings and a serpent on the staff was put into a sacred grove and it was worshiped there basically for a couple of hundred years. The Sadducees, again, have this serpent symbol and remember, too, it's really a Latin term. We're reading a Latinized name here, Sadducees, and if you take the S and put it back into a C, you have the Caduceus.

Jackie: Caduceus, and that was their staff right?

Alan: The serpent again, so it's all games and tricks you see and the blind cannot see. That's the whole idea. Those who have no eyes don't see what's right in front of them. They play these games with us all the time. Pharisees is also a play on pharaoh, you see, and Pharis- and Paris is actually the eagle, so that's the royal eagle, basically.

Jackie: The eagle for whom, the royalty?

Alan: Yes, the ancient mystery religion which ran Babylon, Egypt and all the old worlds.

...
Alan: If you look at the Greek occupation prior to the Roman occupation of that whole area��"we can call it the supposed Holy Land��"on the Greek maps there is no Israel.

Jackie: Oh, I was going to ask you that when you mentioned that they were taken out of Israel into Babylon. Israel didn’t exist at that time, did it?

Alan: There's no mention in the Persian, Egyptian or anybody else's histories of Israel. On the Greek's maps they had an entire area that was called Edomia for the Edomians. All we can really say is that the whole idea of an Israel began much later with a bunch of people coming out of Babylon.


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01-19-2009, 02:01 AM,
#2
Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
Quote:Zoroastrian influence

Zoroastrianism seems to have exercised a strong influence on the development and eschatological notions in Second Temple Judaism. Christianity, an offshoot of Judaism at the end of this period, got most of its eschatological ideas through the apocrypha of the Old Testament, the Jewish writings of the period just before the emergence of Christianity. It must, however, be noted that not all scholars subscribe to the statement that regards Persia as the origin of many Jewish and Christian eschatological ideas The basic problem about proving it lies in the fact that, as we have seen above, the main ideas of Zoroastrian eschatology are only known to us in their fully developed form from the Pahlavi sources, and these are much more recent than the earliest Jewish writings which contain eschatological ideas.

The arguments for connecting the Jewish developments in the field of eschatology to an Iranian influence can be set forth as follows. There was no doctrine of Jewish eschatology up to the end of the Old Testament period—neither individual judgment nor universal judgment. There was no notion of heaven and hell, nor a description of a reconstitution of the world after its dissolution at the end of time. There seems also to have been no idea of a systematic and universal raising of the dead at the end of times to undergo judgment, reward, and punishment. All these appear rather abruptly in Jewish writings that were composed during the last two centuries B.C.E. and subsequently in Christian writings. Since this was a period that followed a long Persian dominion in Palestine and an even longer period during which a substantial Jewish Diaspora had lived continuously in Mesopotamia and Persia, the emergence of a fully developed eschatology in Jewish circles, and one that displays such great resemblance to the complex of Persian ideas, cannot be a coincidence and must be explained as a result of contact between the two cultures. It seems rather unlikely that these ideas were originally developed among Jews, and that they were borrowed by the Persians, who constituted the dominant culture. The many eschatological allusions in the Gâθâs and in the Younger Avesta, although they are not always entirely unequivocal, seem to guarantee a certain measure of antiquity and continuity to these ideas in Persia, while we lack similar indices in Judaism. The strong dualistic character of Jewish eschatology seems also to suggest the likelihood of a borrowing from Iran. Zoroastrian eschatology seems to possess a certain coherence and structure, given the large role that the dichotomy between the notions of mênôg and gêtîg plays in it. This can explain many of the duplications in the narrative, while no similar mechanism is available in the complex of eschatological notions in Judaism. The influence of Persian ideas is particularly easy to show in many details where there is great similarity between some of the rabbinic writings and the Zoroastrian books; for example, it is possible to cite the discussions of the spirits accompanying the soul on its journey or of the fate of people whose virtues and sins are equal (cf. Böklen, pp. 40 ff.). One late Jewish midrash, called "The Ascension of Moses" is built very much like the Ardâ Wirâz-nâmag. It exists in several different Hebrew versions and also in a Judaeo-Persian one (a study and edition of the Judaeo-Persian text is in Netzer; for a selection of scholarly discussions of this problem see Böklen; Winston; Shaked, 1971; Hultgård; and, against the assumption of Persian influence on Judaism, König).


http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/ir...eschatology.htm
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01-19-2009, 05:22 AM,
#3
Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
no probs.

Sassanid Empire

Quote:From the perspective of Jewish history, the Sassanid Empire was highly significant when it became the center of the Jewish world after the destruction of the Second Commonwealth in 70 AD. The period saw major developments in Judaism, including the making of the Babylonian Talmud, when the great Talmudic Academies in Babylonia flourished during the Rabbinic era of the Amoraim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanids






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06-16-2010, 09:55 AM,
#4
RE: Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
bumped
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07-11-2010, 11:00 PM,
#5
RE: Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
With all respect, Alan watt has no authority on religion, from what I have heard of him in the past, he clearly has no respect for it or any scripture and often misquotes and misinforms with his sweeping statements. Just a thought...
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07-13-2010, 09:52 AM,
#6
RE: Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
Might be seen as defending Alan Watt, but why do you think respect for religion and/or scripture is required in order to be knowledgeable about it?


“I'm not from earth. I'm here on a research project. I'm preparing a paper on the psychosomatic ailments of pre-Apocalyptic condominium dwellers.”
-Sappho, Ash Ock

The Mushrooms once said to me "You must have a plan. If you don't have a plan, you will become part of someone else's plan."
-Terence McKenna
Reply
07-13-2010, 11:56 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-13-2010, 11:57 PM by NickHedge.)
#7
RE: Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
Alan Watt is an idiot. He doesn't know anything from anything. I wouldn't listen to him if he were explaining how to drink a glass of water.

But what is missing here is the description and explanation of what the Talmud is. Not only that, but the explanation of what the Torah is. Since the Jews use both books literally interchangeably even though one is a study guide and one is their bible.

The Jews brought about Idol worship and were the biggest progenitors of it. They polluted everything they touched. But I don't have issues with them because they seem to be doing such a wonderful job of bringing their own culture down. So I say let them continue on, they need no help from me.

However, with all that being said - here is an explanation from Jews on what the Talmud and Torah are. I think they are much better qualified to explain it than Alan Watt would be.

*********

Name of two works which have been preserved to posterity as the product of the Palestinian and Babylonian schools during the amoraic period, which extended from the third to the fifth century C.E. One of these compilations is entitled "Talmud Yerushalmi" (Jerusalem Talmud) and the other "Talmud Babli" (Babylonian Talmud). Used alone, the word "Talmud" generally denotes "Talmud Babli," but it frequently serves as a generic designation for an entire body of literature, since the Talmud marks the culmination of the writings of Jewish tradition, of which it is, from a historical point of view, the most important production.

The Name

"Talmud" is an old scholastic term of the Tannaim, and is a noun formed from the verb "limmed" = "to teach." It therefore means primarily "teaching," although it denotes also "learning"; it is employed in this latter sense with special reference to the Torah, the terms "talmud" and "Torah" being usually combined to indicate the study of the Law both in its wider and in its more restricted sense, as in Pe'ah i. 1, where the term "talmud Torah" is applied to study as a religious duty. On the other hand, the learning acquired by study is also called "talmud," so that Akiba's pupil Judah ben Ilai could say: "He from whom one derives the greater part of his knowledge ["talmudo"] must be regarded as the teacher" (Tosef., B. M. ii., end; Yer. B. M. 8d; B. M. 33a has "ḥokmah" instead of "talmud"). To designate the study of religion, the word "talmud" is used in contrast with "ma'aseh," which connotes the practise of religion. Akiba's view that on this account the "talmud" ranked above the "ma'aseh" was adopted as a resolution by a famous conference at Lydda during the Hadrianic persecution (see Sifre, Deut. 41; Ḳid. 40b; Yer. Pes. 30b; Cant. R. ii. 14). The two terms are contrasted differently, however, in the tannaitic saying (B. B. 130b), "The Halakah [the principles guiding decisions in religious law] may not be drawn from a teaching of the master ["talmud"] nor be based upon an act of his ["ma'aseh"], unless the master expressly declare that the teaching or act under consideration is the one which is applicable to the practise."

In the second place, the word "talmud"—generally in the phrase "talmud lomar"—is frequently used in tannaitic terminology in order to denote instruction by means of the text of the Bible and of the exegetic deductions therefrom. In the third place, the noun "talmud" has the meaning which alone can be genetically connected with the name "Talmud"; in tannaitic phraseology the verb "limmed" denotes the exegetic deduction of a halakic principle from the Biblical text (for examples see R. H. ii. 9; Sifre, Num. 118); and in harmony with this meaning of the word "talmud" denotes that exposition of a halakic saying which receives an exegetic confirmation from the Biblical text. Of the terms, therefore, denoting the three branches into which the study of the traditional exegesis of the Bible was from earliest times divided by the Tannaim (see Jew. Encyc. iii. 163, s.v. Bible Exegesis), "midrash" was the one identical in content with "talmud" in its original sense, except that the Midrash, which includes any kind of Biblical hermeneutics, but more especially the halakic, deals with the Bible text itself, while the Talmud is based on the Halakah. The Midrash is devoted to Biblical exposition, the result being the Halakah (comp. the phrase "mi-kan ameru" [= "beginning here the sages have said"], which occurs frequently in the tannaitic Midrash and which serves to introduce halakic deductions from the exegesis). In the Talmud, on the other hand, the halakic passage is the subject of an exegesis based on the Biblical text.

Relation to Midrash

In consequence of the original identity of "Talmud" and "Midrash," noted above, the former term is sometimes used instead of the latter in tannaitic sentences which enumerate the three branches of traditional science, Midrash, Halakah, and Haggadah (see Ber. 22a [comp. M. Ḳ. 15a and Yer. Ber. 6c, 39]; Ḳid. 30a; Suk. 28a; B. B. 134a; Ab. R. N. xiv. [comp. Masseket Soferim, xvi. 8]; Yer. B. Ḳ. 4b, 31 [comp. Sifre, Deut. 33]; Tosef., Soṭah, vii. 20 [comp. Yer. Soṭah 44a]), while sometimes both "Talmud" and "Midrash" are used (M. Ḳ. 21a; Ta'an. 30a); it must be noted, however, that in the editions of the Babli, "Gemara" is usually substituted for "Talmud," even in the passages here cited. The word "Talmud" in all these places did not denote the study subsequently pursued by the Amoraim, but was used instead of the word "Midrash," although this did not preclude the later introduction of the term "Talmud" into tannaitic sayings, where it either entirely displaced "Midrash" or was used side by side with it.

After the term "Talmud" had come to denote the exegetic confirmation of the Halakah, it was applied also to the explanation and exposition of halakic passages in general. As early as the end of the tannaitic period, when the halakot were finally redactedby the patriarch Judah I. and were designated as "Mishnah," a term originally applied to the entire system of traditional learning, the Talmud was developed as a new division of this same science; and it was destined to absorb all others. In a baraita dating, according to the amora Johanan, from the days of Judah I. (B. M. 33a; comp. Yer. Shab. 15c, 22 et seq.), the Mishnah and the Talmud are defined as subjects of study side by side with the "Miḳra" (Bible), the study of the Talmud being mentioned first. To this baraita there is an addition, however, to the effect that more attention should be given to the Mishnah than to the Talmud. Johanan explains this passage by the fact that the members of Judah's academy, in their eagerness to investigate the Talmud, neglected the Mishnah; hence the patriarch laid stress upon the duty of studying the Mishnah primarily. In these passages the word "Talmud" is used not in its more restricted sense of the establishment of halakot by Biblical exegesis, but in its wider signification, in which it designates study for the purpose of elucidating the Mishnah in general, as pursued after Judah's death in the academies of Palestine and Babylon. This baraita is, furthermore, an authentic document on the origin of the Talmud.

Three classes of members of the academy are mentioned in an anecdote referring to Judah I. (B. B. 8a): (1) those who devoted themselves chiefly to the Bible ("ba'ale Miḳra"); (2) those whose principal study was the Mishnah ("ba'ale Mishnah"); and (3) those whose main interest lay in the Talmud ("ba'ale Talmud"). This is the original reading of the passage, although the editions mention also the "ba'ale Halakah" and the "ba'ale Haggadah" (see below). These three branches of knowledge are, therefore, the same as those enumerated in B. M. 33a. Tanḥum b. Ḥanilai, a Palestinian amora of the third century, declared, with reference to this threefold investigation ('Ab. Zarah 19b): "Let the time given to study be divided into three parts: one-third for the Bible, one-third for the Mishnah, and one-third for the Talmud." In Ḳid. 33a this saying is quoted in the name of the tanna Joshua b. Hananiah, although this is probably a corruption of the name of Jose b. Ḥanina (amora). Yudan, a Palestinian amora of the fourth century, found in Eccl. xi. 9 an allusion to the pleasure taken in the three branches of study, Miḳra, Mishnah, and Talmud.

The Three Subjects of Study

The old trichotomy of traditional literature was changed, however, by the acceptance of the Mishnah of Judah I., and by the new study of the Talmud designed to interpret it. The division termed "Halakot" (singular, "Halakah") in the old classification was then called "Mishnah," although in Palestine the Mishnah continued to be designated as "Halakot." The Midrash became a component part of the Talmud; and a considerable portion of the halakic Bible hermeneuties of the Tannaim, which had been preserved in various special works, was incorporated in the Babylonian Talmud. The Haggadah (plural, "Haggadot") lost its importance as an individual branch of study in the academies, although it naturally continued to be a subject of investigation, and a portion of it also was included in the Talmud. Occasionally the Haggadah is even designated as a special branch, being added as a fourth division to the three already mentioned. Ḥanina ben Pappa, an amora of the early part of the fourth century, in characterizing these four branches says: "The countenance should be serious and earnest in teaching the Scriptures, mild and calm for the Mishnah, bright and lively for the Talmud, and merry and smiling for the Haggadah" (Pesiḳ. 110a; Pes. R. 101b; Tan., Yitro, ed. Buber, p. 17; Massek. Soferim, xvi. 2). As early as the third century Joshua ben Levi interpreted Deut. ix. 10 to mean that the entire Law, including Miḳra, Mishnah, Talmud, and Haggadah, had been revealed to Moses on Sinai (Yer. Pes. 17a, line 59; Meg. 74d, 25), while in Gen. R. lxvi. 3 the blessings invoked in Gen. xxvii. 28 are explained as "Miḳra, Mishnah, Talmud, and Haggadah." The Palestinian haggadist Isaac divided these four branches into two groups: (1) the Miḳra and the Haggadah, dealing with subjects of general interest; and (2) the Mishnah and the Talmud, "which can not hold the attention of those who hear them" (Pesiḳ. 101b; see Bacher, "Ag. Pal. Amor." ii. 211).

According to a note of Tanḥuma ben Abba (of the latter part of the 4th cent.) on Cant. v. 14 (Cant. R. ad loc.), a student must be familiar with all four branches of knowledge, Miḳra, Mishnah, Halakah (the last-named term used here instead of "Tatmud"), and Haggadah; while Samuel b. Judah b. Abun, a Palestinian amora of the same century, interpreted Prov. xxviii. 11 as an allusion to the halakist ("man of the Talmud") and to the haggadist ("man of the Haggadah"; Yer. Hor. 48c; see also Pesiḳ. 176a; Lev. R. xxi., Talmud and Haggadah). Here may be mentioned also the concluding passage of the mishnaic treatise Abot (v., end): "At the age of five to the Bible; at the age of ten to the Mishnah; at the age of fifteen to the Talmud." This is ascribed by many to the ancient tanna Samuel ha-Ḳaṭon (see Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 378), although the sequence of study which it mentions is evidently that which was customary during the amoraic period (comp. also the saying of Abaye in Ket. 50a).

The following passages from the Babylonian Talmud may likewise serve to illustrate the special usage which finally made the word "Talmud" current as the name of the work. Samuel, one of the earliest Babylonian amoraim, interpreted the words of Zech. viii. 10, "neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in," as applying to the restlessness of one who turns from the Talmud and confines himself to the study of the Mishnah (Ḥag. 10a). Johanan, the younger Palestinian contemporary of Samuel, extends the allusion to "him also who turns from one Talmud to study another," referring here to Babli and to Yerushalmi. It is very possible that he had noticed that in the case of his numerous Babylonian pupils the transition from the mishnaic exegesis which they had acquired at home to that of the Palestinian schools was not made without disturbing their peace of mind. Allusions to the "Talmud of Babylon" by two prominent Babylonians who settled in Palestine (Ze'era and Jeremiah) have likewise been pre-served (B. M. 85c; Sanh. 24a); and they confirm Johanan's conception of the meaning of the term.

The Gemara

In Babylonia the Aramaic noun "gemar" (emphatic state, "gemara") was formed from the verb (which does not occur in Palestinian texts), having the meaning of "learn." This substantive accordingly designates that which has been learned, and the learning transmitted to scholars by tradition, although it is used also in a more restricted sense to connote the traditional exposition of the Mishnah; and it therefore gained currency as a designation of the Talmud. In the modern editions of the Babylonian Talmud the term "Gemara" occurs very frequently in this sense; but in nearly every case it was substituted at a later time for the objectionable word "Talmud," which was interdicted by the censor. The only passage in which "Gemara" occurs with the meaning of "Talmud" in the strict sense of that term and from which it was not removed by the censor is 'Er. 32b, where it is used by Naḥman bar Jacob, a Babylonian amora of the second half of the third century. For further details see Bacher, "Gemara," in "Hebrew Union College Annual," pp. 26-36, Cincinnati, 1904, where the word is shown to have been used for "Talmud" from the geonic period (see also idem, "Die Terminologie der Amoräer," pp. 31 et seq., Leipsic, 1905). The later editions of the Talmud frequently substitute for the word "Gemara" the abbreviation (Aramaic, = "the six orders of the Mishnah"), which has come to be, with the pronunciation "Shas," a popular designation for the Babylonian Talmud.

Here may be mentioned the term "Shem'ata" (), which was used in Babylonia to designate the halakic portion of the Talmud, and which was thus contrasted with "Haggadah" (see Ḥag. 26a; Soṭah 20a; Sanh. 38b; comp. also M. Ḳ. 23a, where "Shemu'ah," the Hebrew form, occurs in a baraita). In the tenth century this word was used in Mohammedan circles to designate Jewish tradition as well as its chief source, the Talmud; so that Mas'udi refers to Saadia Gaon as an "ashma'ti" (i.e., a believer in the tradition), using this term in contrast to "Karaite" (see Pinsker, "Liḳḳuṭe Ḳadmoniyyot," i. 5). A "Kitab al-Ashma'ah" (i.e., "Talmud") is also mentioned ("Z. D. M. G." lviii. 659).

The theorem that the Talmud was the latest development of traditional science has been demonstrated by this discussion of the meaning and the use of the word itself. The Talmud accordingly dates from the time following the final redaction of the Mishnah; and it was taught in the academy of Judah I. as the commentary on the tannaitic Halakah. The editorial activity which, from the mass of halakic material that had accumulated since Akiba's Mishnah, crystallized the Talmud in accordance with the systematic order introduced by that teacher, implied the interpretation and critical examination of the Halakah, and was, therefore, analogous to Talmudic methodology.

There were, likewise, many elements of tannaitic tradition, especially the midrashic exegesis of the Bible, as well as numerous halakic interpretations, lexicographical and material, which were ready for incorporation into the Talmud in its more restricted meaning of the interpretation of the Mishnah of Judah I. When this Mishnah became the standard halakic work, both as a source for decisions of questions of religious law, and, even more especially, as a subject of study in the academies, the Talmud interpretation of the mishnaic text, both in theory and in practise, naturally became the most important branch of study, and included the other branches of traditional science, being derived from the Halakah and the Midrash (halakic exegesis), and also including haggadic material, though to a minor degree. The Talmud, however, was not an independent work; and it was this characteristic which constituted the chief difference between it and the earlier subjects of study of the tannaitic period. It had no form of its own, since it served as a running commentary on the mishnaic text; and this fact determined the character which the work ultimately assumed.

********

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Link: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=32&letter=T
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats. H. L. Mencken




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07-14-2010, 08:16 AM,
#8
RE: Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
In my experience, the more I learn about religion, in general, the less respect I have for it.

I'm thinking by the time I have zero respect for it, I might be considered an authority on it.


“I'm not from earth. I'm here on a research project. I'm preparing a paper on the psychosomatic ailments of pre-Apocalyptic condominium dwellers.”
-Sappho, Ash Ock

The Mushrooms once said to me "You must have a plan. If you don't have a plan, you will become part of someone else's plan."
-Terence McKenna
Reply
07-14-2010, 08:45 AM,
#9
RE: Is the Talmud jewish? are you sure about that?
(07-13-2010, 11:56 PM)NickHedge Wrote: The Jews brought about Idol worship and were the biggest progenitors of it.

Are you saying they were the first to worship idols?
[Image: randquote.png]
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