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Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
01-11-2014, 10:31 AM,
#1
Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(Been working on this for a couple of months or so off and on. Thought I'd post it here in light of the number of unexplainable discoveries recently which defy our "understanding" of how physics is "supposed to" function.)

Mathematics is a language used to represent a model of understanding of how a system operates.

Since basic mathematics was formulated, we humans have been using it to describe reality as we experience it. It is most used for studying the relationships between concepts, such as in geometry (i.e. the connection between the circumference of a circle and its radius), cosmology (i.e. the gravitational influence masses have on one another), and quantum physics (to explain things like quantum entanglement and various types of subatomic interactions).

In recent times, theoretical physicists appear to have been cropping up more and more to describe the reality around us. This group of creative (possibly even schizophrenic) individuals use mathematics to explain scenarios conjured up in the head. But many of those models are untestable, since either we lack the equipment to measure the proposed models or those models are simply incorrect.

A mathematical equation is by no means a law as to how a system operates - it only describes a law by which the system is expected or theorised to operate. If a mathematical model only describes part of a system, the rest of the system that is undescribed by mathematics (either because that part of the system is not understood, or the right mathematical model has not been formulated) is unknown.

When the aforementioned "unknown" is presumed to be true (since it's a "logical" extension of the thoroughly proven model), this opens up the current mathematical model to describing paradigms that may very well not exist. Yet, when a playing card is flimsy, the rest of the house of cards can come tumbling down, though in this case one can still be left with remnants of the foundation of our understanding of physics.

Another phenomenon which has given rise to rationality in physics is the deification of mathematics, in whole or in part. Galileo Galilei is quoted as stating, "Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe." The separation between God and science appears to be a rare occurrence these days as more scientists, who are supposed to be objective, view the universe from a religious standpoint as the years progress.

When mathematics is even quasi-deified as a language of a supreme being, one may begin to worship a mathematical model. One then may begin to worship all related mathematical models, even those which are only partially based on the known and quantitatively proven (measured and identified) reality. This has a tendency to cause the human mind to begin speculating on areas that have no bearing on how objective reality operates, and as a result, rather than retaining an ordered structure, our understanding of how the physical world potentially works becomes corrupted and can break down chaotically.

Religious wars can also break out in fields of scientists, with the winners being those who get the most funding from supporting even the most ridiculous, unproven concepts. This separates truth from hysteria in a way that's ultimately detrimental to the continued drive of our species toward understanding the reality around us.

Unless either these proposed, untested models are verified by measuring physical reality, or we discard them in favour of (often suppressed) models which better describe our world, we'll increasingly witness events unfold which spit in the direction of our arrogance and devotion to nonsensical, irrelevant conceptualisations, and continue our downward spiral into an abyss of ignorance and speculation.

Science and religion don't mix. We're seeing the revival of the Dark Ages at hand if we don't fix this problem.
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-11-2014, 11:32 AM,
#2
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
it's a conspiracy ...
and we are being deceived

thokling Wrote:Science and religion don't mix.
don't quite agree - quantum physics has proven that god is ... versatile Blush

thokling Wrote:We're seeing the revival of the Dark Ages at hand if we don't fix this problem.

no doubt about it - see first remark Clap
[Image: ommanipadmehum.gif]
my uploads on h33t
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01-11-2014, 12:52 PM,
#3
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-11-2014, 11:32 AM)groggin Wrote: it's a conspiracy ...
and we are being deceived

Consider the notion that people are allowing themselves to be deceived. I did, and the results have been quite interesting.

(01-11-2014, 11:32 AM)groggin Wrote:
thokling Wrote:Science and religion don't mix.
don't quite agree - quantum physics has proven that god is ... versatile Blush

Only because people state it has. In order for God (or gods) to be proven as versatile, God (or gods) must first be identified and measured while producing consistent results. There's no paper proving the existence of, or model explaining, God, and thus God has no place in science. Hell, all that is moot since God has not been properly defined in accordance with physical laws - everyone has their own definition of God.

What some call "quantum physics" is "quantum theory", which is not science but speculation. REAL quantum physics gives us tangible results, like lasers and transistors; "quantum theory" is science fiction until it gives consistent, measurable results, in which case it becomes "quantum physics".

And now we've got physicists who travel to Asian locales (or California) and have come back with God on their mind, possibly induced through the use of LSD (not surprising since many of them appear to be old enough to have been flower children). The swill these clowns offer as reality is taken at face value because they advertise themselves as physicists, who are seen by the general public as authorities, laughably, but in reality are merely closet philosophers. (I used the word "schizophrenic" rather consciously in the original post.)

They produce some intriguing ideas, but most if not all of those ideas have no place in science unless they're testable and verifiable. And until God is defined in explicit, precise terms, it will not be a part of the scientific process.

Just to be clear: science is simply the study of the natural world using facts obtained through experiments and physical observation. What in the physical world tells us that God exists?
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-11-2014, 02:22 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-11-2014, 02:25 PM by CharliePrime.)
#4
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-11-2014, 10:31 AM)thokling Wrote: When the aforementioned "unknown" is presumed to be true (since it's a "logical" extension of the thoroughly proven model), this opens up the current mathematical model to describing paradigms that may very well not exist.

Good thesis.

Thokling you really must listen to David Harriman's long-azz lecture on The Philosophic Corruption of Physics.

The only place I have found that lecture for free is inside episode 63 of the Peace Revolution Podcast.

http://peacerevolution.podomatic.com/entry/2012-08-12T08_45_48-07_00

Lectures begin right after Jack Blood at 1h21m. End at 7h33m. Aye Caramba! Smile Took me a week to finish, but was worth it.

Direct MP3 link (312 MB): http://peacerevolution.podomatic.com/enclosure/2012-08-12T08_45_48-07_00.mp3
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01-11-2014, 05:27 PM,
#5
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-11-2014, 02:22 PM)CharliePrime Wrote:
(01-11-2014, 10:31 AM)thokling Wrote: When the aforementioned "unknown" is presumed to be true (since it's a "logical" extension of the thoroughly proven model), this opens up the current mathematical model to describing paradigms that may very well not exist.

Good thesis.

Thanks. Sometimes I tend to ramble. If someone other than me understands it, it either means I've simplified it sufficiently, or the reader is as insane as I. Perhaps both!

(01-11-2014, 02:22 PM)CharliePrime Wrote: Thokling you really must listen to David Harriman's long-azz lecture on The Philosophic Corruption of Physics...

I'll admit that, while "The Philosophical Corruption of Physics" is certainly a more accurate title, I have a certain fondness for the particular title I've chosen. It hints of out of control ideological sexin' and recently-liberated boobies. (As in mathematical fallacies, of course, although usually it's tough for the inexperienced to tell if either are fake.)

I've just downloaded the MP3 (thanks for the direct link!) and... well, the last time I happened across a 6 hour presentation was David Icke interviewing Credo Mutwa, and I couldn't finish it. I'm tempted to run it through SoundForge and break it up into pieces for my brain to digest in smaller chunks.

I punched philosophic corruption of physics in a Web search and YouTube, and some interesting results appeared. Time to go swimming in the deep end again!
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-11-2014, 06:43 PM,
#6
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-11-2014, 10:31 AM)thokling Wrote: [i]theoretical physicists ... use mathematics to explain scenarios conjured up in the head.

It is a conspiracy in one way - science does use marketing psychology to attract the money of the public. It might also be these theorists are throwing out speculation in hopes of 'being the first to discover'; just a profit or power grabbing motive.

The viewpoint made me think of Michio Kaku. But maybe this view was meant towards the likes of the "Dr. Quantum" scientists, who make a living mixing science and spirituality?
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01-11-2014, 06:55 PM,
#7
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-11-2014, 06:43 PM)4cc Wrote:
(01-11-2014, 10:31 AM)thokling Wrote: [i]theoretical physicists ... use mathematics to explain scenarios conjured up in the head.

It is a conspiracy in one way - science does use marketing psychology to attract the money of the public. It might also be these theorists are throwing out speculation in hopes of 'being the first to discover'; just a profit or power grabbing motive.

The viewpoint made me think of Michio Kaku. But maybe this view was meant towards the likes of the "Dr. Quantum" scientists, who make a living mixing science and spirituality?

To be a conspiracy, there has to be a collective of sorts working behind the scenes to consciously inject the field of science with unhealthy doses of speculation. Whether intentional or otherwise, however, this tendency to make shit up and believe it results in the suppression of creative rational discovery in favour of creative irrational discovery.

It's one thing to be a theoretician. It's another for anyone to pretend any of it's factual. Perhaps the conspiracy is that science is being engineered into a religion on the basis that science as a paradigm (as opposed to a methodology) is infallible.

But this was definitely a stab against the integration of spirituality and/or religion (which are on the same side of the coin pretty well) into objective reality. Another example of the wool being pulled over the eyes of the public again.
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-12-2014, 04:23 AM,
#8
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
One conspiracy theory is that The Powers That Be pay really smart people comfortable wages to sit around in nice offices doing what are essentially brain teaser puzzles and other hobbies because those people would be dangerous to the system if not heavily invested in having it continue.
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01-12-2014, 10:05 AM,
#9
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-12-2014, 04:23 AM)CharliePrime Wrote: One conspiracy theory is that The Powers That Be pay really smart people comfortable wages to sit around in nice offices doing what are essentially brain teaser puzzles and other hobbies because those people would be dangerous to the system if not heavily invested in having it continue.

There's certainly the risk of various paradigms falling apart were legitimate sciencing allowed to continue. I find the notion that the Internet was created to further enslave humanity amusing as it's being used quite enthusiastically to free many people from tyrannical systems.
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-12-2014, 10:46 PM,
#10
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
The problem is that when you agree that 1+1=2 you'll never understand the concept of synergy, which is an important part of life!

In other words, best not get locked down in believing that math represents all aspects of reality, nor any other scientific truths for that matter.

Having said that, there is something to be said about universal cosmic geometry principals that are part of life.
Paix, Amour et Lumiere
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01-13-2014, 06:59 PM,
#11
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
Synergy! Now there we can deify, at least until the Maths catch up... OK. By definition, the Maths CANNOT include an Intelligent Designer, nor can they deny one. There is no physics evidence for or against. Science and Religion don't mix. Fact.

But Religion and Science do mix, in the realm of Metaphysics, Philosophies (including religions), and Pseudo-Science.

So I think groggin and Watchdog speak from the realm of Philosophies, but thokling speaks from the realm of the Maths.

On the issue of the schizophrenic Asian Californian LSD smoking physicists (heh) who are corrupting Science with Religion, some names or examples would be useful for comprehension. At this time it is not clear how the pure Sciences could at all be affected by their divine diversions, other than maybe some embarrassment to some scientific god-like egos. It would be like Astrology threatening to take over Astronomy, it seems impossible.

Thank you, this is definitely a brain puzzler for the uninitiated.
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01-13-2014, 08:35 PM,
#12
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
I thought LSD could only be eaten or injected.

Can one really smoke LSD ?
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01-13-2014, 08:39 PM,
#13
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
The original intent behind the post was to bring attention to the fact that just because someone comes up with a mathematical formula (or "methemetical" depending upon the substances involved during the creative process) to describe a system does not mean the system actually exists. And, equally, just because part of a proposed model has been proven as "fact" (within the realm of sciency things) does not mean the remainder of the model is factual.

Black holes have not been witnessed directly, for instance. They were created as models to describe a set of observations. By their very description, black holes cannot be observed (although contemporary models allow for minute bits of radiation to escape, thanks to a loophole theorised by Hawking, who's seems to be nothing more than a dime-store philosopher and mathematician).

But black holes are still models, and unproven ones to boot.

Yet, even though they've been disproven, we're seeing all sorts of cosmic phenomenae which are explained using properties of black holes. I won't get into detail because this topic is massive, but it's utterly ridiculous that physicists - grown men who are supposed to have grown up out of the young age of fantasy - believe in the existence of black holes and thereby set themselves up to believe in the existence of anything based on black holes and other unproven phenomenae.

Belief has no place in science because the purpose behind science is to study the visible, measurable, natural world. The rest is superstition.

This isn't to say that things that are unproven do not exist. But to vouch for their validity prior to having sufficient, observed, peer-reviewed evidence to support them is sheer folly, and is wholly detrimental to the search for objective truth.

(01-13-2014, 06:59 PM)4cc Wrote: But Religion and Science do mix, in the realm of Metaphysics, Philosophies (including religions), and Pseudo-Science.

"Metaphysical" refers to anything that's beyond the physical. It cannot be measured or objectively proven to exist, so by definition it cannot be described in a scientific manner. Once it's been observed, it is no longer metaphysical because it is recognised as part of the physical world. Pseudoscience is not science by any stretch of the imagination, because it's... PSEUDO. Fake. Pretentious. A sham. That's the precise definition of "pseudo", like how "pseudonym" means "fake name".

If you could explain how religion and science could possibly mix, I'd be appreciative.
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-13-2014, 10:39 PM,
#14
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-13-2014, 08:35 PM)CharliePrime Wrote: I thought LSD could only be eaten or injected.

Can one really smoke LSD ?

..or absorbed through the skin. It cannot be smoked as it occurs as a liquid.
“Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after
equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ” -Nikola Tesla

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -Jimi Hendrix
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01-14-2014, 12:43 AM,
#15
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
Well, before, my concept of 'deification' applied only to 'Gods', the spiritual gods of myths or religions. I see now that 'deified' is used here not only about spirit, but includes a rich metaphor to 'popular human science gods' as Hawking, and to the unscientific 'science' of false heros that get popularized in the common culture.

In this sense there are certainly many science gods, 'authorities' who are taking advantage of the unscienced masses, intentional or not, thereby creating great corruption of science understanding around the world. I didn't even know black holes were disproven. But it is easy to fool the ignorant. A root cause would be dearth of education and thus interest, and there is wide belief that Maths are too hard, except for very few intellectuals. And intellectuals rarely step down to the level of those in need. There isn't a middle class, there are only the few science-rich gods and the science-poor masses.

Science has no place for Religion, this is a fact. A 'Science' that mixes in Religion is no longer a Science, by western definition.

But Religions / Philosophies do mix in Science to support their models. Like the slit experiment in which Consciousness appears to be cause, this supports Idealism. Or, a Religion that embraces evolution theory while still including a God-force.

That Tesla byline above is perfect for this page.
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