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Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
01-14-2014, 01:48 AM,
#16
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
Thinking

So thokling, Have you considered applying for a job as physics programmer at linden labs ?

I feel that in doing so successfully, you just might do an about face on your stance.... In this case I consider success as a more realistic experience in the simulation called SecondLife.

BTW, Can you define/clarify "God" in your opening post ?
( Sorry, I agree wholeheartedly with Galileo Galilei. )

Also please define "Chaos"... In a quick overview of the heavens they may appear to be chaotic, however everything which does happen, happens for a reason and once you realize the reason it is far from chaotic.
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01-14-2014, 04:58 AM,
#17
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
This'll be a long one. HEH. Thanks for tasking my brain.

(01-14-2014, 12:43 AM)4cc Wrote: Well, before, my concept of 'deification' applied only to 'Gods', the spiritual gods of myths or religions. I see now that 'deified' is used here not only about spirit, but includes a rich metaphor to 'popular human science gods' as Hawking, and to the unscientific 'science' of false heros that get popularized in the common culture.

Precisely, and an excellent point. The same thing can be seen in how people view other popular figures, be they media sensations, politicians, spiritual leaders, or other individuals (or even groups) of celebrity-style status. Humans have been conned into deifying other humans contrary to what religious texts, or gods forbid wisdom, might advise many to do.

Hawking, Einstein, Obama, the Dalai Lama, parents, teachers, and so forth, are viewed as superior to one's self ("worshipped" in a sense). This is a desecration of the sacred nature of the self, and can seriously limit one from reaching one's full potential.

(01-14-2014, 12:43 AM)4cc Wrote: In this sense there are certainly many science gods, 'authorities' who are taking advantage of the unscienced masses, intentional or not, thereby creating great corruption of science understanding around the world. I didn't even know black holes were disproven. But it is easy to fool the ignorant. A root cause would be dearth of education and thus interest, and there is wide belief that Maths are too hard, except for very few intellectuals. And intellectuals rarely step down to the level of those in need. There isn't a middle class, there are only the few science-rich gods and the science-poor masses.

We all tend to build images of ourselves greater than what we may be. Everyone makes mistakes, without question, but pride tends to keep us in a state of self-delusion. (Not always, considering there are people who simply learn from a mistake and move on without any considerable fuss, if any.)

Just to be specific, black holes are neither proven nor disproven necessarily. There are points supporting their existence, and points devalidating their existence. But, because they haven't been conclusively proven to exist, any notion which relies on black holes to be complete, or on dark matter, or time and gravity being as dimensions as space, or any other unproven conceptualisation, should automatically be suspect as being potentially ludicrous.

People have been duped into living in a fantasy world. Not just in terms of scientific discovery, but in terms of history, self importance, methodologies, and all sorts of other areas.

And this is where the truther movement shines: uncovering the occulted data, processing it, learning from it, and becoming a better person gives the whole of a society, big or small, the opportunity to ascend beyond the confines of our animalistic, primal state into a more enlightened way of living.

(01-14-2014, 12:43 AM)4cc Wrote: Science has no place for Religion, this is a fact. A 'Science' that mixes in Religion is no longer a Science, by western definition.

But Religions / Philosophies do mix in Science to support their models. Like the slit experiment in which Consciousness appears to be cause, this supports Idealism. Or, a Religion that embraces evolution theory while still including a God-force.

That Tesla byline above is perfect for this page.

Yes, a scientific methodology may certainly be used for personal development, whether it's physical, intellectual, emotional, or spiritual. But it's vital to keep in mind that this is a very subjective area of exploration, and because not everyone will perceive reality in the same manner it's considerably more difficult to qualify (let alone quantify) the overall data set into a coherent form.

I am not denouncing religion by any means. We all have to make assumptions regarding reality: we assume gravity will always work, that electromagnetic radiation gives us the magnitude of communications capabilities (be they as simple as sunlight striking a plant or as complex as a wireless network), and so forth. These assumptions are essentially beliefs in the continuity of the laws of physics (which form the basis of all other areas of scientific study). We humans need religion to properly navigate within reality, or we have nothing to anchor ourselves.

But too much religion can equally break that anchor to the real world, as I intoned in the original post.

I agree with your opinion of the Tesla byline. It's absolutely perfect.

(01-14-2014, 01:48 AM)JFK Wrote: So thokling, Have you considered applying for a job as physics programmer at linden labs ?

I feel that in doing so successfully, you just might do an about face on your stance.... In this case I consider success as a more realistic experience in the simulation called SecondLife.

SecondLife is sorely limited in comparison to how the physical universe we perceive operates. It operates within a subset of the rules governing how our universe functions. When it comes to simulations of any sort, without modelling the actions of every particle within the engineered environment, they inadequately equate to the "real world", if I may be permitted to use that term.

It would be like comparing GTA or any other game to physical reality. There is not enough computing power on the planet to model an entire universe. Simulations have to cheat in order to create the illusion of reality. Perhaps our universe does the same thing. But this is really taking the topic off track.

What I'm referring to is the utilisation of science to create fantasy worlds in the mind instead of measuring objective reality. These fantasies have insufficient foundation in physical reality to be considered a certainty, and "scientists" spread that information to other people. It's transmissive schizophrenia in action. Fascinating to watch, but humanity will remain stuck in a trap until it learns, as a whole, to overcome the illusion.

(01-14-2014, 01:48 AM)JFK Wrote: BTW, Can you define/clarify "God" in your opening post ?

NOPE. That's the point. The concept of "God" is entirely subjective. No two people can agree on what "God" truly is, because it's based on one's experiences.

My point MAY be moot if one defines God as the perceived mechanisms driving reality, however. I do not know what Galileo's definition of God was, but if it involves an intelligent creator, there's no scientific proof that such a beast exists, and therefore it's scientifically moot until such a time as we all agree on what God is and how to identify it.

(01-14-2014, 01:48 AM)JFK Wrote: ( Sorry, I agree wholeheartedly with Galileo Galilei. )

Why apologise? You're sticking to your stance wholeheartedly. :>

(01-14-2014, 01:48 AM)JFK Wrote: Also please define "Chaos"... In a quick overview of the heavens they may appear to be chaotic, however everything which does happen, happens for a reason and once you realize the reason it is far from chaotic.

I was using the term "chaotically" as a descriptive term rather than to support in any great manner the content of the post. Chaos and entropy work against structure, in any case.
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-14-2014, 07:02 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-14-2014, 07:15 AM by JFK.)
#18
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-14-2014, 04:58 AM)thokling Wrote:
(01-14-2014, 01:48 AM)JFK Wrote: So thokling, Have you considered applying for a job as physics programmer at linden labs ?

I feel that in doing so successfully, you just might do an about face on your stance.... In this case I consider success as a more realistic experience in the simulation called SecondLife.

SecondLife is sorely limited in comparison to how the physical universe we perceive operates. It operates within a subset of the rules governing how our universe functions. When it comes to simulations of any sort, without modelling the actions of every particle within the engineered environment, they inadequately equate to the "real world", if I may be permitted to use that term.

It would be like comparing GTA or any other game to physical reality. There is not enough computing power on the planet to model an entire universe. Simulations have to cheat in order to create the illusion of reality. Perhaps our universe does the same thing. But this is really taking the topic off track.

What I'm referring to is the utilisation of science to create fantasy worlds in the mind instead of measuring objective reality. These fantasies have insufficient foundation in physical reality to be considered a certainty, and "scientists" spread that information to other people. It's transmissive schizophrenia in action. Fascinating to watch, but humanity will remain stuck in a trap until it learns, as a whole, to overcome the illusion.

Wow, that flew right over your head didn't it? LOL
Firstly SecondLife does not attempt to model the universe... Just an infinitesimal portion of it, therefore it should be easy for you. Wink

Secondly I was thinking about the mathematics involved in reprogramming the physics engine, Which you skillfully danced around... And then had the audacity to suggest it is off topic. :p

And last but not least, If you reread my post I didn't say that I wanted it to be perfect, just more realistic than it currently is.
( baby steps Smile )

Edit to add - Should you be successful, in my eyes you would earn the "deity" label in my eyes.
Whacky084
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01-20-2014, 01:09 AM,
#19
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-14-2014, 07:02 AM)JFK Wrote: Wow, that flew right over your head didn't it? LOL
Firstly SecondLife does not attempt to model the universe... Just an infinitesimal portion of it, therefore it should be easy for you. Wink

Secondly I was thinking about the mathematics involved in reprogramming the physics engine, Which you skillfully danced around... And then had the audacity to suggest it is off topic. :p

And last but not least, If you reread my post I didn't say that I wanted it to be perfect, just more realistic than it currently is.
( baby steps Smile )

Nah, you have to be more specific in your posts to get your point across is all. I still don't get what your point is. It's as though you're attempting to accuse me of being a mathematician, yet anything beyond basic arithmetic and programming logic causes my head to hurt.

A somewhat interesting connection I found is humans tend to idolise psychopaths, who generate their own false realities and convince others that those realities have any basis in physical reality, as we idolise theoretical physicists who weave fantasy into reality. It's as though we are attracted to fantasy and illusion on some deeper level. I'll be pondering this further for some time.
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-20-2014, 03:08 AM,
#20
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-20-2014, 01:09 AM)thokling Wrote: I'll be pondering this further for some time.
Careful, Don't hurt yourself. :p
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01-21-2014, 12:42 PM,
#21
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-20-2014, 03:08 AM)JFK Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 01:09 AM)thokling Wrote: I'll be pondering this further for some time.
Careful, Don't hurt yourself. :p

*POP*
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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01-22-2014, 12:50 AM,
#22
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
This thread popped up just as I was starting my journey into researching The Electric Universe, and one of the first things that I found was how Math has been misused and place at the forefront of our understanding, rather than at the service.

Check these podcasts out especially #004 Dr. Jeremy Dunning Davies: Math isn't Physics:

http://podgallery.org/thunderbolts-project-podcast/

Now, if we should digress and talk about the Electric Universe we should start a new thread. I simply posted this information because when talking about it, it just so happens that we need to explain how math has "screwed us over" in our understanding of the universe.

:-)
Paix, Amour et Lumiere
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01-22-2014, 02:53 AM,
#23
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
I'm rather appreciative of such a notion. A thread discussing the EU Paradigm would be most interesting. That's a cool resource there, too. I'm downloading the suggested audio file now, and I'll probably look into the rest of them time permitting. Much obliged.

That's a good way of stating the issue however:

(01-22-2014, 12:50 AM)Watchdog Wrote: ... Math has been misused and place at the forefront of our understanding, rather than at the service.

Man, does that apply to so much outside of the realm of the sciences. Sometimes it's easy to grasp at the closest explanation rather than continue exploring in case alternate explanations arise. In this vein, I've noticed a considerable overuse of the Occam's Razor "resolution". When dealing in areas of probabilities and incompleteness of data, sometimes the simplest solution cannot describe a complex topic.

But even EU theory may be incomplete to describe cosmological physics, and it's important for cosmologists to continue to be able to shape their perceptions to allow undeniable, replicable results to be incorporated as discoveries occur. Math can help along that path as a tool, but just because any universe can be described by a mathematical equation does not mean that such an equation describes our universe.

It'll take a hell of a lot more than math to get us unstuck from our societal rut for damned sure.
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
Reply
01-22-2014, 12:59 PM,
#24
RE: Deification Of Mathematics Gone Wild
(01-22-2014, 12:50 AM)Watchdog Wrote: Math isn't Physics:
http://podgallery.org/thunderbolts-project-podcast/

Cool beans!

I didn't know there was a podcast about EU theory! I very much enjoy the weekly short videos on their YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ThunderboltsProject

Adding this RSS to my Gpodder setup now.

Thanks WatchDog!
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