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Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
01-16-2013, 05:58 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-16-2013, 07:05 AM by macfadden.)
Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
While considering the following try to keep in mind that all the arts and sciences that human beings have ever managed to contrive all have a dual use, that is, they can cut both ways exactly like a double edge sword. That which can heal can also harm, that which can cure can also afflict, that which can create can also destroy, and it is almost always the case that if something has a potential for abuse that someone somewhere is putting it to use maliciously towards some malignant purpose.

Sleep temples (also known as dream temples or Egyptian sleep temples) are regarded by some as an early instance of hypnosis over 4000 years ago, under the influence of Imhotep. Imhotep served as Chancellor, and High Priest of the sun god Ra at Heliopolis. He was said to be a son of Ptah, his mother being a mortal named Khredu-ankh.

Sleep temples were hospitals of sorts, healing a variety of ailments, perhaps many of them psychological in nature. The treatment involved chanting, placing the patient into a trance-like or hypnotic state, and analysing their dreams in order to determine treatment. Meditation, fasting, baths and sacrifices to the patron deity or other spirits were often involved as well.

Sleep temples also existed in the Middle East and Ancient Greece. In Greece, they were built in honour of Asclepios, the Greek God of Medicine and were called Asclepieion. The Greek treatment was referred to as incubation, and focused on prayers to Asclepios for healing. A similar Hebrew treatment was referred to as Kavanah, and involved focusing on letters of the Hebrew alphabet spelling the name of the Hebrew God. Sir Mortimer Wheeler unearthed a Roman Sleep temple at Lydney Park, Gloucestershire in 1928, with the assistance of a young J.R.R. Tolkien.

Incubation (ritual)
Incubation is the religious practice of sleeping in a sacred area with the intention of experiencing a divinely inspired dream or cure. Incubation was practised by many ancient cultures. In perhaps the most well known instance among the Hebrews, found in 1 Kings 3, Solomon went to Gibeon "because that was the most renowned high place to offer sacrifices." There "the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream at night," and Solomon asked God for the gift of an understanding heart. Among the members of the cult of Asclepius, Votive offerings found at ritual centres at Epidaurus, Pergamum, and Rome detail the perceived effectiveness of the method. Incubation was adopted by certain Christian sects and is still used in a few Greek monasteries. Modern practices for influencing dream content by dream incubation utilise more research-driven techniques, but they sometimes incorporate elements reflecting these ancient beliefs.

Quote:It can be argued that hypnosis was present in all ancient cultures and in religious ceremonies that were practiced by them. The use of drums, chanting, smoke, dance and other ceremonial techniques lead many into some form of trance. Shamans, medicine men and wise women used methods, all similar in that they induced trance.
The oldest recorded history of the use of hypnosis techniques dates back to ancient India where these techniques were used as tools for health and wellbeing by Hindus who took sick individuals to what was known back then as “Sleep Temples” to remove evil and be cured. At the Sleep Temples, rituals representing hypnotic inductions were used to place individuals in a sleep-like state.

Archeologists have unearthed evidence that similar Sleep Temples were present in ancient Egypt and Greece. In Egypt, these were considered “dream incubators” where people would seek guidance. Several techniques were utilized to induce dreams; these dreams were interpreted and as a result herbs, therapies or rites were prescribed. Even though these were called Sleep Temples; we know now that hypnosis is different from sleep.

Quote:As we begin our study of hypnosis, let us examine its history. The first recorded use of hypnosis is found in the book of Genesis 2:21-22 (ASV) "So the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which God took from the man He made into woman and brought her to the man." In this incident God used hypnosis as an anesthesia so that Adam felt no pain during the removal of his rib. Since that time, hypnosis has been used in almost every age and culture under a variety of names.

AcropolisIn addition to the references in Genesis, mention of hypnotic technique is found in other ancient sources concerning Egyptian "Sleep Temples," The "Sleep Temples" are described in the Ebers Papyrus which are over three thousand years old. In the temple, the Egyptian priests used a hypnotic-like procedure to improve health. While the subjects were in the hypnotic state, suggestions for healing and health were given by the priest. The temple became so popular and successful that they spread to Greece and throughout Asia Minor. [Richard Morton, Hypnosis and Pastoral Counseling, Los Angeles, 1980, p11]

Chaplain W. Leo Peacock gives a number of New Testament illustrations of hypnosis in his paper "Religious Hypnosis and Personal Control." He mentions that there are two words used for sleep in the New Testament. They are "Katheud" and "Koimoni". The latter is transliterated with the sound "hypnos" and translated as "sleep" or "restful sleep". Chaplain Peacock makes a point with his interpretation of Matthew's account of Joseph's dream concerning taking Mary as his wife (Matthew 1:20-25).

When Joseph discovered that Mary was expecting a child, he decided to break his engagement for he knew that the child was not his. The story told of an 'angel' or 'messenger' coming to Joseph in a dream. In this dream, the angel told Joseph to marry Mary. Upon wakening, Joseph did as the angel suggested.

Peacock writes that this is a clear description of an individual being hypnotized, and while under hypnosis being given a post-hypnotic suggestion, which he immediately acts upon following the trance. [W. Leo Peacok, "Religious Hypnosis and Personal Control", Dwight David Eisenhower Army Medical Center, Fort Gordon, Ga., p2]

Peacock also mentions the experience of Jesus with Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration. Upon wakening from sleep, Peter, James, and John witness Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus (Luke 8:28-37). This experience was used as a positive force to enable the disciples to be able to accept that which was to later develop in Jerusalem. [Peacock, p4]

Though there are no direct references to Jesus using hypnosis (the word had not been used at the time of the original translation into English), he did use the power of suggestion in many of his healings. Jesus often used healing, touch and suggestions for healing. The leper was healed by Jesus' touch and words. Jesus put forth his hand and touching him said, "be thou clean and immediately his leprosy was cleansed" (Matthew 8:1-3). Of course, many other examples could be reported. I leave it to you to read the Gospel and discover other illustrations.

Saint Paul IconPaul speaks of being in a trance while he was praying in the temple (Acts 22:17). Peter "fell into a trance" and from that experience came to see that God loves all people and accepts all people who come to him. Peter had been invited by a centurion who was devout in his faith, but he was not Jewish. At that time, it was religiously unlawful for Peter to visit the centurion's house. After the dream, Peter went to visit the centurion (Acts 10:1-48).

Throughout the Book of Acts, there are a number of references to the apostles looking into the eyes or gazing into the eyes of a person which resulted in the person being healed. This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who when he fixed his gaze upon him, and had seen that he had faith to be made well, said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet", and he leaped up and began to walk (Acts 14:9-10).

Quote:Ever since the late 18th century when Frans Anton Mesmer brought the use of hypnosis (mesmerism) as a therapeutic tool to the attention of the public, therapists have been using it as a powerful tool to help them with suggestion therapy. If we look back into ancient history, we will find that the trance like state that we call Hypnosis has been used for thousands of years. In fact, from the study of primitive peoples' religious and healing ceremonies there exists the elements essential to place people into a hypnotic state. By rhythmic chanting, monotonous drum beats, together with strained fixations of the eyes, the village shaman or priest is able to induce catalepsy of the body. This helps to give the shaman the appearance of having magical and mystical powers given to them by the gods. Today we call it suggestion therapy.
Sleep Temple or Dream Temple Therapy

The use of suggestion therapy goes back much further than Mesmer. If Mesmer were to be called the Father of Hypnosis, then the great, great ---- grandfather of Hypnosis could arguably be the ancient Egyptian priest, Imhotep. (I-em-hotep, he comes in peace) Hypnosis, suggestion therapy can be traced back over 4000 years to ancient Egypt. The Egyptians used healing sanctuaries to heal people with all sorts of problems, both physical and mental, most of which today would be classed as psychological problems. These healing sanctuaries were called "Sleep or Dream Temples." In these temples, the sick person was put in to a trance like sleep; priests and priestesses then interpreted the person's dreams to gain knowledge about the illnesses and to find a cure for the illnesses.

The tradition of temple sleep dates from the time of Imhotep. The ancient Egyptians worshiped the priest Imhotep and dedicated Sleep Temples to him; he is the earliest known physician. He was the physician vizier, architect and priest, to the pharaoh Zoser (2650 - 2590 B.C.). Imhotep built the step pyramid, which is the first pyramid. In recent times Imhotep has become a Hollywood star; the name of Imhotep was used for the priest who became the Mummy in the latest film "The Mummy".

Temple sleep was used as a psychotherapeutic tool; the temples of Imhotep were well attended by people looking for psychological help. Under the influence of incantation and the performance of religious rituals, sick people were prepared psychologically for suggestion therapy; they were put in to a "hypnotic state." Before falling asleep they were influenced by suggestions, in the hope of provoking dreams sent by the gods. Today in some parts of the Middle East and Africa you can still encounter shrine sleep. Sleep Temples were and are used for the mentally ill, as a place where priests interpret the sick person's dreams. Thus, by the use of suggestion, (and the help of the god) the priests appear to cast out bad spirits from the mind and body of the sick.

In Greece, Sleep Temples were renowned as places of great healing and were dedicated to the healing god Æsclepius. Æsculapius took over the role of Imhotep. Sleep therapy survived in the temples of Æsculapius, which were constructed by the Greeks in the 5th and 4th centuries BC.

Æsclepius (also spelt: Asclepios, Æsclepius, Æsculapius, Æsclepius) was a healer, his mythical roots going back in to the second millennium BC, he became a demi-god. Over time he evolved into a temple god in his own right. The temples in his honour were temples of healing dreams. His daughters were Hygea and Panacea. A Klínè was a sacred place or a sacred skin set out around the temple, where the sick person reclined to enter the dream state. From these names we have derived the words, Panacea, Hygiene and Clinic. At the height of the cults power, there were 420 temples, spread across the ancient Greek empire.

Healing would take place whilst the person being cured was in a deep trance like sleep. The god Æsculapius could perform miraculous cures in the dreams. This sleep would come about by the power of the priests, who used chanting and magical spells to put the patient into a trance. This trance state was known as incubation; incubation is derived from the Latin, In (on) cubare (to lie down). A person could be kept in this state for up to three days, during which time the priests using suggestions would help the person, through their dreams, to make contact with the god, thus helping them to obtain a cure for their illness. The temples were a place of spirits, and mysterious powers, a place to find mental and physical healing.

The people looking for a cure or an insight to their problems were called Seekers. A Seeker had something on their mind, an ailment, an issue, and an inner quest to discover themselves. They came to seek an insight into their problems, to contact the healing god, to get a new vision that would heal, guide, or provide comfort. The path to the Temple was lined with huge the steles made of marble, on which were carved inscriptions, describing all the miracle cures, and the miraculous healing that had taken place in the Temple. It was claimed that people were cured of incurable diseases; the lame were able to walk again, people who were blind could see again. They were cured by the sole supernatural healing power of the divine dream.

This was a power that the priests knew from ancient times. The priests, who used secret rituals, incantations and traditions for therapeutic purposes, preserved this power; they were part priest, part physician, and part shaman. They were skilled in the interpretation of dreams; they were also skilled in the use of medicinal herbs. There were also attendants/caretakers of the temples, who had their own sacrifices and ritual activities to perform. They would council new seekers, also see to it that they were cleansed and purified. They were skilled practitioners and offered advice on how to seek interpretations of dreams.

The Seeker did not just go in to the temple; they had to wait for the right time to come. Before being allowed to enter the temple, and before the healing dreams could occur, they first had to learn the rituals and perform the rites of purification; they had to cleanse the body, mind and soul. They would meditate, fast, take hot baths, and make a sacrifice to the god. They looked for signs in their dreams. When the signs and omens looked right and they had cleansed the body, mind and soul, only then were they allowed to enter the main part of the temple. The main part of the temple had a large open floor area, with sacred alcoves to the sides, where the seekers could unroll their sacred skin, their Klínè; they would then sleep and dream of god Æsclepius healing them.

A good dream would be one in which the god would cure the wound by touching it. Once the person woke from their sleep, the attendant would spend time with them, reviewing any visitations from god, helping to explore the dream and secure the insights appropriate to that seeker at their stage of development. The dreams of the seeker contained the seeds of their own healing. The attendant's job was simply to elicit the vision of the god and aid the seeker in making sense of their personal dream story. Through incubation, the seeker was to awaken to his real self and in so doing regenerate himself physically, mentally and spiritually. Today we recognise a lot of what went on in the Temples as suggestion therapy.

Over time the priests developed a greater understanding of herbs and their use. They started to move away from the sole use of dream interpretation and suggestion therapy, using their growing knowledge of herbs; they started to develop unguents, tinctures and medicines. Whilst dreams in their early forms involved a direct visit from the god, over time the dreams became more metaphoric, the dream became symbolic of the person's problems. The attendants became dream interpreters, from these interpretations the priests would make up prescriptions for medicines. Over the past 4000 years, the Sleep Temple, the Priest and Dream Sleep, have slowly evolved in to what has become modern Doctors, hospitals and medicine.

The ancient Hebrews used meditation with chanting, breathing exercises and fixation on the Hebrew letters of the alphabet that spelled their name for God, to induce an ecstasy state called Kavanah. (These ritualistic practices are very similar to Auto-hypnosis). In the Talmud, Kavanah implies relaxation, concentration, correct attention (motivation). People such as fire-walkers, and priests who used the religious practices of laying on of hands to make people faint on to the floor, are using Auto-hypnosis to bring about an altered state of consciousness by the use of suggestion and expectation.

The Romans also adopted the use of healing sleep/Incubation Temples throughout their Empire. The Romans dedicated their Sleep Temples to the god Apollo - Æsclepius. Sleep Temples even got as far as Britain. Even now in the UK, you can visit a Roman archaeological site at Lydney Park, Lydney, Gloucestershire, where you can see the remains of a Sleep Temple. Sir Mortimer Wheeler excavated the Lydney Temple complex in 1928. One of Sir Mortimer's assistants was the young Professor J.R.R.Tolkein, who went on to write "Lord of the Rings"; it has been suggested that he based Middle Earth on the landscape surrounding the Temple.

Post-Script: Maybe today's Hypnotherapists consulting rooms can be viewed as the modern equivalent of the Sleep Temples, the couch a Klínè? But remember, "leave the healing god stuff, to a higher being."

David Reeves, works as a Hypnoanalyst and Stress Management consultant in Swindon and Harley Street London, and the USA. He has trained in Battle Field Stress Disorders, and is a member of the International Stress Management Association (UK), The International Association of Hypnoanalysts (UK), The National Register of Advanced Hypnotherapists (UK), The International Society for Professional Hypnosis (USA, Incorporated under the laws of State of New York), The National Guild of Hypnotists, (USA) The European Therapy Studies Institute, and The Hypnothink Foundation.
01-16-2013, 07:27 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-16-2013, 07:28 AM by macfadden.)
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
Trance-like states are often interpreted as religious ecstasy or visions and can be deliberately induced using a variety of techniques, including prayer, religious rituals, meditation, pranayama (breathwork or breathing exercises), physical exercise, coitus (and/or sex), music, dancing, sweating (e.g. sweat lodge), fasting, thirsting, and the consumption of psychotropic drugs such as cannabis. Sensory modality is the channel or conduit for the induction of the trance. Sometimes an ecstatic experience takes place in occasion of contact with something or somebody perceived as extremely beautiful or holy. It may also happen without any known reason. The particular technique that an individual uses to induce ecstasy is usually one that is associated with that individual's particular religious and cultural traditions. As a result, an ecstatic experience is usually interpreted within the context of a particular individual's religious and cultural traditions. These interpretations often include statements about contact with supernatural or spiritual beings, about receiving new information as a revelation, also religion-related explanations of subsequent change of values, attitudes and behavior (e.g. in case of religious conversion).

Benevolent, neutral and malevolent trances may be induced (intentionally, spontaneously and/or accidentally) by different methods:

Auditory: driving through the sense of hearing by chanting, auditory story telling, mantra, overtone singing, drumming, music, etc.;,

Kinesthetic: driving through the sense of feeling and movement through the kinesphere by dance, story telling by movement, mudra, embodying rituals, yoga, breathwork, oxygen deprivation, sexual stimulation etc.;

Visual: driving through the sense of sight by yantra, visual story telling, mandala, cinema, theater, art, architecture, beauty, strobe lights, form constants, symmetry;

Olfactory: driving via scent through the sense of smell by perfume, pheromones, incense, flowers, pollen, indeed any scent for which we have an association or memory, etc.;

Gustatory: driving through the sense of taste and indigestion; including: starvation, herbs, hallucinogens and drugs. As the intake of food and beverage entails intra-bodily chemical reactions through digestion, some infer that all food may be considered medicine or drugs and therefore contribute to the induction of discernible psycho-physical states (see Ancient Medicine). It can be attained through the ingestion of psychoactive drugs, particularly psychedelics, such as marijuana, LSD, Peyote, psilocybin mushrooms, and MDMA.

Disciplines: Yoga, Sufism, Surat Shabd Yoga; meditation;

Miscellaneously: traumatic accident, sleep deprivation, nitrogen narcosis (deep diving), fever, by the use of a sensory deprivation tank or mind-control techniques, hypnosis, meditation, prayer;

Naturally occurring: dreams, lucid dreams, euphoria, ecstasy, psychosis as well as purported premonitions, out-of-body experiences, and channeling.
01-16-2013, 10:05 AM,
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
The application of hypnosis as a powerful therapeutic tool can be traced back to be as old as man himself. Hypnotherapy has since then being used as a technique to modify & heal the subject’s emotional attitude & behavior & bring in a deep sense of relaxation. Additionally, it has also been applied for treating a wide range of dysfunctional habits, disorders, anxiety & most importantly to make the subject stress-free.

Although hypnotherapy has been used under varying names across the centuries, each had been meant to serve the same purpose. The use of this technique can especially be traced back to the mysterious religions & sleep temples of ancient Greek & Roman culture. Though the Greco-Roman society is popularly known for practicing trance-inducing rituals, it was common with numerous other pre-literate societies.

Records suggest that the common technique of healing practiced by the priests, involved interpreting the dreams of the help seeker by putting him into a suspended state of consciousness or what is called a trance like sleep today. Though it was a common practice with priests during this period, it was most often used by the Shamans, medicine men & witch doctors. The actual motivation behind what had been practiced of this technique in the past was mostly the conviction, imagination & strong belief being fostered into the one seeking healing.

As opposed to the Greco-Romans, the Egyptians & Hebrews practiced the hypnosis method in the form of incubation. Their technique was mostly based on producing an ecstasy-like state which we today know as self-hypnosis. The “Aesculapian Sleep Temples” came much later in the history books somewhere around 500 B.C. This particular period also saw the introduction of the term “suggestion”, a term frequently used by modern day hypnotherapists.
01-16-2013, 09:51 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-16-2013, 09:54 PM by macfadden.)
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
Quote:Sleep-learning (also known as sleep-teaching, hypnopædia, or hypnopedia) attempts to convey information to a sleeping person, typically by playing a sound recording to them while they sleep.

This technique is supposed to be moderately effective at making people remember direct passages or facts, word for word.

Research from the Weizmann Institute of Science indicates that classical conditioning can occur during sleep.

In Aldous Huxley's 1931 novel Brave New World, it is used for the conditioning of children into the novel's fictional future culture. In the novel, sleep-learning was discovered by accident when a Polish boy named Reuben Rabinovitch was able to recite an entire radio broadcast in English after a radio receiver was left on in his sleep. The boy was unable to comprehend what he had heard via hypnopædia, but it was soon realized that hypnopædia could be used to effectively make suggestions about morality.

Quote:Sleep Learning May Be Possible: Study

Sleep Learning

Sleep is already known to boost our brains' ability to learn and remember -- and now, a new study actually demonstrates this ability.

Researchers at the Weizmann Institute of Science played a number of tones to study participants as they slept during the night. After playing each tone, the researchers presented an odor to the still-sleeping participants. Some of the tones only had pleasant odors released after them, while other tones only had unpleasant odors released after them. The still-sleeping study participants reacted by either taking in a deeper breath when there was a pleasant smell, or taking a shallow breath if there was an unpleasant smell.

Then, as the night went on, the researchers tried just playing the tones for the sleeping study participants, without presenting the odors afterward. Even though there was no odor, the sleeping participants still sniffed -- either shallow breaths if it was after a tone that had previously been linked with the unpleasant smell, or a deeper breath if it was a tone that had been previously linked with a pleasant smell.

This held true even after the study participants woke up, too -- when they were awake, the researchers played the tones for them. They had the same breathing reactions as when they were sleeping.

"This acquired behavior persisted throughout the night and into ensuing wake, without later awareness of the learning process. Thus, humans learned new information during sleep," the researchers wrote in the Nature Neuroscience study.

The researchers said that this sniffing -- even when there was nothing to sniff -- showed that their brains were processing the link between tone and smell, even as they were sleeping.

Last year, a study from University of California, Berkeley, researchers found that the dreamless sleep stage that can take up half the night -- known as stage two of non-REM sleep -- may actually be the time when our brains are readying themselves and clearing space for learning by moving memories from the hippocampus to the prefrontal cortex.

While the child was asleep, a broadcast programme from London suddenly started to come through; and the next morning, to the astonishment of his crash and crash (the more daring of the boys ventured to grin at one another), Little Reuben woke up repeating word for word a long lecture by that curious old writer ("one of the very few whose works have been permitted to come down to us"), George Bernard Shaw, who was speaking, according to a well-authenticated tradition, about his own genius. To Little Reuben's wink and snigger, this lecture was, of course, perfectly incomprehensible and, imagining that their child had suddenly gone mad, they sent for a doctor. He, fortunately, understood English, recognized the discourse as that which Shaw had broadcasted the previous evening, realized the significance of what had happened, and sent a letter to the medical press about it. "The principle of sleep-teaching, or hypnopædia, had been discovered." The D.H.C. made an impressive pause. The principle had been discovered; but many, many years were to elapse before that principle was usefully applied.
From Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley.
Published by Unknown in 1932
01-16-2013, 10:16 PM,
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
Wouldnt it have been easier to just give us a summary of your points and then provide references rather than just demonstrate that you can copy and paste text.

Youve copied and pasted over 4,000 words which if I was interested enough to read it, I could do so by looking at the original source (and which you have provided).

Quotations are great when they provide a summary of an idea or topic but just copying something you found interesting in its entirety is bordering on tedious for most of us, particularly as anyone can use google to find this material - I am very interested in the topic of hypnosis (as I am qualified in it) but even I cant raise the enthusiasm to trawl through the text as I dont even have a clue as to what you are trying to say about it.
Remember you are unique
...just like everyone else.
01-16-2013, 10:37 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-16-2013, 10:39 PM by macfadden.)
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
I'm sorry a five minute read is overwhelming to you. Lulz.

I'm sorry you can't draw your own conclusions. Lulz.

I am so deeply and terribly sorry for the trouble I have caused you. Lulz.

You were right to derail this tedious thread.
01-16-2013, 11:55 PM,
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
(01-16-2013, 10:16 PM)Swordfish Wrote: Wouldnt it have been easier to just give us a summary of your points and then provide references rather than just demonstrate that you can copy and paste text.

Youve copied and pasted over 4,000 words which if I was interested enough to read it, I could do so by looking at the original source (and which you have provided).

Quotations are great when they provide a summary of an idea or topic but just copying something you found interesting in its entirety is bordering on tedious for most of us, particularly as anyone can use google to find this material - I am very interested in the topic of hypnosis (as I am qualified in it) but even I cant raise the enthusiasm to trawl through the text as I dont even have a clue as to what you are trying to say about it.

Shills only post content to distract people, point them in the wrong direction, discredit or insult people that are on the right track, lock people down in endless non productive debates, derail threads that are getting to close to the truth (according to their agenda), etc...

They can be paid by a specific organisation, or not (aka tools). Some may act like shills but are just deranged and post stuff like an obsessive compulsive disorder, or use forums to archive their research (but these people are usually polite and will discuss topics, because they are genuinely interested). However this is very risky, because the forum master can pull the plug at anytime and everything is lost. This recently occured at the Outlaw forum, when Andre shut down the forum claiming his world view has changed (never thinking for one moment that he was not alone in the forum... Interestingly enough he pulled it the day after I exposed him...). I'll make a separate post on this topic.

Shills can also be friendly to avoid being caught shilling.

Not sure about macfadden yet. All I can say is that he is very rude and will mostly give his opinion to discret others that don't think like him. Certainly acts like a shill. Everything else is pretty much cut and paste. I noticed that few members in this forum don't even respond to him anymore...

There are many other threads on mind control in this forum. I'm sure you'll find some where you can have a serious and intellectual discussion. Take care.
Paix, Amour et Lumiere
01-17-2013, 12:52 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-17-2013, 12:58 AM by macfadden.)
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
Dude, you are a weird little hater and a serial derailer of threads, for some reason you have taken up stalking my threads with off topic harassments, bad poetry, asinine metaphysical musings, ludicrous accusations etc etc. Please go find someone else to harass.

As for the other guy, wouldn't it have been easier to just have given an intelligent thought on the topic rather than demonstrate that you can trifle and derail threads?
01-17-2013, 01:36 AM,
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
(01-17-2013, 12:52 AM)macfadden Wrote: Dude, you are a weird little hater and a serial derailer of threads, for some reason you have taken up stalking my threads with off topic harassments, bad poetry, asinine metaphysical musings, ludicrous accusations etc etc. Please go find someone else to harass.

As for the other guy, wouldn't it have been easier to just have given an intelligent thought on the topic rather than demonstrate that you can trifle and derail threads?

I could be wrong and I know that, but I don't hate you. I'm not a stalker I read and respond randomly to threads I find interesting. Just remember that you attacked me first with really bad insults, and then someone joined in and attacked my mother?! Nothing less.

I agree that my poetry is bad, thats because I'm not a poet. No skin off my back. I have fun doing it.

Yes, intelligent thoughts on the topic. That's what it's all about. I'm interested in some threads that you started, but I never see any discussions, which I find strange. I'm calling them as I see them.

No worries, I'll ignore you and let you do what you do. That will be for the best.
Paix, Amour et Lumiere
01-17-2013, 03:38 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-17-2013, 03:39 AM by macfadden.)
RE: Ancient Mind Control: Sleep Temples and Ritual Incubation
Watchdog Wrote:Just remember that you attacked me first with really bad insults, and then someone joined in and attacked my mother?! Nothing less.

What in the hell are you talking about? I have never insulted you and how in the hell am I responsible for what any person other than myself has posted?

I do remember asking you not to disrupt my threads with non sequiturs and raunchy poetry, other than that you're going to have show me the post that got you vendetta stalking me all over the forum.

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