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Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
09-21-2012, 06:59 PM,
#1
Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
September 20, 2012
Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

When Karen L. King, a historian of early Christianity, announced this week that she had identified a fragment of ancient Coptic text in which Jesus utters the words “my wife,” she said she was making the finding public — despite many unresolved questions — so that her academic colleagues could weigh in.

And weigh in, they have. A few said that the papyrus must be a forgery. Others have questioned Dr. King’s interpretation of its meaning. Some have faulted her for publishing a paper on an item of unknown provenance. And many have criticized her decision to give the scrap of papyrus the attention-getting title “The Gospel of Jesus’s Wife,” as if it had equal weight to other, lengthier texts that are known as Gospels.

But even some of those casting doubt are also applauding her work. Many scholars said in interviews that they were excited by the discovery, because if it is genuine, it suggests at least one community of early adherents to Christianity believed that Jesus was married.

“It’s obviously an important find,” said Carl R. Holladay, professor of New Testament studies at the Candler School of Theology at Emory University.

However, he added, “The circumstances in which it’s come to light really require all scholars to be really cautious about how we proceed.”

Dr. King has reiterated that the fragment is not proof that Jesus was married because it was most likely written three and a half centuries after his death, making it historically unreliable. She has emphasized that the fragment is merely a glimpse of a discussion among early Christians about whether their savior was married or celibate.

Despite her cautions, the finding has prompted “Jesus Was Married” headlines around the world — and jokes about Mrs. Jesus’ “honey-do” list.

The papyrus fragment, which measures only about 1 ½ by 3 inches, is written in Coptic that Dr. King says is consistent with writing seen in fourth-century Egypt. It is roughly rectangular, torn on all four sides, so that each line of text is incomplete. The ink on the front side contains eight lines, dark enough to be legible. Line 4 purportedly says, “Jesus said to them, ‘My wife...’ ”

Other phrases in the text suggest that it is an account of a dialogue between Jesus and his disciples, Dr. King maintains. According to her translation, Line 3 includes the words “Mary is worthy of it.” Line 5, immediately after the line about Jesus’ wife, says, “...she will be able to be my disciple.” Line 7 says, “As for me, I dwell with her in order to...”

Dr. King, who holds a chair at Harvard Divinity School, has written extensively about the Gospels of Mary, Judas and Philip, relatively recent discoveries that are not a part of the established biblical canon. Even before this week, Dr. King was a favorite target of religious leaders who consider the Bible the literal word of God.

Two years ago, Dr. King said, she received an e-mail from a collector who asked her to translate a piece of papyrus that contained a reference to Jesus’ wife. She said that the owner does not know the provenance of the fragment, and has asked to remain anonymous.

In Rome, Dr. King presented a paper on the papyrus on Tuesday at a meeting of the International Association of Coptic Studies. The Associated Press quoted several of her colleagues there as saying that the handwriting, grammar and shape of the fragment made them suspect it was forged. (Several of those scholars did not respond to e-mails or to phone messages.).

Reached at her hotel in Rome, Dr. King said that as soon as she returns to the United States, she plans to have the ink on the fragment tested to determine whether it is truly ancient.

“The testing won’t be definitive, but it will be one more piece” of evidence, she said. She already had it examined by two papyrologists and a Coptic linguist, who deemed it most likely authentic.

Several scholars said in interviews that Dr. King should not have agreed to study the fragment without verifying that it was not obtained illegally.

Jennifer Sheridan Moss, president of the American Society of Papyrologists and an associate professor of classics at Wayne State University in Detroit, said that the society would probably not publish a paper on a piece of papyrus without knowing its provenance. “But if something this interesting came up, I suspect we would pursue more information on its provenance,” she said.

Aside from questions about the fragment’s authenticity and provenance, some scholars have questioned Dr. King’s interpretation, since the fragment lacks context. Echoing others, Darrell L. Bock, senior research professor of New Testament studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, said in an interview that “my wife” could be a metaphorical reference to “the church,” which in the Bible the apostle Paul calls “the bride” of Christ.

But Dr. Holladay disagreed, saying: “The papyrus seems to reflect some kind of conversation between Jesus and his disciples in which he’s talking about real people. The language is not being used metaphorically.”
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09-22-2012, 12:57 AM,
#2
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
Jesus' wife... well, to be... ...the true Church (the bride of Christ). So, it may say such a thing, as the article goes into. That which the article seems to avoid is mentioning the fragments age, which is about 400AD. There are thoughts that it is a translation/transliteration of an earlier text, yet there's no evidence of this as of yet. But even if such evidence existed, it would still be later than the books we already have in the canonical text, well, translations thereof.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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09-22-2012, 02:39 AM,
#3
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2012/09/RIR-120913.php


Joseph Atwill, Fritz Heede & Nijole Sparkis - Hour 1 - The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus
September 13, 2012
Joseph Atwill is an independent scholar who has set the world of New Testament scholarship in a new direction. In his book Caesar's Messiah, Atwill outlines the series of events in Jesus' ministry that are parallels with the events of the battle campaign of Titus Flavius. His research has been made into a documentary. Through interviews with seven controversial Bible scholars, the "Caesar's Messiah" documentary shows that Christianity was invented by the Romans as a political tool to control the masses of the day, and it is still being used this way today. Producer/Director of the film Fritz Heede along with Co-Producer/Writer Nijole Sparkis also join in on this interview. In the first hour, we’ll retrace Joseph’s main thesis, including Caesar’s possible intentions behind the gospels. In the second hour, we’ll discuss literary techniques used by the Romans. Atwill explains Titus typology and reversal of the gospels. He also reveals the logic puzzle of the last four gospels. Later, we talk about the need for new myths. Also, we’ll discuss what method of thought can set us free from doctrine.
“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.” Travis Walton
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09-22-2012, 07:32 PM,
#4
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
(09-22-2012, 02:39 AM)Frank2 Wrote: http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2012/09/RIR-120913.php


Joseph Atwill, Fritz Heede & Nijole Sparkis - Hour 1 - The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus
September 13, 2012
Joseph Atwill is an independent scholar who has set the world of New Testament scholarship in a new direction. In his book Caesar's Messiah, Atwill outlines the series of events in Jesus' ministry that are parallels with the events of the battle campaign of Titus Flavius. His research has been made into a documentary. Through interviews with seven controversial Bible scholars, the "Caesar's Messiah" documentary shows that Christianity was invented by the Romans as a political tool to control the masses of the day, and it is still being used this way today. Producer/Director of the film Fritz Heede along with Co-Producer/Writer Nijole Sparkis also join in on this interview. In the first hour, we’ll retrace Joseph’s main thesis, including Caesar’s possible intentions behind the gospels. In the second hour, we’ll discuss literary techniques used by the Romans. Atwill explains Titus typology and reversal of the gospels. He also reveals the logic puzzle of the last four gospels. Later, we talk about the need for new myths. Also, we’ll discuss what method of thought can set us free from doctrine.

Another "Jesus was invented" story to add to the long list. Knowing Yeshua personally is the only way to certainty on such issues. Doubters will always exist, until the end of the "social order".
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
Reply
09-22-2012, 07:37 PM,
#5
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
(09-22-2012, 07:32 PM)Dunamis Wrote:
(09-22-2012, 02:39 AM)Frank2 Wrote: http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2012/09/RIR-120913.php


Joseph Atwill, Fritz Heede & Nijole Sparkis - Hour 1 - The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus
September 13, 2012
Joseph Atwill is an independent scholar who has set the world of New Testament scholarship in a new direction. In his book Caesar's Messiah, Atwill outlines the series of events in Jesus' ministry that are parallels with the events of the battle campaign of Titus Flavius. His research has been made into a documentary. Through interviews with seven controversial Bible scholars, the "Caesar's Messiah" documentary shows that Christianity was invented by the Romans as a political tool to control the masses of the day, and it is still being used this way today. Producer/Director of the film Fritz Heede along with Co-Producer/Writer Nijole Sparkis also join in on this interview. In the first hour, we’ll retrace Joseph’s main thesis, including Caesar’s possible intentions behind the gospels. In the second hour, we’ll discuss literary techniques used by the Romans. Atwill explains Titus typology and reversal of the gospels. He also reveals the logic puzzle of the last four gospels. Later, we talk about the need for new myths. Also, we’ll discuss what method of thought can set us free from doctrine.

Another "Jesus was invented" story to add to the long list. Knowing Yeshua personally is the only way to certainty on such issues. Doubters will always exist, until the end of the "social order".

You don't know shit.

Sorry but I know for a fact you do not know Yeshua.
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09-22-2012, 07:38 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-23-2012, 07:55 PM by h3rm35.)
#6
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
(09-22-2012, 12:57 AM)Dunamis Wrote: Jesus' wife... well, to be... ...the true Church (the bride of Christ). So, it may say such a thing, as the article goes into. That which the article seems to avoid is mentioning the fragments age, which is about 400AD. There are thoughts that it is a translation/transliteration of an earlier text, yet there's no evidence of this as of yet. But even if such evidence existed, it would still be later than the books we already have in the canonical text, well, translations thereof.

I posted this piece rather than the first one I found (which mentioned the suspected date... which is yet to be proven,) because it seemed more balanced. When I read the first one my train of thoght went something like this:
"400AD. Hmmm. that's when the possibilities of an honest Jesus-based faith [edit: religion] went to hell."

I honestly am not convinced of its validity. I think the timing is interesting, as a debate about a coptic writing relating a touchy religious subject gets more attention paid to the recently released full Coptic dictionary. It would increase sales because people can check out a copy of this papyrus and "translate" it themselves.
[Image: conspiracy_theory.jpg]
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09-23-2012, 07:14 PM,
#7
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
(09-22-2012, 07:37 PM)psilocybin Wrote: You don't know shit.

Sorry but I know for a fact you do not know Yeshua.

Cheers, thanks for the warm welcome back. You are right though, I know very little, almost nothing in fact. Yet I do know Yeshua, and ask always of the Father that He would continue to conform me to His image and likeness, glorifying Himself alone through all I say, do and think.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
Reply
09-23-2012, 08:03 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-23-2012, 08:04 PM by h3rm35.)
#8
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
(09-22-2012, 07:37 PM)psilocybin Wrote:
(09-22-2012, 07:32 PM)Dunamis Wrote: Another "Jesus was invented" story to add to the long list. Knowing Yeshua personally is the only way to certainty on such issues. Doubters will always exist, until the end of the "social order".

You don't know shit.

Sorry but I know for a fact you do not know Yeshua.

I'm pretty sure that he didn't say he did in that instance. He said the only way to know for sure was to know him personally (I read: personally as in physically interacted,) and implied that was impossible unless you lived in his "time" and talked to the guy.

Feel free to correct me if I didn't get the essence of your comment properly, Dunamis. I'm not trying to speak for you or even defend you. I'm just trying to clarify what you actually meant for my own curiosity.
[Image: conspiracy_theory.jpg]
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09-23-2012, 08:37 PM,
#9
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
(09-23-2012, 08:03 PM)h3rm35 Wrote: I'm pretty sure that he didn't say he did in that instance. He said the only way to know for sure was to know him personally (I read: personally as in physically interacted,) and implied that was impossible unless you lived in his "time" and talked to the guy.

Feel free to correct me if I didn't get the essence of your comment properly, Dunamis. I'm not trying to speak for you or even defend you. I'm just trying to clarify what you actually meant for my own curiosity.

You are right that I didn't say it in the first instance, yet I meant personally as in "on a personal and intimate level", as in with a close friend, close family member or partner. I cannot say I knew Him before my recent hiatus, though I was trying to get to know Him. Now, I try my utmost, by God's strength, to imitate Him. A lot has happened in this past year, and particularly since March/April time to bring my more in line to the image of God's Son.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
Reply
09-24-2012, 06:48 AM,
#10
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
(09-23-2012, 08:03 PM)h3rm35 Wrote:
(09-22-2012, 07:37 PM)psilocybin Wrote:
(09-22-2012, 07:32 PM)Dunamis Wrote: Another "Jesus was invented" story to add to the long list. Knowing Yeshua personally is the only way to certainty on such issues. Doubters will always exist, until the end of the "social order".

You don't know shit.

Sorry but I know for a fact you do not know Yeshua.

I'm pretty sure that he didn't say he did in that instance. He said the only way to know for sure was to know him personally (I read: personally as in physically interacted,) and implied that was impossible unless you lived in his "time" and talked to the guy.

Feel free to correct me if I didn't get the essence of your comment properly, Dunamis. I'm not trying to speak for you or even defend you. I'm just trying to clarify what you actually meant for my own curiosity.

I did not mean to take his comment wrong, if I did, but if I didn't then I meant every bit about it.

I read it as some kind of "if you were as enlightened as me" type thing, of which I have zero patience for in the realm of arguing for a religion.
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09-24-2012, 08:07 AM,
#11
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
Quote:I read it as some kind of "if you were as enlightened as me" type thing, of which I have zero patience for in the realm of arguing for a religion.
I can fully understand your reaction.

One thing that Christians have proved to me over and over again, especially at the hardcore level, they are some of the biggest Posers to roam this plane, a self-righteous lot, obsessed with hogging the limelight with their self-pronounced holiness.

Then, when you start reading between the lines of what actually leaks out of these unfortunate beings, the latent megalomania and sense of superiority make one cringe with shame.
Quote:"I am but a humble servant of our Lord Yeshua"
.... yeah sure, humble as hell, power tripping maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdMDcG3zAEI
History's 3rd dimension is always fiction
Competition is a sin
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09-24-2012, 05:49 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-24-2012, 05:51 PM by h3rm35.)
#12
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
You know, I get both of your points about bleating, bible-thumping holier-than-thou members of the flock of personality (to coin a phrase), who, when challenged, answer with brain-dead dogmatic misinterpretation that defies all logic. It drives me more insane than they are to begin with. It's just been my experience that Dunamis doesn't tend to be that type of guy, so I figured I'd interject an opportunity to clarify before it got too heated. Looking back, it wasn't really my place to do so. I'll stay out of it next time.
[Image: conspiracy_theory.jpg]
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09-25-2012, 09:53 AM,
#13
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
@h3rm35 - good to keep the peace

To get back on topic after this interlude, I find it odd that there is so much discussion about this in the first place. It is like discussing if the top officials of Sirius B prefer Audi to BMW. Maybe if some hitherto obscure edition of Superman pops up we can start discussing whether or not the rumors about Mr. Kent's naughty tattoo are credible or just Lutherian slander.
History's 3rd dimension is always fiction
Competition is a sin
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09-25-2012, 11:48 PM,
#14
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
gad zooks, we may as well be talking about charlie sheen. jesus christ, superstar...
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09-26-2012, 12:12 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-26-2012, 12:13 AM by h3rm35.)
#15
RE: Coptic Scholars Doubt and Hail a Reference to Jesus’ Wife
Something tells me they didn't have much cocaine in the Roman Empire... hookers yes, cocaine, no.

and therein lies the reason why this gets spoken about as much as it does. The only person in most writings that Jesus would've married was Mary Magdalene, and most people who are Christian but allow other people to interpret scriptures for them will staunchly back the idea that she was a whore. If she was, as they have to dogmatically believe, there's no way that they'd ever accept their God-Man as husband to a whore.
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