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The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
04-25-2009, 06:19 AM,
#91
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
May I respectively ask what you believe? You mention Sumeria.
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04-25-2009, 07:35 AM,
#92
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Hi Hilly7...

What do I believe? Just about nothing I guess.. I am only interested in knowing, and one thing we do know is that the church-fathers took as the basis of the text for their old testament, the Enuma Elish, which is the ancient Sumerian record of how life as we know it began on this planet.

Hi Nik, indeed casting out Satan is not in the equation, quite apart from it not being possible, the very attempt to cast from oneself, something that is a part of oneself is ludicrous in the extreme, to say nothing of self-defeating.. How to understand Satan, now that would be a much more profitable enterprise than attempting to cast out what cannot be cast out..

This is difficult, I could say a lot of things about this, such as blending the higher with the lower in order to indulge a harnelmiatznel which creates a new mesoteric in ourselves, but I'm sure if I were to say something like that, many would assume this is something I believe, and many would not have a clue what I was saying, and still others would dismiss it out of hand - moreover still without knowing what was meant by it.

As Gurdjieff said to one seeker of truth who enquired of him - something like - "you have to send the whole world to the devil, the whole world, and God too, after all, God may come to you in disguise and play a trick on you!"

The truth is in you, not out there "somewhere"... of course it is out there too, but if one has not found it within themselves then there is no yardstick for what is out there, no way to measure the ineffability or otherwise of the exoteric without the esoteric.

Lucy's in the Sky mit der diamonds.. :-) :-)

Tally Ho,

David

:-)



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04-25-2009, 07:46 AM,
#93
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Hi Standvast,

Just reading what you said above about humans not really digging chaos, and thus feeling the need to categorise everything.

Chaos is a perception within the individual Holy-Chao not an objective reality in the Universe.

You know the really crazy thing, the scariest thing of all, I think, is the fact that the alleged nauttoniers of this planet (I doubt they could navigate their way out of a paper bag) assume that because they do not understand an ordered Universe that it is therefore chaotic. And then, not finding this to their liking they set about attempting to control everything existing outside of themselves!

Long may it remain so in their understanding.

All Hail Eris
All Hail Discordia.

Tally Ho,

David

:-)

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04-25-2009, 08:45 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-25-2009, 08:46 AM by ---.)
#94
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:This is difficult, I could say a lot of things about this, such as blending the higher with the lower in order to indulge a harnelmiatznel which creates a new mesoteric in ourselves, but I'm sure if I were to say something like that, many would assume this is something I believe, and many would not have a clue what I was saying, and still others would dismiss it out of hand - moreover still without knowing what was meant by it.

I'm glad you're here.

You add a nice something to the mix:)

'Casting out' or 'locking down' is one thing, as is 'understanding one's nature' but as it is the shadow runs rampant and allows a free flow of the worst possible potentialities - this NEEDS to be checked imsho

Who the fuck is 'Eris"???? Maybe you can persuade Freeman to come and debate it with us:LOL:*hint* (ish)
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04-25-2009, 10:16 AM,
#95
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Black Lion, are you speaking about the ying/yang. Actually I do somewhat think I know what you are talking about. I have a good friend that I worked with that believed as the Sumerians did. I'd like to say we sometimes debated beliefs, but that would not be accurate, he studied all beliefs and knew them all better than I did. More correct would be I listened and questioned him. We don't work together and haven't kept in touch, other than an occassional email or call. I have a lot of respect for JJ and honored our time we spent together. This sounds like something he would say. Man I miss those conversations. We didn't agree on many things but we did on many things, I learned a lot from him.
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04-25-2009, 10:38 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-25-2009, 10:43 AM by standvast.)
#96
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Hi Black Lion , thanks for the additional words and your general presence on the boards/ :)

Black Lion Wrote:Just reading what you said above about humans not really digging chaos, and thus feeling the need to categorise everything.

Chaos is a perception within the individual Holy-Chao not an objective reality in the Universe.

since it is all about perspectives, and not objective realities,..

IMHO ;
My stance is that the only medium by which existence / everything begets order, is the individual mind,
It seems not only that humans don't digg Khaos, but that they simply can not compute it or orientate on / in it,
and therefor their individual mental coordinators rebel against it and deny it .
(pure ) Khaos is "unacceptible" to humans for it lacks all definition,
and , to humans, things are not "real" unless they beget name, place, function, characteristics ; descriptive properties.
The human orientation requires order, and will find it in/draw it fromout a reflection on Khaos,

We may know the forms , names and shapes, but not the Khaos from which they arise,
we know our thoughts, our words, our manifest Will, but not the Khaos that is everything in potential.
so Sure, in a sense i'd agree that Khaos is "a perception" , when taken to mean that
chaos , like order, would not be percieved as such if not for the human mind classifying.
But besides that, philosophically Khaos (to me) can also be a term for -the essence of everything and all-,
before -Khaos- is reflected upon ( begets itself as an observer) or; ""the One pluralizes"",
only when that transpired, is when/how all possible forms of envisioned order were born.

Black Lion Wrote:You know the really crazy thing, the scariest thing of all, I think, is the fact that the alleged nauttoniers of this planet (I doubt they could navigate their way out of a paper bag) assume that because they do not understand an ordered Universe that it is therefore chaotic.

B)
Our order is only as real as the Khaos it sprang from.

Black Lion Wrote:What do I believe? Just about nothing I guess.. I am only interested in knowing, and one thing we do know is that the church-fathers took as the basis of the text for their old testament, the Enuma Elish, which is the ancient Sumerian record of how life as we know it began on this planet.

in case you'ld like to discuss ideas about creation myths and comparative cosmogonies,
sounds good to me,.. start a thread or revive an older one suited.

Nik Wrote:Who the fuck is 'Eris"????

that is for you to discover, dont make me taint your visions of the goddess...
I praise her at every instant, but my primary allegiance lies elsewhere.

Quote:Gospel of Harvey the Invisible Rabbit, 11:1-4

1
It came to pass that HARVEY had bedazzled the mutitude that had gathered
by pulling Himself out of a hat.
2
Then one who is known as Randi ben James the Rational said unto HARVEY,
"O Leporine Divine, what shall become of those who doubt Thy existence?"
3
Whereupon the Becarroted One said,
"Verily, I shallt cut a portion of Slack unto them for
I am not a megalomaniac.
4
Truly, 'tis better to use gentle persuasion than to open up a Can o' Smite-Ass."


[Image: rasselbock.jpg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5bkVRhiqsY

:)

namaste'
If Thine I that I spy with my own little I Doeth Offend thee ; Pluck It out.

Reply
04-25-2009, 12:27 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-25-2009, 12:32 PM by Black Lion.)
#97
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Freeman? who Alan? Bernard? :-)

Hi Nik, whilst I would not personally (like Standvast) wish to lessen someone else's perception of the Mighty Eris, I will be slightly kinder (or not - depending on your viewpoint I suppose) give you a clue.. "Robert Anton Wilson", may he rest in Peace. :-)

Hi Hilly7, yes I suppose I am speaking about yin and yang, because everything arising of and from this world is part of the duality that expresses.. In terms of things like God and the devil, or if you like the higher and lower components existing in a man potentially at first. But this is the world of the five senses and 'words' which are the only tool we have for communication in this medium are a part of that duality.. and yin and yang are an expression of duality in gender terms.. and one can apply gender terms to anything - if one wishes to..

Many of the alchemists of old for instance regarded the Sun as male and the Moon as female, but there is nothing arbitrary in this in my opinion, one can reverse those roles and still acquire a representative model of the Universe that reflects reality from some perspective.

Perspective, which Standvast mentions is the whole crux of it (perception).. "it's not what you're looking at, but where you're looking from"... and that objective reality you mention Standvast, the all that is when you take it to the limit... that everything, is something we ourselves are a part of, and so we cannot objectify it because we cannot get outside of it and view the entirety..

But that's Okay, it's all part of the Fun - not knowing what we don't need to know - I like it that way.. so much we do need to know after all. IMHO your HO is pretty much spot on.. Aha, I see something there... I was wondering what 'Khaos' with a 'K' meant to you, my son had a sticker with it on, on the back of his van once.. I took it off because it didn't seem to be doing him any good! But I digress.. you wrote

"We may know the forms , names and shapes, but not the Khaos from which they arise, we know our thoughts, our words, our manifest Will, but not the Khaos that is everything in potential."

Aha indeed, in which case, this pure Khaos of which you speak is none other than pure undivided light, out of which the manifest world of form and emptiness is created by dividing the light.. It's the original Lucifer trick, it's how the creator God made this world... and no, I don't know who he is, or *what* I should say rather, since at this level of the spiritual hierarchy gender is meaningless, but yes it's probably the one the monotheists think of as "God Almighty"...

And so, we are Piggy in the middle it seems, if we are aware of our essential nature I mean, and not fooled by dualistic thinking. On one hand is form, and on the other emptiness, a creation of divided light, yet essentially we are undivided light. Out of the stillness we have descended, into the world of motion, of form and space. The temporal world, constantly in motion, constantly changing, yet it is not true to say that the ONLY constant is change, the real essence of things does not change, only the outer form, so we ourselves, not as we ordinarily are or as we ordinarily perceive ourselves, but as we are in essence, as we were before we were 'born' do not change essentially.

You also wrote.. "Our order is only as real as the Khaos it sprang from."... so now we're talking the order 'we' (as a species) have yet to find, The Natural Order, because what you describe as Khaos is none other than pure light, the only thing of permanence, all else it's plaything..

So we'd better wake up to that and get used to it, because this Universe operates by the reciprocal feeding of everything existing, and if we don't learn that we (as humans) are not the top of the food chain in this Universe and learn what 'we' can and shouldn't eat, we will simply be swallowed up by the Great Trogoautoegocrat.. Recycled, into a piece of moonrock perhaps (nothing dies).. Because when we enter here, into this arena, we are not born with an immortal soul, not even a developed soul, only the seed needed from which a soul can be grown.. a photon of pure light.. a spark out of the great cosmic fire if you will, yet an unnurtured spark will fade and die (as a spark) just as a man who does not work on hirself will lose the possibility to develop further when hir planetary body gives up the 'ghost'..

Thanks for the invitation to start a thread on Creation Myths, sounds like a good idea to me, and I just had an inspiration what to start it with, though for tonight I think I'll take a rest.

All Hail Harvey The Invisible Rabbit!
All Hail The Almighty Jackalope!

Cheers

David

:-)
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04-25-2009, 12:32 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-25-2009, 12:33 PM by mothandrust.)
#98
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:You know the really crazy thing, the scariest thing of all, I think, is the fact that the alleged nauttoniers of this planet (I doubt they could navigate their way out of a paper bag) assume that because they do not understand an ordered Universe that it is therefore chaotic. And then, not finding this to their liking they set about attempting to control everything existing outside of themselves!
yeah, nicely put. well, it fits with my perspective.

.

you must "receive your demons" - see through them, turn on a light. fighting them in darkness just gives them more power.

.

edit: and yeah, nice to have your input Black Lion (the name of my local pub)
Vitam Impendere Vero
Reply
04-25-2009, 12:35 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-25-2009, 12:39 PM by Black Lion.)
#99
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Bravo Moth&Rust

Yes, sup with them, demons need love too..

Turn on your lovelights Folks, if ya don't make Love the only alternative is war, as people seem incapable of stillness at this point in their evolution :-)

Tally Ho,

David

:-)

(Edit) P.S. Cool, my local (one of them) in England was The Red Lion, well one of them anyway. But we had a lot of animal totems on our pubs round there, "White Horse", "Dog and Bear"... Hmm.. "Pig and Whistle".. I could go on but I seem to be naming too many pubs for a non-drinker.. Cheers :-)

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04-25-2009, 02:19 PM,
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
:D thanks for your lucent reply Black Lion,
and you are right, one can hold his tongue on the goddess , but still give direction ,
so here's the hand with the finger pointing to page 28, Nik , enjoy.
http://www.23ae.com/files/PrincipiaDiscordia.pdf

If Thine I that I spy with my own little I Doeth Offend thee ; Pluck It out.

Reply
04-26-2009, 02:13 AM,
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
LOL nice one nik! I guess this pretty much concludes The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer 101!! Class dismissed!!!

JJ B)
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04-26-2009, 10:11 AM,
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Excellent, see you all at the Passing Out Parade then.. :-)

Thanks Y'All for the cognoscent interaction..

David

:-)

Reply
04-29-2009, 06:05 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-29-2009, 06:06 AM by jack.)
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
I came back, whether or not it was a good decision, remains to be seen.

Quote:
Jack Wrote:standvast is being quite nice, I think that he should get credit for it, he could of just laughed at you. Instead he put effort into writing posts that to me, sound very nonjudgmental, I think he was trying to be helpful,

:D thanks Jack,
I was/am trying to be helpful, thanks for recognizing..
but i also simply felt the scenario sketched by Dhammer was screaming for a contrast,..
Your welcome, I certainly noticed that you put forth your contrast in a polite manner, as tho your intentions were to be helpful, I think that you could of approached it very differently, - but you didn't ;)


standvast Wrote:
http://gnosis.org/welcome.html Wrote:The following characteristics may be considered normative for all Gnostic teachers and groups in the era of classical Gnosticism;
thus one who adheres to some or all of them today might properly be called a Gnostic:

-The Gnostics posited an original spiritual unity that came to be split into a plurality.

-As a result of the precosmic division the universe was created.

-This was done by a leader possessing inferior spiritual powers and who often resembled the Old Testament Jehovah.

-A female emanation of God was involved in the cosmic creation (albeit in a much more positive role than the leader).

-In the cosmos, space and time have a malevolent character and may be personified as demonic beings separating man from God.

-For man, the universe is a vast prison. He is enslaved both by the physical laws of nature and by such moral laws as the Mosaic code.

-Mankind may be personified as Adam, who lies in the deep sleep of ignorance, his powers of spiritual self-awareness stupefied by materiality.

-Within each natural man is an "inner man," a fallen spark of the divine substance.
Since this exists in each man, we have the possibility of awakening from our stupefaction.


-What effects the awakening is not obedience, faith, or good works, but knowledge.

-Before the awakening, men undergo troubled dreams.

-Man does not attain the knowledge that awakens him from these dreams by cognition but through revelatory experience,
and this knowledge is not information but a modification of the sensate being.


-The awakening (i.e., the salvation) of any individual is a cosmic event.

-Since the effort is to restore the wholeness and unity of the Godhead,
active rebellion against the moral law of the Old Testament is enjoined upon every man.

(the site form the above quote also has free audio for download on different aspects of Gnosticism,
see here ; http://www.gnosis.org/lectures.html )

Now, i wouldn't say i fully agree with this ;

-What effects the awakening is not obedience, faith, or good works, but knowledge.

because i believe that a certain form of obedience (to Natural law) and the performance of "Good Works"
are just as if not More important than knowledge, for i believe that knowledge alone (without Ethics or spiritual basis) is void,
and certainly not the only aspect that aids to ones spiritual awakening / salvation.


I sorta wondered if you can find yourself in some of the above mentioned characteristics.
Yes I can, even in more than the ones you've bolded.



standvast Wrote:for i believe that knowledge alone (without Ethics or spiritual basis) is void,...
I most def agree to this statement, in fact I feel that knowledge without ethics can be and often is very destructive to others that come in contact with the one that has said "knowledge"
Same with love without empathy. It may be true that we all need to fix out own problems, but a love that says I'm ok and if your not - "it's not my problem, it's yours," is unloving and selfish - & imo is as destructive as knowledge without ethics.




As for the Lucifer part, a bit more thought is required on my part, bc like I said I don't see lucifer as Lucifer.



standvast Wrote:Do you find it so hard to comprehend that many people (Christian and otherwise) do not believe in a literal satan,
and find the idea so damn absurd , that they refuse to even entertain the notion >?
I realize that this was directed at DHammer, but still - I would like to comment

I think that satan is rather easy to believe in, it's the forever torture in hell that I have rejected. I don't even interpret the book as saying that's the case.
I do not believe that anyone is going to burn in hell forever, I think forever burning in agony is a scare tactic put forth by the catholic church.

Now whether or not this satan is inside/mind or outside/real of man, I'm unsure.
The explanation of (in the mind) sounds good enough, but I remain unconvinced & uncertain.
I have had an experiences that would lead me to believe that there are unseen entities, that are more than just mans psyche.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
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04-29-2009, 06:31 AM,
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Jobujack Wrote:Ok seriously, this thread is not about the Christian Bible or Jesus...it is about Lucifer, ..
Black Lion Wrote:(back on track)
threads change all the time

This forum has always had a majority of peeps who get uptight whenever the biblical Jesus or even just the bible comes up, of course the "christ consciousness" is just fine.
Yet very few get made at those who call jesus bs. - One of them has been banned, and there are only a few who even believe in him left. - less than a handful
I really don't get it, it all falls under the R&O heading and again - threads change all the time.


Black Lion Wrote:Let's hope we are (back on track) Hilly7. I just finished reading the whole Lucifer story that started this off, having glanced at it last night and then read quite a lot of the subsequent feedback - and I see it's scared some of you !
Hmmm, I didn't notice anyone getting scared, who's scared ? Just one who strongly disagreed.
Perhaps that was wishful thinking on your part.


Black Lion Wrote:Soon after being birthed I was 'Christened' at Bath Abbey.. I was not asked if I wished this of course..
of course you realize that was a meaningless ritual - by your parents, for your parents, It meant nothing toward or about you - being done as a baby and not by you, for you.


Black Lion Wrote:And that Bible which many of you place such great store by
LMAO, trust me, those that do are a wee minority around here - seriously.
One of them may be here being nice to you (I'm unsure) another, if reading any of this, is probably shaking his head at what he perceives as brown nosing. But I really shouldn't guess what others are thinking, - he might not be.
As for me - yes, I like the book, it's one of my favorites (well not the OT - nor paul so much) and so is the NT man known in english as Jesus the Christ.



nik Wrote:
Black Lion Wrote:One thing I can tell you for certain is that you will not find Satan anywhere else if you have not found Satan in yourself.

*sigh* seems so - but how do we cast 'satan' out is my question.. possibly the species facilitates and manifests such as entity through archetype - perhaps 'casting out' isn't even in the equation.. at the moment whatever it is has free reign amongst us.
"seems so" - Are you certain ?
Like I said to standvast, I have had experiences that would lead me to believe that there are unseen entities, that are more than just man's psyche. I agree with rest.


.......................................


guess I should check out the welcome region more often, so I can see just who the smart people are compared to the "daft," "fall for anything" peeps.

Black Lion Wrote:Oh well, bring on the next 'Jesus Christ candidate', they're s'posed to be legion in these times after all - just didn't think anyone would be daft enough to fall for that, so didn't think anyone would be daft enough to try it. You live and learn though eh :-)

The moral would appear to be; No matter how daft you think people can get, they can always get dafter!

Tally Ho,

David.

:-)
black lion Wrote:"love everything that breaths"

don'tya just luv me already;):D
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
04-29-2009, 06:46 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-29-2009, 06:47 AM by ---.)
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:
nik Wrote:
Black Lion Wrote:One thing I can tell you for certain is that you will not find Satan anywhere else if you have not found Satan in yourself.

*sigh* seems so - but how do we cast 'satan' out is my question.. possibly the species facilitates and manifests such as entity through archetype - perhaps 'casting out' isn't even in the equation.. at the moment whatever it is has free reign amongst us.
"seems so" - Are you certain ?
Like I said to standvast, I have had experiences that would lead me to believe that there are unseen entities, that are more than just man's psyche. I agree with rest.

I really don't know. But the more I learn the more I am thinking that the hoodwink is that we are unwittingly made to bring it out of ourselves..I'm not suggesting there aren't other forces but rather that we are the vehicle - we facilitate through being ignorant of our own shadow - en masse, generally speaking...
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