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The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
04-19-2009, 12:48 PM,
#46
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:
Jack Wrote:I did find that page most interesting. I really appreciate you pointing that site out to me, the notes are great too.
Thanks, it causes me to want to learn more about numerology.

Glad to hear,
i found it pretty interesting myself.
I was reading up on the Pythagorean system , or what i could find about it,..
and ran across some more links,
especially like the first one, as it connects to Mythological motifs. ;

http://www.numeralgame.64g.ru/num1en.htm
http://www.kalvesmaki.com/Arithmetic/index.htm
http://www.sephar.net/index.htm
http://www.psyche.com/psyche/qbl/comparative_numerology.html

Jack Wrote:I hope that was a satisfactory answer, tho I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) that you would of be pleased by a simple - no, Lucifer is not Satan.

I think you answered very well-considered and in depth , thanks for that.
TBH , it does please me that you didn't choose the quick " No, not Satan" :D, ... i didn't expect you would.

namaste'
Good, I tried to explain myself, tho I'm not very good at it.
Oh, and I'm also pleased to be wrong about the short answer

I'm excited to check out those links here in a bit when I have some more free time, I just glanced at the first one so far, looks interesting.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
04-19-2009, 01:19 PM,
#47
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Jobujack Wrote:I have been curious as to why in the bible (I'm not sure which one's in particular) Jesus claims to be the morning star.
It probably has something to do with astronomy and symbolism, - the "celestial” nature of things, don't ya think. (for example - the star of david, one triangle points down and the other up, many believe it shows a linking of the visible and invisible world)
tho maybe it was all the sky gazing (old time tv - hehe) watching the skies for ufos, flying chariots, spinning wheels, mysterious clouds and all:P;)

Jobujack Wrote:Oh...and I do have a pretty good idea as to why Jesus was referred to as the morning star!!!
So if you have a good idea, why not just share it

Jobujack Wrote:Satan is just a fictional character made up by Christianity to blame for temptation of their sins on!!!
see Jobujack, even you have faith - "faith" that Satan is mere myth, be it an actual entity, or a symbol, a personification of man's ________. (phooey, I'm at a loss for the correct word, - I guess nature will have to do, - rebellious nature - arrogance/pride. No, that's not quite right, but the best that I can pull out of my gray matter at the moment, perhaps you see where I'm heading without it)


btw, Satan (real or imaginary) doesn't make anybody commit sin, they do it themselves by choice.
Where in the book does it blame humans making bad decisions on Satan ? (perhaps I missed it, - or perhaps you have taken the old cliché "the devil made me do it" too seriously)

As for Nebechadnezzer - he was brought to the lowly position of a beast, but then humbled himself before God and had his kingdom restored to him
&
Dr, Seuss is great, but no philosophy can save a person from the Most High. God does what God pleases, no mind set, however effectively it helps a person to get through this life can save you.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Quote:
Quote:DHammer, what do you think the main message of the bible is ???
give me your answer and I'll give you mine
:blush:
salvation
....
... it all comes down to salvation i think.
Salvation - Good answer :)

Besides, your fine answer and straight gate quote (Matthew 7:13) I would add that the whole of Matthew chapter 7 is a good text.
In particular verse 12 - "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."
or as the ISV translates it - "Therefore, whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them, because this summarizes the Law and the Prophets."

And Matthew 22:36-40 - “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ “This is the great and foremost commandment. “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Which brings my mind to Matthew 5:43-48 (all of Matthew really)
"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect"


DHammer Wrote:
Quote:He wanted equality with God and God tossed him down to earth.

satan wanted to take God's place, to ''exalt his throne above the stars of God', he did not want equality with God, im guessing he already had that, in spirit at least.
Good eye you have there, I totally missed that.
I would have to agree, that satan most def wanted to be BIGGER than God, or rather - to be God, to be worshiped as God.
Tho I'm not sure that satan was already equal to God, I would say that satan was lower.
Obviously howerer they were and still are a very powerful and intelligent entity.


&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
04-19-2009, 02:32 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-19-2009, 03:47 PM by Jobujack.)
#48
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:
Quote:QUOTE (Jobujack)
Oh...and I do have a pretty good idea as to why Jesus was referred to as the morning star!!!

So if you have a good idea, why not just share it

You answered that yourself jack...

Quote:
Quote:QUOTE (Jobujack)
I have been curious as to why in the bible (I'm not sure which one's in particular) Jesus claims to be the morning star.

It probably has something to do with astronomy and symbolism, - the "celestial” nature of things, don't ya think. (for example - the star of david, one triangle points down and the other up, many believe it shows a linking of the visible and invisible world)
tho maybe it was all the sky gazing (old time tv - hehe) watching the skies for ufos, flying chariots, spinning wheels, mysterious clouds and all tongue.gif wink.gif
Perhaps it was something symbolic that tied him/them to the morning star...like a birthmark or something silly like that. After all...with all the sky gazing they did back then if there was a child born on a certain date that had a birthmark that resembles something symbolic that the people look up to and worship as their Gods. Something like that would have been considered a sign from the heavens...or something to that effect.

Quote:QUOTE(jack)
btw, Satan (real or imaginary) doesn't make anybody commit sin, they do it themselves by choice.
Where in the book does it blame humans making bad decisions on Satan ? (perhaps I missed it, - or perhaps you have taken the old cliché "the devil made me do it" too seriously)
Yes I agree people are responsible for their own sin, from the thought through to the action and I'm pretty sure there isn't a book that says to shift the blame, unless there is a how to guide on becoming politician... :P

JJ
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04-19-2009, 04:39 PM,
#49
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:Yes, that is it. Thanks. In the Bible it speaks about faked prophets and false comings. My sister in law just the other day said something to the effect of it's in God's hands and will will all be spared the bad years by a second coming. We should trust and do nothing, something like that. I asked her what if God expected her to do something and was tired of hand-outs, maybe He expected people to put forth an effort in changing their own lives and world. Not a good thing to do.

Also if there is a god, I'm sure he'd want humans to fight the NWO as it goes against pretty much all the priciples of most major religeons. I fear that's the problem with many religeous people and those that believe in the 2012 'awakeing' that everything will be okay, so it's alright to do nothing. Which like you say is not a good thing to do.
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04-19-2009, 05:02 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-19-2009, 07:01 PM by Jobujack.)
#50
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:
Quote:QUOTE
Yes, that is it. Thanks. In the Bible it speaks about faked prophets and false comings. My sister in law just the other day said something to the effect of it's in God's hands and will will all be spared the bad years by a second coming. We should trust and do nothing, something like that. I asked her what if God expected her to do something and was tired of hand-outs, maybe He expected people to put forth an effort in changing their own lives and world. Not a good thing to do.


Also if there is a god, I'm sure he'd want humans to fight the NWO as it goes against pretty much all the priciples of most major religeons. I fear that's the problem with many religeous people and those that believe in the 2012 'awakeing' that everything will be okay, so it's alright to do nothing. Which like you say is not a good thing to do.

It really is sad that those religious people that think that way...it's like they don't realize/don't care that doing nothing is like doing the wrong thing when you know what the right thing to do is and don't do it!!!

*What Jesus would NOT do* (funny cartoon) :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE&feature=bz301

JJ
Reply
04-20-2009, 01:31 AM,
#51
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Genetically speaking, we have already changed the DNA in some areas via the food we consume and the drugs we use. I still think however that we have the choice in the end as to accept it or not... for now. If there were a sign that one could survive a coming disaster by changing the DNA or accepting a number, I believe that many would do it. Just look at what we do to each other for a dollar, even worse if power is involved.


Most people have false faith, be it a theist or atheist, it doesn't matter. We have faith in ourselves, science, religion (as long as we get what we want), faith in our countries, even faith in our false faith. Religions have been used especially in the last 30-40 years to either line a pocket or create a division by those who supposedly follow the religion and an excuse for those who don't. That doesn't mean all, but many. Many falter or see those that do and rather than correct their falter or assist another who has fallen. The easiest thing is to as my grandparents use to say, "Lay there are waller in it".


We're taught that we're due something on earth and if we pray hard enough, it will come true these days. Lately though I've noticed many Christians locally waiting for God to do it and blaming it on the devil, not all, but the number has grown over the last 30-40 years. The devil can only suggest, yet when we submit, it is us that chose. I think the first time I saw the devil being a personality was on Laugh-In in the 60s. I watched that show every time it came on. Looking back I see the damage it became with "The devil made me do it." Harmless sounding enough and funny at the time, it desensitized people and gave a mythical perspective on the devil and even worse, a reason to not accept responsibility for their actions. The greatest accomplishment the devil has achieved is to make people not think he is not real. His second was to give an excuse at those who believed he was real for their actions rather than look inside at their own lacking.


Now somewhere a line was drawn in the sand and those that followed (I'm using Christianity since I fall under that classification), began to toss the baby out with the bath water. I don't know the Bible verses near as I should and I have seen atheists know more than I do (selectively). Worshipping the stars and celestial events are wrong, but following them is all around the Bible. Numerology, mother earth or mother nature, and many other things aren't wrong. IMHO. God gave us signs in the heavens and on the earth to use and somewhere someone decided to say no? I think the Bible is a road map and a history book, but like anything it can be misused by bad people to adjust whatever they want people to think, either pro religion or anti. People have picked it apart over the centuries and using selective words and parts, made it fit their agenda. Perhaps that is where from the mouth of babes come from.


I don't mean to be negative but I think we will be surprised just how many will fall and who falls. While our perspectives may differ widely at CC, it gives me hope and knowledge. Then I see and listen to the public and the hope just goes poof and I think to myself, who's fault is it if people want to remain in ignorance? It takes just a small amount of effort to go to a group like CC and learn.
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04-20-2009, 09:05 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-20-2009, 09:12 AM by DHammer.)
#52
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:"Therefore, whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them, because this summarizes the Law and the Prophets."

“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.�


"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect"

yes these verses sumarise the bible, but lets just say im right for a second and no man can love like God, except he be given his love by meeting Jesus face to face, everything what Jesus said is impossible for any human being to do , we just cant , not cause we dont want to , cause the heart is desperately wicked and the carnal mind is at emnity with God.

so then does it not come down to salvation ? how else are we to do to others like we want them to do to us ?

really now , is there a person on earth who would be able to do that ?''bless those who curse you''.. i dont think so, no matter how hard they would try, not cause they dont want to, its just not in their nature, we are evil deep down ..

satan doesnt sit in front of God day and night (i forgot the verse but its in the bible) and acuse the human race for nothing. he is probably saying how evil and wicked we are, and that satan has little do to with it, we are doing it with our own hands, cause its in our nature, its just how it is.

i dont see satan acusing us in front of God if we were to be sons of God and able to do only good works, and the sins we comit would happen because of satan, really now it would make no sense for him to blatanly lie in front of God, obviously he knows all and satan understands this ...
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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04-20-2009, 04:20 PM,
#53
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Hi Dhammer,

Dhammer Wrote:lets just say im right for a second and no man can love like God, except he be given his love by meeting Jesus face to face, everything what Jesus said is impossible for any human being to do , we just cant , not cause we dont want to , cause the heart is desperately wicked and the carnal mind is at emnity with God.

Should we at least try to "love as god " or do as jesus said,
or do you think we may as well not try at all since "we just can't / our heart is deceiptfull and wicked" ?
If Someone tells you you can not do something, no matter how hard you try or want to,...
will you still try with all your might if you find it righteous , or give up beforehand ?

Lets say that , hypothetically, someone would pull it off, ..
someone manages to ~counter curses and hatred towards him with love and empathy~...
would that mean the person has met / will anytime soon meet Jesus "face to face" ?

Dhammer Wrote:really now , is there a person on earth who would be able to do that ?''bless those who curse you''..

Yes, i think there are ,.. allthough i'll readily admit they are not in the majority,
and perhaps some of them still "bless those who curse them" out of an ego-driven motivation.
In this sense ; If someone approaches me with enmity, and i choose to not reflect the attitude,
but counter it, by being friendly and uncompromisingly loving to someone, ... i may still be doing that to please ME , primarilly,
for reflecting the person's hatred or enmity towards me effects Me , as much is it effects them , if not more.

Dhammer Wrote:i dont think so, no matter how hard they would try, not cause they dont want to, its just not in their nature, we are evil deep down ..

Well, it's ok that that's what you think,
but i strongly disagree, as i've actually been / seen people "bless those that curse them", more than once,
rather often actually, different people in different situations... do what you say can not be done.
You say it is +- practically impossible , because it is not in our nature,
(so that would mean it would always be ; an eye for an eye )
but i find it is in our nature, for otherwise i would not witness or experience it.

The point which i find interesting, is whether they (people who do) do so
(counter hatred with love, or a curse with a blessing)
out of Love for the other person, or if they do so because they sense it is best for themselves...
(or perhaps because they believe God wants it like that).

namaste'



If Thine I that I spy with my own little I Doeth Offend thee ; Pluck It out.

Reply
04-20-2009, 06:04 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-20-2009, 06:07 PM by DHammer.)
#54
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
its like a mixed up priority list , trying to love like Jesus is a waste of time, because we dont have the ''it'' to do it, 1-st you get the love, then you love (what humans have is a different love, a selfish love)

Lets say that , hypothetically, someone would pull it off, ..

how would that be possible if this is how we are born ? without the love and the only giver of love is Jesus which gives it to His bride by ''souping with him'' i.e. meeting face to face ? do you see what i mean by this ?




when i say we are evil deep down i mean in spirit.

just take a look at a bunch of chids, who supposedly are good, even in them, at this young age you can see their evil nature.
Like a kid screaming he wants this or that toy, isnt that being selfish ? as we grow up we learn (not everyone does) to mask these urges, but they are still there..
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Reply
04-20-2009, 08:10 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-20-2009, 08:27 PM by standvast.)
#55
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Dhammer Wrote:its like a mixed up priority list , trying to love like Jesus is a waste of time,

Did Jesus teach you this defeatist attitude ?

Quote:Matthew 5.44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

IF Jesus said this , and meant it,.. why would you assume it is impossible for (all) humans ?

Dhammer Wrote:we dont have the ''it'' to do it, 1-st you get the love, then you love (what humans have is a different love, a selfish love)

Lets pretend i agree that humans can not love agape ""as Jesus loved"",
and that humans only have a lower form or different more kind of "selfish love"...

Did Jesus ever instruct anyone to meet up with him face to face,
so they could love unconditionally, in a spiritual manner , like him ?
or did Jesus simply say that people should counter curses with blessings and to love ones enemies ?

Dhammer Wrote:how would that be possible if this is how we are born ? without the love and the only giver of love is Jesus which gives it to His bride by ''souping with him'' i.e. meeting face to face ? do you see what i mean by this ?

no , i don't quite see...
IMHO,
If this is how we were born, then we (humans) do not Know the agape love which only Jesus can give,
so striving after it, .. trying hard to get face to face with him so we can obtain his salvation and spiritual love,
seems way more selfish to me than to give the love we already have ,
our limited human love, forgiveness, mercy, empathy, to our percieved enemies and those that persecute us.

Besides, who would want to call everyone "incapable of true love", "wicked" , while striving after an unknown better form of love ?
even call little children in their humanly loving and innocent orientation "Evil in nature"
then go on hoping once to pretend to be Jesus his bride and attempt to "soupe" with him,... lol, not me.

Dhammer Wrote:Like a kid screaming he wants this or that toy, isnt that being selfish ? as we grow up we learn (not everyone does) to mask these urges, but they are still there..

Some of us go beyond masking, we actually undo some of the urges..:rolleyes:
but yes, you are correct about it being selfish, a young child has only just begun orientating / experiencing itself ,
relating everything to itself, and obviously, wanting stuff for itself, ..food, attention, stimuli, entertainment.
That does not make/prove their inner heart or spirit wicked ,.. :)
Did Jesus as a small child ever whine for more breastmilk for himself, ... who knows ?

Dhammer Wrote:when i say we are evil deep down i mean in spirit.

and i suppose you'ld base that on this ? ;

"<span style="color:#FF0000">The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

What do you think it means that Jesus will give us a new heart and a new spirit ?
That he returns in the flesh and performs an "open heart"- transplant ?

Quote:"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh"
(Ezekiel 36:26).

ever heard of the expression "to melt a heart of stone" ?
my take on it is ; We humans, need to change/purify our heart,
it isn't going to happen because of stubborn trust in an external force to do it for you.
And who said god was external anyways, or Jesus's agape love for that matter..
If he could keep it in the flesh , why can't we at least give it our best shot ?

Not that i specifically Like Saul of Tarsus, but hey, look at "what the Bible says " here ;

Quote:1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are
1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool,
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Cr 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
1Cr 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Cr 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's.

-----all emphasis ; mine of course.

Quote:"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh"
(Ezekiel 36:26).

"I will give you " IMHO means ; through Jesus., or the keeping of the teachings of Jesus,
( for God's will is known through his son) shall you recieve a new ( renewed ) heart / spirit.
I believe that believing in betterment can produce betterment, in heart and spirit,
but i think it is up to every human , whether listening face to face on the mount or reading Jesus's words now from a preferred Bible,
to do the work, "get closer to god" , and cultivate / make bloom our spirit and melt our hearts.
To say as you do , that any effort in our current state is all futile, that we should hope and have Faith in Jesus alone,
and that it will all be OK when he returns for more facetime , is just utterly unacceptable,.. that is a "born loser's" script.

namaste'
If Thine I that I spy with my own little I Doeth Offend thee ; Pluck It out.

Reply
04-20-2009, 11:01 PM,
#56
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
DHammer, I must agree with standvast on this, - people can and people do.

Some people are quite gentile and unselfish, tho they are the minority.
I'm not very good at it, I tend to get mad after being hurt and I like to get my way, but I try not to be like that - sometimes for myself, sometimes for other reasons, sometimes, often even, - for love/empathy/sympathy - be it love for them or love for God.

One must, or at least should, try, even if they fail, then try some more.

It's not about suppressing, it's about growing. It's about LOVE & seeing goodness in others - even in the unlikable.
There is one that can help a person to do this, if you ask them to.



I would say that just loving and blessing those that love you is even hard at times, let alone those that curse you.
Yes, this makes us imperfect, but not necessarily wicked or evil, - I fail to see what good telling people how wicked/bad/evil they are will do.
Seems to me that job is best left to the judge.

Besides most all of us have a conscience and are well aware of our faults, even those that don't own up to them.


I liked your answer, - salvation, I wasn't criticizing it, merely building on it

The good news is supposed to be just that - good news, news of the kingdom and the new earth, - not the dreadful news, news of "your wicked, you were born wicked, you suck no matter how hard you try, - doom on you."
This will not help anyone IMO, - plus if they don't believe - it surely won't get them to start.
(if someone told you that you are bad, were born bad, I'm sorry - they shouldn't of said it, they were wrong, put it out of you mind and be reborn ! )




I understand why people don't believe the book, after all - it's quite unbelievable and some of it is down right shocking and brutal.
They look around and say - boy this world has a lot faults, there are a lot of people in physical, mental & emotional pain, people are starving, people are being killed, ect...
If there is a god, why doesn't this god do something ?

Not believing is all very logical, it's the believing part that doesn't make much sense.
I just don't understand how telling folks that they're bad will make it anymore sensible or logical.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
04-21-2009, 04:32 AM,
#57
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Dhammer, you are correct. There is a difference between God's love and human love. IMHO, there is no way we can achieve that level in this world with these bodies. That however doesn't mean that we are not suppose to try and the difference we fall short will be made one day. Slipping and falling doesn't matter unless you just lay there and give up. I really think that we judge each other more harshly than God judges us, and that may just not be a bad thing. Therein comes the word Grace and through Grace is Salvation.

We are born with a perfect love inside our hearts and our spirits, even in the worse conditions with the worse of peoples, into a wicked world we are pure. Evil wears one's soul down and while we may pick up bad or wicked ways, we have freewill to change them. The power inside of each of us to fight off the evil and should that not be enough, all we have to do is ask and believe. The Devil is only as strong as you allow him to be, no stronger. Wicked is learned. They look at life simple and should a baby cry to suck more, it is not the selfishness, but rather the physical need. It's only later through observation that selfishness comes in. Babies have a total and unconditional love, just as God does.

 Jesus even got ticked at the money changers in the temple. I would suspect that He expects us to hold our ground. The Bible even speaks of hot or cold, (straddling the fence), is not a good thing to do. That is why I think He expects us to stand up to evil, no matter it be exterior or interior. Somewhere it even speaks of a time for all things. The only people Jesus refused to heal were the ones who had given up, accepted that things could be no better. The ones who had decided that hope was futile and accepted their situation. Those that expected no better of themselves or others. All who would accept His help received it. There is not a human born that does not have good in them, it may be hidden, but it's there.

For me the Bible Old Testament is a history course with some future revealed. Rather than to show just the good or the bad, it shows the whole story. The most beautiful and the most ugly. Isn't that pretty much real life? The New Testament is the one of Love, Salvation and Grace. While God more than likely knows that what He asks is all but impossible for us to do, He does expect we try. An old woman once said that if we reach for the stars we will never touch them, but we won't end up with a handful of dirt.

As for Satan setting in front of God, I seriously doubt it. No matter what Satan would say remember this, God knows better. As for what Satan says about the Bible and the past, who's knows better than one who was there when He created it all? Knowing the History and the Bible, who better to twist the Truth? Satan has no more power over us than you or God allows, so... Satan only suggests.

I may be wrong on this so far, but that is just what I think. What I know however is that through Grace, when the last breathe comes, the sting of death is taken for you. The worries are long gone, the loneliness, the fear, the cold, the cares of this world vanish... even those you felt, but just couldn't put your finger on what is missing. The warmth, acceptance, love, kindness that one experiences. The absence of any questions you pondered. It is just great to be there and you are humbled that you are. It is not through deeds, actions, words that you are received, but through Grace. I assure you that it is worth all the Hell on earth you could ever face.
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04-22-2009, 02:41 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-22-2009, 03:20 PM by DHammer.)
#58
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer

Did Jesus ever instruct anyone to meet up with him face to face,


yes, Jesus' reply to the ''many'' who said they believed, cast out demons in his name : ''depart from me, i never knew you''. Obviously Jesus knew them very well since he knows all but he never came to them to show what love is and to give it to them. do a word study and youll see the word knowing refers to experientally knowing them.

Saved christians are called out by name, literally, just like Jesus said (''i will call my sheep by their name'', ''they know me and i know them'') in a spiritual meeting, and then given love.


trying hard to get face to face with him so we can obtain his salvation and spiritual love,
seems way more selfish to me than to give the love we already have


it makes little difference if it seems selfish or not, its what God said we should do if we dont want to go to hell, do you understand this ? as far as God is concerned we are satan's children, we are born in the spiritual world of satan, and spiritually we belong to satan. i dont think he exagerates when he says we must be reborn in his kingdom instead if we want to see heaven.

To say as you do , that any effort in our current state is all futile, that we should hope and have Faith in Jesus alone,
and that it will all be OK when he returns for more facetime , is just utterly unacceptable,.. that is a "born loser's" script.


yes, it might be, but please understand that a christian is a sojourner in this world, whether he thinks hes born a loser or not, he lives for the world to come. this life is just the threshold.

my take on it is ; We humans, need to change/purify our heart,

how can we change/purify the heart if Jesus plainly says he is the one that will put a new heart within us, not a ''purified'' , redone reworked fixed heart ? do you understand that we are not the ones who do this ? it is Jesus who gives us the heart, we have nothing to do with it except comply to his words, study the word and leave the world.

i believe the 1Cr 3:11 talks to the christians who are saved

jack, ofcourse you agree with standvast , we cannot posibly agree, we believe in totally different ideas :D if anyone would agree with me it would shock me really. i know this sounds arogant but this is how rare born again christians are. if you meet 3 in your whole lifetime consider yourself lucky. i havent even HEARD of one in my whole country here, ever, and frankly i dont think i ever will.


I'm not very good at it, I tend to get mad after being hurt and I like to get my way, but I try not to be like that


compare it to Jesus, would He have to struggle with such things ? would he get mad if he was hurt ? remember he is the one who had a different type of love from birth, my guess is he didnt have to deal with what we deal, and this is why he was so different from us, and no one understood him, he was of another spirit, his belongs to God, ours to satan.

do you see what i mean ? the mere fact that we have to struggle with these inner thoughts is to me a testament that something is teribly wrong with the human race because it confirms the bible and the wicked heart verse.
what other explanation do you and standvast have, from a biblical p.o.v. , for these urges ? satan ?

hilly : We are born with a perfect love inside our hearts and our spirits, even in the worse conditions with the worse of peoples, into a wicked world we are pure.

this is exactly what i want to know from you guys, if we are not born wicked how are we born then ? perfect ? semi wicked( does that even make sense ?)

if we are born perfect, how do we explain what children do ? i remember having a friend and this little girl came to him, sat on his lap, kissed him, and got the chocolate he had in his hand. i mean that is just ... or children torturing animals, and i mean at really young ages, and many other examples.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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04-22-2009, 03:56 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-22-2009, 04:29 PM by standvast.)
#59
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Dhammer Wrote:yes, Jesus' reply to the ''many'' who said they believed, cast out demons in his name : ''depart from me, i never knew you''. Obviously Jesus knew them very well since he knows all but he never came to them to show what love is and to give it to them. do a word study and youll see the word knowing refers to experientally knowing them.

No, i don't think you are correct on that,..
"To know" in biblical sense comes from the Hebrew ;
yada (yod daleth ayin).

Which can be meant in many more ways than ; to "stand face-to-face with", or "know experientally "
I think it is because you are a literalist in your interpretations that you choose to take it to mean "know by contact" in the most litteral sense.
In other (biblical) instances it means "to have intercourse with" , "to instruct", "to be aware of", "to acknowledge".

Quoting Strong's concordance ;

3045
yada`
yaw-dah'
Quote:a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) (as follow):--acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-)awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be (ig-)norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have (knowledge), (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have (understanding), X will be, wist, wit, wot

So in that sense, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:22-23).
may as well mean ;
"You have distanciated / cut off yourself from me (my teachings) , you have never followed the instructions,
your acts have not been in keeping of the Law."
there is nothing in there that goes to show Jesus wanted to meet everyone in person and "give them the Love of God".

Dhammer Wrote:Saved christians are called out by name, literally, just like Jesus said (''i will call my sheep by their name'',

LOL , your literalism is killing me,..
Nothing here implies Jesus "calling people by their names"
What is meant, IMHO , is that Jesus (and thus God -) will recognize those keeping his Law / teachings,
and see through those that call themselves "christian" but act contrary to what this truly implies.
Jesus will (upon "judgement" ) know his flock, and see everyone (Christian or Otherwise) for what they are ; righteous or wicked.

"My sheep will hear my voice"
does not mean that those who are deaf , or out of earshot, will never be saved, you silly cat.
It means those who heed the message and live by it are the flock, whether they heard Jesus speak , or NOT.

Dhammer Wrote:it makes little difference if it seems selfish or not, its what God said we should do if we dont want to go to hell, do you understand this ?

I understand that that is what you've made it out to be, but i disagree about the personal interpretation you state as fact..
Jesus never says we should not love untill we receive a better love, in fact , he tells us to love our enemies,..
IMHO he does so (instruct the imperfect humans) so we can practice ,
so we can grow / blossom into this ("Jesus's) agape love by the keeping of the teachings.

Dhammer Wrote:as far as God is concerned we are satan's children, we are born in the spiritual world of satan, and spiritually we belong to satan. i dont think he exagerates when he says we must be reborn in his kingdom instead if we want to see heaven.

Pretend i agree,..
what do you think this "rebirth" would entail ?
My take on it is ; By living by the teachings and focussing on what is Just ("in God's eyes" ) (the Law) we are transformed,
our heart and spirit become prepared ("altered", "changed" "made anew" _) and we become "reborn" as spiritual beings, within Jesus's "kingdom".

So in conclusion, I don't think he (God) exagerated either, i think YOU do,
You exagerate the gravity of the symbolic terms, and paint a dreadful vision for yourself and others.

Dhammer Wrote:yes, it might be, but please understand that a christian is a sojourner in this world, whether he thinks hes born a loser or not, he lives for the world to come. this life is just the threshold.

all humans are sojourners in this world, a human life is not for ever,
whether we hope / believe we will move on to a paradise heaven in the skies to be with God lateron or not.
Living for a (hypothetical) "world to come" at the expense of ones love for humans in the "present world" is assinine to me...
If you can not better your current situation, love, cherish, uphold the Law in the present,...
how could you possibly expect a perfect "next world " ,..without actively working towards it ?

Quote:how can we change/purify the heart if Jesus plainly says he is the one that will put a new heart within us, not a ''purified'' , redone reworked fixed heart ?

Dude, if only ancient symbolic writings were as "plain " as you think they are...:rolleyes:
Would following the teachings of Jesus not "provide one with a new* heart " ?
(*symbolically ; as it is every bit different from ones "old heart" )
My take on it is ; you (humans) will not ever recieve a "fresh out of the box / untainted /perfect loving"- heart.
Just because the phrase says "a new heart " does not in any way mean it can not be the same heart as ever,
but purified, and thus ; "wholly new" in comparisson with the "old" heart.

Dhammer Wrote:do you understand that we are not the ones who do this ? it is Jesus who gives us the heart, we have nothing to do with it except comply to his words, study the word and leave the world.

IMHO ;
It is ONLY Jesus who "does this", because "Jesus" , is a symbol for perfect love and sacrifice at the behest of all humans
"Jesus" is representative of the Law , the teachings, the righteousness that purifies the heart.
It is up to Humans to live by the teachings,.. to put in the effort, not to sit by idling,
and judging the entire human family as spiritually flawed , 'till Christ returns.

funny that, you only tell me how i should read into things, not reflecting much on my offered alternative interpretations...
i'll have to assume you a just a slight close-hearted. (or close-minded)
but on the other hand, you will gladly link "being saved' to "having ones DNA changed" ... :huh:

Dhammer Wrote:the mere fact that we have to struggle with these inner thoughts is to me a testament that something is teribly wrong with the human race because it confirms the bible and the wicked heart verse.

Struggle is good,
it seems to me you shun effort,
Just because something is hard and causes inner turmoil (unconditional love) does not mean there is something wrong with humanity,...
you expect perfect love, or salvation and "a new heart" to come without any struggle, effort, sacrifice ?
through faith alone ?
....that's just rich.

namaste'
If Thine I that I spy with my own little I Doeth Offend thee ; Pluck It out.

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04-22-2009, 04:03 PM,
#60
The Fallen Angel - A true story about Lucifer
Quote:hilly : We are born with a perfect love inside our hearts and our spirits, even in the worse conditions with the worse of peoples, into a wicked world we are pure.

this is exactly what i want to know from you guys, if we are not born wicked how are we born then ? perfect ? semi wicked( does that even make sense ?)

if we are born perfect, how do we explain what children do ? i remember having a friend and this little girl came to him, sat on his lap, kissed him, and got the chocolate he had in his hand. i mean that is just ... or children torturing animals, and i mean at really young ages, and many other examples.

You are confusing birth with youth. I know we refer to youth as babies, but that is just how were verbally refer to small ones. We are born into a wicked world and sometimes to wicked people, that doesn't make the baby wicked at birth, just out numbered in the physical sense. After birth is when we learn to be wicked or not. Yes, there are many examples of children being cruel but equally so there are many of children being good.

IMHO, we can not achieve perfection here on earth... but we should try and get as close as possible. That doesn't mean that God expects we are the same from each person or that all people should be alike, He could have made us that way if He so desired to, but He didn't. Perhaps the secret lies in a verse that refers to cleansing oneself rather than judging another. We each (at least for myself) have enough stuff to work on inside to correct.

Fear is one of the Devil's best games, should we work on fear he would be without one of his most powerful weapons. We need to do away with fear of failure, fear of doing the right thing, fear of the wrong reasons. Fear that if we do right, others will not do right. If you love and love truly, does it matter what your motives are? Fear makes us question those motives and by questioning them we lose the advantage of love.
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