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Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
03-03-2009, 03:53 AM,
#1
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?


There is serious doubt whether carbon dioxide emissions are a major driver for global warming or, as it has recently come to be called, 'climate change'. Water vapor is a more potent greenhouse gas and the sun's influence on our climate is orders of magnitude stronger than any amount of carbon dioxide we could ever produce. But carbon dioxide may have a secondary effect that has been hardly mentioned in the past. Every time a carbon dioxide molecule is produced by burning carbon-based fuels including oil and gas, two oxygen atoms get locked up together with one of carbon. The oxygen that drives the burning process comes from the atmosphere.

Until recently, I had been under the impression that oxygen levels in the atmosphere are quite stable around 21 per cent, and have been so for a long time. However in a recent discussion about burning coal as fuel, some interesting information emerged that tends to disprove the concept of a stable oxygen level.

Historical trends, as explained in Atmospheric Oxygen, Giant Paleozoic Insects and the Evolution of Aerial Locomotor Performance by R. Dudley, JExB, show a high of about 35% just before the beginning of the Permian, with a rapid decline to a low of about 13-14% near the beginning of the Triassic, then a small spike at about 17% in mid Triassic, another drop to about 14-15% early in the Jurassic, a sudden climb to about 21% by mid-Jurassic, then a gentle climb to about 26% early in the Tertiary, and a rather constant, steady decline to the present "20.9%."

But even now, we are not necessarily assured of a more-than-20-per cent oxygen level in the air at all times.


coal_fired_power_plant.jpg

Coal fired power plant - Image credit: Sun-volt.com


In that discussion, Adrian said: "There is really no such thing as "clean" coal. Even if you take all of the non-carbon contents out, the resultant burning still produces enormous amounts of carbon dioxide. We may be getting to the stage where we will have to be concerned about the amount of oxygen we have left in the atmosphere to breathe... I read that a research paper comparing the health of people living at low compared to high altitudes showed that it was the lack of oxygen that was harmful for certain ailments.

Oxygen used to be about 20% of the atmosphere but today in some places, it is as low as 16%. Carbon dioxide is actually a fairly heavy gas (molecular weight 44 as compared to oxygen 32 and nitrogen 28) so that during times of little wind, it would have a tendency to settle in pockets. That is one reason cave exploration can be so hazardous.

People living in large cities in India have such a high incidence of lung disease that older diesel motors have been banned. I have not read any carbon dioxide studies but reducing the amount of oxygen available, certainly places a strain on the heart, especially for old people with weak hearts and those with any type of lung problems.

Carbon dioxide sequestering seems to be a stupid idea because the process also sequesters oxygen in the process. Someone needs to present calculations showing how the burning of coal, oil and natural gas is affecting our oxygen supply. The question really boils down to "how much oxygen would be left in the atmosphere if all fossil fuels were consumed?" Yes, people will say that trees and algae will take care of the oxygen production but the real concern is what level of oxygen is required to maintain a good healthy atmosphere for humans as well as for other living organisms."


So it appears the oxygen content of air is not uniform all over the planet, some places seem to be much worse than others. The cause: use of carbon-based fuels, together with our disregard for the contribution of forests to keeping the air breathable.

- - -


Robert supplied a link to a website about depleting oxygen levels.

http://www.trufax.org/general/oxygen.html

He added: Another 2% down and we suffocate...

CO2 can be sequestered in the coal plant. I question whether it captures oxygen too. It would be nice if some brainiac could figure a profitable way to split CO2 into C + O2.



Since carbon dioxide is one carbon atom and two of oxygen, sequestering CO2 to "put it into storage", as proposed by some who would like to see us continue using carbon based fuels will indeed sequester the oxygen together with the carbon. The more CO2 we produce, the more of the free oxygen in the atmosphere we deplete.

Photosynthesis of green plants reverses the trend, but as we are cutting down forests to make room for grazing animals or to grow crops of industrial raw material or biofuels, we have less and less help from the plants. There is even a possible technologal fix that could reverse the trend, but it's not been developed into a usable technology. Sandia Laboratory's Nathan Siegel is one of the scientists working on a project to turn carbon dioxide into carbon monoxide, releasing one of CO2's bound oxygen atoms by harnessing solar energy. (Turning Carbon Dioxide into Fuel)


Sandia_solar_coll.jpg

Giant solar collector at Sandia National Laboratories to power a novel reactor capable of producing carbon monoxide from carbon dioxide - Image: Randy Montoya at ABCNews.


"Carbon dioxide is a combustion product, so what we're doing is reversing combustion," Siegel says. The carbon monoxide can then readily be employed to produce a range of different fuels, including hydrogen, methanol, and gasoline, using conventional technologies.

Returning to the discussion that started this, Adrian added another thought: "I was certain that the increased burning of carbon fuels with the accompanying destruction of forest has had an adverse impact on the oxygen in our atmosphere and the above web site (http://www.trufax.org/general/oxygen.html) confirms my thinking in a most frightening manner. I do not think most people realize the dilemma which seems to boil down to the choice between breathable air or continued and increased burning of fuels. Right now we are stuck with the problem of Global Warming and no one seems to realize that our oxygen supply is becoming much more at risk as time goes by. I know that game fish cannot exist in lakes that have been depleted of oxygen because of excess algae growth stimulated with the dumping of phosphates and similar chemicals but now we are entering a like situation with our own atmosphere.

I think the answer is awareness of the problem and the realization that we must turn to other sources of energy. I also believe that the problem of oxygen depletion needs to be brought to the attention of all in order to solve this seemingly innocuous but in truth, serious problem.

And another participant brings his own views on oxygen levels. Paul weighs in saying:

"This issue of oxygen depletion is one which is more of a local phenomenon. In Alabama where I live the O2 levels fluctuate between about 22% and about 19% on a varied daily and monthly cycle with the photosynthesis of the forest here. In Mexico City this level has dropped to about 17% max and minimum 14% with thousands who die each year from the problem and this has been some years now. Mexico City has lost between 5000 and 15000 persons a year this way for a decade or more. They just die quietly in the night and are scooped up in a day or two and disposed of without comment.

In Europe it of course varies with location but the big cities of Europe typically never see above 19%. Many Asian cities frequently see as low as 15% or 14%. (China/India) Oxygen bars were invented because of this in Asia.

The essential problem with CO2 is that the solution [we need] is Photosynthesis. It works and it doesn't soak up energy... It collects it.

This really is the issue with more fuel. You can forget Global Warming. It is dead. The Sun just put that to rest. Nothing Mankind can do if the current trend continues will avoid an ICE Age shortly. It may be a minimal one but we are getting colder."

Although the advocates of global warming continue to say that temperature is increasing, in the last ten years that has not been the case. We also have an extreme low of solar activity with little or no sun spots showing this year.

What we need is to get global warming/climate change out of the political arena. Too many interests are bad for scientific inquiry and debate.

And for sure we should look at the possibility that our production of CO2, even though it may not bring about global warming, could be the driving force for a different and possibly much worse problem: death by insufficient oxygen, in other words, slow suffocation.

http://blog.hasslberger.com/2008/10/is_oxy...more_worry.html
03-03-2009, 08:34 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-03-2009, 08:36 PM by JazzRoc.)
#2
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
It is true that oxygen levels are falling. But also true that we can adapt to lower levels.

We should of course adopt our primary planetary role: gardeners of the Earth. And if we did (stimulate and permaculturalize the forests and ocean phytoplankton) the oxygen levels would increase.

Once the level increases beyond 23%, forest fires would be perpetual... and we'd have to live with that. There would be loss of life through fire, instead of by cancer by oxygen-depletion.

There's no such thing as a free lunch...

And no, it is NOT more worrying than global warming. That's Russian Roulette, if the ocean clathrates rise, with SIX rounds in the revolver!
03-03-2009, 09:22 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-03-2009, 09:22 PM by ---.)
#3
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
point is, not that i'm against responsible living, the oceans may well be 'rising' anyway irrespective of AGW
03-16-2009, 12:47 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-16-2009, 12:50 PM by rsol.)
#4
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
these points are moot when you take the whole picture in of what we do to the earth and its systems of sustainability. trees are felled and burned in one corner of the world, the ocean gets more acidic by the day, the effluent rises to its predestined altitudes. water dries up where its needed, and washes in where its not. I couldnt give a shit about whats the main cause tbh.

Some people think that by cutting their CO2 footprint they will magically save the planet in one easy step. There is a profound change that humans made before the modern age. Every year is an acceleration. More cracks open in the ecosystem. im not sure about "depletion" though. If there are other gasses becoming more prominent in our air supply, surely this is merely going to take away from all other gasses as far as percentage. PPM is parts per million.

Getting wholly accurate figures when talking about a massive surface like the earth isnt exactly a simple walk in the park. Concentrations can be different in various areas. When we talk about 1%, thats and area the size of France. The accuracy of figures pale into insignificance when the conceptual understanding is fully realized. All a catastrophe needs is enough time and enough ignorance.

Just because we cant focus on a star, that's no excuse to deny its existence. Stretching a rubber band is usually harmless, its when it breaks....
03-20-2009, 01:14 AM,
#5
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:point is, not that i'm against responsible living, the oceans may well be 'rising' anyway irrespective of AGW
The sea level is rising very slowly (it's not easy to measure because the crustal plates are always moving up, down, and sideways).

I was talking about the ten thousand billion tons of methane stored under pressure in the oceans as "clathrates". A warm spell will 'pop' them up, and things will definitely change if that happens. It won't be possible to 'pop' them down again...
03-20-2009, 03:37 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-20-2009, 04:11 AM by ---.)
#6
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:
Quote:point is, not that i'm against responsible living, the oceans may well be 'rising' anyway irrespective of AGW
The sea level is rising very slowly (it's not easy to measure because the crustal plates are always moving up, down, and sideways).

I was talking about the ten thousand billion tons of methane stored under pressure in the oceans as "clathrates". A warm spell will 'pop' them up, and things will definitely change if that happens. It won't be possible to 'pop' them down again...

'pop' this way or that, we are still being lied to, in order to facilitate a societal mechanism entirely hinged on 'green guilt' ™

Perhaps, we, as a species would have an all together more cogent perspective and ability to repair a/the raped ecosystem, if gross fear of it's instability wasn't being consummately hijacked to totalitarian end by ridiculously rich industrialists who are, not only 'the' MAIN polluters but also main material producers of 'throwaway' goods into the commercial realm with 'scant' concern for sustainability - whilst seemingly more concerned with space programmes and private seed banks et al, anyhow!!

The IPCC is morally bankrupt - accept that ffs - blame the people! especially the poor people - 'god forbid' they should be allowed to produce their own industrialised infrastructure - the point is, the whole game is run at the behest of the most powerful combines and by patent laws which are described to preclude free development and only to profit the same 'higher path' walkers.

but you know this, surely?
03-25-2009, 08:50 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-25-2009, 11:03 PM by JazzRoc.)
#7
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:'pop' this way or that, we are still being lied to, in order to facilitate a societal mechanism entirely hinged on 'green guilt' ™
Perhaps, we, as a species would have an all together more cogent perspective and ability to repair a/the raped ecosystem, if gross fear of it's instability wasn't being consummately hijacked to totalitarian end by ridiculously rich industrialists who are, not only 'the' MAIN polluters but also main material producers of 'throwaway' goods into the commercial realm with 'scant' concern for sustainability - whilst seemingly more concerned with space programmes and private seed banks et al, anyhow!!
The IPCC is morally bankrupt - accept that ffs - blame the people! especially the poor people - 'god forbid' they should be allowed to produce their own industrialised infrastructure - the point is, the whole game is run at the behest of the most powerful combines and by patent laws which are described to preclude free development and only to profit the same 'higher path' walkers.
but you know this, surely?
Surely I do. Humanity has lied and cheated from before the stone age, without a doubt. Why, d'you think, did Cro-Magnons "disappear"? A rival, dumber. ape - a sucker who never got an even break...

The thing is, the Earth is really warming, crooks and liars notwithstanding...

Climate Change - The Science...Climate Change - Objections...Warming or Cooling?

And for a long-term understanding...The Ice Age
03-25-2009, 11:38 PM,
#8
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:Surely I do. Humanity has lied and cheated from before the stone age, without a doubt... The thing is, the Earth is really warming, crooks and liars notwithstanding...

Uhhhmmmm so what the fuck makes you think you've not been lied to?
Unless you've been taking the temperature a few times a day for the past
couple hundred years, all you know is what you've been told by others, perhaps
lies.

This is ConCen, we all admit we've been tricked. What makes you so dead sure you're
right about this?
03-26-2009, 01:09 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-26-2009, 01:16 AM by JazzRoc.)
#9
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:This is ConCen, we all admit we've been tricked. What makes you so dead sure you're right about this?
It is called the body of evidence. When scientists are searching for material truth they have no idea where it lies. When they meet together (which they frequently do) they confer with each other and hammer away at the understanding of the root causes behind the evidence they've uncovered. This works across language barriers and ideological differences. The PTB haven't the faintest idea about what they are talking about, generally, because before such get-togethers the scientists don't know either.

If you understand the body of the evidence concept, and have watched the four videos, and also understand scientific methodology, then you must be a terminally cynical person to:msnslap:me ....(I love this emoticon!)

The "body of evidence" is the way I would characterize my understanding (it's more limited because I dropped Biology at age 15) of Evolution, as well.
03-26-2009, 01:47 AM,
#10
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:If you understand the body of the evidence concept

Like, for example, jet fuel and WTC? Gimme a break.
03-26-2009, 01:56 PM,
#11
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
well the evidence on global warming isnt new to the scientific community. Up until now, its been one of the most ignored. It has only really gained weight in the scientific community over the past 15 years or so. As far as "sustainably" is concerned, that has been a running theme in all kinds of cultures. Ancient peoples understood the idea of finite resources ect.

The reality isnt really the issue. Its baby and bath water we are looking at. Just because some scumbags have come along to muddy it all up and get a few dollars out of it, suddenly everyone doesn't trust the science. Before, when the government was in full denial, many people in the conspiracy world would of gone the other way. I worry about how our agendas can interfere with what we can trust as sound.

DUPONT!!!! follow the trail. they have opened whole universities dedicated to making dangerous things appear safe. you will find their little claws in almost all the denial propaganda.
03-26-2009, 02:21 PM,
#12
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:well the evidence on global warming isnt new to the scientific community. Up until now, its been one of the most ignored. It has only really gained weight in the scientific community over the past 15 years or so. As far as "sustainably" is concerned, that has been a running theme in all kinds of cultures. Ancient peoples understood the idea of finite resources ect.

The reality isnt really the issue. Its baby and bath water we are looking at. Just because some scumbags have come along to muddy it all up and get a few dollars out of it, suddenly everyone doesn't trust the science. Before, when the government was in full denial, many people in the conspiracy world would of gone the other way. I worry about how our agendas can interfere with what we can trust as sound.

DUPONT!!!! follow the trail. they have opened whole universities dedicated to making dangerous things appear safe. you will find their little claws in almost all the denial propaganda.

It was around 15 years ago that the scientific community was mapping cooling trends and forecasting a fast approaching Ice age..
03-26-2009, 09:59 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-26-2009, 10:00 PM by JazzRoc.)
#13
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:The reality isnt really the issue. Its baby and bath water we are looking at. Just because some scumbags have come along to muddy it all up and get a few dollars out of it, suddenly everyone doesn't trust the science. Before, when the government was in full denial, many people in the conspiracy world would of gone the other way. I worry about how our agendas can interfere with what we can trust as sound.
DUPONT!!!! follow the trail. they have opened whole universities dedicated to making dangerous things appear safe. you will find their little claws in almost all the denial propaganda.
Well, what are we going to do? Fuck-all, it seems to me. Stop consuming carbon? Move to a warmer latitude?

As an observation, talking as someone who has "walked in the outer corridors of power" I can tell you guys that the general feeling about what happens is no different from yours - a helplessness in the face of things outside one's control.

I have a really deep feeling that the same thing exists even where the buck stops...
03-26-2009, 10:19 PM,
#14
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Quote:
Quote:If you understand the body of the evidence concept
Like, for example, jet fuel and WTC? Gimme a break.
Yes, that. Exactly.

Steel softens at quite low temperatures. It's the reason why jet engines were NOT designed in the twenties. The argument went "those turbine blades are going to soften, creep, and strike the casing within minutes. Don't be an idiot."

Softening allows movement, which allows buckling. Buckling is a catastrophic process. Except in a fully redundant structure. Neither the towers nor WTC7 were redundant. End of story.

You should consider what a non-redundant structure entails. I have flown one - a hang glider. One failure - and curtains.

Rethink.
03-26-2009, 11:40 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-26-2009, 11:47 PM by ---.)
#15
Is Oxygen depletion more worrying than global warming?
Jason Bermas had a call about the very same thing just the other day - as I recall, he cited the fact that on what remained of the floors where the heat is supposed to have been highest - thus softening the steel - firefighters were not only present but reported isolated fires that could be "knocked out with handlines"...and then there is the case of the molten steel recorded coming of the side of the building - quite a range of temperatures - you put the collapse down to the effects of kerosine, do you?

In terms of structural issues - squibs aside -have you watched Loosechange final cut, JR?


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