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ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
01-06-2012, 01:13 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-06-2012, 02:19 PM by Loke.)
#1
ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
Confused Loke-rant:

yeti Wrote:We have a significant shortfall in funds.

Donor-list: $10,414 in total (some not even listed!)
yeti joined: 07-19-2008 (approx. 40 months ago...)

Server-cost: $260+/month (10,414 / 40)

Hmmm... It really shouldn't cost that much to run this site!



VPS rooted: 1Gbit, 900Gb, 4Gb, 2xCPU, 15Tb +

$62/month i.e. here!

Could $7934 have been saved in those 40 months?

- Equal to 10+ years of future hosting!



yeti Wrote:While I'm very grateful for the generosity of the few who donated to my workstation upgrade, as a result the monthly donations have dropped off to a trickle.

May I suggest a cheaper hosting-setup... - And, perhaps open books?

NB: As DNS-hosting are free, and yeti does have a mainly donated server ("workstation"), then the cost should be "only" for his own xDSL subscription and perhaps a bit overhead for electricity and the yearly domain-fee. We should be talking all hardware/connection-quality and -price here - and as such, then VPS-servers are IMHO much preferable to "home-servers"! - Not only due to the obvious and very much lower cost on both hardware and internet-connection (no more hardware or utility-bills). - Or due to the very faster response-time (it is mostly a tracker). - But, also to the significantly higher connection-speed, more up-time; included with professional backup & maintenance. As most if not everyone does; then I do of cause also appreciate yetis work, but it could continue all uninterrupted. - The (mostly?) donated "workstation" could still be used as yeti's personal "mirror" and for his further "development" ++. But, perhaps yeti could begin pay for his own internet-connection (as we all do), and as such he should be able to lower ConCen expenses to <$65/month (hosting + domain-fee)?

yeti Wrote:If we can't raise enough to pay for ConCen's next bill, the site will fold.

My "rant" are directed to all of us (the owners), and not only yeti or the staff. And, it is all to be seen in the light of me only trying to save and secure ConCen by giving some IMHO constructive suggestions... - All, please feel free to comment and/or suggest!
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01-06-2012, 04:29 PM,
#2
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?

Yesterday there was a donation widget on the tracker page which indicated that only 21$ was needed to achieve the goal for next month's expenditures. This morning the widget has vanished and over 50$ has been donated since then but the financial crisis announcement is still there. This needs clarification especially on a conspiracy site. lol

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01-06-2012, 04:57 PM,
#3
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
(01-06-2012, 04:29 PM)zapoper Wrote: Yesterday there was a donation widget on the tracker page which indicated that only 21$ was needed to achieve the goal for next month's expenditures. This morning the widget has vanished and over 50$ has been donated since then but the financial crisis announcement is still there. This needs clarification especially on a conspiracy site. lol

Yeti created that donations progress bar the other day just for when the paypal account gets below a monthly payment.

As long as there is enough in the account to afford a monthly payment.... the widget will not appear.
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01-06-2012, 10:22 PM,
#4
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
(01-06-2012, 01:13 PM)Loke Wrote: Confused Loke-rant:

Indeed. Allow me to help you with that...

(01-06-2012, 01:13 PM)Loke Wrote:
yeti Wrote:We have a significant shortfall in funds.
Donor-list: $10,414 in total (some not even listed!)
yeti joined: 07-19-2008 (approx. 40 months ago...)
Server-cost: $260+/month (10,414 / 40)
Hmmm... It really shouldn't cost that much to run this site!

It doesn't. You're failing to take into account other expenses, including the cost of the workstation.

I charge $150/month which partially includes server depreciation (I own the server which I paid ~ $2500 for and built/installed/maintain myself) and a portion of my DSL bill. The hosting service charges $118.

(01-06-2012, 01:13 PM)Loke Wrote: VPS rooted: 1Gbit, 900Gb, 4Gb, 2xCPU, 15Tb +
$62/month i.e. here!
Could $7934 have been saved in those 40 months?
- Equal to 10+ years of future hosting!

You are basing your conclusion on faulty accounting and faulty assumptions. FYI a seedbox is not the same as a dedicated server, not by a long shot.

But hey, if you want to prove me wrong, of course there is nothing stopping you from starting your own site. The more the merrier AFAIC.

(01-06-2012, 01:13 PM)Loke Wrote:
yeti Wrote:While I'm very grateful for the generosity of the few who donated to my workstation upgrade, as a result the monthly donations have dropped off to a trickle.
May I suggest a cheaper hosting-setup... - And, perhaps open books?

How many sites are there with open books? How many sites are there with no advertising? How many sites are there which list donors and the amount they donated? How many sites are there that are open about their monthly expenses?

(01-06-2012, 01:13 PM)Loke Wrote: NB: As DNS-hosting are free, and yeti does have a mainly donated server ("workstation"), then the cost should be "only" for his own xDSL subscription and perhaps a bit overhead for electricity and the yearly domain-fee.

I have no idea where you got the idea that ConCen is hosted from my workstation. It is hosted on a dedicated server which I own (not ConCen) located at Canada's largest data center (151 Front St. West, Toronto). Yes, ConCen donors have paid for a very nice upgrade to my home computer (workstation), about which I have been very open. How many other site admins are as open about these matters?

(01-06-2012, 01:13 PM)Loke Wrote: We should be talking all hardware/connection-quality and -price here - and as such, then VPS-servers are IMHO much preferable to "home-servers"! - Not only due to the obvious and very much lower cost on both hardware and internet-connection (no more hardware or utility-bills). - Or due to the very faster response-time (it is mostly a tracker). - But, also to the significantly higher connection-speed, more up-time; included with professional backup & maintenance. As most if not everyone does; then I do of cause also appreciate yetis work, but it could continue all uninterrupted. - The (mostly?) donated "workstation" could still be used as yeti's personal "mirror" and for his further "development" ++. But, perhaps yeti could begin pay for his own internet-connection (as we all do), and as such he should be able to lower ConCen expenses to <$65/month (hosting + domain-fee)?

I can't believe you actually think ConCen is being hosted through my personal DSL line! My God man, have you any idea how ludicrous that concept is? This site is WAY bigger than that my friend. Do yourself a favor and have a look at our Alexa ranking, then tell me it's hosted through my DSL connection.

(01-06-2012, 01:13 PM)Loke Wrote:
yeti Wrote:If we can't raise enough to pay for ConCen's next bill, the site will fold.
My "rant" are directed to all of us (the owners), and not only yeti or the staff. And, it is all to be seen in the light of me only trying to save and secure ConCen by giving some IMHO constructive suggestions... - All, please feel free to comment and/or suggest!

Thank you for your suggestions. I think ConCen is doing quite well as is. You are encouraged to prove me wrong though by starting your own site (think of all the money you'll save!). The more the merrier!
[Image: randquote.png]
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01-06-2012, 10:30 PM,
#5
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
(01-06-2012, 04:29 PM)zapoper Wrote: Yesterday there was a donation widget on the tracker page which indicated that only 21$ was needed to achieve the goal for next month's expenditures. This morning the widget has vanished and over 50$ has been donated since then but the financial crisis announcement is still there. This needs clarification especially on a conspiracy site. lol

I'm sorry that you noticed that I failed to remove the notice in a timely manner. I actually did it for a nefarious reason - I was sleeping! OMG! OMG!! OMG!!!

Actually I was waiting until we got to 2 months in the account before announcing that the crisis is over. My bad. Feel free to despise me as much as everyone else does... Unsure

[Image: randquote.png]
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01-07-2012, 12:07 AM,
#6
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
Have you thought about selling some berkey water filters to raise some more cash?
Reply
01-07-2012, 01:01 AM,
#7
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
(01-07-2012, 12:07 AM)crystal Wrote: Have you thought about selling some berkey water filters to raise some more cash?

:lol:

I was thinking maybe penis enlargement and/or breast surgery. How abot sex toys? Or maybe sleazeball lawyer services...

[Image: randquote.png]
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01-07-2012, 01:07 AM,
#8
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
My thoughts are that we should continue raising funds until we have enough to pay for at least one years fixed costs which would be $1800 if it remains constant. I think we should also accumulate a $1000 contingency fund. It looks to me like we have over 42,000 members at present, if everyone of us made a $1 dollar donation just think of how much more we could accomplish. We could make this site into even more of a gem. We could have a thread set up where members could make suggestions as to how funds, (not allocated for fixed costs), should be spent. Members who have made a donation would vote on which suggestions to pursue and how much money to allocate towards it.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi


Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
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01-07-2012, 06:30 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-07-2012, 08:59 AM by Loke.)
#9
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
When we - the users - already do own this site, then why should I open my own site - thereby defeat the purpose of "central", and perhaps even also diluting the content and user-base of this site.

And hey, as computer-engineer I'm very aware of the difference between servers, and what I've been suggesting here.

Yeti, if ConCen is doing so well, then why do you post yet another "Financial Crisis" message? And, why again ask for urgent donations from the group you claim owns ConCen, yet(i) still denies to be accountable? And, why keep being infantile and tell anyone slightly criticizing to "take it or leave it"? And, why reply with arrogant and hostile comments on how imbecile we must be? And, why do you, quite irrelevant, defend your policies by stating how it might be on other sites. Why keep on claiming that we - the users - owns ConCen, yet argue from a yeti-owned site perspective??

You also have said, that these $10k+ donated have nothing to do with your workstation-upgrade - the two collections being totally separated... - But now you write that the workstation-cost is "included"?? It is my personal belief that your level of ConCen-development and admin-tasks doesn't merit a ConCen userpaid dedicated workstation, and as such; - I just didn't contribute to it!

The workstation-collection did however, by your own words, negatively affect the donations to run the site... ConCen needs donations to run, but should also budget and adjust to the funds available. My opinion is, that ConCen can be hosted much cheaper, and it should of cause be run with open books and accountability to the owners. - If that in fact were the case, then perhaps more of the 42.000 would contribute - and maybe the site wouldn't be in risk of "folding".

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01-07-2012, 09:59 AM,
#10
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: When we - the users - already do own this site, then why should I open my own site - thereby defeat the purpose of "central", and perhaps even also diluting the content and user-base of this site.

Since you don't run this site, and you believe you can do better, you would probably be happier on a site that you do run. Is this not true?

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: And hey, as computer-engineer I'm very aware of the difference between servers, and what I've been suggesting here.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression you thought ConCen was being run from my home through my DSL connection. Was I wrong?

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: Yeti, if ConCen is doing so well, then why do you post yet another "Financial Crisis" message?

Because ConCen needed funds to pay the next server bill.

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: And, why again ask for urgent donations from the group you claim owns ConCen, yet(i) still denies to be accountable?

Because ConCen needed funds to pay the next server bill. How exactly am I not accountable? Why have you not provided examples of other sites which are as accountable as this one, or as accountable as you want this one to be?

Let's put to rest this idea of yours that I claim the members own ConCen. The members do not own ConCen, they are ConCen.

Does a crowd own the crowd? ConCen is an informal collection of people who use a web site to share information. It's free to join and free to use, and has very few rules. The members do not own each other, they do not own the server, they do not own the site, they technically do not even own the domain name!

I registered the domain name, and by law someone has to own it, so I am the owner (and the person who would be sued and/or jailed if TPTB wanted to). The registration renewal fees (after the first few years) were paid for with member donations. If the members of ConCen decided they didn't want me running the site, then I would gladly hand the domain over to whoever they wanted to run it. I tried to resign but nobody would step up to replace me, so I decided to stay on.

If you want to take over running this site, make your case to the members.

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: And, why keep being infantile and tell anyone slightly criticizing to "take it or leave it"?

OK so I'm chronically infantile now? Have I asked you to leave?

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: And, why reply with arrogant and hostile comments on how imbecile we must be?

Please show me the post where I said ConCen members were imbeciles.

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: And, why do you, quite irrelevant, defend your policies by stating how it might be on other sites.

You claim that I am not being accountable to the members, and you want open books. I asked you to provide examples of sites that practice the policies you are requesting me to practice. You claim that this request is irrelevant. I disagree.

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: Why keep on claiming that we - the users - owns ConCen, yet argue from a yeti-owned site perspective??

ConCen is a community of people sharing information. They don't own the server, nor do they run the site. You're a computer engineer - do you give root access to your users? If you did, how long would your career last?

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: You also have said, that these $10k+ donated have nothing to do with your workstation-upgrade - the two collections being totally separated...

Please show me where I said that.

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: But now you write that the workstation-cost is "included"??

Correct. The amount you quoted includes donations to my workstation, among many other expenses. If you want a breakdown of what those were in the past, direct your request to Mike Smith - I'm sure he'd be very happy to provide you with an answer.

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: It is my personal believe that your level of ConCen-development and admin-tasks doesn't merit a ConCen userpaid dedicated workstation, and as such - I just didn't contribute to it.

OK.

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: The workstation-collection did however, by your own words, negatively affect the donations to run the site.

Those are your words actually. You like to try to put your words in my mouth quite frequently it seems. Why is that, I wonder?

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: ConCen needs donations, but should also budget and adjust to the funds available. My opinion is, that ConCen can be hosted much cheaper, and it should of cause be run with open books and accountability to the owners.

May I suggest that you create a site that meets those criteria? Oh, I guess not, lest I again be accused of telling you to "take it or leave it".

(01-07-2012, 06:30 AM)Loke Wrote: Were that the case, then perhaps more of the 42.000 would contribute?

Perhaps. Why don't you put your suggestions into practice? If you build it, they will come! You're welcome to stay here while you create a site which meets your criteria...

OK Loke, now it's time for you to either provide proof that I called ConCen members imbeciles, or retract the accusation.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to show us some sites which are as open as this one with respect to donations. While you're at it, why not show us a site that has open books...
[Image: randquote.png]
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01-07-2012, 11:05 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-07-2012, 11:11 AM by Loke.)
#11
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
Loke Wrote:The workstation-collection did however, by your own words, negatively affect the donations to run the site.
yeti Wrote:Those are your words actually. You like to try to put your words in my mouth quite frequently it seems.

What you wrote was:
yeti Wrote:While I'm very grateful for the generosity of the few who donated to my workstation upgrade, as a result the monthly donations have dropped off to a trickle.

This line indicates, by your words, that: a) the monthly donations [to the site] has trickled as a result of the generous workstation donations. And implicit; b) you do regard the donations to the site, and the donations to your workstation as being separate.

Loke Wrote:Were that the case, then perhaps more of the 42.000 would contribute?

yeti Wrote:Perhaps. Why don't you put your suggestions into practice? If you build it, they will come!

As I've already stated; I've no interest in creating a new competing ConCen - defying the purpose of a central. And, being co-owner of this site, then it would also be somewhat self-defeating.

Is this all just because I would like to see the books?

yeti Wrote:OK Loke, now it's time for you to either provide proof that I called ConCen members imbeciles, or retract the accusation.

Well, isn't it unnecessary letting your temper take the best of you, and at the very end of your reply...??

I actually wrote:
Loke Wrote:And, why reply with arrogant and hostile comments on how imbecile we must be?

Anyways, your wordings to me now, and to many in general, doesn't exactly give the impression of intellectual respect. Were I to quote examples from just your previous post, then I'd have to quote most. But as before; it doesn't seem that you care, get it, or wants to get it...

yeti Wrote:BTW, I'm still waiting for you to show us some sites which are as open as this one with respect to donations. While you're at it, why not show us a site that has open books...

Is this site like everyone else? Or, is it a very special truth-seeking non-profit user-owned and unique community with a year-long history?

You don't seem to handle these questions very well, yeti. You claiming this to be an user-owned site, then you must understand that it's natural for me to suggest the inherent protocols; one being owners right to oversee finances and hold anyone involved accountable. Your answers doesn't exactly inspire me to donate again, and perhaps others feel that way as well.
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01-07-2012, 11:20 AM,
#12
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
Loke, the fact that you have ignored practically everything I've said to you is proof that you're obviously not interested in helping out this site. You're only interested in stirring up shit. I've answered all your questions and addressed your accusations and insults. You have failed to adress any of the points I have made, yet have responded with accusations based on false assumptions, none of which you have acknowledged with anything other than weasel words and more insults. All you want to do is troll. My patience with you is now at an end. Keep trolling and find out what happens...
[Image: randquote.png]
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01-07-2012, 01:41 PM,
#13
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
Maybe if Loke replied directly to the direct reply from yeti, then the conversation could continue.

Instead your reply started...

Quote:When we - the users - already do own this site, then why should I open my own site - thereby defeat the purpose of "central", and perhaps even also diluting the content and user-base of this site.

And hey, as computer-engineer I'm very aware of the difference between servers, and what I've been suggesting here.

Yeti, if ConCen is doing so well, then why do you post yet another "Financial Crisis" message?

Financially stable and "the site is doing well" are two quite different things, no? Or is this merely an attempt to "win" an argument? I think discussing what's best for the site and ALL the users, more specifically those who share and donate, should be the top priority.

Honestly, all the other stuff, I will admit, I "care, get it, or wants to get it" Wink
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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01-07-2012, 09:25 PM,
#14
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
Yeti wrote (On the tracker)

"Perhaps you non donors should send a personal thanks to them yourself, or better yet join their illustrious ranks! Without them this place would have disappeared long ago."

I am grateful of those who contributed financially to keep this site going. There are some of us who contribute with bandwidth by trying to keep seeding as much as possible. Although I did not contribute financially, I tried to contribute with seeding and whatever occasional material as I could upload. Finances are important and so is participation, they go hand in hand.

I have tried to maintain a high ratio ( 4.0) and will continue as much as possible. In addition I'd like to thank those who have been frequent uploaders as well. I believe with everyone's contributions, in one form or another and whether financial or otherwise ...is what keeps this site alive.

"They scare us all with threats of war. So we forget just how bad things are." 'Open Your Eyes' - Lords Of The New Church 1981



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01-07-2012, 10:46 PM,
#15
RE: ConCen is in a financial crisis - again?
(01-07-2012, 09:25 PM)shortwave Wrote: Yeti wrote (On the tracker)

"Perhaps you non donors should send a personal thanks to them yourself, or better yet join their illustrious ranks! Without them this place would have disappeared long ago."

I am grateful of those who contributed financially to keep this site going. There are some of us who contribute with bandwidth by trying to keep seeding as much as possible. Although I did not contribute financially, I tried to contribute with seeding and whatever occasional material as I could upload. Finances are important and so is participation, they go hand in hand.

I have tried to maintain a high ratio ( 4.0) and will continue as much as possible. In addition I'd like to thank those who have been frequent uploaders as well. I believe with everyone's contributions, in one form or another and whether financial or otherwise ...is what keeps this site alive.

Being in pretty much the same boat I second that! A BIG thanks to all those who are able to help financially, as well as the uploaders and big seeders.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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