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Public Vs Private ownership of industry
10-03-2011, 05:59 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-03-2011, 06:51 PM by DoomSayer.)
#1
Music  Public Vs Private ownership of industry
Public Vs Private ownership of industry

In the face of price gouging at the pumps, the insane profits the banking sector reaps each quarter, the rising cost of insurance, health care and education…..Headbash....it is time to rethink this public VS private contradiction we have allowed to fester in our society.

I think we need public owned representation in all “must have” industries. Call them crown corporations, call them inefficient and bloated, call them hives of inactivity and homes of incompetence….but how much worse could it be?Dodgy

Take the current state of affairs in the energy sector for example; does anyone expect us to believe that the price of gas should actually be $1.30 per liter? Why did we ever sell PetroCanada?

We need a Bank of Canada that actually takes deposits from Canadians and loans money directly to the population…

Provincial run insurance is no worse than the private sector (and many would say vastly better…)

The profit wiggle room created by non-subsidized public sector inefficiencies related to “management by committee”, unionization and all the other lifestyle friendly things that cost money and time that non-public sector employees love to complain about, would more than provide an opportunity for the private sector to continue to operate in these areas without fear of a communist-like state run “big brother is watching you” huge government we all fear (rightfully so I might add…)

Imagine a situation where you can have a public version (always lagging behind its private counterpart….) of all the essential services we have grown to need on a daily/monthly/yearly basis, without the fear of a two tiered system degrading the public version (which will have to continue to break even or shrink as the individual industry contracts or expands…)

The goal of this public presence would be to keep the private sector in check - oppose monopoly, create and maintain high paying public sector jobs, in effect redistribute the wealth to the middle class.

The great thing about the Canadian resource based banana-republic economy driving this kind of initiative, is that the companies who would bitch the most about the implementation of these publicly founded corporations could be quickly shut up with the "if you don't like it, leave!" universal answer for malcontents and scoundrels...some simply legislated "use it or lose it" regulations will keep the wells open and ATMs running...

We could even add affordable housing initiatives and food production/distribution ….

LOL The sky is the limit comrades!LOL

Icon_smile let the storm beginIcon_smile
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10-03-2011, 06:51 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-03-2011, 06:56 PM by Armilus.)
#2
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
Just because you have crooks among bankers, it doesn't mean private ownership is a bad idea, it makes people more dedicated and innovative. When public owns everything nobody cares much about anything, and there is no dedication, except ass-kissing for political careers. Perhaps in the future everything will be public and managed by various experts, but so far ideas like that always turned successful companies into something which required endless bureaucracy for some reason, and then it went under -- not only companies, countries adopting views like that experienced the same problem. Question is, why? You can't say people weren't ready when it comes to dozens of countries, but in each case they managed to turned enthusiastic population into zombies.

Apparently social systems based on views from people who can't compete with the rest of the world when it comes to life itself, can only bring degeneration of society. First you need to remove people like that, then State can help and run institutions without fear of collapse. State must be in sync with interests of people, and people will support the State in return, and in effect make it stronger.
"Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong." -- Herr Wolf
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10-03-2011, 07:18 PM,
#3
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
(10-03-2011, 06:51 PM)Armilus Wrote: Just because you have crooks among bankers, it doesn't mean private ownership is a bad idea, it makes people more dedicated and innovative.
I agree, I have spent my career in the private sector.Icon_biggrin I in no way suggest that the public sector replace the private sector, only that they both co-exist in the same space. I respectfully submit that there is no concrete evidence for a swift dismissal of the idea that private and public sectors can work together, inside the same industries (separate corporations of course).Blush The obvious reason to resist such an endeavor would be the loss of profits on the part of the private sector when confronted with a not for profit (even though horribly inefficient like all public sector efforts…) competitor for the citizen’s hard earned dollar … that is what I mean when I say gouging …. notice how I have targeted the necessary parts of society? Energy, health, banking, education…etc… these should be low margin (but still profitable) industries, the public element to the equation is like the governor on the accelerator pedal of most rental cars, it keeps the car from going too fast, or in this case keeps the profit within reason. Love005
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10-03-2011, 07:23 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-03-2011, 07:24 PM by Armilus.)
#4
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
I understand, i think it is a great idea. One thing is for sure, economy is in a big trouble and i mean worldwide. There will be public unrest and demand for reorganization and reconstruction, so it is an ideal time to introduce new views and ideas. Perhaps a bit too early, but things can escalate very fast.
"Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong." -- Herr Wolf
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01-01-2012, 11:05 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012, 05:13 AM by Infinite.)
#5
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
Private enterprise is controlled by consumer demand, individual choice. No one can put a gun to your head and say shop at Wal-Mart but that's exactly what taxes are. So private companies can be held much more accountable than government despite all the Marxist-type propaganda out there. Nothing about government is run by consent, it's all coercion and violence. The only problem with private enterprise is when the government rigs the market for them, but the problem there is government intervention in the market not the market itself. For example if there wasn't government intervention we wouldn't be complaining about 'the big banks' as much because a lot of them would have already gone out of business. Then they would be replaced by more responsible banks and we wouldn't have as many of these problems.
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08-22-2012, 07:18 PM,
#6
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
The important distinction to be reiterated here is the co-existence of private and public industry in the same market space. Private enterprise is more innovative, more creative, more fluid, public entities are more transparent, more accountable more reliable. It is the partnership and co-operation of both elements that will ultimately bring a higher level of quality and efficiency to almost any quadrant of the economy. All the “must have” services required to live our 21st century lives should be a composite of public and private efforts. At the moment it is private sector driven with some public sector regulation, the insane profiteering going on in the resource, energy, insurance and financial sectors leads me to believe we need a more active public sector presence to mitigate the greed.
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08-24-2012, 01:40 PM,
#7
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
(10-03-2011, 05:59 PM)DoomSayer Wrote: I think we need public owned representation in all “must have” industries.

I wonder why nobody ever tried this before to see what happens. Smile
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08-24-2012, 02:52 PM,
#8
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
Various attempts have been made to nationalize industries (usually with serious ramifications for quality and cost effectiveness…), but to my knowledge never has there been a concerted effort to partner the two aspects inside of one framework, keeping each independent. Obviously the public sector component would have to be self sufficient, there is no way anyone will support a previously “for profit” now subsidized by public funding take over of a successful industry – so the crown corporation model is well suited to this role. As I mentioned in an earlier post

“The profit wiggle room created by non-subsidized public sector inefficiencies related to “management by committee”, unionization and all the other lifestyle friendly things that cost money and time that non-public sector employees love to complain about, would more than provide an opportunity for the private sector to continue to operate in these areas without fear of a communist-like state run “big brother is watching you” huge government we all fear (rightfully so I might add…)”

The problem would be the initial whining on the part of the big business as they are forced to lose %75+ of the profit margins they currently are enjoying and drop to a more consistent veneer of profitability. The moneys end up in the hands of well paid middle class employees rather than share holders and executives. The net result for the economy is a huge improvement in consumer spending and slightly less expensive “must have” industries.
I personally have no gripe with the civil servants who actually are put to work and earn the money they are paid, it is the “we must spend it all or our budget will be reduced next year”, the nepotism, and various other inefficiencies (union entrenchment, and stratification) that I find maddening. The idea that management deserves a bonus for anything other than seriously reducing costs year over year for a period of a decade or more is ludicrous!
The marriage of private and public sectors inside the same industry holds a potential for the best of both worlds. As the private sector innovates, and the public sector regulates, the consumer gets efficiency with transparency, costs fall while quality rises. The trick is to find the balance where each party complements the other without crushing/resenting/undermining ….etc…..
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08-24-2012, 04:26 PM,
#9
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
(08-24-2012, 02:52 PM)DoomSayer Wrote: ...to my knowledge never has there been a concerted effort to partner the two aspects inside of one framework, keeping each independent.

If you are serious, your need to expand your knowledge base is extreme.

I have difficulty believing you think you know a flavor of public/private partnership which has not been described in one of the following economic theories....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Economic_theories

Are you serious?
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08-25-2012, 02:13 PM, (This post was last modified: 08-25-2012, 02:21 PM by rsol.)
#10
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
Nice title for a great debate.

This is a very nuanced subject and I have read very general debates so far. I would like to state that private enterprise is no indication to innovation. I can state culture shock as an example. Most innovation comes from study and experimentation. These are luxuries and expenses to both private industry and public funding. They do not turn a profit but merely find new avenues for profit.

The real difference between public funded and private is simple. motivation.

Now in some cases public funding is better spent because of infrastructure and monopoly. I could cite things like industrial standards. most of these are from public bodies with private and public funding. ISO, for example. It has an international committee basing its funding selling standards to industry and taxes from participating countries (all but about 5).

Such an organisation would not exist if private industry stuck to their own standards. Imagine a tape measure where every country/company had its own idea of what an inch wasSmile

However, having public companies for every industry would be folly. To compete with something that pays you taxes kills your revenue and harms that private company too. This is why corporate donors are all in favour of as little government as possible. They don't want the competition.

And we come back to motivation. A company in whole wants its own product with no one else to compete with. So it can charge more for its goods without someone being able to undercut them. That's why Walmart goes into a town and targets its products to be cheaper than the surrounding stores. killing the others. its social darwinism.

Now this can be a good thing in certain aspects. I believe the USA has one of the worst telecommunications infrastructures in the western world. This is due to no monopolies. mobile networks are a prime example. With competing companies having to be forced to work together. They are under more legislation in europe. every time a new generation of service comes out, each company goes mad and burns each other and harms the customers. Those complaints get nowhere without legislation and public funded bodies.

In most cases, private industry works fine. It does need a bit of policing in though, the less the better im sure. I find when there is too much interference it is at the behest of one company over another. case and point : Apple vs Samsung. There are options for abuse at all levels by both public and private enterprise.

Health: A place where private business makes its abuses most profound. to be regarded as fire, police. They are an emergency service.
food production: devolved with oversight.
Power: Evolved in small countries, devolved in large with oversight.
Telecommunications: same as power.
utilities: same as power.

Its pretty simple stuff. It doesn't need an ism. It doesn't need a political theory or colour. just some common sense. Dogmatic principles compete to dominate like any company in the marketplace. The abuses are similar too. There is no one way to do things. partisans and idealists pervert things by wanting to simplify them.

So one example is the only exception to no rule. It depends on where, who and what. It all depends.
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08-25-2012, 02:23 PM,
#11
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
interesting topic, but what's with the musical notation?

This seems exactly the same topic as
Individualism vs Collectivism, The True Debate of Our Time
http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=35103&highlight=individualism

started 09-25-2010
[Image: conspiracy_theory.jpg]
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09-10-2012, 05:50 AM,
#12
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
I thought I already solved this. I guess no one was paying attention though... Oh well.
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10-10-2012, 10:11 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-10-2012, 10:24 AM by Infinite.)
#13
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
“The 'private sector' of the economy is, in fact, the voluntary sector; and the 'public sector' is, in fact, the coercive sector.”

― Henry Hazlitt

I would add that the 'public' i.e. government sector is also the conspiratorial sector. Why? Because private companies are limited in the extent that they can conspire against their customers, because if people don't feel that they're getting a good deal they can shop elsewhere. Whereas government is run via force as I stated before, and if you don't like their services and don't want to pay for them they'll gladly send guys with guns to your home to kidnap and/or kill you. So they get away with all types of conspiring, as has been well documented. But because society as been brainwashed into subscribing to the insane ideology of altruism, as Ayn Rand used to talk about, the notion of one acting in their self-interest has been demonized. Most people believe that working towards self-interest is greedy and necessitates working against the interests of others. In reality it's people being free to pursue self-interest that creates the most prosperous society for everyone. And a free market severely limits the extent to which people can violate other people's rights as everyone has the same property rights so there are competing interests that negate the absolute power of each other. In contrast, the collectivist doctrine of 'the greater good' or ''public interest' negates this protection and allows for individual rights to be trampled. This is the real way by which private enterprises rule over the people. Not through laissez faire capitalism, contrary to mainstream doctrine. They do it through buying political power and cartelizing their industries through capture of government regulatory agencies. Like how the big banks conspired to put the Fed into place. They didn't want free market banking, they wanted a government central bank that they had control over. There are lots of documented cases of this throughout history, Murray Rothbard is the best historian that covered it.
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10-10-2012, 07:51 PM,
#14
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
one word answer infinite. cartel. if you think private industry doesn't conspire then you need to learn about corporatism.
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12-04-2012, 11:08 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-05-2012, 12:06 AM by macfadden.)
#15
RE: Public Vs Private ownership of industry
Utilities, communication, energy, transportation, health, banking, and natural resources(logging, mining etc) should be nationalized or municipalized under Public ownership and control. A distinction should be made between "State" and "Public" ownership, Public ownership is democratic while State ownership is authoritarian.

Taxation and regulation are a form of public ownership and control, unfortunately most of the world is under a type of fascism that is an ostensibly democratic system of puppet government controlled by an oligarchy who use taxation and regulation only to privatize profits and socialize losses which ultimately amounts to socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor , an inexorable system under which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
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