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I Truly Don't Understand...
09-04-2011, 05:39 PM,
#1
I Truly Don't Understand...
I have never been able to wrap my head around the way people behave concerning their religion. I can understand why politics would be a catalyst for violence since it concerns, usually, tangible topics; i.e., civil rights, economics, foreign relations, etc. But why should it matter what someone else believes spiritually? Arguably unproveable, religious faith is a personal matter.
I'm sure some of you are saying that religious ideology, in many cases, has a direct effect on political views. True. But unless you live in a country where the entire population is of the same faith it becomes a seperate argument altogether.
The amount of depradation and blood-letting, both in the past and today, that is done over religious difference is atrocious and anathema to the entire concept of spirituality. The fact that this is one hurdle the human race cannot seem to clear is indicative of how little-removed from animals we still are and how far we have to go.

KM1
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."-J.Krishnamurti
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09-04-2011, 06:34 PM,
#2
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
Excuses are just that, excuses. The reasons are not the differences, but more than likely the similarities. If it's not religion, it's colour if not colour country, place or town of birth...sometimes even the street you live on, if not that, football teams, booze, ideologies, morality and moral decay...

...but in the end, they are all just excuses, not the reasons. At least, that's been my take on it since I was 11 and watching the Gulf War unfold.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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09-04-2011, 08:31 PM,
#3
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
This is true. I suppose if you are the type of person who would do such things over religion it stands to reason that you would do it over anything.
I guess on the flip side of that coin you've got those people that are overly concerned about your spiritual status. My parents are born-again Christians. I mean the type that truly believe that the King James Bible (even the New Translation) is sacrosanct. Not an error anywhere. They eagerly await the Rapture, though not in a fanatical, dangerous kind of way, and have warned me on several occasions that if I ever show up at their house and all I find is a couple piles of clothes, I'll know that IT happened and that I should prepare for the Tribulation.
After 8 years they've lightened up a bit but every visit it is guaranteed to work it's way into the conversation somehow. They're my parents, I know, but Jesus Christ!
Short of mature debate can't we treat religion like sex in the 50's? Outside of one's home it doesn't exist!

KM1
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."-J.Krishnamurti
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09-04-2011, 08:49 PM,
#4
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
(09-04-2011, 08:31 PM)KM1 Wrote: After 8 years they've lightened up a bit but every visit it is guaranteed to work it's way into the conversation somehow. They're my parents, I know, but Jesus Christ!
Well, maybe not saying things like "Jesus Christ" in such usage would help man Wink Maybe you wouldn't use it is such a way in front of them, but I find a lot of the time people who expect another to act a certain way will often play their "part" in that all too familiar scene that plays out.

(09-04-2011, 08:31 PM)KM1 Wrote: Short of mature debate can't we treat religion like sex in the 50's? Outside of one's home it doesn't exist!

Ah, I'd say that it would be quite a bad way to go about it. Look where that attitude got us in the 50's!
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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09-04-2011, 09:52 PM,
#5
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
I believe all these issues stem from a deeply rooted pack mentality in the human brain.
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09-05-2011, 12:16 AM,
#6
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
(09-04-2011, 08:49 PM)Dunamis Wrote:
(09-04-2011, 08:31 PM)KM1 Wrote: After 8 years they've lightened up a bit but every visit it is guaranteed to work it's way into the conversation somehow. They're my parents, I know, but Jesus Christ!
Well, maybe not saying things like "Jesus Christ" in such usage would help man Wink Maybe you wouldn't use it is such a way in front of them, but I find a lot of the time people who expect another to act a certain way will often play their "part" in that all too familiar scene that plays out.

I dropped the ol' J.C. bomb fecetiously. I am a bit more couth than that.
(09-04-2011, 08:31 PM)KM1 Wrote: Short of mature debate can't we treat religion like sex in the 50's? Outside of one's home it doesn't exist!

Ah, I'd say that it would be quite a bad way to go about it. Look where that attitude got us in the 50's!

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."-J.Krishnamurti
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09-09-2011, 10:36 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-09-2011, 10:42 PM by attariq.)
#7
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
(09-04-2011, 05:39 PM)KM1 Wrote: I have never been able to wrap my head around the way people behave concerning their religion. I can understand why politics would be a catalyst for violence since it concerns, usually, tangible topics; i.e., civil rights, economics, foreign relations, etc. But why should it matter what someone else believes spiritually? Arguably unproveable, religious faith is a personal matter.
This I believe varies in terms of beliefs, social values, and political ethics of each person or group of people or nation.
When electing, for example, you might not see religion as an important factor in who you choose. Most people will probably disagree based on the above factors.

Quote:I'm sure some of you are saying that religious ideology, in many cases, has a direct effect on political views. True. But unless you live in a country where the entire population is of the same faith it becomes a seperate argument altogether.
They still differ greatly in politics even in a one-religion-majority society because of further denominations of each religion into groups differing in political ideology, and sometimes beliefs, like in Egypt for example. The majority in the referendum months back was because it was a Yes/No vote on the constitution. If it were on further details, I doubt a similar result will take place.

Quote:The amount of depradation and blood-letting, both in the past and today, that is done over religious difference is atrocious and anathema to the entire concept of spirituality. The fact that this is one hurdle the human race cannot seem to clear is indicative of how little-removed from animals we still are and how far we have to go.

KM1

Many people share this idea, and so do I. It remains a fact that even secular-claimant societies/nations dominating in our present day still act maliciously towards others based on religion, religion which is unfortunately desecrated to fuel the hatred of the flocks and to justify illegal war & occupation. As I remember a few years ago, certain retaliatory acts were referred to as "Crusades".
It seems naive to take a destructive event, whichever it was, out of context to condemn it, leaving out more than a century (if not plural) of related international conflicts that are all inseparable and produced terrible injustices. The causes are apparent. Solutions need to stem from the origins.
A common mistake is conflicts are classified to be religiously based when in fact it's groups fighting others over land, resources, liberation from occupation, corruption, injustice etc.. Varying religions of warring factions is not always the motive, but many times the fuel. (just an opinion)

In the Quran:

Chapter 11 Verses 118-119

And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ.

Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them....


Note: Because a Muslim is always suspected of trying to convert readers (unlike other ppl of other religions), I am NOT trying that at all. Though I am never ashamed of quoting the scriptures that shape my life and beliefs.

Peace
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09-10-2011, 12:26 AM,
#8
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
Those are good points, attariq. I agree that alot of conflicts stem from extra-religious reasons and that religion is the catalyst. The "country of one faith" I alluded to was a mythical neverland that doesn't really exist. Since people have minds of their own they will always interperet things differently from each other, even if only slightly.

KM1
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."-J.Krishnamurti
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09-10-2011, 07:28 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-10-2011, 07:38 PM by rockingtheboat.)
#9
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
I agree 100% with what Dunamis stated in the first reply.

In my own words, the way I see it too , The "amount of depradation and blood-letting" both in the past and today," (what's depradation by the way ?) in the name of religion have always been and still are just an excuse, a facade, a smoke screen for ulterior motives pertaining to the domain of money and greed, lust after power over others, desire to control, desire to mask one's insecurity and impotence,.....etc.

The way you are reacting to religion is exactly how the powers that be want you to react. Blame religion, not the people in the shadow ie: the wanna-be-masters-over-others. That's how short-sighted people react in general. Step out of the boat.

Of course, I am not saying that any person who claims a religion and is passionate about it is inherently immuned to being a POS.









It is very clear to me that KM1 needs to be tortured into salvation.

Accept Islam for your salvation.
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09-11-2011, 02:43 AM,
#10
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
(09-10-2011, 07:28 PM)rockingtheboat Wrote: I agree 100% with what Dunamis stated in the first reply.

In my own words, the way I see it too , The "amount of depradation and blood-letting" both in the past and today," (what's depradation by the way ?) in the name of religion have always been and still are just an excuse, a facade, a smoke screen for ulterior motives pertaining to the domain of money and greed, lust after power over others, desire to control, desire to mask one's insecurity and impotence,.....etc.

The way you are reacting to religion is exactly how the powers that be want you to react. Blame religion, not the people in the shadow ie: the wanna-be-masters-over-others. That's how short-sighted people react in general. Step out of the boat.

Of course, I am not saying that any person who claims a religion and is passionate about it is inherently immuned to being a POS.









It is very clear to me that KM1 needs to be tortured into salvation.

Accept Islam for your salvation.

Brain fart. I meant "depravation." Blush From what I have seen of organized religions, there is a clear demarcation point between them and spirituality. And I'll agree, as I stated above, that there are alot of underlying motivations with religion being a manipulative catalyst for the unthinking masses. That said, there ARE groups who act irrationally and violently towards others simply over difference in deities. They don't all have ulterior motives. Some people just aren't that smart. Liken it to racism if you want. What kind of idiot do you have to be to hate someone else over a color? A vast number are this simple-minded. Just visit WalMart on the first of any month and you'll glimpse a slice of the pie I am talking about. Icon_biggrin

I guess what I meant was I don't understand why someone else's spiritual beliefs tend to be an issue of extreme importance to some folk. I assume that you were being fecetious with the "Islam is your salvation" remark. If not, then it illustrates my point...sort of.
Why should you care what god I believe in, if any? If I happen to worship at the altar of Shamalamdingdong and offer up burnt offerings of Snicker bars and black licorice, and believe that when I die I'll either go to Disneyland or Knotts Berry Farm depending on my behaviour, how does it affect you in any way?
It doesn't.
And yet, this is a matter of contention for alot of people. This is what I don't understand. Huh
Isn't there a plethora of other, more readily solvable problems we could be addressing?
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."-J.Krishnamurti
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09-14-2011, 02:55 AM,
#11
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
Because beliefs define people, their identity, and instinct of self-preservation instructs them to destroy all those who are perceived as enemy or dangerous, be it infidels, some other race or group of people. It is extremely hard for people to resist this, and they don't even want to, because old life cannot compare to this newly found sense of purpose, fulfillment and belonging.


"Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong." -- Herr Wolf
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09-14-2011, 09:12 AM,
#12
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
I'm well past the suspicion now, and firmly convinced, that it's all about territory.

Religion, culture, traditions, homes, cars, pets and people, amongst other concepts, form the whole of a property of one which must be defended by the one. Popular media has, intentionally or otherwise, fed our fears back into us and has trained us to respond accordingly.

We've been manipulated into a state of being that serves the greater good of only a few instead of mankind. I've found that since I stopped watching television, effectively eliminating Commercials and The Evening News (praise be to the Red Shield in all of its glory) from my sphere of influence, it's been easier to engage in personal growth and development.

I still enjoy series I've downloaded, but ignore much of what's reported in the media I have no control over. I'm convinced that there's a bigger picture at work that trumps all of it and all of us, which no human could defeat.
Truth appears in many forms. Find those that resonate with you.

- "If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky
- "Humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." - Leon Festinger

http://avaaz.org - The World In Action
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09-14-2011, 05:15 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-14-2011, 05:22 PM by rsol.)
#13
RE: I Truly Don't Understand...
perhaps i can add some insite.

Politics IS religeon. for centuries this has been true. Only in the past few hundred years has this not been the case.

for the religious, god is the ultimate authority, beyond money, governments and kings. Its written into laws all over the world. with no god, a worldly authority takes over the individual.

People swear before god to tell the truth in a court of law. These may seem like throwbacks to a bygone age but they do have some relevence to even now.

Communism is the state being more powerful than god. god's will is curcumvented and the states "needs" are the ultimate necessity beyond the rights of man ordained by a diety. expediency over morals.

To sum up. I would defend their seat at the table but would also be the first to shout them down for stealing someone elses. everyone gets a say...
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