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Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
05-24-2011, 01:03 PM,
#1
Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
An instant classic of the conspiracy community some if not most of y'all may have missed.

In response to a demand by an audience member 'old friend' of Len Horowitz's to give up his accepted Knighthood or rescind his American citizenship according to the 13th amendment, Horowitz goes into 20 minutes of damage control, diplomatically insulting his 'friend' in the process by calling him stupid (in so many words) for making the demand in the first place. Michael Collins Piper then chimes in with a little defense of Horowitz in his usual 'conservative-voice-of-freedom' fashion, and just when everyone thinks things have settled down, Michael Tsarion picks up the mic at the 26 minutes mark and elegantly cuts a new hole the size of a widescreen TV in Horowitz's behind. He performs this critical operation of temperance and moderation without direct insult and while respecting Lenny-the-Knight's right to his own sovereignty and decision and all it implies.







[Image: !Be7cj(wB2k~$(KGrHqIH-C4Ere9thJVUBK+...8800005007]

[Image: 113.jpg]



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05-24-2011, 05:44 PM,
#2
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
What was LH to be knighted for? Having one of the "good guys" knighted makes no sense to me.
Reply
05-25-2011, 09:42 AM,
#3
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
(05-24-2011, 05:44 PM)Mike_Smith Wrote: What was LH to be knighted for? Having one of the "good guys" knighted makes no sense to me.

Apparently for his 25 years of AIDS research, humanitarian service to public health, consumer education and natural healing advocacy, according to Horowitz's own website:
Quote: Horowitz Knighted by Sovereign Orthodox Knights Hospitaller of St. John of Jerusalem
NEWS RELEASE
Release: No. KN-01
Date Mailed: Nov. 12, 2006
Contact: Jackie Lindenbach—208/265-8065

New York, NY—The title "Knight of Merit" was bestowed upon Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz today by Grand Prior Prince Michael of Russia in the company of a full regalia from the New York Priory of the Sovereign Orthodox Knights Hospitaller of St. John of Jerusalem.
The honor of knighthood was granted to Dr. Horowitz for his quarter century of humanitarian service to public health, consumer education, AIDS research, and natural healing advocacy. The ceremony required his vow that he would continue this work and his chivalry.
The powers that be have always loved 'humanitarian service.' But Horowitz's anti-vaccine activism was what established whatever reputation he still maintains. It makes no sense that they would knight somebody completely opposed to NWO policies and it's odd that he would accept it knowing that he would be raked-over-the-coals for it. He says he did it just as a joke on the stupidity of most of the conspiracy movement putting so much stock in things such as 'knighthoods,' however the whole point of the audience 'brother' who confronted him was that it was no joking matter and that it's not just conspiracy people who are serious about this but so were the founding fathers in the original 13th amendment of the U.S. Constitution and what it originally said about accepting knighthoods before being replaced (see links below). That's what Tsarion seized on after being annoyed by 20 minutes of Horowitz talking out of his ass and acting arrogant, belittling the conspiracy audience and beating around the bush.

Horowitz's knighting is old news from 2006 and plenty of websites reported and commented on it but Tsarion and his 'brother' in the audience confronting him in-person happened in the 2010 conspiracy con

http://www.davidicke.com/articles/secret-societies-mainmenu-56/5119-dr-len-horowitz-becomes-a-papal-knight-of-malta





Quote:KANSAS CITY -- The Comfort Inn here was the third stop for Freedom Drive, 2002, and the place where Titles of Nobility Amendment (TONA) researcher Suzanne Nevling of San Francisco, California produced a copy of "Military Laws of the United States to which is prefixed the Constitution of the United States."

The book, published under authority of the War Department in 1825, proves that the original 13th Amendment that prohibits Americans from holding Titles of Nobility, was part of the Constitution until it was mysteriously replaced with a new 13th Amendment that banned slavery after the Civil War. "When we found this book last September we knew that we had found that the original 13th Amendment was part of the Constitution as of 1825," Nevling said.
Previous TONA research proves that on March 12, 1819, Virginia became the 13th and final state required for ratification of the original 13th Amendment when it published in the laws of Virginia Act No. 280 as passed by its legislature.
TONA research has shown that the state of Virginia forwarded copies of its revised code to the Department of State, the Congress, the Library of Congress and the President.
There is no indication in the Congressional Record or any other official journal that the original 13th Amendment has been repealed. In the absence of a lawful explanation as to the whereabouts of the missing 13th Amendment, we have little choice but to infer that it is still the law of the land and those who hold titles of nobility or receive largesse from foreign nations are no longer American citizens. Such persons, per the Amendment, are not capable, "... of holding any office of trust or profit..."
The original 13th Amendment is found in copies of the Constitution published up to 1876. From that point on, the original 13th Amendment no longer appears and is replaced by the 13th Amendment that prohibits slavery. It is still a mystery as to how the slavery amendment, ratified under President Abraham Lincoln in 1865, replaced the title of nobility amendment of 1819 in all copies of the Constitution published since 1876.
TONA researchers have been doggedly trying to find out where a properly ratified and never repealed constitutional amendment has been hiding for the last 126 years. Though the exact political location of the missing 13th Amendment has eluded them since David Dodge began researching the issue in the early 1980s, Nevling believes that the final pieces of the TONA puzzle will reveal themselves in due course.


http://www.uhuh.com/constitution/tona.htm



Quote:"If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive, or retain any title of nobility or honour, or shall without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office, or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince, or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them."

A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875
Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, Volume 4

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsj&fileName=004/llsj004.db&recNum=490&itemLink=r%3Fammem%2Fhlaw%3A%40field%28DOCID%2B%40lit%28sj004446%29%29%230040392&linkText=1

http://www.amendment-13.org/


So it was not at all a 'joke' to the original founding fathers of the United States even as it might be to Horowitz.


More than a few famous Americans have been knighted since the replacement of the original 13th amendment, not just Greenspan, Gates, etc. but also peoeple like Jerry Lewis (pushing the medical establishment), Bob Hope, Peter Falk (Columbo) and Charlton Heston (for The Planet of the Apes and Soylent Green predictive programming film roles no doubt). Here's a list of some of them here:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/knighthood.htm



Photos of Michael 'Tsar of Sion' Tsarion (he does hit the 'Zionist angle' hard every-once-in-a-while & has posted plenty of info on the Holohoax on his forum but thinks the Rothschilds are 'low level' and cannot name the uber-secret people behind them; did anyone ever find out what his real name is?) as a young lad:
[Image: bodenstown.jpg]
My brother and I at a Communist Party festival in Bodenstown, on the West Coast of Ireland. Exposure to all "colors" of the political spectrum proved invaluable when it came to my researches into secret society activities.
[Image: cong.jpg]
At Cong in Co. Mayo. Out in the field studying the hundreds of ancient megaliths in the area, as well as the underground caves and standing stones.


Lenny the Knight will be speaking again at this year's conspiracy con in Santa Clara CA (june 4-5) along with that old gatekeeping relic Steven 'nano-thermate' Jones, Steven 'My Great Uncle Was Soviet Union President' Swerdlow, Douglas 'I-was-a-teenage-satanic-assistant-to-Col.-Michael Aquino' Dietrich, Anthony Hilder and a whole cast of characters.

http://www.conspiracycon.com/speakers.html
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06-03-2011, 04:36 AM,
#4
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
This is so WWF.

Has anyone ever read the Arthashastra?

Here's a quote found in the section regarding covert operations, internal security and surveillance of the people:

'After organizing the system of surveillance
over high officials, the king shall set up the
system of keeping watch over the population
in the cities and countryside.....
Secret agents shall ostensibly enter into
arguments with each other, whenever people
gather together in places of pilgrimage,
assemblies, communal gatherings, shows or
festivals.....Spies in the guise of ascetics shall
also find out and report the rumours circulating
among the people.'


That was written at least 2200 years ago and the author, Kautilya, claimed his book was based on older teachings. These methods are nothing new. Every guy on that panel plays a stock character designed to appeal to the varying psychologies of people out there. For too long, conspiracy was in the domain of patriots and white-supremacists, which generally discredited the relevant facts that they presented. However factual ideas tend to have a habit of convincing people that the facts are true, which leads to movements that attempt to divorce themselves from the initial promulgators or advocates in order to return credibilty to the facts in question. Damage control is thus necessary and the use of gatekeepers to direct the flow of these facts and where the information will lead to and the subsequent conclusions gathered must be, at every point, filled with more stuff to lead you astray. Thus we have Collins Piper (who is probably not a shill but his flawed conclusions make him effective for the purposes of offsetting people) plays the role of the non anti-semitic Jew basher for those who need a spokesman that doesn't link them with anti-semites. Tsarion (and David Icke & many others) provides it for those of a new age bent because too much of conspiracy theory (as a sociological phenomena) was traditionally in the domain of hardcore Christians while Horowitz is the sincere Jew looking objectively at conspiracy theory. In business terminology they are all targetting various niche markets - but their commodities do not do what they claim and are thus conmen by virtue that their products do nothing with regards to the grandiose claims often associated with their preaching i.e new consciousness, revolutions, overturning government, supreme health etc.

In context of the Arthshastra, we see a society where the rulers attempted to secretly control everything within that society. That was in and around 200 BC. Plato's Republic goes through similar secret methods the state could utilise to maintain power and control the people. Nothing has changed philosophically, just the methods. In fact it is at the point now, with conspiracy gathering in popularity, that people enter the arena of their own volition and with their flawed views, play the role of disinformationalist without even being on the payroll. All it takes is the promotion of said individuals in shows such as 'Conspiracy Con' where the handlers need only to search, recruit and give a platform to somewhat charismatic, partially knowledgeable, but, above all, people seeking attention veiled in concern to speak on these shows.

There is no conspiracy community and what loosely goes by that name is indeed generally what it's critics call it - a place of nutjobs. Instead what is really being studied is sociology, particularly elitism and theories of power/rulership. Studying those gives the key to understanding why these conspiracies occur. The answers are more fundamental and pragmatic than the usual nonsense of race theory and religion or the lunacy of the new agers, psychedelic crowds, UFO nuts or those who have crafted a philosophy in a vain attempt at finding a surrogate for religion - or a meaning of life, which are really microcosmic variants of macrocosmic phenomena such as religion, but as they are not in sufficient numbers to truly influence society, their atrocities are relatively lower which then gives proponents a sense of superiority.

As for 'Jesuitical Arguments', I've heard Tsarion on Hesham Tillawi's show tell a caller 'I don't care about race' when quizzed about the afrocentrists favourite source of evidence for Egypt being a black civilization - Herodotus, to hide his own lack of knowledge on anything not really conforming to his own paradigm. A paradigm which, is you listen to later Tsarion shows, he clearly does care about race. He is a hypocrite based on the various theories he's promoted in the past:

Quote:Tsarion can speak from experience when talking about manipulation.

Let's see:

Bursts onto the scene exposing aliens, who came into this solar system because they were being chased by other aliens. The first group pretended to hide on Tiamat but really hid on Earth (founding Atlantis which is also the real garden of Eden), their chasers destroyed Tiamat thus creating the asteroid belt and suspected they were also on Earth, so as a precaution set up 'the great web in the sky' known as the moon which does not allow anyone to go further than the moon due to its ability to kill living organisms through sucking spiritual energy off living beings. You can go on the moon itself though. The stranded aliens then manipulated the DNA of the indigenous humans by mixing their own DNA to create a slave race but that didn't work so they had to do it again but made them dumber. The original slaves freed the second batch and mated with them too creating some other hybrid. The aliens then created the reptillians because they were remorseless and coldblooded, but reptillians are not running the show which is one mistake the scholar David Icke makes. The aliens then started building monuments to map the stars so they could tell where they were in the universe so that when the ethereal barrier known as the moon disintegrates in 2012, they can finally leave planet Earth when also the photon belt will descend upon Earth ushering in a new age where man, free from his manipulation, will finally realise his potentiality. In the mean time the aliens, whose technology was destroyed by their persuers, have been controlling humanity ever since to become more scientific in order to create the interstellar spaceships to go home. It was going slow so John Dee contacted the macrobes who gave him scientific knowledge.

Phew.

Then Tsarion become a symbologist, astrologer, Jungian psychologist, expert in spotting occult symbols in the media and an overnight lifetime friend and protegé of his mentor Jordan Maxwell, eventually telling us about psychic vampirism and Moses being Akhenaton where they corrupted ancient wisdom and eventually became Christianity led by the Vatican. He also tells us the origin of evil which just happens to be those pesky aliens.

OK

He then shows how well rounded and open minded he is by praising Vedic, Druidic, Zuni, Hopi and other shamanic cultures along with the goddess tradition and further exposes Christianity as the patriarchal religion that destroyed all these cultures. He then tells us our true history which is Tsarions' home country Ireland has now become the original birth place of civilization, hoping that we forgot about Atlantis and the aliens. This new history relies heavily on Masonic authors many of whom were 32nd Degree Masons who had revived the Druid Order. We then find out why he praised those old cultures: they were products of white men who gave those people their cultures as part of their efforts to bring civilization to the world only to be usurped by the Vatican, who were doing the exact same thing. Some idiotic radiohost from Sweden, who has heard all of this and shared it with people, does not seem to think there are any contradictions in this continually evolving story and thus does not ask any questions to clear up the fog. Tsarion also informs us of his admiration for Theosophy and in particular Madame Blavatsky, despite his anti-secret society message.

Fuck me this is getting stupider.

Tsarion now reinvents himself as an interpreter of philosophy after Chris White and then JoeBlow show him up leading to him banning people posting on his own forum to ask questions arising from the exposés. Tsarion is the only poster, whose posts bear no relation to his radio content and would not look out of place on Stormfront, where his book is actually discussed but he loses credibility due to his half-Indian ancestry. His views on philosophy leave a lot to be desired and he no longer mentions aliens much like David Icke no longer mentioning reptillians.

Interspersed through this has been the chance to join his mystery school for the mystical price of $555 and he invites you to browse his products for sale such as DVD sets priced at over $300 and his books which bear no relation to each other. Oh and tarot readings via email. He has also worked with Indigo children.

That is a very credible guy right there and quite frankly I'm surprised he is still sought after (I blame Alex Jones giving him free publicity). We can only wonder what is next but as his message has slowly become more terrestrial over time, it is surely just around the corner before his next book is an updated version of Mein Kampf with its mixture of conspiracy, new agey race mythology, discussions of public manipulation and other such assorted nonsense.

http://concen.org/tracker/torrents-details.php?id=21154&page=2#comments

People have to stop raving about these characters.
Reply
06-03-2011, 09:00 AM,
#5
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
Quote:the scholar David Icke

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHA!

good one
Reply
06-03-2011, 02:44 PM,
#6
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
(05-24-2011, 01:03 PM)Negentropic Wrote: An instant classic of the conspiracy community some if not most of y'all may have missed.

Instant classic? Yawn. Sorry, but we've got more important things to worry about than whether or not Horowitz accepted an honorary title from the Knights Hospitaller, who BTW have nothing to do with the Knights of Malta.

Even if the 13th amendment wasn't rescinded, it would have nothing to do with this title. If I'm made a knight in my local motorcycle gang, is that the same as accepting a knighthood from the crown of the U.K.?

ConCen is better off without the tabloid trivia, don't you think?

[Image: randquote.png]
Reply
06-03-2011, 09:18 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-03-2011, 09:24 PM by R.R.)
#7
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
(06-03-2011, 09:00 AM)stikmata Wrote:
Quote:the scholar David Icke

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHA!

good one

I know.

I've actually heard Tsarion call Icke a scholar on one of his older Red Ice shows. I think he also mentioned how he'd given Icke some research regarding Ireland for one of Icke's older books. That is very scholarly by Icke there, Tsarion wasn't even a published author and Icke doesn't even mention Tsarion in his books - it was either Children of the Matrix or the Biggest Secret if I remember correctly. Then again Icke virtually ripped Jordan Maxwell's astrotheology hypothesis and didn't mention him either. That is also very scholarly.

Don't get me started on Icke!

Quote:thinks the Rothschilds are 'low level' and cannot name the uber-secret people behind them

Thats because he doesn't know and is busy beefing with Craig Oxley over who they are. Oxley mentions the numerous families that provided Popes over the centuries.....

PS those pictures of Tsarion are absolutely hilarious.

Quote:ConCen is better off without the tabloid trivia, don't you think?

Absolutely. Give me concen over 'Conspiracy CON' anyday.
Reply
06-04-2011, 11:07 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-04-2011, 11:11 AM by Swordfish.)
#8
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
who cares about the personalities.
Lets focus on the content. Truth from any source is still truth

....and of course vice versa before someone smart arses my comment LOL
Remember you are unique
...just like everyone else.
Reply
06-07-2011, 11:01 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-07-2011, 12:04 PM by Negentropic.)
#9
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
(06-03-2011, 09:18 PM)R.R Wrote:
(06-03-2011, 09:00 AM)stikmata Wrote:
Quote:the scholar David Icke

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHA!

good one

I know.

I've actually heard Tsarion call Icke a scholar on one of his older Red Ice shows. I think he also mentioned how he'd given Icke some research regarding Ireland for one of Icke's older books. That is very scholarly by Icke there, Tsarion wasn't even a published author and Icke doesn't even mention Tsarion in his books - it was either Children of the Matrix or the Biggest Secret if I remember correctly. Then again Icke virtually ripped Jordan Maxwell's astrotheology hypothesis and didn't mention him either. That is also very scholarly.

Don't get me started on Icke!

Quote:thinks the Rothschilds are 'low level' and cannot name the uber-secret people behind them

Thats because he doesn't know and is busy beefing with Craig Oxley over who they are. Oxley mentions the numerous families that provided Popes over the centuries.....

PS those pictures of Tsarion are absolutely hilarious.

Quote:ConCen is better off without the tabloid trivia, don't you think?

Absolutely. Give me concen over 'Conspiracy CON' anyday.


Tabloid trivia is often where bits of the truth or clues to the truth make their initial appearance.


As far as the possiblity of every single so-called 'leader' of the conspiracy underground and over-ground from Alex Jones and David Icke down being a bunch of secret agents, high-grade useful idiots or even self-made shills, I really couldn't care less because I don't follow any one of them like a guru and neither should anyone else. I take what's good from each one of these guys and move on. I don't try to fit reality to my opinions (like all these 9/11 plane-huggers who can't produce a single authentic video or even plane part, yet insist planes crashed into buildings because a 'real' video and 'real' plane parts must exist somewhere, in some top secret government stash, lo and behold ! ). I make an effort to fully put all my opinions to the test on a regular basis.


I'm a big fan of Tsarion's psychological analysis of the inner-driven battle between individualism and collectivism which is the real bottom line of all the issues out there between the conformists & non-conformists, the change of consiousness which every individual has to arrive at in his own way and which is the only real revolution, the unstoppable one. He's a much deeper thinker than Icke or Maxwell and I could care less what Chris White (whoever the fuck that is, never heard of him) or least-of-all what that Iranian welfare clown Joe Blow has to say about him.


His Alien-DNA theories, the flip-side of Icke's reptilian stuff I can't fathom but who the fuck knows about all that ancient esoteric science fiction stuff Tsarion's into. It might be interesting to listen to or read but I couldn't verify any of the historical stuff he says in those 100s of dvds he put out anyway. I guess if 4 or 5 scholars come to the same conclusion by different routes in different times then maybe there is a possibility of that historical conclusion being likely.

Tsarion's 'Hitler was a British-agent' theory I completely disagree with. It's ridiculous on its face to say that as beat-down as Germany already was after WWI, and as fully as Jews owned Germany after WWI, Hitler was promoted so they could build the country up through an economic miracle, force the Jews out that had full control of all aspects of the country to send them to Israel and then completely destroy Germany in a massive blood-sacrifice. Hitler did take money from the Warburgs / Rothschilds in the beginning but so what? Like David Irving answered Eustace Mullins in one of his talks when asked, Hitler would take money from anyone who was stupid enough to give it to him. Hitler took their money and then double-crossed them and started printing his own money, that's why Germany became marked for total destruction from 1933 on. As far as the symbols of the Nazi party having things in common with some other fancy occult symbols, symbolic conincidence, no matter how obvious, BY-ITSELF doesn't prove jack-shit.

[Image: edward-hitler.jpg]

Ezra Pound supported fascism in world war II, so did Heidegger and Stravinsky and many others. None of these guys were stupid men. Pound considered fascism the necessary surgical knife to get rid of the international bankers and their paradigm systems of mercantile capitalism and communism once-&-for-all. Just because he supported surgery as an emergency measure doesn't mean he advocated surgery as a permanent way of life, no way, he was an American first and foremost, never gave up his U.S. citizenship and directed his radio broadcasts from Italy directly to the U.S. to try to save Americans from getting entangled in the war. No Pound, no Eustace Mullins, no Eustace Mullins, no G Edward Griffin and no "Creature from Jeckyll Island" book promoted by AJ & GCN and Ron Paul, no Eustace Mullins and G Edward Griffin, no Michael Tsarion (he considers Pound, Mullins and Griffin his mentors and mentions their names often, right alongside Blavatsky and Ayn Rand).

A good litmus test of whether somebody's for real or not is 'the holohoax.' Tsarion has a ton of posts on the holohoax in the Zionism section of his forum. This is something that could put him in prison in half the countries of Europe. Alex Jones won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. If Tsarion's willing to tackle that, then he immediately becomes a stand-up guy and the rest of his intellectual goofballisms can be taken with a grain of salt. If he turns out to be a 'secret deep-cover agent' down the line, like that asshole Chomsky, so be it, he exposed enough to be a double-agent.


"From the alienated starting-point of our pseudo-sanity everything is equivocal. Our sanity is not 'true' sanity. Their madness is not 'true' madness. Our 'normal,' adjusted state is too often the abdication of ecstasy, the betrayal of our true potentialities, that many of us are only too successful in acquiring a false self to adapt to these realities" -- R. D. Laing



Quote:In business terminology they are all targetting various niche markets - but their commodities do not do what they claim and are thus conmen by virtue that their products do nothing with regards to the grandiose claims often associated with their preaching i.e new consciousness, revolutions, overturning government, supreme health etc.

That's a great paragraph you wrote there, very perceptive, but I don't agree that their preaching is useless. Just the fact that you're considering all those issues independently and concluding that no-change-is-possible because all these people are agents-of-control-&-herding-of-change proves that they are effective. They have changed your thinking even if to just control it or make it pessimistic. And just the fact that they have been the catalyst of deep thought for people like you as opposed to deep sleep when deep sleep is obviously more preferable to those in power, that, in itself is positive change and reason for optimism even if you prefer to keep your guard up. Tsarion, in particular, focuses on each individual completely independent of the group forming the new consciousness on their own. He does not advocate proselytizing anyone who is not interested or does not ask you directly for information. None of that AJ talk-to-people-everywhere nonsense. He talks to no one unless they ask him what he does first.

When you're dealing with high-concepts like that full-time as an occupation, putting your ass out there with 100s of hours of interviews and dvds and 1000 page books or whatever, a certain amount of contradiction and hypocrisy is inevitable and it's also inevitable that other, no-talent small-timer hypocrites no one really cares about will latch on to these inconsistencies of the big fish as 'proof of treachery' and a way of drawing attention to their own all-too-putrid and petty selves. I can't name one person, famous or unknown, genius or humble, who hasn't been a hypocrite at one or another time in their life. There are degrees though and the hypocrisy of someone like Alex Jones goes way beyond that of a Tsarion or Charles Giuliani.
Reply
06-07-2011, 05:59 PM,
#10
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
(06-07-2011, 11:01 AM)Negentropic Wrote: I don't try to fit reality to my opinions (like all these 9/11 plane-huggers who can't produce a single authentic video or even plane part, yet insist planes crashed into buildings because a 'real' video and 'real' plane parts must exist somewhere, in some top secret government stash, lo and behold ! ).

Plane huggers? LOL

Your credibility is zero.

[Image: randquote.png]
Reply
06-07-2011, 08:23 PM,
#11
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
I have been falling asleep to some of Tsarion's videos, and all I can say for sure is he makes people think. Well, sometimes there's a moment. At least I'll give him that.
Reply
06-08-2011, 12:30 AM,
#12
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
Quote:As far as the possiblity of every single so-called 'leader' of the conspiracy underground and over-ground from Alex Jones and David Icke down being a bunch of secret agents, high-grade useful idiots or even self-made shills, I really couldn't care less because I don't follow any one of them like a guru and neither should anyone else.

That's a good point which you should've mentioned in the initial post. By proclaiming Tsarion's antics were a 'classic' of a community that doesn't really exist, it sounded like he was being promoted to guru-like status. It's a common theme though with many Tsarion followers or anyone else whose message has an undercurrent of mysticism hinting at the meaning of life such as David Icke. I do believe there is a spiritual component to the universe but as far as making a claim as to what that component is I will not do (except to state that I think there is one). I don't see any evidence though in the claims of things that the likes of Tsarion or Icke promote, some of which are concepts that cancel each other out such as astrology and creating your own reality.

Tsarion, with his tarot cards trying to find out how your predetermined life is going to pan out so that you can better control your life is rather stupid simply because if astrology is correct, that your life is mapped out before you are born or on the day based on planetary alignments (yet the gravitational or 'vibrational' effects of doctors or the mother etc are never taken into account) virtually eliminates the discussion of choice or individuality, and more to the point, contradicts being able to change it. All it does is in fact make you conform.

As psychological warfare, you can see the example of the Matrix movie, where the concept of destiny was used on Neo to conform to the plan of the machines which was reinforced by the oracle - the choice has already been made, it is understanding that one is seeking (he'd never made a choice and was aware of this fact but a combination of Morpheus' zealous adherence to 'prophecy reinforced by the people around him made him go along with it anyway). In all the different analysis of that film, no one ever seems to look at it through the eye of third party manipulation. Its not that the concepts were true, they were careful processes to get Neo to behave in a manner he normally wouldn't have which would have allowed the machines to fully enslave humanity.

The Matrix discussion will be of more relevance later, but the point for now is that Tsarion displays typical flawed logic and does not address or explain how mutually contradictory concepts are reconciliated. This may not apply to you and it was my own folly that lead me to assume you held Tsarion in high-ish regard. But then again:

Quote:I'm a big fan of Tsarion's psychological analysis of the inner-driven battle between individualism and collectivism which is the real bottom line of all the issues out there between the conformists & non-conformists

Psychoanalysis has become a surrogate for religion or spirituality, primarily for those not into mainstream religion or atheistic philosophy. For Tsarion, this is a clearly a superficial influence from Carl Jung, and a deeper influence based upon a naturalistic metaphysics (which influenced Jung) and is generally an idea of determinism which is heavily steeped in mysticism conforming to the various pre-Christian pagan religions. All these various things taken as a whole suggest that Tsarion is no individual thinker who is convinced by evidence, rather he conforms to pre-existing biases and sets out to find evidences in favour of them. He is a studied phenomena which can be read about in this book:

[Image: 0822330717.01._SX220_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg]

You will find a ton of Tsarion's philosophy in that book which tells me that he is no independent thinker. He is a mixture of aryan philosophy, pagan spirituality, Jungian psychology, anti-Judeo-Christianity and promoter of almost any social commentary and conspiracy theory that paints his projections in an undesirable manner just like the various groups mentioned in that book. These concepts all blend nicely to various esoteric orders since Blavatsky's days, hence the predictable promotion of such things by Tsarion. In fact a lot of these ideas came out of various Masonic and Rosicrucian lodges along with 'spurious' magical lodges which is why he mixes them all together. From a point of view of social manipulation, these people are meant to popularise certain ideas which are meant to become social movements in the future purely to cause the very rifts in society that allow for governments to enact their laws.

Quote:He's a much deeper thinker than Icke or Maxwell and I could care less what Chris White (whoever the fuck that is, never heard of him) or least-of-all what that Iranian welfare clown Joe Blow has to say about him.

Icke and Maxwell are barely thinkers. Chris White, for all his christian biases, at least tries to engage in an analysis of evidence and material and, to his credit, does from time to time acknowledge his bias which he freely admits shapes his view on things. Joe Blow is an idiot but does actually fulfill your criteria of 'credible' by also being a 'holohoaxer'. You're right about the laws in various countries regarding discussions of that topic, Tsarion has lectured in England and I think he's done some work with Red Ice in Sweden which makes me wonder why nothing has happened to him, especially as Daryl Bradford Smith won't touch that topic because he knows the French authorities will be after him. Maybe its because Tsarion goes by his real name when travelling. Holohoax promotion is not a 'litmus test' either, although can lend credibilty to someone looking to subvert certain things or movements.

Quote:Tsarion's 'Hitler was a British-agent' theory I completely disagree with.....Hitler did take money from the Warburgs / Rothschilds in the beginning but so what? Like David Irving answered Eustace Mullins in one of his talks when asked, Hitler would take money from anyone who was stupid enough to give it to him.

Look at it from a perspective of third party manipulation. Hitler was Neo in the Matrix, made to believe he was special, with smarter people out there knowing his predictable nature would lead to a beneficial (for them) situation arising. Thus those people weren't stupid, they knew precisely what would happen (by giving him money) and provoked events to their advantage. The creation of a world government prototype of the U.N. could never have occured without the 'bad guy' justifying it all. Thats not to say Hitler himself was chosen, rather the conditions were created to ensure a dictator would arise who would impose a collectivist system on his people, much like these manipulators baiting the muslim world into the next war that will fully legitimize world government (who are also 'stupid' enough to give money to create the Islamic 'terrorists').

Quote:(he considers Pound, Mullins and Griffin his mentors and mentions their names often, right alongside Blavatsky and Ayn Rand).

Blavatsky and Rand are thrown in to conform to pagan philosophies' disdain for Christian patriarchy - alongside promoting the (fictional) goddess tradition. Rand promoted various imperial strategies which Tsarion seems to be against, but I suppose Tsarion level hypocrisy gravitates towrds like minds.

Funny he doesn't mention his mentor Jordan Maxwell. I guess that was his 'litmus test' to gaining credibilty in the (fictional) conspiracy community.

Quote:No Pound, no Eustace Mullins, no Eustace Mullins, no G Edward Griffin and no "Creature from Jeckyll Island" book promoted by AJ & GCN and Ron Paul

Lets all kiss Ezra Pound's ass then. In all seriousness, central banking practices were well criticized throughout American history and 'The Fed' has been blasted from many quarters since its inception, none of which raised enough dents or public query to have it changed. What this quote suggests to me is the further raising of these men to guru-like status. You perform the same antics that you are hinting fans of Jones do - idolatry of conspiratorial personalities. If you are looking for information and not caring too much about the personality (as you said in your post), Jones, for all his faults, is one of the best sources for current events. Idolising people because they conform to your view is evidenced here:

Quote:If Tsarion's willing to tackle that, then he immediately becomes a stand-up guy and the rest of his intellectual goofballisms can be taken with a grain of salt. If he turns out to be a 'secret deep-cover agent' down the line, like that asshole Chomsky, so be it, he exposed enough to be a double-agent.

First of all, Tsarion exposed nothing, he merely lent his support to an existing proposition. Secondly that does not equate to giving him a pass for other faults. If he is shoddy in his conclusions elsewhere, why is this particular event strong enough to make you not question his approach? If being a holocaust denier means you give credit to someone, that is akin to a child taking candy off a stranger - you are ripe for manipulation by someone else.

Going through all this solidifies this further for me:

Quote:There is no conspiracy community and what loosely goes by that name is indeed generally what it's critics call it - a place of nutjobs.

Further enhanced by:

Quote:I don't try to fit reality to my opinions (like all these 9/11 plane-huggers who can't produce a single authentic video or even plane part, yet insist planes crashed into buildings because a 'real' video and 'real' plane parts must exist somewhere, in some top secret government stash, lo and behold ! ).

Quote: Just the fact that you're considering all those issues independently and concluding that no-change-is-possible because all these people are agents-of-control-&-herding-of-change proves that they are effective. They have changed your thinking even if to just control it or make it pessimistic. And just the fact that they have been the catalyst of deep thought for people like you as opposed to deep sleep when deep sleep is obviously more preferable to those in power, that, in itself is positive change and reason for optimism even if you prefer to keep your guard up.

Totally tinged with the deterministic interpretation of Tsarion's psychoanalysis. Individualism, collectivism or anything else are not one track things like a train that you just board and it takes you to your destination. My thinking was there long before I heard of Tsarion, the pessimism is from the numerous religious phonies I met, the various do gooders who secretly visited prostitutes, the numerous liars and various pathetic excuses for humans I've met throughout my life. When I came across 'conspiracy' it was easy for me to undersatnd because I saw so many easily manipulated, gullible peaople at the mercy of what I now know to be psychopathic personalities. I do things 'independently' because I have seen first hand the damage conformity can do and not because some theory sounded good or someonepromoted the idea.

Quote:When you're dealing with high-concepts like that full-time as an occupation, putting your ass out there with 100s of hours of interviews and dvds and 1000 page books or whatever, a certain amount of contradiction and hypocrisy is inevitable and it's also inevitable that other, no-talent small-timer hypocrites no one really cares about will latch on to these inconsistencies of the big fish as 'proof of treachery' and a way of drawing attention to their own all-too-putrid and petty selves. I can't name one person, famous or unknown, genius or humble, who hasn't been a hypocrite at one or another time in their life. There are degrees though and the hypocrisy of someone like Alex Jones goes way beyond that of a Tsarion or Charles Giuliani.

Dealing with 'high concepts' full time does not mean one understands them. By that logic all economists, politicians, academics etc really are experts in their field which is laughable in light of what studying reveals. I agree there are opportunists who will leech of one's name to promote their own. I don't think I can agree that Jones is more hypocritical than Tsarion though. Tsarion just seems to utilise every alternative theory out there without analysing or evaluating them or even reconciling them within his own framework. For instance it has variously been the Jews, the Jesuits, the aliens, the macrobes, the Judeo-Christian paradigm and now our psychologies that are the 'bad guys' of the world.

At various points it has been the mix of alien and human DNA which led to man's neurosis, then it was a cataclysm a-la Julian Jaynes' work, then it was Christian values imposed on pagans that caused it and on and on it goes. I don't want to open up the old arguments but the stuff that led to his forum closure was pretty revealing and on top of that, his forum posts bear no resemblance to his public persona, where he discusses things that he doesn't even mention in lecturing and his radio interviews such as the 'holohoax'.

Afterall that I am led to one conclusion:

Fuck Michael Tsarion.
Reply
06-08-2011, 12:41 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-08-2011, 12:41 AM by crystal.)
#13
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
Thanks Negentropic for a rare thought provoking post on here.

'I don't follow any one of them like a guru and neither should anyone else'

'I'm a big fan of Tsarion's psychological analysis of the inner-driven battle between individualism and collectivism which is the real bottom line of all the issues out there.'

Agreed!


Reply
06-09-2011, 03:53 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-09-2011, 03:56 PM by shuffle.)
#14
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
Good thread this.

Quote:I have been falling asleep to some of Tsarion's videos, and all I can say for sure is he makes people think. Well, sometimes there's a moment. At least I'll give him that.

- Heheh... you should have seen him run over by an hour at Beyond Knowledge in Liverpool. People were so fidgety by the last hour the chair squeaks were louder than his voice. He needs to do breaks in his talks. Maybe a bit of yoga or line-dancing half way thru.

Also interesting to see Tsarion was a denim wearing rocker in the 80s Big Grin

I threw away my denim jacket and my iron maiden collection when i went to the Donnington Rock Festival and got showered in piss cos it was the in thing to piss in a bottle and chuck it up in the air the whole night. Call me a wuss... frikkin Neanderthals. Bring on the rave era a few years later.

"We are just glorified monkeys in suits.... show me where it's written we should be able to model the cosmos?!" -Terence McKenna, 21st Century Bard
R.I.P-ranks Terence. I miss your take on life.
=-=
Reply
06-14-2011, 11:29 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2011, 10:38 AM by Negentropic.)
#15
RE: Tsarion elegantly rips Len Horowitz a new one for accepting knighthood
Quote:Plane huggers?

Your credibility is zero.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm still waiting for pictures of those actual plane parts that can be traced to any of those so-called 'planes' on 9/11 on that other thread I started. None of you guys came up with any except some supposed info on who said that they really had it somewhere and were keeping it 'secret' & some technical nonsense about how 'nothing' can be proven with 'low quality' video therefore 'planes exist' and we shall continue to hug planes eternally into oblivion. No plane parts, no authentic video (all 45 available videos are 100% fake & doctored). You can actually collect 100,000 dollars from Ace Baker if you can produce an authentic high-quality video, pro or amateur. Offer's been open for some 4 years now, still no takers. You're putting your full trust in the proven liars of the mainstream media and their 45 fake videos and no plane parts found out of 100s of thousands of individually numbered that could have been photographed and traced to only those planes (Murray street PROVEN wrong engine & inflated wheel unit don't count, where the hell are the rest of the 3 million parts?). Not one friggin plane part in 10 years! Not 1 single authentic high quality non-doctored video in 10 years. And still you guys refuse to change your opinions to fit reality. So who's credibility is zero now? LOL


[Image: credibility-demotivational-poster-1226137367.jpg]


In case one of you plane-huggers does find the 'miracle video' that finally redeems your hard-headed opinions apply right here for your $100, 000 dollar reward:


$100,000 Amateur Video Challenge
http://acebaker.blogspot.com/2009/04/100000-amateur-video-challenge.html

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