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Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
04-05-2011, 02:03 PM,
#1
Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
In their controversial book, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception, the authors Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh give a theory for the long period of time between the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls and when their contents were finally made public. They say the church was hiding evidence found in the scrolls that Jesus was a fictional character made up by the apostle Paul, who was a sleeper agent for the Romans.

If the theory sounds ludicrous, it is. These are the two crackpot authors that made up the Priory of Sion. Here’s a read on the Dead Sea scrolls controversy: http://www.ancientmonks.com/mystical-order-of-neglected-knowledge/2nd-degree-brother-of-the-cloak-1/the-dead-sea-scrolls-1
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04-05-2011, 09:14 PM,
#2
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Quote:These are the two crackpot authors that made up the Priory of Sion
no they didn't, they were totally taken in by Jean Pierre Plantard(who later added De St Clair)
he and his crony planted the "dossier secrets" in the national library in France and pulled Baigent ,Leigh and Lincolns(real name Henry Soskin) pisser for years.
plantard(convicted fraudster and Nazi sympathiser during WW") and his crony Gérard of Sède side kick and author of a book written in pure bullshittish to promote the Priory/Templar/Rennes theories, Philippe de Chérisey who composed the fake documents
the funny thing is that they have now gone from a bloodline of christ to christ not even existing.
As for Paul.. he was a Roman Citizen and DID plead to Roman soldiers to Save him when James The Just was going to throw him off the Walls on Temple Mount.
Paul took what was a UBER strict Jewish Sect and turned it upside down and mixed it in with a LOT of stuff that would appeal to an audience with a Romano-Greek influence.
Mind you the only contemporary evidence of christ existing was proven to be a later false addition into Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews which was a large tract written to appease the Roman emperor.
Josephus was a Jewish General who switched sides.
Albeit Henry lincoln doesn't sem to be involved in THIS book...
anyways to cut a long story short... MasterDruid is spot on when stating that the authors are very much full of crapioca.
[Image: siolflag.gif]
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05-31-2011, 05:18 PM,
#3
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
JMO: I don't think it matters so much whether or not the man Jesus actually existed as much at it matters how the claim of 'god's son' evolved. The fourth century brought us a wealth of pure BS with Constantine creating a religion to unite his kingdom. It was always, ever about POWER. Of course the old testament is a pile of wishful thinking as well so the very foundation of the religion is sand. The biblical religions are not long for humanity. And when they are finally laid to rest, man will be free to evolve once again.

Many teachers have come and gone and humanity still does not learn. But it behooves the powers that be to keep humanity in darkness lest they find their true natures.
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06-26-2011, 03:23 PM,
#4
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Church suppressed a lot they were experts at covering their lies and their tracks. And 1600 years later they are still suckering people with it.
(05-31-2011, 05:18 PM)Amerikagulag Wrote: JMO: I don't think it matters so much whether or not the man Jesus actually existed as much at it matters how the claim of 'god's son' evolved. The fourth century brought us a wealth of pure BS with Constantine creating a religion to unite his kingdom. It was always, ever about POWER. Of course the old testament is a pile of wishful thinking as well so the very foundation of the religion is sand. The biblical religions are not long for humanity. And when they are finally laid to rest, man will be free to evolve once again.

Many teachers have come and gone and humanity still does not learn. But it behooves the powers that be to keep humanity in darkness lest they find their true natures.

Quote:The fourth century brought us a wealth of pure BS with Constantine creating a religion to unite his kingdom.

Even he did not succumb to his invented religion until he was on his death bed.

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06-27-2011, 12:56 PM,
#5
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Cracks me up sometimes. What do people expect from a autocratic governmental-style institution set up by men? Name one such institution that's done any good?

Leo Tolstoy, in 'The Kingdom of Heaven is Within You Wrote:Every branch in a tree comes from the root in unbroken connection; but the fact that each branch comes from the one root, does not prove at all that each branch was the only one. It is precisely the same with the Church. Every church presents exactly the same proofs of the succession, and even the same miracles, in support of its authenticity, as every other. So that there is but one strict and exact definition of what is a church (not of something fantastic which we would wish it to be, but of what it is and has been in reality) a church is a body of men who claim for themselves that they are in complete and sole possession of the truth.

And these bodies, having in course of time, aided by the support of the temporal authorities, developed into powerful institutions, have been the principal obstacles to the diffusion of a true comprehension of the teaching of Christ.

Only read the above passage last week, quite applicable to the question 'Does the "Church" Oppress?', dead sea scrolls or not.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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06-30-2011, 12:00 AM,
#6
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
(04-05-2011, 09:14 PM)pax681 Wrote:
Quote:These are the two crackpot authors that made up the Priory of Sion
no they didn't, they were totally taken in by Jean Pierre Plantard(who later added De St Clair)
he and his crony planted the "dossier secrets" in the national library in France and pulled Baigent ,Leigh and Lincolns(real name Henry Soskin) pisser for years.
plantard(convicted fraudster and Nazi sympathiser during WW") and his crony Gérard of Sède side kick and author of a book written in pure bullshittish to promote the Priory/Templar/Rennes theories, Philippe de Chérisey who composed the fake documents
the funny thing is that they have now gone from a bloodline of christ to christ not even existing.
As for Paul.. he was a Roman Citizen and DID plead to Roman soldiers to Save him when James The Just was going to throw him off the Walls on Temple Mount.
Paul took what was a UBER strict Jewish Sect and turned it upside down and mixed it in with a LOT of stuff that would appeal to an audience with a Romano-Greek influence.
Mind you the only contemporary evidence of christ existing was proven to be a later false addition into Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews which was a large tract written to appease the Roman emperor.
Josephus was a Jewish General who switched sides.
Albeit Henry lincoln doesn't sem to be involved in THIS book...
anyways to cut a long story short... MasterDruid is spot on when stating that the authors are very much full of crapioca.


Quote:Mind you the only contemporary evidence of christ existing was proven to be a later false addition into Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews which was a large tract written to appease the Roman emperor.

Thats not evidence. The Josephus passage was a forgery no doubt done by the great church father Euseibus who even admitted that lieing to advance the faith was OK...Origen who knew Josephus well admitted that he did not acknowledge knowing or ever hearing of a Jesus.

Josephus wrote volumes on practically obscure people of his time and only dedicated one little small passage to this jesus! Don't you think that if he had known of this Jewish miracle worker he would have written a lot more?

Eusebius:
Adovcated fraud in the interest of faith.
Had been known to tamper with Josephus works and many other writers worls as well.
He uses this passage in Evangelical Demonstration Book (3) page 124:
"Certainly the attestions I have already produced concerning our saviour may be sufficent. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."

Passage interrupts the narrative.
Has nothing to do with what precedes or follows it.
Position of the text clearly shows that the text has been separated by a later hand to make room for it.

The jesus myth is full of holes that the church forgot to make up lies for. There is no evidence contemporary or otherwise to support an Historical Jesus notta, zip nothing!



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06-30-2011, 12:30 AM,
#7
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
I think the true history of Jesus will never be known but he was a phenomeom or perhaps a personofication of a movement that happened ~2000 years ago. TPTB tried to contain by build a religious / social construct around it, incorporating it into the Monarchy, Law and the evolution of the Church.

It's been hijacked and twisted since it incarnation but there are still some base truths in it, particularly in the new testament. It's not an accurate history but it's not all wrong. It's not all twisted to serve those in power.

Jesus (or whomever he was really named) himself may or may not have existed and may have been a composite character or the embodiment of a social, political, educational and spiritual movement.

I believe in that. As for scrolls they can be faked too. Blind faith is never a good leader. Balance it all with knowledge, reflection, logic and anything intangible you may have at your disposal for insight. We can learn from history but history can also be defined as 2 minutes ago in our own experience.

Use every tool in the shed to plan, think, communicate and eventually manifest those innovative ideas into constructive reality. Take what power you have and build your own future. Have it built upon a foundation of what you feel in your heart is a strong moral base. Don't hold back, don't get so wrapped up in thought that it paralyzes action.

Find that balance that works best for you.

/IMO
There are no others, there is only us.
http://FastTadpole.com/
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06-30-2011, 12:54 AM,
#8
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Quote:I think the true history of Jesus will never be known but he was a phenomeom or perhaps a personofication of a movement that happened ~2000 years ago. TPTB tried to contain by build a religious / social construct around it, incorporating it into the Monarchy, Law and the evolution of the Church.

I'd agree.

My opinion is that he spoke out against Roman Imperialism and Jewish priestly corruption, rallying the masses into what would have been an insurrection or revolution. He was murdered in an unoriginal way for the time to curtail the movement but he became a martyr somewhat. Without a 'leader', so to speak, the movement segmented into different branches but retained a disdain for Rome who then essentially modified whatever original teachings of his were left to pacify the masses and to continue their rule. Whatever memory of the man remained became incorporated with the mystery tradition of which Rome was a continuation of the Greek and Egyptian mysteries. A new pantheon was built up around this mythical character which syncretised various familiar elements to appease the pagan masses that Rome also ruled over. Many early Church fathers belonged to the 'mysteries' - essentially mystery schools or semi-secret societies that provided the bureaucrats for the empire, very similar to Freemasonry within the British Empire, Skull and Bones in America, the Eleusinian mysteries in Greece or the various Sufi orders during the Islamic golden age.

Whatever the absolute truth behind what happened to Jesus will probably never be known, but I think we can compare it somewhat to Che Guevara, who'd probably laugh at the amount of clothing 'capitalist' America has been able to sell with his face on them.
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06-30-2011, 01:03 AM,
#9
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
There is no history he was a myth....made up, a fairytale....
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06-30-2011, 01:56 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-30-2011, 01:58 AM by R.R.)
#10
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
The problem with the likes of Acharya S, and yourself Azrael, is that you are not free from bias when analysing Christianity. The symbolism in your avatar and your name suggests you have sympathies with groups that dislike Christianity mainly because Christianity has been abusive of what you have decided is truth. You are merely doing the same as the religious bigots - namely discrediting a religion in order to elevate your own belief system.

Acharya S has done some good work, but having heard her on radio shows, she has her own agenda that drives her to do what she does - and it is not a persuit of truth.

Generally what I have found is that people who prefer more occult spiritual theories have a near hatred of Christianity. I sit back and laugh at the absurdity of the claims both groups make, but of course I could be wrong.

How about you tell us where your sympathies lie before we continue. What difference does it make to non-Christians (such as myself) whether Jesus existed in any incarnation (God-man, real human, myth. fairytail, non-existent etc)?

I ask because I suspect you don't apply the same level of enquiry elsewhere and if that is true, I can only ask why is that the case too.

Basically broaden your horizons. You claimed in your introduction that you spent 99.9% of your time on David Icke's forum in the religion section. Please don't bring the religious nonsense here.

We encourage debate and enquiry but not if it has an ulterior motive to elevate another religious system in its place.
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06-30-2011, 10:23 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-30-2011, 10:30 AM by Azrael.)
#11
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
(06-30-2011, 01:56 AM)R.R Wrote: The problem with the likes of Acharya S, and yourself Azrael, is that you are not free from bias when analysing Christianity. The symbolism in your avatar and your name suggests you have sympathies with groups that dislike Christianity mainly because Christianity has been abusive of what you have decided is truth. You are merely doing the same as the religious bigots - namely discrediting a religion in order to elevate your own belief system.

Acharya S has done some good work, but having heard her on radio shows, she has her own agenda that drives her to do what she does - and it is not a persuit of truth.

Generally what I have found is that people who prefer more occult spiritual theories have a near hatred of Christianity. I sit back and laugh at the absurdity of the claims both groups make, but of course I could be wrong.

How about you tell us where your sympathies lie before we continue. What difference does it make to non-Christians (such as myself) whether Jesus existed in any incarnation (God-man, real human, myth. fairytail, non-existent etc)?

I ask because I suspect you don't apply the same level of enquiry elsewhere and if that is true, I can only ask why is that the case too.

Basically broaden your horizons. You claimed in your introduction that you spent 99.9% of your time on David Icke's forum in the religion section. Please don't bring the religious nonsense here.

We encourage debate and enquiry but not if it has an ulterior motive to elevate another religious system in its place.

Quote:The problem with the likes of Acharya S, and yourself Azrael, is that you are not free from bias when analysing Christianity.

Biased! You are obviously another one of those blinded by the lies of this religion.

Quote:We encourage debate and enquiry but not if it has an ulterior motive to elevate another religious system in its place.

Not elevating any religion I quite frankly despise it all. And looking at your user name I do not see moderator or admin next to it so who are you to be telling me this?

Quote:Basically broaden your horizons. You claimed in your introduction that you spent 99.9% of your time on David Icke's forum in the religion section. Please don't bring the religious nonsense here.

This is nothing more than an attempt to road block a debate. If you do not want to discuss religion then delete this forum why do you have it to start with? Typical derail and detraction tactic.

Quote:Generally what I have found is that people who prefer more occult spiritual theories have a near hatred of Christianity. I sit back and laugh at the absurdity of the claims both groups make, but of course I could be wrong.

Christianity brought the hatred on itself and with the invention of thiings like the internet many of it's lies and myths have been brought to light. I see your quick to judge you must be christian as well. And from the response you obviously have no evidence that a myth called jesus ever lived.

So I ask again, do you want to discuss and debate religion? Its odd how conspiracy theorists are quick to question everything but will accept 1600 years worth of lies without question...............LOL

Anyway if you so choose to live life with blinders on then that is up to you there are to many other forums out there that are willing to discuss religion of all types without suppressing opinions.
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06-30-2011, 11:29 AM,
#12
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
@Azrael, you haven't been here long enough to warrent me even asking why, the risks are simply that your trolling, so I will just say, tone down on the personal stuff. To presume things about an individual based on your views isn't the way to go about debating. An example or two would be lines such as:

Quote:This is nothing more than an attempt to road block a debate.
A judgement, when you don't actually know this.

Quote:I see your quick to judge you must be christian as well

Quote:Its odd how conspiracy theorists are quick to question everything but will accept 1600 years worth of lies without question...............
You are fast showing yourself to be a little biggoted as well as biased. You just lumped a loads of people here into one category, funnily, you are doing such in a thread with two of the most polite members posting. I'd suggest acting like you are no better, higher or more intelligent than anyone here, in a way that shows you know we are all equal.

Quote:Anyway if you so choose to live life with blinders on then that is up to you there are to many other forums out there that are willing to discuss religion of all types without suppressing opinions.
Please don't try adding total BS to the conversation. Nothing has been suppressed, you words are there for all to see and read, and you can continue posting in such a way.

Ensure you are familiar with the site rules (just in case you later shout "I didn't know that").
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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06-30-2011, 12:22 PM,
#13
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Not going to bandy words. Sorry to the OP for taking this off course my apologies......
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06-30-2011, 01:23 PM,
#14
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
(06-27-2011, 12:56 PM)Dunamis Wrote: Cracks me up sometimes. What do people expect from a autocratic governmental-style institution set up by men? Name one such institution that's done any good?
Planned Parenthood
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06-30-2011, 05:01 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-30-2011, 05:51 PM by R.R.)
#15
RE: Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?
(06-30-2011, 01:23 PM)psilocybin Wrote:
(06-27-2011, 12:56 PM)Dunamis Wrote: Cracks me up sometimes. What do people expect from a autocratic governmental-style institution set up by men? Name one such institution that's done any good?
Planned Parenthood

[Image: gggi.jpg]
Azrael Wrote:Biased! You are obviously another one of those blinded by the lies of this religion.

How is it obvious?

What do you know about me and my research and beliefs? Do your background check, here's a few quotes of mine from other posts:

Quote:Platonic thinking has generally been in the domain of societal elites throughout the Christian and Islamic eras. In a way it is the esoteric teachings in contrast to organised religious exoteric teachings for the public.

http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=35849&pid=204645#pid204645

To break that down, Christianity was an exoteric religion for the masses, a tool of social control. Moaning about Christianity is like moaning about the knife and attaching no blame to the wielder in a murder investigation. Christianity was a weapon but don't let that blind you to who was using that weapon. You have not come across any revelation in pointing out what Christianity has done, or more accurately, what has been done in its name.

Here is a discussion on part of Sigmund Freud's essay 'Civilization and its Discontents' acknowledging the role of Christianity and imperialism.

Quote:Freud goes on to speculate that although he isn't sure when such an attitude of hostility to civilization began, he is sure that this hostility was around when 'Christendom' conquered the 'heathen religions' and continued with the 'voyages of discovery' that 'led to contact with primitive peoples and races'. He observes that 'Christian doctrine' put a 'low estimation upon earthly life' which led to Europeans believing that the 'simple, happy life with few wants' of the primitive peoples was something that these visitors saw as unattainable with regards to their own sociology.

http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=35849&pid=215038#pid215038

All religions have been used as tools of social control, here is a discussion of Hinduism and how people started to think for themselves with regards to reincarnation - an earlier method of control.

Quote:Basically similar stuff to Vatican controlled Europe where the priests dictated what was acceptable to god and thus controlled society through fear and ignorance. In Indian society, existing social conditions were explained away as being punishment or reward for conduct in a previous life (karma), conduct dictated by following dharma. In this way their society was 'just' (which is something that will be discussed later). It was essentially a clever piece of mind-control for the poorer people would gladly conform to dharma in an attempt to have a better life in a future incarnation, all the while dharma was in fact dictated by the priests. They thus set acceptable (to them) social manners and customs which meant they effectively ruled society. It worked for a while but reincarnation also carried with it seeds of rebellion, Ketkar shares a story:

'Shakara, the king's brother-in-law,
asked his slave to kill the damsel
Vasantasena. The slave refused the
order flatly in the following words: 'Beat
me if you will. Kill me if you will. I cannot
do what ought not to be done. Fate has
already punished me with servitude, for
the misdeeds of a former life, and I will
not incur the penalty of being born again
a slave.'
P.115


Once the masses realised the rulers were giving them erroneous information (not necessarily in India) they would inevitably either revolt or embark upon behaviour that was more likely to fulfill their hopes of improved life. Either way the authority of the priesthood would be undermined. Thus we see in the pagan worlds (which shared most of its basic tenets with Hinduism) the elimination of old religions which worked as social manipulators to be replaced by religions which were infact grown out of the old but were pretty clear that reincarnation wasn't true - the monotheistic faiths which have a long history of destroying polytheistic faiths. Christianitys' pagan roots are generally not in doubt and Christianity (and Judaism) had early but later removed beliefs in reincarnation.

http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=35849&pid=216618#pid216618

Essentially, once ideas of reincarnation were reinterpreted by the labouring/slave classes of India and the Brahmin priesthoods began to lose control, reforms would begin to take place removing reincarnation and changing it eventually to a one off life on Earth followed by a judgment and subsequent entry into heaven or hell. At this point I should make it clear that there was an international priesthood in operation intertwined with the banking houses of the ancient world, religion 'approving' everybody's societal position such as the Hindu caste system or the later alliance between monarchy and the Church. The beliefs or preaching are not really of concern, rather the social conditions are, and Christianity merely continued an existing form of tyranny - it did nothing new in that regard. The same priesthoods merely modified a few core beliefs for the masses but those masses were still labouring to keep the priests in a position of leisure and luxury. With regards to Hinduism, Indians have always had problems with the religion - it was oppressive afterall, but being a resource rich land meant that the international priesthood had to maintain a monopoly on its abundant riches and various rulers bringing with them different religions were used to keep the masses working in India. Hinduism always returned once the masses had enough of the replacement religions. More on this priesthood can be read about here.

Continuing:

Quote:For instance there hasn't really been a 'capitalist' society or a truly 'socialist' one or a 'Christian', 'Communist', 'Islamic' or any other type of society except for one of small minorities manipulating larger groups of people. Labels deceive. All civilised societies are created out of some external threat (real or imagined) headed by an organized yet dominant minority who use the labour of their subjects to do the tasks they don't want to do and thus worker morale needs to be managed to avoid legitimate revolution - the creation of a national mythology or religion is necessary

http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=35849&pid=220881#pid220881

This is a brief model you can apply to the vast majority of societies, especially the civilizations that take up most space in history books.

The point here is, and was alluded to in the first post, was broadening your horizons puts everything into perspective. Whether Jesus existed or not (I happen to believe that he did or that there was a social movement that became Christianity, based upon the fact that imperialist nations occupying other countries are susceptible to such movements arising - and also because many other religions spring up as social movements against oppressive foreigners/religions - examples being Rastafari, Sikhism and Buddhism where the followers deify the founders who generally spoke out against corruption in high places) is irrelevant for myself in a religious aspect because I am not a Christian and even if I was, the teachings should be more important than his existence. In terms of truth however, one must seperate the wheat from the chaff and I am familiar with the various schools of thought regarding Jesus and that is my conclusion although I have already acknowledged that the absolute truth of the matter will probably never be known.

Other interesting things to take onboard are the atheist rants on religion and many of them have given no credence to the Christ myth hypothesis, which is quite revealing. Also the vitriolic descriptions of Christ in the Jewish Talmud would suggest a person was around annoying the Jewish priests at the time.

Here is a short review of a book used by Christ myth proponent Jordan Maxwell, with an interesting take on things that is rarely discussed:

http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=35849&pid=210431#pid210431

Here is some more stuff for you if you still think I'm blinded by that religion:

Quote:Zeus - Jupiter - Jove - Jehovah - Yahweh

Head honchos of their religions belonging to their own trinities (and bearded whitemen), which is basically the concept of Hegels dialectic observation/interpretation of history, the clash creates the new - all mainstream religions spring from the same source. Jehovahs trinity leads to Christianity but its happened many times in the past too. Judaism - deism of Jew-piter. Piter/Patar (latin), Pitar (Sanskrit) meaning father. Sanskrit - Hindus,Aryans and Trinities oh my! Blue bloods? How about blue skin which symbolises the same concept - very pale skin exposing the veins hence blue blood - royalty, caste system, eugenics and Hindu gods.

http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=38166&pid=213968#pid213968

Quote:Monotheism is a strange one because when you look into it most traditions, irrespective of the number of deities they worshipped, always had one who was at the top so to speak, while in monotheistic traditions the one at the top is acknowledged as such but that doesn't stop adherents attaching importance and idolising other figures within the pantheon such as veneration or temples for the Virgin Mary or the numerous Saints in Catholicism or the prophets in Judaism and Islam. They in effect are the same, its a subtle name change which means nothing in reality or practice. It is not surprising due to Judaisms' early polytheism and subsequent henotheism eventually becoming monotheism where some very interesting research has been conducted that suggests there is a link between Akhenaton and Moses either being the same character or belonging to the same court. Religious reform was nothing new in ancient Egypt, the gods and their positions were always changed depending on which cult held local power. Each cult was responsible for a different social activity conforming to a division of labour managerial kind of way - one god (represented on Earth by the priests of their cult) was in charge of writing, another beer, another marriage and so on, they were basically the different bureaucratic sectors of the government or pharaohs, who himself was representative of the highest god in the religious pantheon, although he was really the public figurehead of a group, the highest priesthood, the pharaoh as his name suggests represented the house. This wasn't really too dissimilar in the whole Indo-European world and you can find it more in Rome where different cults were given to different occupations such as Mithraism to the soldiers and even in India where the many castes (castes are intertwined with occupation) worship different gods within the Hindu pantheon while acknowledging the superiority of Brahma. You can go as far back as Sumer to see the same thing going on there with their priest-kings who represented a particular deity in the various city-states. So polytheism was no stranger to these tactics.

http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=38166&pid=215329#pid215329

Forget the last 1600 years try the last 6000 at least. Broaden your horizons.

Azrael Wrote:Not elevating any religion I quite frankly despise it all. And looking at your user name I do not see moderator or admin next to it so who are you to be telling me this?

Well I see 'Angel of Death' next to your name so you can hardly talk. Anyway if you 'despise it all' then bash the rest aswell. Linking to Acharya S and berating Christianity suggests you have Christianity at the top of your list. I am telling you 'this' based on arguing with many people like you who have decided to take a strong position on something which, as a consequence, means you have simultaneously closed your mind to opposing ideas/research which eventually leads you to accept other themes cleverly embedded within the thought process of the debunking system - although you will interpret that as making your own decisions when you merely travelled a carefully laid out road for you. So I'll repeat it again we encourage debate and enquiry but not if it has an ulterior motive to elevate another religious system in its place. 'Azrael' is hardly a value free term in context of debating the existence of Jesus now is it? Neither is 'Acharya' for that matter. Neither are inverted pentagrams. But I'll accept you simply like the name and the choice of it has nothing to do with you disliking Christianity or thinking that you are an angel of death.

Azrael Wrote:Typical derail and detraction tactic.

What, like not answering questions?

R.R Wrote:How about you tell us where your sympathies lie before we continue. What difference does it make to non-Christians (such as myself) whether Jesus existed in any incarnation (God-man, real human, myth. fairytail, non-existent etc)?

I ask because I suspect you don't apply the same level of enquiry elsewhere and if that is true, I can only ask why is that the case too.

While I advocate each person is entitled to their own private spiritual beliefs, when it comes to questioning the validity of others, the questioner should state their own angle. So Azrael, are you an atheist, a spiritualist, a muslim? What difference does it make for people like me who (while taking a philosophical interest in religious claims but don't go as far as practicing any religion) if it is shown that Christ did or did not exist and I'll add, what difference does it make to you and your own psyche? And will you then go on to question the existence of Satan, Krishna, Enki, Quetzlcoatl, Guru Nanak and even Azrael?

Azrael Wrote:Christianity brought the hatred on itself and with the invention of thiings like the internet many of it's lies and myths have been brought to light.

Utter bullshit right there, especially when the Christ-myth hypothesis dates to at least the 1800's, evolutionists were debating Christians since the mid-to-late 1800's, the Islamic empire wrote stuff against them, the Protestants themselves questioned and exposed the Vatican, the various Gnostic sects were doing the same throughout history, Christian crimes were chronicled even in the America's and never mind the feminist authors blaming Christianity for patriarchy all prior to the internet. The debate is nothing new. Broaden your horizons.

Azrael Wrote:I see your quick to judge you must be christian as well.

Yes, everything I have written above, quoted from much earlier posts, suggests I'm really a Christian. Looks like judging is also a part of your repertoire, you're just not very quick. Nor are you very good at it. I don't blame you though, following David Icke is hardly good for intellectual acumen.

Azrael Wrote:And from the response you obviously have no evidence that a myth called jesus ever lived.

And the best you can come up with to 'prove' the opposite is Acharya S????? Where is your own studying and documentation? I think I've given a reasonable summation of my interpretation of the different evidence available. If you have truly researched all sides of the issue you'll know which bits I accept and reject. But anyway I do not believe in the more supernatural things attributed to Jesus hence I have no reason to 'prove the myth'. There are no shortage of scholars, many with better credentials than someone who doesn't use her real name and do not resort to religious pseudonyms, who have concluded that there was an historical Jesus. That does not mean you have to then accept salvation is only through him or that he walked on water any more than accepting Mohammed really was in contact with the angel Gabriel or the Sikh gurus were enlightened or the various shamans interpret their hallucinations as some real message from the spirit world. Proving one aspect does not necessarily prove another, but essentially the likes of Acharya S do not even want to grant the most meagre of claims due to the inevitable snowball effect.

Azrael Wrote:So I ask again, do you want to discuss and debate religion? Its odd how conspiracy theorists are quick to question everything but will accept 1600 years worth of lies without question

For a guy that moans about others being quick to judge......takes one to know one I guess. Besides you can only 'ask again' if you've asked at least once and you've never asked for a religious debate. But if you want one you can have one, especially if your primary source material is Acharya S and you so far have only concentrated on Christianity - I'll quickly judge you have little knowledge of what you are talking about and are merely a parrot - analogous to the very religious minds you think you are separate from. Sometimes you become what you fight.....

Azrael Wrote:Anyway if you so choose to live life with blinders on then that is up to you there are to many other forums out there that are willing to discuss religion of all types without suppressing opinions.

Yes I live life with the blinders on. Do your background check boy, I have taken on various topics and in the totality of humanity's situation, I can assure you religion remains a very convenient distraction. Go to 'the other forums' and go and happily debate the same things again and again, debates which are there for all to see, never even reach a conclusion anyway. Bring something new to the table instead of concentrating on a small aspect of David Icke's lunatic world.
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