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Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
03-18-2011, 05:15 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-18-2011, 05:18 PM by hubbabubba.)
#1
Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
Concen seems to be lacking a thread for discussion about the Fukushima nuclear catastrophe so I'm starting one here, hopefully in the right forum.

So what do you think, is this a new 8 on the International Nuclear Event Scale? That would indicate that this accident is ten times the Tjernobyl accident.

I've only been listening to Alex Jones and What Really Happened, but they seem pretty sure that this is very very serious. Look at this report. We have three damaged cores out of control with possible containment breaches. To get to them and begin working on them they first have to take care of three spent fuel pools with water boiling away and possibly fires (placed above the reactor cores?). Then we have the fourth pool at reactor 4. Then the pools at 5 & 6 with temps increasing. It looks like a war zone and workers are having difficulties to even enter the area.

Anyone have any figures on how many and what type of spent fuel rods are in each pool?

Man, this is bad, really bad. I am crying for humanity. Take a look at the site with the report I posted above. Look at the green earth and blue sky and the winter landscape. Read the text: "Nuclear power, with No Emissions of Carbon Dioxide, Contributes to the Prevention of Global Warming." So really, right now, what seems more dangerous to humanity, Carbon Dioxide or Nuclear Fallout?
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03-18-2011, 06:20 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-18-2011, 06:21 PM by rsol.)
#2
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
well carbon dioxide is only a danger to humans in concentration just the same as radio activity. however radioactivity can only travel so far and has no real impact on the planetary ecosystem as a whole.

If anything we should remember there are about 200 guys out there not just risking their lives but literally GIVING their lives to stop this. They will probably not see the next decade. No one even knows their names yet.

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03-18-2011, 07:28 PM,
#3
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
(03-18-2011, 06:20 PM)rsol Wrote: well carbon dioxide is only a danger to humans in concentration just the same as radio activity. however radioactivity can only travel so far and has no real impact on the planetary ecosystem as a whole.

Well, we'll see what impact this will have on large parts of the ecosystem.

Quote:If anything we should remember there are about 200 guys out there not just risking their lives but literally GIVING their lives to stop this. They will probably not see the next decade. No one even knows their names yet.

Maybe that's a question each of us should ask. If I support nuclear power, am I willing to sacrifice my life in case of an accident?

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03-18-2011, 10:42 PM,
#4
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
Maybe you should not listen to Alex Jones right now Wink when he believes his own fear mongering he gets exponentially worse, like a kid on a sugar rush having a breakdown because his parents just took away the bowl of candy because he was already getting out of control. If you do, atleast divide everything he says by around 8 times and there you probably have reality.
I dont know where this is going, usually reality lies somewhere between what the doom and gloomers say and the official version, Japan seems to have a long history of covering up nuclear incidents so would not trust their authorities too much and of course not the power companys statements.

I think it can get really really bad in Japan if the situation gets worse. Just think about their agriculture and fishing...this situation is horrible, and it must really suck to live on an island in cases like this, i feel claustrophobic just thinking about it.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
- The Gospel of Thomas

I think I am, therefore I am, i think...
- George Carlin
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03-18-2011, 11:32 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-18-2011, 11:39 PM by hubbabubba.)
#5
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
(03-18-2011, 10:42 PM)Telecaster72 Wrote: Maybe you should not listen to Alex Jones right now Wink

That's kinda why I started this thread, to get some clues to what other alt sources and hosts are saying.

Quote:I dont know where this is going, usually reality lies somewhere between what the doom and gloomers say and the official version, Japan seems to have a long history of covering up nuclear incidents so would not trust their authorities too much and of course not the power companys statements.

Just check the report above and think for yourself. I guess you don't have to be a nuclear scientist to figure that this is bigger than Chernobyl.

Quote:I think it can get really really bad in Japan if the situation gets worse. Just think about their agriculture and fishing...this situation is horrible, and it must really suck to live on an island in cases like this, i feel claustrophobic just thinking about it.

Yes, yes, it truly is. I'm afraid the whole world, on many different layers, will feel the long term effects of this. I don't know if this can get anymore worse. You have a nuclear power station complex with six reactors, with three reactors going into uncontrolled melt-down, with breaches, six pools with spent fuel from up to 40 years ago, with super dangerous MOX fuel in the mix, water temps increasing, water levels decreasing, fires raging, multiple explosions, radiation that makes it almost impossible to enter the site, and the media is saying it's impossible that this is worse than Chernobyl!?! No more picking mushrooms in Japan, that's for sure!

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03-19-2011, 02:20 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-19-2011, 02:26 AM by Telecaster72.)
#6
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
Yep, i cant make any valid conclusions from all this concerning how serious it is, the chart looks like really bad news, i could try to make an educated guess, but i am too lost when it comes to the nuclear sciences and systems to do so.

Putting everything together in a big pile makes it look like a text book worst case scenario.

In order to make something out of this we would need to break down every event and analyze it in comparizon to the others.
Breaches, where? In critical places or not? Which pools are in any danger and what events has to occur for something to happen in each of the pools? What exactly did the explosions destroy and what effect does that have on the chain of events, past and future?
How would radiation spread, and what kind, if complete meltdown occured from every reactor in question, how are they encapsulated, how severe and where is the encapsulation damaged and how does that effect leakage?
What damage can the fires make? At what rate is the reaction slowing down?
What is being done manually right now in there by the elder citizens (samurai heart) going inside to work? Will it help?

Basically, what are the necessary events that has to happen and in what order for it to really hit the fan, and what are the possibilities to break that chain of events?

If the worst case scenario (whatever that is) would occur, would the radiation compare to the nuclear tests that were done during the cold war? Quite a lot of radiation was released into the atmosphere back then and we are still (fairly) ok now...

It sounds bad but exactly how bad?

In any case this is disaster for the japanese people and tragic beyond comprehension.

And as for the scale, i have no idea.
If i ask my emotions they say 10, if i ask my analytical self it says l: data overload.processing power insufficient.more data needed. data overload.processing power insufficient.more data needed :ll (rinse and repeat)

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
- The Gospel of Thomas

I think I am, therefore I am, i think...
- George Carlin
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03-19-2011, 04:15 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-19-2011, 04:24 AM by springhawk.)
#7
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
(03-18-2011, 05:15 PM)hubbabubba Wrote: So what do you think, is this a new 8 on the International Nuclear Event Scale? That would indicate that this accident is ten times the Tjernobyl accident.

Most people know about the Richter scale. Basically, it measures
the amount of energy an earthquake releases.

But there are other scales used to measure earthquakes.

The Mercalli scale uses 12 levels measures damage and the
effects of an earthquake.

Level 1 is Instrumental You can't feel the quake or
see any visible effects. This does not mean the quake
was weak.

Deep focus quakes are earthquakes that occur deeper
than 300 KM below the earth surface. Some have
exceeded 7 on the Richter Scale. However, we would not
known they occurred if weren't measured on a
seismograph somewhere Thus, they are classified as
instrumental earthquakes.

Level 12 is Cataclysmic.

There is no cataclysmic accident on the International
Nuclear Event Scale.

I say yes, they should add at least one more
classification to the scale.

However, the Wikipedia article you linked to has
incomplete definitions. You can get the actual definitions
from the . . .

THE INTERNATIONAL NUCLEAR AND RADIOLOGICAL EVENT
SCALE USER’S MANUAL


My brief read through revealed no need to add another
level for what happened in Japan.

My Psychiatrist Committed Suicide

"I'm going to tell you something you won't believe."
David Vincent
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03-19-2011, 09:03 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-19-2011, 09:49 AM by hubbabubba.)
#8
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
(03-19-2011, 02:20 AM)Telecaster72 Wrote: Yep, i cant make any valid conclusions from all this concerning how serious it is, the chart looks like really bad news, i could try to make an educated guess, but i am too lost when it comes to the nuclear sciences and systems to do so.

Yes, you have the feeling you need to have experts to think for you? I know the feeling. I have been following MSM reporting with one eye open and I can say it's extremely lacking facts, research, sincerity, logic/rational thinking. It leaves the mind very foggy indeed.

So, wanting to know the worst case scenario, I started listening to Alex Jones. There I got some details and I guess more truth than from MSM. So I started looking up some stuff myself and started realizing how big this is. In a way I would say I dispelled the MSM obfuscation spell. I am no longer waiting for experts or the MSM to tell me how bad it is.

The MSM is actually pushing that radiation isn't that bad. It might even be beneficial. Yea, right!

Quote:Putting everything together in a big pile makes it look like a text book worst case scenario.

Yea, and for me it took AJ and "What really happened" to gather the energy to try to put everything together.

Quote:In order to make something out of this we would need to break down every event and analyze it in comparizon to the others.

That's the rational analytical left brain talking. Say something is about to kill you, it would be wise to use a balanced mind to quickly get out of the way.

Quote:Breaches, where?

Yes, you have many questions, but is the MSM even trying to answer them? Tens of years of spent fuel rods, risking to burn or meltdown!?! How many are there in the pools and what kind? These are radiating, smoking and maybe burning right now, so the question is very relevant.

Quote:Basically, what are the necessary events that has to happen and in what order for it to really hit the fan, and what are the possibilities to break that chain of events?

It already has happened in the wrong order!

Quote:we are still (fairly) ok now...

We shouldn't be fairly ok, we should be supa nice man! If fairly ok only we are, and getting worse it is, on the wrong path we are, hmmh?

Quote:If i ask my emotions they say 10, if i ask my analytical self it says l: data overload.processing power insufficient.more data needed. data overload.processing power insufficient.more data needed :ll (rinse and repeat)

Yes, and you know why and that you are supposed to react that way, yes? So you are waiting for reports of the Ines scale instead of researching yourself.

I'm not critizing you for that, I was there, most people are, as time to think for modern man sadly is very restricted. I haven't done any serious research myself, that's why I started this thread. To get input from other people doing some research for themselves.


(03-19-2011, 04:15 AM)springhawk Wrote: My brief read through revealed no need to add another level for what happened in Japan.

"The 1986 accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant is rated at Level 7 on INES. It had widespread impact on people and the environment."

I think it's Level 7 right now and might be ten times worse, which would give it a Level of 8.

Update: The new report says that Daini station is Level 3 Ines.
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03-19-2011, 01:11 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-19-2011, 01:17 PM by rsol.)
#9
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
in most cases we never really know until the (radioactive) dust settles.

they are being further hampered by the fact that lvl 5-7 quakes are kicking up today(19th). its far from over for these guys. they may have to just encase the whole thing in concrete and just make the whole area a no go.
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03-19-2011, 01:25 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-19-2011, 01:28 PM by hubbabubba.)
#10
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
It's utter madness!

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

And they expect to be using this deadly technology and storing it's waste in timespans of 100.000 years? It's ridicilous!

Everyone with a connection with nature, gaia or earth or whatever you want to call it will feel as a part of themselves are dying when yet another of earth's spaces are becoming a no go zone.
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03-20-2011, 01:40 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-20-2011, 01:43 AM by hubbabubba.)
#11
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
Of course there were people warning of this: http://vimeo.com/10476248

Helen Caldicott talks about how dangerous the spent fuel rods are and that they are being stored above the core without encasing. This means that Alex Jones might be right about the rods being thrown all over the place in the explosion. She also talks about the industry as such.

Some links about type and amount of spent fuel rods at Fukoshima. http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-amount-of-radioactive-fuel-at-fukushima-dwarfs-chernobyl.html
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03-20-2011, 10:21 AM,
#12
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?

Ibaraki prefecture
http://www.pref.ibaraki.jp/bukyoku/seikan/kokuko/en/

Japanese prefectures
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~tc9w-ball/useful/PrefLinks.htm
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03-20-2011, 12:01 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-20-2011, 12:05 PM by Telecaster72.)
#13
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
Quote:Yes, you have the feeling you need to have experts to think for you?
I can not find where i stated that. Or actually yes, if i want to research something, i do want material written by people who knows what they are talking about, like the chart you linked to, made by "experts".
I suspected that you were experiencing a right brain takeover with a fight of flight emotional response triggered by AJ once again saying the end is near, and tried to talk you down man Wink

Quote:That's the rational analytical left brain talking. Say something is about to kill you, it would be wise to use a balanced mind to quickly get out of the way.
True, but the amount of danger has to be estimated also, a rabbit stays alive by thinking eveything is a 10 on the danger scale. The question is is that a balanced way to live? Am i an escapist? Maybe.
And in this case how do we quickly get out of the way?
Reading the rest of your post(s) shows me that you have put alot of time and research into the nuclear event in japan and i value your conclusions and insight.
Do not take my post as an attempt to belittle your knowledge in this case.

Quote:Yes, you have many questions, but is the MSM even trying to answer them? Tens of years of spent fuel rods, risking to burn or meltdown!?! How many are there in the pools and what kind? These are radiating, smoking and maybe burning right now, so the question is very relevant.
I dont hold much value to MSN answers and treasure the efforts to bring clarity in this disaster made by independent researchers.

Quote:We shouldn't be fairly ok, we should be supa nice man! If fairly ok only we are, and getting worse it is, on the wrong path we are, hmmh?
Agreed.

Quote:Yes, and you know why and that you are supposed to react that way, yes? So you are waiting for reports of the Ines scale instead of researching yourself.
I think that is a pretty obvious and common reaction, and the only thing i can do about it, is to, like you said, research it for myself to bring clarity into what is going on.
In this case right brain thinking has no relevance, my feelings about it can not help me so that part of the reaction has to be removed, since it has no use except weakening me. Radiation does not care about my emotions Wink
This is a situation where only facts,logic and reason are useful.

A totally different question, the question about the to be or not to be on nuclear power, there we can let the right brain in again because there it serves a purpose.


"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
- The Gospel of Thomas

I think I am, therefore I am, i think...
- George Carlin
Reply
03-20-2011, 02:49 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-20-2011, 04:33 PM by hubbabubba.)
#14
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
Dr Helen Caldicott thinks the Fukushima accident might be 30+ times the chernobyl accident.

Dr Helen Caldicott on Russia Today.

"The death of a nuclear reactor has a beginning; the world is watching this unfold now on the coast of Japan. But it doesn’t have an end."

Lessons From Chernobyl for Japan

The consequences of Chernobyl might have been downplayed according to this report.

Quote:I can not find where i stated that. Or actually yes, if i want to research something, i do want material written by people who knows what they are talking about, like the chart you linked to, made by "experts".

You said: "but i am too lost when it comes to the nuclear sciences and systems to do so." So if someone is firing a plasma gun at you, you don't take cover because you don't know how it works? But, yes I agree, you look for the best info/facts you can find and then you draw your own conclusions by researching the subject some more.

Quote:I suspected that you were experiencing a right brain takeover with a fight of flight emotional response triggered by AJ once again saying the end is near, and tried to talk you down man Wink

I suspected you were but at the same time I noticed that you were under an obfuscation spell cast by the MSM. So I tried to dispel it for you! Smile

Quote:True, but the amount of danger has to be estimated also..

That's what I am trying to estimate here, hence the thread.

Quote:Am i an escapist? Maybe.

I'm not talking about you personally, more of the common man. We don't take any time for real contemplation and the little time we use for research is used to read info from wrong sources.

Quote:Reading the rest of your post(s) shows me that you have put alot of time and research into the nuclear event in japan and i value your conclusions and insight.

I have not put any vast amount of time into this, I know fairly little about the dangers of nuclear meltdowns. But I love life, nature and the animals and beauty, especially the beauty of Japan, and each new no go zone because of the stupidity (or whatever is the driving force behind it) of the cabal that be feels like another part of me dying. You know, you could have been born Japanese in the Fukushima area, in fact, if you have a holistic worldview you ARE that japanese person, that japanese animal and that japanese tree.

Quote:Do not take my post as an attempt to belittle your knowledge in this case.

Ok, but it isn't my knowledge. I just found it. I don't know if it is true. After listening to Helen Caldicott's description of the nuclear process I learned some new things pointing to the madness of it all. Listen to her talks at youtube or take a look at http://www.psr.org/

Quote:I dont hold much value to MSN answers and treasure the efforts to bring clarity in this disaster made by independent researchers.

Yes, yes, and I was hoping for some more input here, besides my own from Alex Jones and Caldicott.

Quote:We shouldn't be fairly ok, we should be supa nice man! If fairly ok only we are, and getting worse it is, on the wrong path we are, hmmh?
Agreed.

Caldicott seems to be of the opinion (not sure yet) that most cancers are because of ingesting small radioactive particles going around the ecosystem, that humanity has released some way or another, plutonium being one of the most dangerous. It's like the depleted uranium that's going to kill in the middle east for hundreds? of years to come.

Quote:In this case right brain thinking has no relevance, my feelings about it can not help me so that part of the reaction has to be removed, since it has no use except weakening me. Radiation does not care about my emotions Wink This is a situation where only facts,logic and reason are useful.

If you had no feelings at all you wouldn't act upon your facts, except your actions because of your reptile brain. It's this kind of ping pong match we are trying to avoid here. The experts are feeding the people the facts and the people act with their reptile brain, that's the fear based mind control system in action. What's missing is the balanced mind.

Quote:A totally different question, the question about the to be or not to be on nuclear power, there we can let the right brain in again because there it serves a purpose.

It always serves a purpuse, it should never be left out. It should be balanced with the left brain at all times.

Ok, so now they are connecting the power cable to the rubble? I wonder, will they find the ON switch in time? And how timely that the new war in Lybia is starting right now! Watch how this war becomes first priority in the news media, instead of the worlds biggest nuclear accident.

Ann Coulter Says Radiation Is Good For You
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03-20-2011, 04:16 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-20-2011, 05:14 PM by hubbabubba.)
#15
RE: Time for a new International Nuclear Event Scale?
Some updates from Daily Mail.

Sounds like the Fukushima plant will become a concrete and lead coffin just like Chernobyl. This coffin will have to be attended to into eternity, and it will grow enormous with time as the radiation breaks down the old layers. The question is how many uncontrolled meltdowns there are that have to be buried. Will there be multiple coffins?

Oh my, this is so bad, and I can't believe how it's downplayed in the media.

Update:
Exposed fuel rods in empty, cracked cooling pool may soon release 130 tons of uranium directly into the environment

U.S. nuclear officials suspect Japanese plant has a dire breach

Becasue of the information blackout it is hard to say how much radiation already has leaked but if this happens it surely is worse than Chernobyl.
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