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Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
05-24-2011, 09:32 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-24-2011, 11:15 AM by JazzRoc.)
#16
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
(05-24-2011, 02:26 AM)icosaface Wrote: I don't attempt to communicate with jazzroc anymore, it claims to be conversant with science but is incapeable of making observations of events taking place daily in plain sight.
Retreat when faced by the enemy. Live to fight another day. Best done when one is incapable of spelling "incapable".
As for the general practice of OBSERVATION, it is in TWO parts.
The first is to SEE, which you can do no better than I.
The second is to UNDERSTAND what you see, which you don't do at all, due to your predisposition to call EDUCATION - "programming", and to call "following your instinctual preconceptions" - "education".
I guess that once you're down THAT hole, you can't back up... Umm

[Image: contrailsfs.jpg]

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05-24-2011, 12:45 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-24-2011, 12:49 PM by Krise.)
#17
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
two planes, same height, one contrail, one chemtrail





another example



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05-24-2011, 01:08 PM,
#18
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
(05-24-2011, 12:45 PM)Krise Wrote: two planes, same height
Yeah, right. LOL. What height was that?



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08-16-2011, 07:15 AM,
#19
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
[Image: 1336148.jpg]
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08-16-2011, 02:33 PM,
#20
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
I love this conversation to be honest, because there seem to mainly be two sides presented here, both at polar opposites...

...so...here comes something different...

Let's just say that there's no such thing as "Chem"trails as such. Let's say, the often cold attitude JazzRoc presents aside, that what's essentially said is actually true...

...they are STILL BLOCKING OUT THE SUNLIGHT OVER MANY, MANY CITIES. My three and a half year old son (even though I had never before mentioned them) started asking about the trails left by planes (as we are in a rural area and no major flight-paths pass over our area) and even he noticed, much like the rubbish dropped by many around our little town, do not belong there and are the result of "naughty people" as my son calls them.

[Image: pict3352.jpg]
06:45 25th April 2011, Snowdonia National Park, as trails begin to drift in from the built up areas such as Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Chester. This only happens when the wind conditions are right, North-East or Easterly winds. Picture by Dunamis

If there are additional chemicals added then they should stop. If not, they should stop, the outcome is the same for me. I don't like man-made hazy days, conspiracy or none.

Has anyone, on either side, ever done air samples of trails??? In my view this would be the only way to end this debate.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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08-16-2011, 07:48 PM,
#21
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
In order for a contrail to form the temperature has to be many degrees below zero. Water freezes in air when the temperature is below zero. The only place the contrail will appear is in the heat trail left by the passing plane and the ice particles won't grow because there isn't any liquid water to condense on them there. These aren't magic bean stock ice crystals.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi


Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
Reply
08-17-2011, 07:46 AM,
#22
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
(08-16-2011, 02:33 PM)Dunamis Wrote: I love this conversation to be honest, because there seem to mainly be two sides presented here, both at polar opposites...

...so...here comes something different...

Let's just say that there's no such thing as "Chem"trails as such. Let's say, the often cold attitude JazzRoc presents aside, that what's essentially said is actually true...

...they are STILL BLOCKING OUT THE SUNLIGHT OVER MANY, MANY CITIES. My three and a half year old son (even though I had never before mentioned them) started asking about the trails left by planes (as we are in a rural area and no major flight-paths pass over our area) and even he noticed, much like the rubbish dropped by many around our little town, do not belong there and are the result of "naughty people" as my son calls them.

[Image: pict3352.jpg]
06:45 25th April 2011, Snowdonia National Park, as trails begin to drift in from the built up areas such as Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Chester. This only happens when the wind conditions are right, North-East or Easterly winds. Picture by Dunamis

If there are additional chemicals added then they should stop. If not, they should stop, the outcome is the same for me. I don't like man-made hazy days, conspiracy or none.

Has anyone, on either side, ever done air samples of trails??? In my view this would be the only way to end this debate.


This documentary might be of interest and on topic:




















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08-17-2011, 10:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 08-17-2011, 10:53 PM by JazzRoc.)
#23
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
(08-16-2011, 07:48 PM)icosaface Wrote: In order for a contrail to form the temperature has to be many degrees below zero.
Contrails are normally seen at airliner cruising altitudes, where the temperature can be as low as -80 C, but they can form at temperatures much higher than that, though still below zero, right down to ground level.
They are made of fine crystals of ICE, formed from the byproduct of kerosine combustion - water.

[Image: combustion.gif]

Quote:Water freezes in air when the temperature is below zero.
That passes.

Quote:The only place the contrail will appear is in the heat trail left by the passing plane
That fails.
The ice crystals FALL out of any original "heat trail" they are in, because THEY HAVE WEIGHT.

Quote:the ice particles won't grow because there isn't any liquid water to condense on them there.
That fails miserably because it is an ignorant and wrong answer out of the top of your head.

There is ALWAYS water in the atmosphere, in diminishing amounts, up to the boundary of the thermosphere. It is present as WATER VAPOR.
The LEAST HUMID place on Earth is the Atacama Desert, with a relative humidity of 7%.
The MOST HUMID place on Earth (cold) is the Arctic, with a relative humidity of ALMOST 100%. HUMID (hot), it's the Persian Gulf.
Relative humidity is defined as the ratio of the partial pressure of water vapor (in a gaseous mixture of air and water vapor) to the saturated vapor pressure of water at a given temperature.
In other words, relative humidity is the amount of water vapor in the air at a specific temperature compared to the maximum water vapor that the air is able to hold without it condensing, at that given temperature.

[Image: atmprofile.gif]

It depends on the PROPORTION of water vapor in the atmosphere as to whether the trail will grow or not. The greater the altitude, and the cooler the atmosphere, then the LESS water is required to reach 100% Relative Humidity.
The region called the TROPOPAUSE, around 25,000 feet up, is the COLDEST region of our lower atmosphere, with a temperature which never rises above -40 C, and which can fall to -80 C.

Once R H has reached around 85%, in practice, a trail will form and persist, as the humidity added by the burnt fuel "tops it up" to the 100%.
If the R H is BENEATH 85%, then a trail will form that slowly evaporates away.
In dry conditions, with a R H below 55%, the trail may not form at all.
If R H is at or above 100% already (supersaturation), then the surrounding atmosphere will be UNSTABLE, and sensitive to the slightest fluctuation which will cause it to precipitate ICE.
In this condition the laid trail will GROW by a factor which can exceed TEN THOUSAND TIMES by weight, as demonstrated by this paper on
CONTRAIL MORPHOLOGY.

Quote:These aren't magic bean stock ice crystals.
By gum, I never thought of THAT.

If ever you wish to throw away your magic coloring book, here are some references for you. Don't say I didn't tell you. Twice.

Appleman, H., 1953: The formation of exhaust contrails by jet aircraft. Bull. Amer. Meteor. Soc., 34, 14–20.
Atlas, D., S. Y. Matrosov, A. J. Heymsfield, M.-D. Chou, and D. B. Wolff, 1995: Radar and radiation properties of ice clouds. J. Appl. Meteor., 34, 2329–2345.
Boin, K. V., and L. Levkov, 1994: Numerical simulation of the lifetime of contrails. Impact of Emissions from Aircraft and Spacecraft upon the Atmosphere, U. Schumann and D. Wurzel, Eds., DLR-Mitteilung, 430-435.
Brown, P. R. A., and P. N. Francis, 1995: Improved measurements of the ice water content in cirrus using a total-water probe. J. Atmos. Oceanic Technol., 12, 410–414.
DeGrand, J. Q., A. M. Carleton, D. J. Travis, and P. J. Lamb, 2000: A satellite-based climatic description of jet aircraft contrails and associations with atmospheric conditions. J. Appl. Meteor., 39, 1434–1459.
Douglas, R. H., K. L. S. Gunn, and J. S. Marshall, 1957: Pattern in the vertical of snow generation. J. Meteor., 14, 95–114.
Duda, D. P., P. Minnis, L. Nguyen, and R. Palikonda, 2004: A case study of the development of contrail clusters over the Great Lakes. J. Atmos. Sci., 61, 1132–1146.
Garber, D. P., P. Minnis, and P. K. Costulis, 2005: A commercial flight track database for upper tropospheric aircraft emission studies over the USA and southern Canada. Meteor. Z., 14, 445–452.
Gierens, K. M., 1996: Numerical simulations of persistent contrails. J. Atmos. Sci., 53, 3333–3348.
E. Jensen, 1998: A numerical study of the contrail-to-cirrus transition. Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 4341–4344.
Gunn, K. L. S., and J. S. Marshall, 1955: The effect of wind shear on falling precipitation. J. Meteor., 12, 339–349.
Heymsfield, A. J., 1975: Cirrus uncinus generating cells and the evolution of cirriform clouds. Part I: Aircraft observations of
the growth of the ice phase. J. Atmos. Sci., 32, 799–808.
R. M. Sabin, 1989: Cirrus crystal nucleation by homogenous freezing of solution droplets. J. Atmos. Sci., 46, 2252–2264.
R. P. Lawson, and G. W. Sachs, 1998: Growth of ice crystals in a precipitating contrail. Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 1335–1338.
S. Matrosov, and B. Baum, 2003: The ice water path–optical depth relationships for cirrus and deep stratiform ice cloud layers. J. Appl. Meteor., 42, 1369–1390.
Jensen, E. J., A. Í. Ackerman, D. E. Stevens, O. B. Toon, and P. Minnis, 1998: Spreading and growth of contrails in a sheared environment. J. Geophys. Res., 103 (D24), 31 557–31 567.
Khvorostyanov, V., and K. Sassen, 1998: Cloud model simulation of a contrail case study: Surface cooling against upper tropospheric warming. Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 2145–2148.
Klett, J. D., 1981: Stable analytical inversion solution for processing lidar returns. Appl. Opt., 20, 211–220.
Knollenberg, R. G., 1972: Measurements of the growth of the ice budget in a persisting contrail. J. Atmos. Sci., 29, 1367–1374.
Konrad, T. G., and J. C. Howard, 1974: Multiple contrail streamers observed by radar. J. Appl. Meteor., 13, 563–572.
Lawson, R. P., A. J. Heymsfield, S. M. Aulenbach, and T. L. Jensen, 1998: Shapes, sizes, and light scattering properties of ice crystals in cirrus and a persistent contrail during SUCCESS. Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 1331–1334.
Lewellen, D. C., and W. S. Lewellen, 2001: The effects of aircraft wake dynamics on contrail development. J. Atmos. Sci., 58, 390–406.
Matrosov, S. Y., A. V. Korolev, and A. J. Heymsfield, 2002: Profiling cloud ice mass and particle characteristic size from Doppler radar measurements. J. Atmos. Oceanic Technol., 19, 1003–1018. Miloshevich, L. M., H. Vömel, A. Paakkunen, A. J. Heymsfield, and S. J. Oltmans, 2001: Characterization and correction of relative humidity measurements from Vaisala RS80-A radiosondes at cold temperatures. J. Atmos. Oceanic Technol., 18, 135–156.
Minnis, P., 2003: Contrails. Encyclopedia of Atmospheric Sciences, J. Holton, J. Pyle, and J. Curry, Eds., Academic Press, 509–520.
D. F. Young, D. P. Gardner, L. Nguyen, W. L. Smith Jr., and R. Palikonda, 1998: Transformation of contrails into cirrus during SUCCESS. Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 1157–1160.
J. K. Ayers, R. Palikonda, and D. Phan, 2004: Contrails, cirrus trends, and climate. J. Climate, 17, 1671–1685.
Palikonda, R., P. Minnis, P. K. Costulis, and D. P. Duda, 2002: Contrail climatology over the USA from MODIS and AVHRR data. Proc. 10th Conf. on Aviation, Range, and Aerospace Meteorology, Portland, OR, Amer. Meteor. Soc., J9–J12.
Ponater, M., S. Marquart, and R. Sausen, 2002: Contrails in a comprehensive global climate model: Parameterization and radiative forcing results. J. Geophys. Res., 107, 4164, doi:10.1029/2001JD000429.
Sassen, K., 1997: Contrail-cirrus and their potential for regional climate change. Bull. Amer. Meteor. Soc., 78, 1885–1903.
Schröder, F., and Coauthors, 2000: On the transition of contrails into cirrus clouds. J. Atmos. Sci., 57, 464–480.
Spinhirne, J. D., W. D. Hart, and D. P. Duda, 1998: Evolution of the morphology and microphysics of contrail cirrus from airborne remote sensing. Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 1153–1156.
Stephens, G. L., and Coauthors, 2002: The CloudSat mission and the EOS constellation: A new dimension of space-based observations of clouds and precipitation. Bull. Amer. Meteor. Soc., 83, 1771–1790.
Uthe, E. E., N. B. Nielsen, and T. E. Osberg, 1998: Airborne scanning lidar observations of aircraft contrails and cirrus clouds during SUCCESS. Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 1339–1342.
Whiteman, D. N., B. Demoz, and Z. Wang, 2004: Subtropical cirrus cloud extinction to backscatter ratios measured by Raman Lidar during CAMEX-3. Geophys. Res. Lett., 31, L12105, doi:10.1029/2004GL020003.
Winker, D. M., J. R. Pelon, and M. P. McCormick, 2003: The CALIPSO mission: Spaceborne lidar for observation of aerosols and clouds. Lidar Remote Sensing for Industry and Environment Monitoring III., U. N. Singh, T. Itabe, and Z. Liu, Eds., International Society for Optical Engineering (SPIE Proceedings Vol. 4893), 1–11.

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08-17-2011, 10:33 PM,
#24
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
So what is the upshot here, water doesn't freeze below zero degrees celsius. Huh?
Not interested in your ministry of truth references and voodoo science.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi


Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
Reply
08-17-2011, 10:56 PM, (This post was last modified: 08-17-2011, 11:11 PM by JazzRoc.)
#25
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
(08-17-2011, 07:46 AM)p4r4 Wrote: This documentary might be of interest and on topic
It is.


(08-17-2011, 10:33 PM)icosaface Wrote: So what is the upshot here, water doesn't freeze below zero degrees celsius. Huh?
Learn to read.

Quote:Not interested in your ministry of truth references and voodoo science.
You're the one with the epithets, the poor reading skills, and the slanted view.
Poor you.


(08-16-2011, 02:33 PM)Dunamis Wrote: Let's say, the often cold attitude JazzRoc presents aside, that what's essentially said is actually true...
I'm doing my best to present truth here. Truth is my only motivation. My experience in this field tells me it's true.
Experience in the way the atmosphere behaves in internal combustion engines. That's from the strictly mathematical and theoretical to conducting experiments in laboratories.

Quote:...they are STILL BLOCKING OUT THE SUNLIGHT OVER MANY, MANY CITIES. My three and a half year old son (even though I had never before mentioned them) started asking about the trails left by planes (as we are in a rural area and no major flight-paths pass over our area) and even he noticed, much like the rubbish dropped by many around our little town, do not belong there and are the result of "naughty people" as my son calls them.
I agree entirely. It will be possible with the next generation of flight computers to route EVERY aircraft individually wrt altitude and heading, allowing them to avoid the humid conditions which generate persistent spreading trails.

Quote:[Image: pict3352.jpg]
06:45 25th April 2011, Snowdonia National Park, as trails begin to drift in from the built up areas such as Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Chester. This only happens when the wind conditions are right, North-East or Easterly winds. Picture by Dunamis
Nice.

Quote:I don't like man-made hazy days
Nor do I. But remember that sometimes the weather does its own thing.

Quote:Has anyone, on either side, ever done air samples of trails??? In my view this would be the only way to end this debate.
Then, for you, it's ended. Read my previous posts.

Reply
08-18-2011, 12:09 AM,
#26
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
Answer the question, does water freeze below zero degrees centigrade.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi


Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
Reply
08-18-2011, 12:36 AM,
#27
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
Having trouble discerning your answer to the question of whether or not water will freeze and become ice crystals below zero degrees C.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi


Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
Reply
08-18-2011, 02:25 PM,
#28
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
This is the way it works. Single water molecules in the liquid phase evaporate and rise into the atmosphere. If they don't encouter any dust particles and create clouds, they rise until they reach the altitude where the temperature is less than zero degrees C. Then they freeze and enter the ice phase. The ice crystals continue to rise into the upper atmosphere.

A jet planes exhaust melts the ice crystals with its exhaust and when the temperature is sufficiently low enough the water, in the liquid phase, and which latched onto the combustion by product particles freezes so quickly that it forms a trail of ice drops that can be seen from many thousands of feet away. The ice drops, which constitute the contrail, are falling and being dispersed by the winds and the contrail ceases to be visible after a short period of time, usually less than a minute.

There is no water in the liquid phase at that altitude because the temperature there is many degrees below zero C and liquid water freezes when these temperatures are reached. Because there is no liquid water the contrail will not grow and spread. Hence the aerosol trails which spread and spread and last for hours are not contrails.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi


Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
Reply
08-20-2011, 11:05 PM, (This post was last modified: 08-23-2011, 12:31 PM by JazzRoc.)
#29
RE: Chemtrails The Changing The Face Of The Planet. Finished article
(08-18-2011, 02:25 PM)icosaface Wrote: This is the way it works.
I wouldn't be so confident if I were you.

Quote:Single water molecules in the liquid phase
Would be VAPOR already, wouldn't they?

Quote:evaporate
EVAPORATION involves the expenditure of HEAT energy at the rate of 540 calories per gram of water merely to DETACH and ACHIEVE your "single water molecule". In the LIQUID form those molecules are "bagged up" by the electrostatic forces of surface tension.

Quote:and rise into the atmosphere. If they don't encounter any dust particles and create clouds
Clouds don't occur JUST when water vapor meets dust, but when the DEW POINT is reached in the presence of dust.

Quote:they rise until they reach the altitude where the temperature is less than zero degrees C. Then they freeze and enter the ice phase.
What's this, a NEW science? They do no such thing. The water vapor remains as water vapor - INVISIBLE. It cannot form ice without something to nucleate upon.

Quote:The ice crystals continue to rise into the upper atmosphere.
LOL Behold, Icosaface's new lighter-than-air SOLID. Wasn't that the invention of Jules Verne?
Don't get your hopes up: ICE ALWAYS FALLS BECAUSE THE EARTH'S GRAVITY PREVAILS. Unless you speed it up to 18,000 mph.

Quote:A jet planes exhaust melts the ice crystals with its exhaust
Melts the ice crystals? Wasn't the plane in a clear blue sky? Aren't these ice crystals of yours VISIBLE? Do tell, the ONLY ice crystals I've ever seen were WHITE, or glass-like, reflecting white from a distance. "I'm dreaming of an invisible Xmas" - no, that DEFINITELY doesn't work...

Quote:and when the temperature is sufficiently low enough the water, in the liquid phase, and which latched onto the combustion by product particles freezes so quickly that it forms a trail of ice drops
Gibberish, the rest of it.

A POUND OF KEROSINE PUTS MORE THAN A POUND OF WATER INTO THE EXHAUST.

[Image: combustion.gif]

THAT POUND OF WATER CAN BECOME TEN THOUSAND POUNDS OF STRATOSPHERIC ICE, by accepting the WATER VAPOR out of a SUPERSATURATED stratospheric region of air.

"The average ice water per meter along the length of the contrail is 16 kilograms per meter (32.3 pounds per yard), some three to four orders of magnitude (a thousand to ten thousand times) greater than the water vapor released by typical jet aircraft, also similar to previously reported values. The net effect of the water and particles released by the aircraft results in a major inadvertent modification of the atmosphere under appropriate ambient conditions. Furthermore, the evaporation of the fallstreaks at lower levels indicates the downward transfer of moisture from the upper levels where the crystals have grown.
Although most investigators favor the finding that contrail cirrus produce atmospheric warming on regional scales in the United States and Europe, the impact on global warming is still in the noise. Should aircraft activity increase as projected, the global effects would become significant by 2050."


- from a paper called “Contrails to Cirrus—Morphology, Microphysics, and Radiative Properties” by Atlas, Wang, and Duda.

Quote:There is no water in the liquid phase at that altitude because the temperature there is many degrees below zero C and liquid water freezes when these temperatures are reached.
But there IS water vapor. There is ALWAYS water vapor, to the top of the stratosphere and beyond (the Earth is losing water vapor into Space all the time).
Furthermore, without meeting anything to nucleate upon, that vapor MUST go into supersaturation when found in quantity at any temperature and pressure below which condensation is possible.

Quote:Because there is no liquid water the contrail will not grow and spread.
Because there IS water vapor, and especially because it can be SUPERSATURATED, it can on occasion SPREAD and GROW.

Quote:Hence the aerosol trails which spread and spread and last for hours are not contrails.
Hence the aerosol trails which spread and spread and last for hours ARE contrails.

Now we've discovered exactly HOW wrong you are, I recommend you learn about the stratosphere, the strange things that water can do, like supercooling and supersaturation, and why.
Dew Point and Surface Tension you DEFINITELY need to check up on, and HOW water vapor is transported into the stratosphere in spite of the tropopause's low-temperature "lockdown". You'll discover stuff about the Jetstream.

Generally speaking, an abusive stance is almost always a sign of an unwillingness to learn. Lose it.
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