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the consciousness question
04-20-2009, 12:12 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-20-2009, 12:32 PM by triplesix.)
#1
the consciousness question
Parallel Symbiotic Discrete Animal Consciousness Development and Interspecies Superphysical Communication
I believe that human beings and modern thought are the result of ancient protohumans ingesting large amounts of hallucinogens, encouraging the growth of the prefrontal lobe, allowing for all the fundamental higher cognition characteristics of human beings to develop, leading us to where we are today. This theory exists in a sense as the "Stoned Ape" theory of human evolution, but Terrence McKenna argues that this relationship between neurotropic fungi began in the decline of the Ice Age around 12,000 years ago. Instead, I believe there is significant evidence showing an alternative situation where hominins were benefiting from this relationship 2,000,000 years ago, and indeed were integral to the very evolution of consciousness and the modern human.

Background on the Format, Function and Evolution of the Human Brain
References:
1. Evolution of the Human Brain
2. Functions of the Convolutions on the Surface of the Cerebrum
3. Wikipedia definition: Orbitofrontal Cortex
4. Wikipedia definition: Prefrontal Cortex
5. Wikipedia definition: Triune Brain

The evolution of the brain can best be described as a set of matryoshka dolls, that is the famous set of Russian dolls where each is of decreasing scale stored one inside the other. Each organism goes through its own microevolution in the course of its embryotic development, and so does the brain, with each evolutionary addition growing like a new layer of brain around the old. This is, of course, not a perfect analogy.
The process plays out as such:
Reptilian brain => Mammalian brain => "Higher" brain
which is more accurately described by Paul D. Maclean as the triune brain, divided as such:
The R-complex => The limbic system => The neocortex

It can be oversimply stated that development of the neocortex was the beginning of the separation between man and animal. The neocortex, alternatively/primarily the prefrontal cortex, is important because it contains the frontal convolutions or gyruses that are responsible for higher thought. I like to think this is the part of the brain necessary for recognition of the divine dichotomy, from which all things derive, the Tao. Medically, this is known as executive function. Executive function "relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, [past and future and right and wrong]."

The prefrontal cortex, most importantly for the purposes of my argument, also contains the third inferior frontal convolution. The reason this is so important, quite simply, is because without this system, the psychedelic experience would not be possible. This part of the brain is also intimately related to the limbic system, bridging the gap between proto-human and older mammalian brain structures as well as consciousness and the contemplation of the future with emotion and memory of the past.

A Crash Course on Paleomycology
References:
1. Strophariacaea, Pholiostrohyphopsilocybe
2. Fungi - Evolution
Paleomycology, if such a discipline can be said to exist, is difficult to quantify because few fungal fossils ever develop due to the squishy nature of the subject matter. Therefore arguments exist for the existence of fungus as far back as four billion years ago, or in fact formed the basis for Earth evolution in the case of theories such as panspermia and exogenesis. Proven fossils though prove that fungi have definitely existed since at least 400,000,000 years ago. Also, improvements in DNA analysis and comparison allow for other advanced methods with less theoretical extrapolation. By the later Tertiary period, around 20,000,000 years ago, the fungal kingdom was thriving and due for an explosion of divergent evolution. The evolution of psilocybe mushrooms can be placed between this 20,000,000 and 400,000,000 year time frame, anywhere from 18 to 398 million years prior to the evolution of the prefrontal cortex of the early hominins.

On another note, a question regarding psilocybin and the nature of the psilocybe psychedelic experience: do you believe the psilocybe mushroom produces this molecule to facilitate communication? Much research has been done on the consciousness of the plant kingdom, and we all know the sentience of the animal kingdom. However, did you know that you share more in common with a mushroom than a tree, and conversely fungus share more in common with animals than they do plants. So does this raise a question as to the relationship of cognizance in the organism in relation to its evolutionary kinship towards more or less sentient individuals?

Enter KNM-ER 1470: The First Shaman
Reference:
1. Terrence McKenna's "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution
2. Skull KNM-ER 1470
3. Wikipedia definition: Psychedelic experience
[Image: 1470.jpg]
[Image: 070328_rudolf_skull_01.jpg]
KNM-ER 1470 is the skull of a Homo habilis or Homo rudolfensis specimen from the late Gelasian or early Pleiocene era, dating around 1.9 million years old. It is of some minor notoriety due to some attention paid to it by noted Creationists. Note the remarkable resemblence to modern humans. This skull is beginning to show the development of a prefrontal cortex and the late developing third inferior frontal convolution. Here we see something in reality quite profound. Here is the earliest known skull belonging to a creature capable of experiencing the full range of all five levels of psychedelic experience as described by Timothy Leary. We can presume then, that the potential for a relationship between man and psychedelic existed throughout the entire Pleiocene era, which no doubt would have been discovered, at some point over those hundreds of thousands of years, in the search for food.

Terrence McKenna's "Stoned Ape" theory posits "as the North African jungles receded toward the end of the most recent ice age, giving way to grasslands, a branch of our tree-dwelling primate ancestors left the branches and took up a life out in the open -- following around herds of ungulates, nibbling what they could along the way. Among the new items in their diet were psilocybin-containing mushrooms growing in the dung of these ungulate herds." However, Terrence McKenna then goes too far, in my opinion, by suggesting that a rapid introduction to psychedelics created vast intellectual leaps in human thinking and creativity, and then a subsequent climatological change caused a cessation of psychedelic consumption and a loss of golden age prehistorical utopian collectivism.

Unverified Speculation of My Own / Conclusion
Instead I believe a long and consistent interaction between psychedelics and human beings played in an integral part in the development of consciousness and the evolution of higher brain complexes. Also, I believe these psychedelic compounds evolved synergistically with the synapses of the brain allowing smoother translation of this trans-species communication. This can be quite clearly illustrated by the tendency of most psychedelics to mimic the structures and "docking mechanisms" with the brain as other neural transmitters.

There is a biological drive towards the exercise and development of higher consciousness, as well as an attraction to altered states of consciousness. This is clearly established in the case of reindeer, lemur, felines, and many other higher order organisms. There is no greater evidence of this relationship than in the pervasive "addictive personality" seen in modern man.

The final conclusion of such a position is therefore obvious. The evolution of consciousness is directly related to the creative potential of psychedelic states of mind. History shows a predisposition to, and often a direct relationship between, psychoactives and the active mind. Men of genius throughout history have very often employed the use of psychoactives and virtually no medium of the early historical world could be mentioned far from some local entheogenic plant. I believe psychoactives play an important role in the development of 'normal' orders of consciousness and an almost integral part in the development of 'transcendental' orders of superconsciousness.

Peace, and thanks for reading.
666
&We grow to recognize form. We grow to label that form. In doing so, do we become more intelligent? Do we become more awakened?& - Siji Tzu 四季子
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04-23-2009, 03:41 AM,
#2
the consciousness question
Interesting:)

Quote:On another note, a question regarding psilocybin and the nature of the psilocybe psychedelic experience: do you believe the psilocybe mushroom produces this molecule to facilitate communication? Much research has been done on the consciousness of the plant kingdom, and we all know the sentience of the animal kingdom. However, did you know that you share more in common with a mushroom than a tree, and conversely fungus share more in common with animals than they do plants. So does this raise a question as to the relationship of cognizance in the organism in relation to its evolutionary kinship towards more or less sentient individuals?
Is this a claim that mushrooms and plants communicate with each other ? Did the research say that plants have a conscious ?


Quote:However, Terrence McKenna then goes too far, in my opinion, by suggesting that a rapid introduction to psychedelics created vast intellectual leaps in human thinking and creativity, and then a subsequent climatological change caused a cessation of psychedelic consumption and a loss of golden age prehistorical utopian collectivism.
So the claim is that psychedelic consumption made us evolve and that once the psychedelics were unavailable we became greedy ?


Quote:The final conclusion of such a position is therefore obvious. The evolution of consciousness is directly related to the creative potential of psychedelic states of mind. History shows a predisposition to, and often a direct relationship between, psychoactives and the active mind. Men of genius throughout history have very often employed the use of psychoactives and virtually no medium of the early historical world could be mentioned far from some local entheogenic plant. I believe psychoactives play an important role in the development of 'normal' orders of consciousness and an almost integral part in the development of 'transcendental' orders of superconsciousness
Well I do believe that consciousness is altered when using psychedelics and that one can believe that they are experiencing many different things while hallucinating, also they can come up with some unique ideas, - but are they real, are they the true reality, or just the trippy perception of it ?



What if I told you that I know an old hippy dude that is now in his 50's, that I've know him over 20 yrs, that he has used psychedelics in one form or another weekly (when available) for over 30 yrs, that he has went from competent to barely able to hold a coherent conversation.
Is he more highly evolved, or is he just burned out ?

&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
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04-23-2009, 10:40 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-23-2009, 10:55 AM by triplesix.)
#3
the consciousness question
Quote:Is this a claim that mushrooms and plants communicate with each other ? Did the research say that plants have a conscious ?
It was more a question of whether or not the plants are creating these hallucinogens to 'communicate' with us. Or if you don't believe it is an active communication, perhaps on a simpler level, these plants developed these hallucinogens to develop a relationship, or a symbiotic mutual interest, with us. Or at the very least other orders of consciousness capable of understanding their messages. Is it a natural attempt to develop a co-evolutionary path? It was just a question because while I've researched heavily into this topic I didn't want to get into it here where I was trying to carefully source what I was discussing. In reality, the section you refer to was just an aside not meant to be too heavily paid attention to.

Quote:
Quote:However, Terrence McKenna then goes too far, in my opinion, by suggesting that a rapid introduction to psychedelics created vast intellectual leaps in human thinking and creativity, and then a subsequent climatological change caused a cessation of psychedelic consumption and a loss of golden age prehistorical utopian collectivism.
So the claim is that psychedelic consumption made us evolve and that once the psychedelics were unavailable we became greedy?
That is Terence McKenna's claim. He believes our consciousness was expanded by psychedelics, allowing us to develop the tools and other seeds that would later create civilization, but then through a disconnect with these psychedelics during civilizations' infancy, man evolved socially to be competitive and violent.

In a way this goes with other conspiracy theories revolving around the concealment of ancient, indigenous knowledge by the ancient "knowledge horders" that would later develop the secret society mystery schools that would evolve into the esoteric Illuminati. Through hording the knowledge regarding our consciousness and interconnectedness, usually thoroughly illustrated themes in a psychedelic experience, the Illuminati have been able to exploit our fairly simplistic and predictable fear-based ego-response to manipulate us.

There is, of course, no evidence to support these positions, but the logic used to extrapolate them is sound enough, I guess. Food for thought.

Quote:
Quote:The final conclusion of such a position is therefore obvious. The evolution of consciousness is directly related to the creative potential of psychedelic states of mind. History shows a predisposition to, and often a direct relationship between, psychoactives and the active mind. Men of genius throughout history have very often employed the use of psychoactives and virtually no medium of the early historical world could be mentioned far from some local entheogenic plant. I believe psychoactives play an important role in the development of 'normal' orders of consciousness and an almost integral part in the development of 'transcendental' orders of superconsciousness
Well I do believe that consciousness is altered when using psychedelics and that one can believe that they are experiencing many different things while hallucinating, also they can come up with some unique ideas, - but are they real, are they the true reality, or just the trippy perception of it ?
I think this is a good question. One hallucinogen comes to mind particularly that pertains to this topic, and that is salvia divinorum. The best I can describe the Salvia trip is an extremely uncomfortable teleportation of consciousness to a completely different 'location' God knows where. One minute you are sitting there, having just exhaled the smoke, the next minute, you are in a completely different dimension. While here, remarkable shit happens, and then a minute later you are back in your body, sweating profusely and feeling completely disoriented.

Pretty much everyone I've ever talked to has described this experience as best they can, describing more or less the exact same experience. Now, I took this as complete evidence that the hallucinations therefore have merit, because lo and behold everyone describes the same thing. It must 'be there.' I thought this the completely logical assumption to make based on the similarity of the descriptions. Then fellow ConCener Solve et Coagula, in discussing the exact same thing about salvia, concluded, also with seemingly absolute certainty, that this must mean that it is all in the head, and the drug just makes everyone see the same hallucinations.

Now I would have to disagree, mostly because of my last salvia experience, which seemed to have both the 'presence' and 'otherness' properties of there being some other consciousness present. Like when you feel like someone is sneaking up on you or you are in a haunted house. It was a definite feeling of something else being there. But maybe I am wrong.

In my humble opinion, the hallucinations belie something that is actually there. The new thoughts and ideas, definitely, must be real, since they are new and exist as much as any thought exists inside your brain.

Quote:What if I told you that I know an old hippy dude that is now in his 50's, that I've know him over 20 yrs, that he has used psychedelics in one form or another weekly (when available) for over 30 yrs, that he has went from competent to barely able to hold a coherent conversation.
Is he more highly evolved, or is he just burned out ?
Now, this is of course, a very particular situation. I too, of course, have met many burnt out late adults who have used hallucinogens their entire adult lives. Here is what I think is causing an inhibition of the psychedelic from having the intended effect. Intent. I think that these users experience with psychedelics allows them to favor the 'hallucinogenic' experience from these drugs and suppress the 'psychedelic' experience of the drug. They focus on the 'fun' of the drug and ignore the 'seriousness' of the drug.

The etymology of hallucinogen is of course something that causes one to hallucinate, but the etymology of hallucinate implies day-dreaming and over time began to mean seeing illusions and finally the more psychiatric definition of seeing and hearing things which ultimately are not there. A hallucinogen then is something which induces the seeing and hearing of things that aren't there. This is of course the sought effect of mushrooms such as tracers when observing movement and refractions of light et cetera et cetera.

Psychedelic, meanwhile, is a much newer word, from the 50's, propogated by proponents of hallucinogenic drugs. This word is kind of a portmanteau, or neologism really, created by combining the greek words psyche and delous, which individually mean 'the mind' and 'to reveal.' So a psychedelic should then be something that 'reveals the mind.'

Either way, if someone is taking LSD, or psilocybe, or what have you, to 'see illusions' or to 'reveal their mind,' they are going to. The drug will do both. Most people I've talked to who have taken magic mushrooms describe greatly enjoying the cool visuals, but they really hate the extreme self-awareness they feel. Most people will call this part of the experience a bad trip. If someone does magic mushrooms for 30 years, all the while focusing on the cool visuals and doing his or her best to snap out of it every time his or her thoughts turn inward, no 'revealing of the mind' or any sort of 'mental evolution' will ever be possible.

However, what if someone, such as myself, enjoys the soul destroying work of combing through difficult personal memories, evaluating their effect on my personality and the manifestation of my ego, and examining the motivations, aspirations, dreams and desires of my waking consciousness? Could then, this perceived 'negative' aspect of mushrooms, by forcing these awkward mental meditations, be used to accomplish some psychological breakthrough?

Thanks for reading, jack,
peace
&We grow to recognize form. We grow to label that form. In doing so, do we become more intelligent? Do we become more awakened?& - Siji Tzu 四季子
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04-23-2009, 11:02 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-23-2009, 11:15 AM by rsol.)
#4
the consciousness question
well of course plants are conscious. if you look at any tree, it looks like a brain stem. Not to meantion they seem to know exactly when the seasons are coming.

Human consciousness is built on top of this system. Your body adapts to the seasons too. Your heart rate increases when you need it. You dont need to think about it. Much like a rock needs to roll down a hill, it just requires the motivation. They are stubborn mostly though.....

I dont consider human consciousness to be that special. I think our language has helped our realization but that can stem consciousness. When did you learn to be self aware?
Quote:However, what if someone, such as myself, enjoys the soul destroying work of combing through difficult personal memories, evaluating their effect on my personality and the manifestation of my ego, and examining the motivations, aspirations, dreams and desires of my waking consciousness? Could then, this perceived 'negative' aspect of mushrooms, by forcing these awkward mental meditations, be used to accomplish some psychological breakthrough?

Negative is merely an interpretation. The "cool" visuals can be incredibly disturbing for some. The self awareness in my book is the easy going bit. I can get a drag when the walls flush purple. It does depend on the person with this. Its like pot. Some people complain of "feeling paranoid". The simple fact is, its not that they are feeling more paranoid than they normally would, its really their awareness of that paranoia. I think it mainly centers around personal demons. If you are prepared to face them or not.

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04-23-2009, 09:07 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-23-2009, 09:07 PM by triplesix.)
#5
the consciousness question
Thanks for the input, rsol. It motivated me to make some quotations:
(The following quotations are all excerpts from Jeremy Narby's The Cosmic Serpent.)
Quote:In their visions, shamans take their consciousness down to the molecular level and gain access to information related to DNA, which they call "animate essences" or "spirits." This is where they see double helixes, twisted ladders, and chromosome shapes. This is how shamanic cultures have known for millennia that the vital principle is the same for all living beings and is shaped like two entwined serpents (or a vine, a rope, a ladder . . .). DNA is the source of their astonishing botanical and medical knowledge, which can be attained only in defocalized and "nonrational" states of consciousness, though its results are empirically verified.
I presume, by first taking this hypermicroscopic vision inward, shamans were able to assess the DNA and molecular structure of important structures within the human body. By cross-referencing the vision of neurotransmitters, or "human consciouness spirits," within the human body with the vision of structures in plants, the shamans may have been able to "see" which natural plants contained medical molecules with symbiotic and palliative effects.

DNA is an emitter/receiver of biophotons. Biophotonics is a confusing and baffling new science studying the effects of low-level biological chemiluminescence, or "dark bioluminescence," and its role in cellular reproduction and communication etc. Modern science has already begun the process of trivializing and downplaying this incredible information. According to wikipedia, "Since there is visible bioluminescence in many bacteria and other cells it can be inferred that the (extremely small) number of photons in ultra-weak bioluminescence is a random by-product of cellular metabolism." There you go folks, nothing to see here. Just the same old hokum you've always heard. Just that DNA is an antenna transmitting electromagnetic information, like a radio relay.

It might be of note to those students of the Third Eye that this bioemission is in the spectrum of visible light, and therefore it might appear, were it visible, that the body is emitting light of a various colour. Where have we heard this before? This light emission is very dim, but remarkably consistent. What this means is the DNA emits billions of tiny lasers, and "coherent sources of light, like a laser, gives the sensation of bright colours, a luminescence, and an impression of holographic depth."

Quote:Researchers working in [biophotonics] mainly consider biophoton emission as a "cellular language" or a form of "nonsubstantial biocommunication between cells and organisms." Over the last fifteen years, they have conucted enough reproducible experiments to believe that cells use these waves to direct their own internal reactions as well as to communicate among themselves, and even between organisms. For instance, photon emission proivides a communication mechanism that could explain how billions of individual plankton organisms cooperate in swarms, behaving like "super-organisms."
Quote:Consciousness could be the electromagnetic field constituted by the sum of these emissions. But, as you know, our understanding of the neurological basis for consciousness is still very limited.
Dr. Fritz-Albert Popp

Quote:DNA is also a crystal, as molecular biologist Maxim Frank-Kamenetskii explains: "The base pairs in it are arranged as in a crystal. This is, however, a linear, one-dimensional crystal, with each base pair flanked by only two neighbors. The DNA crystal is aperiodic, since the sequence of base pairs is as irregular as the sequence of letters in a coherent printed text." . . . However, this is not the case for the repeat sequences that make up a full third of the genome, such as ACACACACACACAC. In these sequences, DNA becomes . . . a periodic crystal--which could . . . pick up as many photons as it emits.
Thus the encoded informational aspects of the DNA crystal could exist for transmission while the repeated, nonsensical "junk DNA" could be space reserved for receiving external signals.

I have included this to address the nature of possible interspecies, incognizant, autonomic communication particularly under the influence of psychoactives that alter the receptivity of the consciousness to nontraditional stimuli. As well as explain perhaps how these plants may have enticed early man to make contact with them. All in all, it is presented mainly as food for thought. I don't really have any additional arguments.

Also...
Quote:Its like pot. Some people complain of "feeling paranoid".
I love this. Do you think there is a correlation between the paranoia of being stoned, clearly visibly inebriated and stinking of pot smoke, and the fact there is a trillion dollar globally orchestrated operation involving millions of brainwashed, jackbooted, psychopathic police officers with a bug up their ass about pot making it their personal goal to throw you in a year of jail and scan your body for the next five years? As well as the loss of job, education funds, future employment, working in education or with children, et cetera et cetera. Give me a break! If people were told not to fear drugs, and weren't hiding from Big Brother, and were out in nature, free from anxiety, and smoked some herb, do you think they'd freak out?

Peace
666
&We grow to recognize form. We grow to label that form. In doing so, do we become more intelligent? Do we become more awakened?& - Siji Tzu 四季子
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04-23-2009, 09:55 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-23-2009, 10:01 PM by Easy Skanking.)
#6
the consciousness question
Very interesting thread, Trip. This line of thought is on my mind very often. I find most of what you have to say pretty spot on with my personal research and conclusions as well. I'll elaborate on a few points that I find particularly interesting.

The first is in regard to plant consciousness. Anyone who has taken a high dose of any psychedelic or tryptamine and been around plants and trees may have noticed the peculiar connection to them in this state. I have felt a much closer bond to them and closer to "understanding" them or maybe just experiencing their perceptions of this reality. It can and has been a very profound experience as I have always felt more at home in nature. A similar connection to people can be had in that state but I perceive distinct differences in the kind of connections. I can't put them into words as they are "feelings" or visually symbolic meanings that have no translations into language. Those of you that have experienced this will hopefully understand my meaning. The rest of you ...well, it's one of those can't know until you know deals.

As to revealing the mind, I think you have summed it up well. The traditional shamanic usage of these substances has been to gain knowledge and not to escape, as they are mostly used now. While you can many times get the experience out of them that you are looking for, there will be a tendency to go deeper than just a "fun escape". People often talk of being "stuck in a loop" and qualify that as a bad trip. I think that hey are resisting the introspective tendency of the substance and it pushes them in that direction and they resist and repeat. Psychedelics are not all fun and games if you have unresolved issues. However, they can help resolve these issues but you have to "go through hell before you get to heaven". There is always tension before resolution and it can be a difficult experience if you are not prepared for it. After a trip, there is always a period when you need to incorporate the experience into yourself. I think people who seek to escape will use the substance again to avoid this part of the psychedelic cycle. This is actually the most important part, IMO. Sure you can have pretty visuals but they mean something as well and ignoring that can be called misuse of the psychedelic. Eventually the unresolved situation may build up and cause some to have psychotic episodes or to "burn-out".

On to dimensional travel. With salvia and DMT, this may well be the case instead of just mind generated hallucinations. I have no way to qualify an experience like that in an empirical way. Perception is the only way to distinguish these kinds of experiences from ones that are just a result of altering the serotonin or dopamine systems of the brain. They could also be a strong waking dream as DMT is released when dreaming. However, there are varying levels of immersion in dreams as there are in these trips. In both cases, there are some that are more real than this reality and some that are easily set apart as a dream or a trip. Some trips or dreams have felt to me like there was actually travel to a different realm or level of existence. The closest explanation would be of a different vibrational level. In a musical sense, it's sort of like this reality is a low B flat and the rest of reality is in that key signature with the low B flat drone underneath everything. Some of the trips are with the fundamental of B natural and the resultant key change that exhibits itself in everything. Some experiences are a more drastic key change and some are almost is an avant-garde composition with many accidentals and key changes. That's about the closest I can put them into words, so I apologize to the non-musical for that.;)
“Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after
equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ” -Nikola Tesla

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -Jimi Hendrix
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04-24-2009, 12:11 PM,
#7
the consciousness question
Thanks for the thoughts on the subject Easy Skanking, that was some interesting stuff. I particularly like where you took it at the end in discussing the relationship of other vibrational frequencies on a musical scale and discussing how that could relate to other dimensions. I took it as a way of considering that perhaps our bodies are one note on the scale, say a B, and our consciousness might be operating from say a B note but from one octave higher. That way it resonates with the body but is actually has many degrees of seperation from it. A plant consciousness might be an A note, that we just don't resonate with, or can't pick up on. Perhaps the psychedelic lets us see what note they're playing.

Kind of synchronistically I watched a David Icke video today he filmed in May of last year that I somehow missed. If you can't sit through a whole Icke video check out at least what he says at 1:15:20 and 1:48:30. It pertains specifically to what we've been discussing. The whole two hours of part 1, the video I watched, is about Icke's idea of the holographic universe. I found it interesting enough.
David Icke: Beyond the Cutting Edge, pt.1

Peace.
&We grow to recognize form. We grow to label that form. In doing so, do we become more intelligent? Do we become more awakened?& - Siji Tzu 四季子
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04-24-2009, 06:37 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-24-2009, 07:09 PM by rsol.)
#8
the consciousness question
As far as i was aware the human biorhythm is around 8hz. This coincidentally is the same speed at which the ionosphere vibrates.

There is postulation towards the idea of "controlling minds" with the ionosphere which I very much doubt. I feel the 8hz thing is perhaps an inherited fluctuation from the ionosphere but not a direct controller. A bit like blaming Jesus for the Spanish inquisition:)

Perhaps this is a synergistic frequency? perhaps a life giving vibrational effect? perhaps this is the missing link between rocks and people:) who knows.... id like to know the exact frequency and its note. id like to know if i like it:)

Im not a fan of icke as his way of looking at the world for me is a bit too simplistic in his approach. The whole multi-verse thing just stinks for me. not a big fan of that whole concept to be honest. smells a bit goddy. plus how many? an infinite number? whats wrong with having 1 infinite universe? that not enough?

Also that rules out the whole inter-dimensional beings hellbent on controlling a society on a tiny boring planet on an outer spiral arm of a galaxy. Arent we special! to what ends??? yadda yadda yadda. sorry david. some say you have done too many mushroooms but i feel.... not enough.....
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04-24-2009, 08:00 PM,
#9
the consciousness question
Quote:As far as i was aware the human biorhythm is around 8hz. This coincidentally is the same speed at which the ionosphere vibrates.

There is postulation towards the idea of "controlling minds" with the ionosphere which I very much doubt. I feel the 8hz thing is perhaps an inherited fluctuation from the ionosphere but not a direct controller. A bit like blaming Jesus for the Spanish inquisition:)

:LOL:

Quote:Perhaps this is a synergistic frequency? perhaps a life giving vibrational effect? perhaps this is the missing link between rocks and people:) who knows.... id like to know the exact frequency and its note. id like to know if i like it:)

Im not a fan of icke as his way of looking at the world for me is a bit too simplistic in his approach. The whole multi-verse thing just stinks for me. not a big fan of that whole concept to be honest. smells a bit goddy. plus how many? an infinite number? whats wrong with having 1 infinite universe? that not enough?

m-theory seems pretty 'solid' imo.

If you haven't already 'The Cosmic Serpent' is well worth a read.

Quote:Also that rules out the whole inter-dimensional beings hellbent on controlling a society on a tiny boring planet on an outer spiral arm of a galaxy. Arent we special! to what ends??? yadda yadda yadda. sorry david. some say you have done too many mushroooms but i feel.... not enough.....

see anyone else out there? :P
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04-29-2009, 05:10 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-29-2009, 05:18 AM by jack.)
#10
the consciousness question
Quote:well of course plants are conscious. if you look at any tree, it looks like a brain stem. Not to meantion they seem to know exactly when the seasons are coming.
I think you & I are using two different definitions of conscious.
Just bc plants bloom, die or hibernate under certain weather conditions/temperatures imo doesn't show a state of consciousness. Yes, they live, need nourishment, and breathe. But being self aware, well they don't really seem to be.
My daffodils came out early this year due to a few days of warm weather, but spring wasn't here yet so the blooms died when the frost came back, and now that spring weather seems to finally be here and they could enjoy the time living as a flower they are not re-blooming.
+ They sure don't sway away from the shears or the shovel like a human or animal would.

Quote:Much like a rock needs to roll down a hill, it just requires the motivation. They are stubborn mostly though.....
It does ? - stubborn i guess so, bc I've never seen one spontaneously roll with out being pushed, shoved or shaken

Quote:When did you learn to be self aware?
Aware of myself, - I suppose I've been aware of myself as long as I have been alive, I don't ever remember being non aware. Do you ?




@triplesix
I'll have to think on all this a bit more, but I do have a few comments. (ES beat me to one of them)

During a trip is when most people get that "we are all connected" especially to the environment feeling. I'm not convinced that it is reality tho, not that it isn't either.
This is not a new concept, but it is certainly one that is being promoted more and more. Why ? I'm unsure.
Many think that it is all good, but there is also much negative that could come from getting the majority to buy into it. Of course this is not - one with the environment that I'm referring to.
I like being an individual, yet as an individual I also recognize that my actions affect others. This "we are one" mind set that is currently becoming so popular could change all our individual qualites into a group power, a power that goes to a manipulative governing head. & if the group is in and of itself the head - what about all the non-comformists ? I suppose they shall be eliminated - (that sounds familiar)
That said I do not see what harm feeling as tho your connected to the environment could do. Except maybe giving too much power to "mother earth" and making the earth into a god, but then again if you already think it is - well great.



Don't you think that there would be more merit in learning about and "facing you demons" while sober ?


Do any of you know people that have experienced the euphoric 'tripping' feelings while sober ?



Easy Skanking Wrote:On to dimensional travel.
There is imo "other consciousness present" in this world, just bc you don't see them doesn't mean that they are not real and here. Nor does it mean that they are merely in your head, a part of your pshyce .
Are they in or from a different dimension, I don't know, - I suppose that would be one way to describe it.
I realize however that this is a minority opinion around here. - guess the head won't want me, since I seem unable to learn to conform to the mass opinions
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
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04-30-2009, 10:40 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-30-2009, 10:49 AM by rsol.)
#11
the consciousness question
Quote:It does ? - stubborn i guess so, bc I've never seen one spontaneously roll with out being pushed, shoved or shaken

that would be motivation now wouldn't it? It does want to go down that hill. it just needs a kick up the ass:) The principle of cause and effect in consciousness. Thats what the rock needs in order to do what it can do. is the rock happy or sad? doubtful. It doesn't require emotions to sit there. What im trying to convey is an idea of consciousness of human/animal/plant/rock/molecule/atom/sub-atom.

Self awareness has its shades of gray. Not many people in this world are fully self aware. Some have to learn their self awareness. Even then they dont get it. are you aware of your thoughts? the motivation behind them? the reason you ask about your motivations? Are you on a direct link to your "sub-conscious" can you converse with is. You are as the rock is. its just a bit more complicated.

The reason i don't go for the multiverse theory is the idea that sharing space with a gazillion universes doesn't cause any phasing. If you look into radio, you will see that to acquire a radio signal one requires several frequency groups in order to achieve a coherent signal. There are plenty of relative frequencies of various matter already. light for example. Also, how far apart are these differences in frequency? are they far apart? as its infinite surely they should be almost infinitely close in frequency range this would cause phasing and destroy almost ALL these multiverses on their initial. The tangle would be more than a cub scout could unravel. And lastly the fact that whatever it is that we are sitting in, is a material of some form. it must have a point of rip and tear. light can only travel so fast and space stops this from happening. will light travel slower in the universes above our frequency? faster in the lower frequencies? the answer will be who knows? way too much grey area.

Also its bit like the time travel hypothesis. If someone had invented a time machine we would have them appear through out history. we would know. Why don't we get strange radio signals from other "dimensions"? or is it only in this "special" plane that we are on do all the cool inventions happen.

Water can have multiple waves traveling over its surface but they DO effect each other. My view of matter and relativity does not give credence to multiple universes or time travel. Both these sci-fi ideas would require a deity. Im not a big proponent of a god. This is due to my concept of time. As its merely an abstract, Its not really a thing in its own right. There is no beginning middle or end to this universe and when i mean universe im not talking about the matter within it. . having more than one universe would require intervention. There is no proof even close to suggesting it. Vague logic isnt going to cut it with me. multi-verse = pseudoscience.
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04-30-2009, 02:28 PM,
#12
the consciousness question
Writing and speaking are linear.

The world around us is a parallel occurrence: it is always happening all-at-once and in all perceivable (and non-perceivable) dimensions: it's a massive simultaneity.

So it isn't surprising that it is difficult to describe one's perception of existence to another: there are so many different things to consider, and so many different ways to perceive even one thing, that it is almost a miracle that we can find anything to agree about.

Man originated in the Great Rift Valley in central east Africa, which was at that time more tropically-rainforested than it is at present. It was stocked with MORE diversity than the region now exhibits.

Before Man became Man, as an ape, he would have foraged and eaten EVERYTHING that was edible, and would have taught his children what was good, and what type of "goodness" it was. I think it would be safe to assume that even our ancestral ape knew about marihuana, chat, brewing alcohol, and what was a good fungus and what wasn't. "Special effects devices" would have been set aside for special occasions...

Even elephants do that with the fruit of a certain tree. They remember when its fruits are ripe and trek hundreds of miles to harvest it, brew it up in their stomachs, and get drunk for a week...

It's an interesting topic...:)
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04-30-2009, 03:03 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-30-2009, 03:03 PM by ---.)
#13
the consciousness question
Quote:Water can have multiple waves traveling over its surface but they DO effect each other. My view of matter and relativity does not give credence to multiple universes or time travel. Both these sci-fi ideas would require a deity. Im not a big proponent of a god. This is due to my concept of time. As its merely an abstract, Its not really a thing in its own right. There is no beginning middle or end to this universe and when i mean universe im not talking about the matter within it. . having more than one universe would require intervention. There is no proof even close to suggesting it. Vague logic isnt going to cut it with me. multi-verse = pseudoscience.

Quote:Critics argue that to postulate usually unobservable universes just to explain our universe seems contrary to Occam's razor.

Tegmark answers: "A skeptic worries about all the information necessary to specify all those unseen worlds. But an entire ensemble is often much simpler than one of its members. This principle can be stated more formally using the notion of algorithmic information content. The algorithmic information content in a number is, roughly speaking, the length of the shortest computer program that will produce that number as output. For example, consider the set of all integers. Which is simpler, the whole set or just one number? Naively, you might think that a single number is simpler, but the entire set can be generated by quite a trivial computer program, whereas a single number can be hugely long. Therefore, the whole set is actually simpler. Similarly, the set of all solutions to Einstein's field equations is simpler than a specific solution. The former is described by a few equations, whereas the latter requires the specification of vast amounts of initial data on some hypersurface. The lesson is that complexity increases when we restrict our attention to one particular element in an ensemble, thereby losing the symmetry and simplicity that were inherent in the totality of all the elements taken together. In this sense, the higher-level multiverses are simpler. Going from our universe to the Level I multiverse eliminates the need to specify initial conditions, upgrading to Level II eliminates the need to specify physical constants, and the Level IV multiverse eliminates the need to specify anything at all." He continues "A common feature of all four multiverse levels is that the simplest and arguably most elegant theory involves parallel universes by default. To deny the existence of those universes, one needs to complicate the theory by adding experimentally unsupported processes and ad hoc postulates: finite space, wave function collapse and ontological asymmetry. Our judgment therefore comes down to which we find more wasteful and inelegant: many worlds or many words. Perhaps we will gradually get used to the weird ways of our cosmos and find its strangeness to be part of its charm. "

"Parallel universes. Not just a staple of science fiction, other universes are a direct implication of cosmological observations.", Tegmark M., Sci Am. 2003 May;288(5):40-51.

[Image: 180px-CMS_Higgs-event.jpg]
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05-01-2009, 06:58 PM,
#14
the consciousness question
Quote:In this sense, the higher-level multiverses are simpler. Going from our universe to the Level I multiverse eliminates the need to specify initial conditions, upgrading to Level II eliminates the need to specify physical constants, and the Level IV multiverse eliminates the need to specify anything at all." He continues "A common feature of all four multiverse levels is that the simplest and arguably most elegant theory involves parallel universes by default. To deny the existence of those universes, one needs to complicate the theory by adding experimentally unsupported processes and ad hoc postulates

haw??default logic. interesting way of putting it. but what the hell is he talking about? vague is not the best adjective for today but its all i got. im tired.

Is it me? im a guy who likes find the salt of the matter. now hes saying there's more condiments out there?
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05-03-2009, 01:37 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-03-2009, 01:44 PM by JazzRoc.)
#15
the consciousness question
Quote:plants are conscious. if you look at any tree, it looks like a brain stem.
That's not too logical, is it? Comparing nutrient distribution with electron distribution?

Quote:Not to mention they seem to know exactly when the seasons are coming.
That would be built-in response mechanisms. They are contained in RNA strings in each plant cell. You can hardly compare those with imaginative, industrious, mendacious mankind...

Quote:I don't consider human consciousness to be that special.
Perhaps that's why I sometimes feel I'm arguing with a tree...:)

Quote:Water can have multiple waves traveling over its surface but they DO affect each other.
No they don't! I AM arguing with a tree!:D
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