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the consciousness question
05-03-2009, 02:16 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-03-2009, 02:17 PM by JazzRoc.)
#16
the consciousness question
Quote:During a trip is when most people get that "we are all connected" especially to the environment feeling. I'm not convinced that it is reality tho, not that it isn't either.
I think that's internal, but not accessible to our conscious until we trip.

Quote:Don't you think that there would be more merit in learning about and "facing your demons" while sober?
Surely tripping is the time to learn about one's demons, and sobriety the time to face them?

Quote:Do any of you know people that have experienced the euphoric 'tripping' feelings while sober?
You betcha! Just wait three days with an abscess behind a tooth, taking heavy painkillers, until a dentist lances it with a scalpel. I had a hard time staying on the floor and not chasing the pretty nurses out of the building! Boy, did I feel good!:)

Quote:There is imo "other consciousness present" in this world, just bc you don't see them doesn't mean that they are not real and here. Nor does it mean that they are merely in your head, a part of your psyche.
Sorry. You have previously subconsciously perceived manifestations of other "personalities" which only became accessible to you when LSD lifted your lid, and opened your box.:makeout:
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05-04-2009, 12:01 AM,
#17
the consciousness question
I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who thought plants were different than humans or animals when it came to a state of consciousness
good to see we agree on something Jazz

Quote:
jack Wrote:Don't you think that there would be more merit in learning about and "facing your demons" while sober?
Surely tripping is the time to learn about one's demons, and sobriety the time to face them?
Hmmm, I would say both would be of more merit done while sober.


JazzRoc Wrote:
jack Wrote:Do any of you know people that have experienced the euphoric 'tripping' feelings while sober?
You betcha! Just wait three days with an abscess behind a tooth, taking heavy painkillers, until a dentist lances it with a scalpel. I had a hard time staying on the floor and not chasing the pretty nurses out of the building! Boy, did I feel good!:)
LOL Jazz, but that's not quite what I meant. I mean no drugs - none.
I have.

JazzRoc Wrote:
jack Wrote:There is imo "other consciousness present" in this world, just bc you don't see them doesn't mean that they are not real and here. Nor does it mean that they are merely in your head, a part of your psyche.
Sorry. You have previously subconsciously perceived manifestations of other "personalities" which only became accessible to you when LSD lifted your lid, and opened your box.:makeout:
No, unfortunately - I was sober, & it wasn't in my subconscious.
Now you know what's wrong with me :P
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
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05-04-2009, 02:40 PM,
#18
the consciousness question
Quote:Now you know what's wrong with me :P
I think that the way we collapse everything into a "shortform" makes our routine life efficient. If you cannot do that, it must really slow you up. Is there a compensation?
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05-05-2009, 02:39 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-05-2009, 03:04 AM by rsol.)
#19
the consciousness question
Quote:That would be built-in response mechanisms. They are contained in RNA strings in each plant cell. You can hardly compare those with imaginative, industrious, mendacious mankind...

oooo yes i can. just because you get a bit more freedom of movement etc it doesnt mean you are not a slave to your instincts. just because those instincts are more complex than that of the plant, its no different. You should consider your roots:)

When i look at conciousness i can see it between you, me, the tree, the rock, everything. You just dont rate it because a plant isnt really into reading. You are the one needing more input, not the plant. it knows all it needs to know...

id like to see how industrious you would be without this heretige of knowlege that has been accumulated before you..your dna doesnt hold language, only your capacity to learn it.

QUOTE
Quote:
Quote:Water can have multiple waves traveling over its surface but they DO affect each other.

No they don't! I AM arguing with a tree!

goes to show im talking to a numpty. interference. you think waves have no effect on each other? you put two wave next to each other . you think when they meet they have no effect? you dont see the waves raise more? you dont see that they are lessened in force as they break from each other? maybe you were too busy with your reflection at the time. . You wanna try and broadcast a radio signal 0.1 hz away from the other and see the mess you get? FM AM it wouldnt matter!!! Thats why people broadcast radio in the analogue form at frequencies WAY apart from each other. no INTERFERENCE.
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05-05-2009, 10:13 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-05-2009, 10:14 AM by JazzRoc.)
#20
the consciousness question
Quote:oooo yes i can. just because you get a bit more freedom of movement etc it doesnt mean you are not a slave to your instincts. just because those instincts are more complex than that of the plant, its no different. You should consider your roots.
NO. Rationality overcomes instinct on occasion. We live in a world full of those consequences. It is WE that are a threat to the world at the present time. Had we remained as apes the place would be Eden.

Quote:When i look at conciousness i can see it between you, me, the tree, the rock, everything.
And so do I... when tripping. But I know that to be a complex projection of myself upon the world.

Quote:You just don't rate it because a plant isn't really into reading. You are the one needing more input, not the plant. it knows all it needs to know...
You're getting into trouble here, second-guessing me. The plant's intellectual content is smaller than my last crap.

Quote:I'd like to see how industrious you would be without this heritage of knowlege that has been accumulated before you.. your dna doesn't hold language, only your capacity to learn it.
No. It's a blueprint for my construction only.

Quote:goes to show im talking to a numpty. interference.
And what happens when the waves PASS?

They remain as before. So do waves affect each other? NO.

That shitpile balanced on your neck has let you down once more.
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05-05-2009, 10:36 AM,
#21
the consciousness question
..and your temper has let you down once more, JR.
You are warned for insulting other members...again. Keep it civil.
“Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after
equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ” -Nikola Tesla

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -Jimi Hendrix
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05-06-2009, 12:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-06-2009, 02:04 PM by rsol.)
#22
the consciousness question
Quote:The plant's intellectual content is smaller than my last crap.

clever shit. id like to see it change with the seasons..


but one again you have confused consciousness with intellect. we are talking about relative arguments about consciousness, not what the organism does with that consciousness.


@ jack. im am not saying that human consciousness is "exactly" the same as that of a plant. what im saying is, you can relate human consciousness to plants in the same way you can relate a house to a brick.
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05-07-2009, 11:13 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-07-2009, 11:51 AM by triplesix.)
#23
the consciousness question
I'll try to steer this beast back into the original rabbit hole we were starting to head into...
I don't know why such great minds can't accept the challenge presented by a fellow thinker. No hostility among friends, even if sometimes we might like to appear too clever for our own good.:chill pill:
Quote:@triplesix
I'll have to think on all this a bit more, but I do have a few comments. (ES beat me to one of them)

During a trip is when most people get that "we are all connected" especially to the environment feeling. I'm not convinced that it is reality tho, not that it isn't either.
This is not a new concept, but it is certainly one that is being promoted more and more. Why ? I'm unsure.
Many think that it is all good, but there is also much negative that could come from getting the majority to buy into it. Of course this is not - one with the environment that I'm referring to.
I like being an individual, yet as an individual I also recognize that my actions affect others. This "we are one" mind set that is currently becoming so popular could change all our individual qualites into a group power, a power that goes to a manipulative governing head. & if the group is in and of itself the head - what about all the non-comformists ? I suppose they shall be eliminated - (that sounds familiar)
That said I do not see what harm feeling as tho your connected to the environment could do. Except maybe giving too much power to "mother earth" and making the earth into a god, but then again if you already think it is - well great.
I think there is a lot of confusion on the "we are all connected" theme, mostly caused by the phenomenon that people rarely ask for clarification on metaphors for fear of looking stupid.

Some people try to say we all are one in that all humans are made from the same God stuff. Others are saying we're all made from molecules and atoms. Others say we are all the same electromagnetic vibrations subjectively experienced in a holographic cymatic cacophony of decoded electrical impulses translated into a perceived physical universe. My point is, every different person is generally implying something different when they say "we all are one."

In the one sense, I agree with pretty much what I've described. I think the more important and less metaphysical (aka: trivial) meaning I try to impart is that we all come from the same infant source. Every human being no matter what their 'life condition' might be is born the same way. The infant consciousness is the same null void for all human beings. There is no 'natural' reason the infant consciousness needs to fully 'fit in' to the 'adult world' if the 'adult world' that infant is being expected to conform to contains invalid reason. It is really quite simple. The only reason this dischordant system is perpetuated is because it is the beneficial system for the elite manipulators. There is little incentive for a child of Palestine or Israel to grow up with hate. However, given time and the evil of others, and worse, the disconnected turning away of society from punishing evil, the infant consciousness can be fully corrupted. Think of how quickly the world would change if the young people of the world were willing and capable of renouncing the ideas of war, conquest, and intimidation and furthermore end the systemic tacit approval of these tactics by not allowing violators to escape the law.

In my mind, there are two things that must exist in order for citizens to participate honestly in their society and create a pacifist yet strong nation, two things needed for a sustainable, equitable nation. Firstly, bring true equality to all under the law. I know, damn near impossible, at the minimum requiring we cease the practice of private law and strictly screen the entire justice process for manipulation. Secondly, the citizens themselves must be committed to non-participation in aggressiveness and hostility. There is no downside to having a strong and well-trained and well-equipped nation-wide militia system; there is no downside to having a well-armed and well-trained population, as long as this force is committed to defending liberty and having no intention of interfering with liberty and individual rights nor any intention of attacking any entity any where any time. There is a serious misunderstanding in American society about what exactly the duty of the military is, the reality of what is 'defending the United States,' what is 'supporting our troops,' and how honor, courage, loyalty, chivalry et cetera are earned rather than bought with a system of mercenarism. The behavior of most enlisted men is f'n despicable, yet is meant to represent the height of Americanism. The Modern Babylon seems more Assyrian to me.

Anyway, as far as the dangers of the 'We are One' mentality (got a little distracted there) I think it is a similarly manifold enigma. On the one hand, it is unifying but it is also deceptively simple, and therefore can be interpreted in all sorts of misguided ways. Take for example, the "I am God" New Age delusion. This is also very similar to the 'defy God by venerating oneself' mentality of Satanists who also frequently claim they are their own god. This is simply a matter of perception. To me this argument holds no water by simple observation. There is easily arguable magnitudes of consciousness separating humans from animals, but there is nothing sublime or divine about the human condition and little to verify any individual claims to god-like power. Satanists love to claim a 'magickal' power behind their "intention." This is, of course, in line with the New Age resurrection of the concept of the "law" of attraction. Obviously I'd love to see a Satanist with tons of money, friends, and hot women on each arm for no reason beyond the power of their intentional magick. Simple megalomania towards their individual power over the universe if you ask me.

Crowley's Thelema, which I myself am not very familiar with, dealt with this "intention magick" on the surface but I think more simply discussed the seperation between the sheep and the elite controllers. Thelema being the mindset of the Illuminati elite that allows them to be the dark manipulators of the world. Both a means and the desire to create the New World Order. Still, this is not simply the desire to be God and therefore experience forced acquisition of godly powers. Juvenile these 'witches' and 'wizards.'

I think there is also a new theme in secular humanist atheism whereby having destroyed the archaic concept of a Judgement God, individuals then must face the lack of an arbiter in the universe, complete with all the implied cold randomness and unpenalized actus reus. The reward system for Good and Evil is removed and the enforcement of personal ethics no longer faces external authority. In this situation the individual is left with a limited lifespan limited by their inevitable death which could arrive at any time. They are also faced with the immediate personally beneficiary qualities of secrecy, deception and fraud. The central tenet of rational self-interest is simply in the name, a mentality rationalizing selfishness. This is, of course, the natural thing to do if one is faced with a mortal life-span and no desire to behave morally. Of course the rational self-interested individual does not consider themselves evil, except perhaps in the case of the Satanist, but nonetheless logic, in all of its amoral glory, possesses all the tools needed to rationalize away unethical behavior. Torture is rationalized. Murder is rationalized. Theft is rationalized. Et cetera. Evil is logical, in a game of selfish, no-holds-barred, capitalist competition. Capitalism, or "dog eat dog, might is right," as well, is inevitably rationalized and therefore fallaciously inextricably paired with freedom.

Especially strange now is the Oprah Christian. Now there is a New Age fusion of Christian redemption principles with (misunderstood) Hindu karma, and a healthy spattering of "we are One" New Age Buddhism with a minimalist, laymen understanding of quantum mechanics to explain everything else magical they choose to believe in. It all sounds fairly innocuous but the fact of the matter is it is a selectively appropriated philosophy that requires mere faith in unprovable concepts that have been kicked around for centuries. It's the modern American, build-a-god, shopping mall religion.

Then there is the pagan Nature worship revival. Which I can understand at least on a pragmatic sense. There is nothing outside of the individual with which we interact more and who more decides the fate of our lives than the Earth and the forces of Nature. I think this just doesn't make much sense. Nature is just more of the same material as we are, subject to the same cosmic laws as we are. To worship it seems intrinsically incorrect. It is still worshipping the fractional, similar, holographic partition that in a sense deserves some reverence, as does all sorts of fantastic features to the universe, but does not deserve the title nor fulfill the 'requirements' as it were to really call the Natural world god. I think this becomes an easy outlet for the contemporary university neo-hippie, neo-yuppie set to whom false counter-culture hero icons have replaced god with Dawkins and perpetual profit margins with 'sustainable growth.' Since these individuals require a leader to follow and a slogan to absorb, the lack of a mainstream religious alternative to the 'classic' religions, which most modern youth no longer identify with at all, most of these youth are atheists without much further contemplation. "I don't believe in anything," they'll usually say. Once an individual like this begins to yearn for divine realization, as most people eventually do, the natural and 'imperiled' world becomes a source of self-indentification and later deification, especially if the fearful narcissist had already begun the previously discussed path of deifying itself.

On that note I think it is fairly dense to assume that god necessarily has to be a thing. I believe that the supreme understandable and expressible language of creation is math and math is at its weakest when talking about 'things.' X is 1 is 1. That's that. But f(x)=mx+b expresses an infinite number of two-dimensional expressions. More than likely, in my mind, "God" is a process, a function, almost certainly cyclical and infinitely complex yet capable of being expressed remarkably simply if the right sub-functions were properly decoded and understood. In fact, this function is already best expressed, thusly:

In discussing 'we are One' and the 'nature as God' conceptions I have to at least divulge some Taoist clarification to my ideas. The we are One concept from a Taoist perspective is a lot more obvious. Everything in the beginning was pure potential. It is kind of like how in order to jump into the air, at the very last moment, all of our power is pushed, paradoxically into the ground. All of the potential for the leap into the air is actually bottled up down at the bottom of the feet against the ground, as antipodal to the desired end as possible. The Tao at Creation would certainly appear as antithetical to life as pushing with all of your might into the ground would appear to gliding through the air. As the Tao, in the next instant, divided itself into yin and yang, infinite dichotomies began to define the nature of the universe and in time further differentiations finished the finer stratifications of perception until the Universe found its Tao, in an alternate definition, meaning natural state or flow, leading us to the present moment. While we, the Earth, and the Universe, et cetera, are unique expressions of the same inseverable Tao, it makes no sense to worship any partition of such a whole, as I mentioned before, as God.

Quote:Don't you think that there would be more merit in learning about and "facing you demons" while sober ?
Do any of you know people that have experienced the euphoric 'tripping' feelings while sober ?
The contention I have with these questions is the essential tenet these are built upon, and that is that sobriety is somehow so important that it demands 24 hour vigilance. I think asceticism is unhealthy and not in accordance with the Tao. There is a naturalness to intoxication and like the both ancient and conventional wisdom goes there is a time for all things under heaven, including getting inebriated. Few people can argue against the enjoyment of having a cold beer after a long day, yet in the same breath they can raise up all sorts of indignation and prejudice towards the varying euphoriants other people might choose to enjoy. Even sex is a therapeutic endorphin cocktail that in itself is a form of self-medication. In my mind, these questions are moot, or at the most, incredibly specific individual to individual. Sobriety might be the best time for facing demons for some, but for many who have been dealt far more rotten cards than I in this divine card game, I imagine it is far too difficult. rsol said:

Quote:Self awareness has its shades of gray. Not many people in this world are fully self aware. Some have to learn their self awareness. Even then they dont get it. are you aware of your thoughts? the motivation behind them? the reason you ask about your motivations? Are you on a direct link to your "sub-conscious" can you converse with is. You are as the rock is. its just a bit more complicated.
I think this is a lot further than most people have ever self-reflected. However, most people relate these same baffling questions after an experience with psilocybe mushrooms. It might take a fairly intelligent individual years of philosophical meditation interrupted by the stresses of sober life to even scratch the surface of these unconventional self-observations. Yet six hours of psilocybin often forces the same alternative self-awareness. To question if consuming magic mushrooms has any merit at all in the face of such explosive empirical evidence is just intellectual dishonesty, in my opinion. Good point, rsol, by the way, jolly good. :beer:

There was a bit of a back-and-forth previously about the subject of whether or not waves, when passing through one another, interact. Well they do. Imagine a dirt particle just floating on the surface of the water rsol posited before. As one ripple strikes the dirt particle the particle would ride the sinusoid wave-form along its amplitude, or bob in the water, lol. Now imagine another wave-form interfering with and intersecting the original wave. In this case, the amplitude of the displaced dirt particle becomes the sum of the amplitudes of the two individual waves. If these waves are "in phase" then the amplitude will increase and the particle will bob up further than usual, as rsol described in his original comment. If the waves were absolutely out of phase then the water would seem to momentarily settle and particle would essentially remain motionless for the duration of the combined crest.

Quote:
Quote:There is imo "other consciousness present" in this world, just bc you don't see them doesn't mean that they are not real and here. Nor does it mean that they are merely in your head, a part of your psyche.
Sorry. You have previously subconsciously perceived manifestations of other "personalities" which only became accessible to you when LSD lifted your lid, and opened your box.
I'm not going to come out and say your theory is wrong but it strikes me as somewhat cynical and skeptical beyond simply being an over-simplification. There are many psychedelics out there and each appears to have varying degrees of legitimacy, or 'realness' for lack of a better word. LSD or others might manifest subconscious "personalities" through some psyche autogenesis but I do not believe this accurately describes a salvia experience. The 'otherness' was far too alien and beyond my preconceptions to be from my own imagination. If this is subconscious mental artistic self-expression it does little to explain the inspirational creative properties of psychedelics nor how the subconscious is inspired to concieve of unnatural and unique streams of consciousness, or physical beings for that matter. I'm still not convinced there is no legitimacy in regard to the existence of other 'non-bodied' living entities, particularly as described during a DMT experience, of which I haven't yet the opportunity to enjoy.

I had more theories I wished to discuss relating to inner alchemy, earth energy field parallels to human energy fields, the akashic record and the concept of cosmic akasha and a "unified akashic record" theory to explain the motivation behind the "god process" and all sorts of other convoluted garbage but it's getting late. I'll get to it though.

Peace and thanks for all the heavy thoughts.
:a_joint::popcorn:
&We grow to recognize form. We grow to label that form. In doing so, do we become more intelligent? Do we become more awakened?& - Siji Tzu 四季子
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