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The Bible Uncut
09-01-2010, 06:17 PM,
#1
The Bible Uncut
hey guys, this is a first draft, it needs tightening up in places and i have to do something with the ending but any criticism will be gratefully received - thanks - j

The Bible Uncut
Part I

Searching the Spaces

It is of course impossible to know precisely what has been cut from or added to the Bible. Yes, it is the word of God but as we are all God's creations it stands to reason there is nothing in the universe that is not empowered through God's word.

That said, to the individual, on the personal, God's will appears irrelevant, non-existent in day-to-day word and action: and therefore is easily abused or manipulated by any or all claiming authority.

As such let us first establish basic rules, guidelines, to enable a clear understanding of how to be: motivation to underlie action, before examining arbitrary, manipulated or questionable instructions within our subject matter. So it is of greatest import not to mistake ritual and convention, without any ethical base, for foundational Truth.

*

Examining 'the Ten Commandments', given one relates to ritual and convention (observing the Sabbath, one day out of seven), unerringly the remaining nine endorse honesty and respect as harmonic with Truth/God. “Do unto others...” the basic rule of reciprocity. It is essential to note that this applies to all creation: it is not reserved 'the Chosen', for friends or subject to personal preference. This is the Law/Truth Moses, Israel's greatest prophet, brought down from Mount Sinai: and a Truth so established people dispute it only in secret, behind locked doors, or borders.

However, superimposed on our basic Truth comes an obsession with gold and jewels, and ritual and absolution – sacrifice and taxes – to God's debt collectors, the priests, who place a value on every sin: atonement through bribery. (In the process, 'sinners' are distracted from the genuine message and sucked into identifying within 'the Chosen' and surrendering power/responsibility to God's middlemen.)

Sacrifice and penance, wealth and ownership, ritual and taxes dominate the remaining books attributed to Moses: Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, before the battle for the holy land begins in earnest, under Joshua.

However, before we begin examining Joshua etc., it is worth noting a couple of additional points on Moses which are rarely if ever mentioned. Firstly, Moses was married to a black woman, a Cushite, from the land of Cush i.e. the Sudan. And, what is more, his relations did not approve: an early example of racism, and a theme to become repetitive. Yet, also, proof that it was not solely the descendants of Jacob escaping from Egypt.

The descendants of Moses are not mentioned, perhaps he was childless, however given that childlessness is seen throughout preceding history as punishment or a test, it would seem unlikely.

Returning to the Testament, following Israel's forty years in the desert under Moses, Joshua invades Canaan: in the name of the LORD, to purge the land of wicked idol worshipping heathens. Well, farmers mostly. It is a tale of intolerance that will spread beyond Joshua through Judges, Samuel I & II, Kings I & II, Chronicles I & II, until their eventual overthrow by Babylon: for people who do not follow the same rituals and practices as 'God's Chosen'. It is not mentioned as to whether any or all of them were in violation of the other Commandments.

However, what is inescapable is quite how frequently Israel, and its chosen leaders abuse God's laws, and how angry and impatient God becomes with them. They are intolerant, dishonest and cruel and leave no commandment unbroken. Judges is a litany of abuse and power struggles amongst the tribes, culminating with a Levite giving his concubine to a group of Benjaminites who rape and murder her, which prompts the Levite to cut her into twelve pieces and send one to each of the twelve tribes: leading to war and the virtual extinction of the tribe of Benjamin. This is remedied by slaughtering everyone in Jabesh, except for four hundred virgins, effectively gifted to the Benjaminites to re-establish their tribe.

In the aftermath, according to Samuel I, God decides to install a king to dictate behaviour. God's chosen representative is Saul whose behaviour and attitude matches the preceding Judges but nevertheless he (at least symbolically) unites the tribes under a single banner. Saul is arrogant and ruthless and annihilates all who stand in his way, including priests, women and children. Realising his mistake God decides to replace Saul with David, whose behaviour and attitude are little different.

David's litany of slaughter and abuse are too great to itemise, he makes war on everyone. Indeed, as a dowry for the hand of Saul's daughter, Saul demands one hundred Philistine foreskins but David goes one better and delivers two hundred. David is a gangster, adulterer and murderer, mass murderer, as documented, yet, supposedly, is still favoured by God.

David lives to a ripe old age, he brings the covenant box to Jerusalem, but does not build the Temple to house it, that task is left to Solomon, his son and heir.

Solomon prayed to God for wisdom and it was granted. He built the Temple and made good relations with Israel's neighbours. Word of his wisdom spread far and wide and he was visited by many admirers, most notably, the Queen of Sheba. Solomon had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines from across the known world, who, along with their servants and attendants, were allowed to worship their own chosen deities. He ruled the unified land for forty years and there was peace and prosperity for the descendants of Jacob.

Solomon was succeeded by his son, Rehoboam, who, rejecting his father's advisers, listens to his friends and attempts to magnify taxes and oppress the people. The tribes of Israel rebel and the kingdom splits in two. This is presented in the Bible as God's anger with Solomon for allowing foreign influence. Supposedly God did not act while Solomon was alive because it would hurt his feelings!? Well, full marks for compassion, but, if one is trying to set an example, just plain stupid.

Nevertheless this perspective and attitude, superiority and intolerance, dominates Kings and Chronicles as God installs leader after leader, only to become angry as they abuse power and break from the law, generating assorted calamities, their eventual overthrow by Babylon and the sacking of Jerusalem, and exile for the tribes: because of their sins.

After seventy or so years of atonement, Israel, under the Persian Empire, is re-established in Jerusalem, the ruins. Rebuilding Jerusalem and the Temple takes place under Ezra and Nehemiah, who have apparently learnt nothing from Israel's humbling and exile, except to despise other races and nations all the more. Under Ezra and Nehemiah marriage to foreigners is banned and all wives and children not of Jacob's line expelled from the territory. In effect they supposedly ethnically cleanse their 'God given' lands of impurity. But, as with all racists, their hate and ignorance prevent them from seeing the stupidity and futility of their prejudice.

For, as they expel all the Ammonites, Maobites, etc. it seems they are oblivious to their own history and the genetic line of their beloved David, whose great grandmother, Ruth, was herself from the land of Moab. The greatest irony, if these racists had been directing history just a few hundred years earlier, their idol could never have bee born!

Racism and ignoring/obscuring lineage are recurrent themes throughout the Bible. It is not solely Moses' unpalatable offspring who are glossed over, for Solomon receives the same treatment. Solomon, already part Moab, through his great-great-grandmother, had a thousand sexual partners from across the known world. He had at least one child, his heir, which the scribes were unable to wipe from history, but if he had one he must surely have had a thousand, or at least an extraordinarily large number, to intermingle with the line of Jacob: at its most influential.

Solomon is an embarrassment to the priests and their scribes. His tolerance, understanding, wisdom engendered harmony and peace, which of course undermines their very existence. They hate him and as a consequence manufacture pitiful and obvious lies in order to discredit his wisdom.

Yet, much of Solomon's wisdom is preserved, hidden beyond the “hallelujah” of Psalms, in amongst many manipulated and fabricated Proverbs:

“If you oppress poor people you insult the God who made them: but kindness shown to the poor is an act of worship.”

“It is better to be patient than powerful. It is better to win control over yourself than whole cities.”

“It is better, much better, to have wisdom and knowledge than gold and silver.”

“Hot tempers cause arguments, but patience brings peace.”

“If you want to be happy be kind to the poor: it is a sin to despise anyone. When you please the LORD, he will make your enemies into friends.”

“Better to eat a dry crust of bread with peace of mind than to have a banquet in a house full of trouble.”

“If you pay attention when you are corrected, you are wise.”

“Pride leads to destruction and arrogance to downfall.”

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. You will make him burn with shame, and the LORD will reward you.”

“The most stupid fool is better off than someone who thinks he is wise when he is not.”

“Human desires are like the world of the dead: there is always room for one more.”

And on and on: wisdom that would do credit to the Buddha, Lao Tzu or Jesus, all of whom were many centuries in Solomon's wake.

Ecclesiastes, following on, is also attributed to Solomon. He is depicted as the philosopher, sharing his wisdom with all: from children to monarchs:

“It is better to have only a little, with peace of mind, than to busy all the time with both hands, just trying to catch the wind.”

“Don't be surprised when you see that the government oppresses the poor and denies them justice and their rights. Every official is protected by the one over him and both are protected by still higher officials.”

“Someone who is always thinking about happiness is a fool. A wise person thinks about death.”

“It is better to have wise people reprimand you than to have stupid people sing your praises.”

“It is better to listen to the quiet words of a wise man than the shouts of a ruler at a council of fools.”

“It is good to be able to enjoy the pleasant light of day. Be grateful for every year that you live. No matter how long you live, remember that you will be dead much longer. There is nothing at all to look forward to.”

Ecclesiastes is followed by the Song of Solomon: love poems depicting the relationship between creator and creation.

Most of the remainder is prophets of doom for Israel's (and other nations') perpetual sinning, coming to a head in Ezekiel (34) as God recognises whomsoever he puts in power will abuse it, and culminating with Malachi from the fifth century B.C. and his and his prophesying of a saviour.

However, there is one curious little book that has a strange story to tell: the book of Job. Written between three and six centuries B.C. It is placed, almost inexplicably, before Psalms and Solomon's Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and The Song of Solomon (aka The Song of Songs), dating from many centuries earlier.

It is the tale of Job, a devout and pious man, God's most faithful of servants, whom God has rewarded with a comfortable and prosperous life. Satan, at this moment in time still one of God's angels, suggests to God that the only reason that Job is faithful is because God has rewarded him so well. God disagrees and accepts Satan's wager to prove Job's faithfulness.

Satan destroys Job's livelihood and family, infects him with a terrible skin disease and leaves him in poverty to be abused by one and all. Job refuses to condemn God but instead appeals to God's wisdom for justice. God wins his bet and rewards Job with twice as much livestock and an even bigger family.

Well and good, but hardly compensation for the trauma and loss of his original family, which, if God had consulted his Divine Plan as to Job's faithfulness, he would never have had to suffer.

This is a repetitive theme throughout the Old Testament: God's lack of insight. For, in the beginning, before heaven and earth were created, God devised a plan, in meticulous detail, for humanity's journey: and then, it seems, wiped it from his consciousness.

From Eve and Adam eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge/life (which also prompts the question: if God did not want humanity to sample its fruit's, why on earth put it there?), through Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah etc. God is perpetually infuriated with his creation, following his divine plan, down to the last blink!

Yet this pattern repeats constantly, continually manifesting through Judges and exemplified by Samson, the hairy whoring dimwit: all brawn, no brain who is led by his penis. The kings are little different, from the arrogant Saul, through the bloodthirsty David, excepting perhaps Solomon, it is a woeful tale of greed, arrogance, intolerance and abuse. Completely unsuitable rulers.

The priests and prophets are no better, abusing their power and position for favour and fortune, and as intolerant and arrogant as the kings themselves: Ezra and Nehemiah offer documented proof. (It must therefore also be accepted, God's appointment of scribes will have been equally unenlightened.)

All to be followed by God's exasperation and wrath for following his Divine Plan, when there can be no reason for anger, except God's own unconsciousness. A strange conundrum: God, all powerful, all knowing, all loving, yet, also, blind and ignorant, and constantly angry. What can it all mean?

And then we come to Job, God's most faithful servant, following his Commandments to the letter. And for a bet, a challenge to his ego, from Satan, God displays all the characteristics of a psychopath, without compassion or remorse. Even as Job appeals to God's consciousness to consult his Divine Plan, which God must acknowledge, God's attitude is: “be grateful for your miserable little life worm”.

Well, true enough, at least theoretically, but hardly the attitude of a supremely enlightened being: for in reality it is more akin to the perspective of a thug.

Jung argues that in the beginning God appears more as an unconscious creative force, swishing this way and that, constantly it seems making good mistakes and misjudgements and in the process piling untold misfortune and suffering on his newly formed creation (created in his own image).

Jung also suggests God's consciousness evolves in parallel with man's: as man's understanding grows, so it seems does God's. But to this point, the Book of Job, God has nevertheless held the moral high ground, in that his brutality is a consequence of man's abuse of his power and position. Man's failure to observe the Commandments.

However, with God's treatment of Job that all changes. God behaves as an unconscious brute, while Job remains true and trusting in the wisdom of the LORD. God looses moral superiority to his creation, Job, who has more insight than the unconscious mind of God.

And for this, Jung argues, God owes humanity (not only 'the Chosen') a debt, and for which God must now recognise in man the potential for godhood. And, as such, as prophesied in Malachi, God must now appear in human form as the symbolic God-man, born of a union between heaven and earth: to save us from our sins.

But that is another story.

Vitam Impendere Vero
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09-01-2010, 10:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-01-2010, 10:46 PM by hilly7.)
#2
RE: The Bible Uncut
Good read. A lot of stuff I had forgotten and a lot I didn't know.

God and Lucifer fell out so to speak wen he challenged God's power and authority. So He kicked Him out.

Quote:Isaiah 14:12 (King James Version)

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

The reason God became mad and destroyed the earth with the flood though was because Satan had attempted to show Him up by creating his own people. His didn't work out too well though.
Genesis 6:2 (King James Version)

Quote:Genesis 6

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The angels that went down to earth and were not allowed back lived after the flood.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
This is the 2nd group of angels that left. These bred with humans and produced giants. Also, angels (being there at creation) had far more superior knowledge than man.
Quote: 30And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.

31But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.

32And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.

33And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Quote:10The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;

11Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims.

12The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them.
Quote:# Deuteronomy 3:13
And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.
Deuteronomy 3:12-14 (in Context) Deuteronomy 3 (Whole Chapter)
# Joshua 12:4
And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,
Joshua 12:3-5 (in Context) Joshua 12 (Whole Chapter)
# Joshua 13:12
All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.
Joshua 13:11-13 (in Context) Joshua 13 (Whole Chapter)
# Joshua 15:8
And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:
Joshua 15:7-9 (in Context) Joshua 15 (Whole Chapter)
# Joshua 17:15
And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
Joshua 17:14-16 (in Context) Joshua 17 (Whole Chapter)

So while many of these battles seem cruel, it was offensive moves towards aggressors of a different blood, not of God's creation but a mixture of God's and Satan's. One of eat or be eaten things.

More in another post...


It wasn't God that made mistakes but rather the heart of men that broke covenants with God. Temptation if you will from the evil side. Difference being was power with a weak mind and soul. IMHO, God appointed men to be in charge of the people seeing that people gave into Satan's offers. It sounds like one of those, "not me" things that one would do, but think for a moment how many things we have done or do that we gave into. I know I'm guilty.

Usually God picks out bad asses, then again, who better to show a change of heart that a once wicked person. The song Amazing Grace was written by one of the meanest men around at his time. Plus, who knows how to defeat evil better than someone who was evil?

As for Job, who knows. He is a testament of faithfulness. While God rewarded him here on earth, I'm sure after he died he was even more rewarded. People think that we will be reunited when we die with loved ones, and we will, but not as we are here. There is no dads, moms, sons, daughters, wives, husbands reunited like here on earth where love varies in degree. We are all the same and love each other the same. Then again, not all will be in Heaven, some will reside on the new earth. Ether way, everybody is equal and in need for nothing.

I guess that Job is more of a don't give up and don't give in type of hero. People often ask that God use them for His own purposes and never think that maybe they could be asking for the new Job. Job shows love for God just as God shows love for us. This world means nothing as we were not created for here.

A bit of a story if I might. When dad had his brain bleed almost 6 months ago and everything fell apart, ventilator caused pneumonia, Kidneys started to fail. One thing could not be fixed without killing the other. He laid there helpless for 8 days, mom had given permission to unhooked the ventilator. I asked God many times and wondered if that thing caused him to suffer more, so did mom. We worried that it had caused him to suffer more. Time and time again I must have prayed about that. I wanted to know so bad. Last week they done surgery on my throat to biopsy it. When I awoke the nurse rushed over to me. I freaked out seeing this tube running through my mouth and into my throat. She asked me questions, just as we had done dad. I couldn't speak very well but shook my head, same as he had done. I knew, just as he did, what was being asked and said, yet I was unable to speak properly so I resorted to nods. Then she pulled the tube out of my throat. I began to breathe on my own but found out there was no pain with it in or pulling it out.

Now that may, when written down seem a cruel way for God to answer, but it has given me and mom peace finally. It was worth every minute of the fear and the anxiety I had to know what dad had been through and more importantly, what he had not.
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09-02-2010, 12:17 AM,
#3
RE: The Bible Uncut
hey man, some interesting points, and thanks for the personal story. much to think upon so won't do a depth reply yet, and also some things i can see i'm going to need to incorporate.

a couple of points though, i'm not saying God "made mistakes" as such, mistake is a human concept but God is portrayed as perpetually angry because of how nations and individuals behave and as a reason for the consequent, subsequent destruction... hmm... thinking, thinking, thinking... perhaps i need to look more at the portrayal of God (watch this space) ... but nevertheless so many incidents are portrayed as the result of humanity's failure to live up to expectations, which, given the Divine Plan must have been completely expected. with regard to Satan, he is also a product of God, and God by his very nature, being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, knows Satan's every move even before he thinks it - if that is, God were to consult his original plan.

"who knows how to defeat evil better than someone who was evil?" someone who is good Big Grin although tecnically i don't accept the existence of 'evil', it is a value judgement, and i am told not to judge but to learn. how can something be evil if i learn from it?

and sure, all of us give into primordial emotions generated in our guts and genitals, when our hearts and minds are saying the opposite - yes, guilty as charged, the temptations of 'Satan', but that also cannot be exempt from God's plan - can it?



Vitam Impendere Vero
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09-02-2010, 01:28 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-02-2010, 01:36 AM by hilly7.)
#4
RE: The Bible Uncut
Honestly I don't know. I heard a preacher on the radio say that if we understood God he would not be worthy of our worship. He elaborated a bit deeper but it made sense. I had never thought of it that way. We marvel at what we don't quite understand.

For people like me I see why God allows what is at first perceived as bad, not that I'd like it to continue though. Icon_biggrin For Job, who knows. It is almost like he is a chess piece to play with. I did notice though that God never interferes while it is being done, so the play was one sided.

Years ago, before corruption was in the church I went to as a kid (I think it has went bad to the original now) I heard that this world belongs to the Devil (Satan). Again, I never understood it, but somehow it makes sense. Why God doesn't just stop him I have no idea. I don't judge a person, or try not to anyway. I do judge deeds and actions and I do not see shades of gray. I use to see them, but that all changed after the heart attack. There is evil all around but I have never met anybody that is pure evil. Yet I have looked into the eyes of people that have no soul. I never look people in the eye as I causally pass anymore.

On the pay in dollar amount for your sin it doesn't work that way in Southern or Primitive Baptist churches. They pass along an offering plate (hinting at 10%) but if you can give you do, if not you don't. The sins you have committed are between you and God. Money taken up is used to pay the bills (electric, preacher, etc) and the church I went to as a child they pay electric bills, repair houses, buy and give out food, to whomever is in need with the money. They attach no strings and it doesn't matter what if any faith a person is, just that they are truly in need.

In the Old Testament God is mad a lot, then again, I guess He would be seeing what He created and loves come under attack. Freewill, maybe that is a way to separate the wheat from the chaff. This one lady I go to, a Soothsayer (yea I know, Christians aren't suppose to do that, lol) says that life is a series of crossroads. We cannot go backwards, back up a little, but not much. We cannot stand idle, least we get run over. At that crossroads we have a choice to make. Left turn, right turn, or straight ahead. God knows the outcome of each way we go. When she tells the future she says that she can only tell what the outcome will be on a certain path, but we have the power to change what she sees. She has been spot on each time with very specific details. Bone chilling at times.
I just happen to think as I reread what I wrote. As a parent you will understand this. When are children do wrong we get angry. Punishment in the form of a butt busting, time out, etc. But there is a punishment when they do wrong. While we may be angry we are also hurt and disappointed at the same time. We correct the child not out of hate or anger but out of love for that child. This is true especially if they are involved in something that could or will hurt them.

Those without children may or may not understand this, hopefully they will. It doesn't mean that we don't love them, we do, and will always love them. We hold dear the joy of when we first saw them, all the while loving them enough to say no.
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09-05-2010, 01:27 AM,
#5
RE: The Bible Uncut
hi hilly, some comments on your comments:


hilly Wrote:Honestly I don't know. I heard a preacher on the radio say that if we understood God he would not be worthy of our worship. He elaborated a bit deeper but it made sense. I had never thought of it that way. We marvel at what we don't quite understand.

Yes, that's what Tony deMello says, and he cites St. Thomas Aquinas in validation, who said: there are three ways of knowing God: (1) in the creation, (2) in God’s actions through history, and (3) in the highest form of the knowledge of God: to know God tamquam ignotum (to know God as the unknown).

It is always those who profess to know who start trouble. Personally I don't accept anyone's view of God.

hilly Wrote:For people like me I see why God allows what is at first perceived as bad, not that I'd like it to continue though. For Job, who knows. It is almost like he is a chess piece to play with. I did notice though that God never interferes while it is being done, so the play was one sided.

true

hilly Wrote:Years ago, before corruption was in the church I went to as a kid (I think it has went bad to the original now) I heard that this world belongs to the Devil (Satan). Again, I never understood it, but somehow it makes sense. Why God doesn't just stop him I have no idea. I don't judge a person, or try not to anyway. I do judge deeds and actions and I do not see shades of gray. I use to see them, but that all changed after the heart attack. There is evil all around but I have never met anybody that is pure evil. Yet I have looked into the eyes of people that have no soul. I never look people in the eye as I causally pass anymore.

Personally I think the church was founded on corruption. Although i'm also not denying the deterioration.

The world given to Satan? Personally i'm not buying that, there is just too much beauty and wonder all around for this to be the case. I'm not denying worldly goods are the tools of Satan, to lead us into temptation, but, that is not the same. God cannot do anything about it because it is all part of the divine plan, in that he set it in motion, in his infinite wisdom, and the wickedness must run its course. But it is up to us to choose what part we play within.

hilly Wrote:On the pay in dollar amount for your sin it doesn't work that way in Southern or Primitive Baptist churches. They pass along an offering plate (hinting at 10%) but if you can give you do, if not you don't. The sins you have committed are between you and God. Money taken up is used to pay the bills (electric, preacher, etc) and the church I went to as a child they pay electric bills, repair houses, buy and give out food, to whomever is in need with the money. They attach no strings and it doesn't matter what if any faith a person is, just that they are truly in need.

I'm not denying there are good people in the church, I have met many, but I think church collections are tantamount to bribery, built on guilt and false promises. Let the preachers (and politicians) starve and let their glittering towers crumble to dust. They who profess to know, and shape society accordingly, should be the very last people to reap any reward. It is only when every last member of their congregation (electorate) has been fed, housed and comforted that they can be said to have earned their wage. “Liars and Hypocrites” Jesus called them. I see nothing to suggest any difference now – do you?

hilly Wrote:In the Old Testament God is mad a lot, then again, I guess He would be seeing what He created and loves come under attack. Freewill, maybe that is a way to separate the wheat from the chaff. This one lady I go to, a Soothsayer (yea I know, Christians aren't suppose to do that, lol) says that life is a series of crossroads. We cannot go backwards, back up a little, but not much. We cannot stand idle, least we get run over. At that crossroads we have a choice to make. Left turn, right turn, or straight ahead. God knows the outcome of each way we go. When she tells the future she says that she can only tell what the outcome will be on a certain path, but we have the power to change what she sees. She has been spot on each time with very specific details. Bone chilling at times.

Big Grin what can I say?

hilly Wrote:I just happen to think as I reread what I wrote. As a parent you will understand this. When are children do wrong we get angry. Punishment in the form of a butt busting, time out, etc. But there is a punishment when they do wrong. While we may be angry we are also hurt and disappointed at the same time. We correct the child not out of hate or anger but out of love for that child. This is true especially if they are involved in something that could or will hurt them.

Man, i've had such a cushy time with Sebastian, I remember getting angry with him once when he was about two (although tbh that was more to do with the pressure I was under at work) but i've not had any cause since then Smile and now he is old enough to take responsibility for his own decisions. Actually I try not to be angry about anything, no matter how despicable (that doesn't mean I can't feign anger at the right moment, particularly here). I think anger gets in the way of seeing clearly: and it also denies the divine wisdom of God's plan.

hilly Wrote:Those without children may or may not understand this, hopefully they will. It doesn't mean that we don't love them, we do, and will always love them. We hold dear the joy of when we first saw them, all the while loving them enough to say no.

yes, agreed but I also think, ultimately, our goal is to have such love for all of God's creation: even Tony Blair & JazzRoc – man, have I got a long way to go Big Grin

I can't comment too much on your original observations, except to say I think you and I have very different perspectives on God Big Grin and that you've prompted an enormous rethink and rewrite. Thank you.

And re your Isaiah quote:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

NIV
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Good News
King of Babylonia, bright morning star, you have fallen from Heaven! In the past you conquered nations but now you have been thrown to the ground,

I don't know what to believe Big Grin

thanks again hilly



Vitam Impendere Vero
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09-05-2010, 03:30 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-05-2010, 03:31 PM by hilly7.)
#6
RE: The Bible Uncut
Sorry, I was caught up in the moment and distracted.

Quote:Personally I think the church was founded on corruption. Although i'm also not denying the deterioration.

The world given to Satan? Personally i'm not buying that, there is just too much beauty and wonder all around for this to be the case. I'm not denying worldly goods are the tools of Satan, to lead us into temptation, but, that is not the same. God cannot do anything about it because it is all part of the divine plan, in that he set it in motion, in his infinite wisdom, and the wickedness must run its course. But it is up to us to choose what part we play within.

I think you hit the nail on the head my friend. Totally agreed and well put. I look back for some strange reason and think Jesus started the church, and that just isn't true.

This world (worldly things) are Satan's, not the beauty God created. I maybe should have went a bit deeper. My fingers and mouth often outdo my little mind, Icon_biggrin Distraction if you will. Money, fame, material goods, not the things created by God. Not of the world but in the world.

Quote:I'm not denying there are good people in the church, I have met many, but I think church collections are tantamount to bribery, built on guilt and false promises. Let the preachers (and politicians) starve and let their glittering towers crumble to dust. They who profess to know, and shape society accordingly, should be the very last people to reap any reward. It is only when every last member of their congregation (electorate) has been fed, housed and comforted that they can be said to have earned their wage. “Liars and Hypocrites” Jesus called them. I see nothing to suggest any difference now – do you?

No, actually I don't in most cases, but in a few I have seen more of a change back to what it once was. At the little church I went to as a kid nobody was paid in the church, even those that built the actual building. The preacher has regular job that allows him to take off when needed to attend funerals and he visits the sick when he is off work. My wife went to a similar church. Funny, these are called "primitive" and looked down on by the organized religion. Even in these though I see many that preach one thing yet live another.


Quote:Man, i've had such a cushy time with Sebastian, I remember getting angry with him once when he was about two (although tbh that was more to do with the pressure I was under at work) but i've not had any cause since then Smile and now he is old enough to take responsibility for his own decisions. Actually I try not to be angry about anything, no matter how despicable (that doesn't mean I can't feign anger at the right moment, particularly here). I think anger gets in the way of seeing clearly: and it also denies the divine wisdom of God's plan

I heard a preacher one time say that every time we got mad, the devil was happy. He must have been real pleased with me over the years and still is at times. Confused

Quote:I can't comment too much on your original observations, except to say I think you and I have very different perspectives on God Big Grin and that you've prompted an enormous rethink and rewrite. Thank you.

We do and we don't at the same time. I know I have learned a lot from you over the time we have been friends. We each hold the same quarter which has two sides and while we can see both sides, often it is hard to turn the quarter over to seen the other side. hate to use that as an analogy. Blush

You have a few different translations quoted. I usually refer back to the oldest I can find that is in English. I figure the closer to the original the better the copy. Icon_biggrin That is also the greatest tool Satan has at his disposal.


Isaiah 14:12

Isa.14[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ לָאָרֶץ, חוֹלֵשׁ עַל-גּוֹיִם

הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר

הֵילֵל haylal - Lucifer - parsed down to the yud root in Hebrew - ילל wail, howl, lament

בֶּן שָׁחַר Ben-sha-har - son of the black of the morning

Even though these versions of the Bible below are corrupt, they have this verse correct.

All the Bibles below at least say "Lucifer".



DBY Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! Thou art cut down to the ground, that didst prostrate the nations!



DRA Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?



GNV Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heauen, O Lucifer, sonne of the morning? and cutte downe to the grounde, which didest cast lottes vpon the nations?



KJG Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



LXE Isaiah 14:12 How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth.



NKJ Isaiah 14:12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!



WEB Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! {how} art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



RWB Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



--------------------------------

These Bibles below turned Satan into the "morning star" which is Yeshua. This is very evil. Also the words "star and day star" are not in the Hebrew scriptures.





ASV Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!



BBE Isaiah 14:12 How great is your fall from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the earth, low among the dead bodies!





ESV Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!





JPS Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!



NAB Isaiah 14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!



NAS Isaiah 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!



NAU Isaiah 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!



NET Isaiah 14:12 Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! You've been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!



NIB Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!



NIV Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!



NJB Isaiah 14:12 How did you come to fall from the heavens, Daystar, son of Dawn? How did you come to be thrown to the ground, conqueror of nations?



NLT Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world.



NRS Isaiah 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!



RSV Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!



TNK Isaiah 14:12 How are you fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of Dawn! How are you felled to earth, O vanquisher of nations!



YLT Isaiah 14:12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.



Please, if you are reading English, get a KJV

Shalom

http://oneinmessiah.net/SatanLucifer.htm




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09-06-2010, 01:14 AM,
#7
RE: The Bible Uncut
wow hilly, thanks for that, and very interesting. i've copied it and will study it and thanks particularly for the Hebrew. KJV you reckon? i was always suspicious of that version, because it was written for the reigning monarch (although actually i'm suspicious of all versions). i downloaded the KJV and NIV because i'm reading the Good News version and it's immediately obvious the translation is more than a little dubious (but it was my brother's, given to him in Kashmere by the people tending him when he had hepatitis) but for the most part what i'm after is a broad outline of people and events, and God's supposed/portrayed reaction, so i think at least it supplies the gist. i will however get a hard copy of KJV for more in depth/detailed study.

more to follow, i've just got in and must hit the sack, and Mum has a whole list of tasks for me for tomo, which will probably run to the whole week - oh the joys of being back in England (7th october my apt with the consultant),

Namaste,

Vitam Impendere Vero
Reply
09-06-2010, 01:31 AM,
#8
RE: The Bible Uncut
(09-06-2010, 01:14 AM)mothandrust Wrote: wow hilly, thanks for that, and very interesting. i've copied it and will study it and thanks particularly for the Hebrew. KJV you reckon? i was always suspicious of that version, because it was written for the reigning monarch (although actually i'm suspicious of all versions). i downloaded the KJV and NIV because i'm reading the Good News version and it's immediately obvious the translation is more than a little dubious (but it was my brother's, given to him in Kashmere by the people tending him when he had hepatitis) but for the most part what i'm after is a broad outline of people and events, and God's supposed/portrayed reaction, so i think at least it supplies the gist. i will however get a hard copy of KJV for more in depth/detailed study.

more to follow, i've just got in and must hit the sack, and Mum has a whole list of tasks for me for tomo, which will probably run to the whole week - oh the joys of being back in England (7th october my apt with the consultant),

Namaste,

Glad to help out my friend. I actually learned on that too, lol. Funny, the more I know the more I find out I don't know.

The book I am reading, Apollyon Rising 2012 is pretty strange yet in dept on generations so far. It is at http://www.apollyonrising2012.com The author ties in all beliefs and how they all connect, and the NWO are using religion. So far, while I don't agree 100% with him, he seems to document it all well. made me stand back and say oh no. He also cites that it is possible that the USA will be where the Antichrist comes from, totally different from what is thought and taught here in the states.

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