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When does the unborn baby feel pain?
12-17-2010, 08:16 PM,
#31
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
Im not really liking how the government subsidizes abortions with taxpayer "monies" either. It is casting off ultimate responsibility onto the backs of others. If "Person A" wants to murder their child, other people shouldnt have to pay for it, its not their responsibility, nor is it their place to get involved, even if its indirectly.
This is one issue I really dont understand about the so-called "left". I dont get how people can be so anti-establishment and yet make excuses and justifications for establishment funded murder regardless of any "age" or the question of choice. If we're going to base things on the often misperceived "right of choice", where does that end?
Do we now make justifications for the sadistic soldier killing innocents based on their choice to serve in the military and pull the trigger? Hey... its freedom of choice, right?
Or even better, what of the fruit of the choices made possible by the establishment itself? Injustice, Theft, War, Murder, Genocide. Do we justify those too based on freedom of choice?
"Listen to everyone, read everything, believe nothing unless you can prove it in your own research"
~William Cooper

DTTNWO!
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12-17-2010, 10:30 PM,
#32
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
(12-17-2010, 08:16 PM)SiLVa Wrote: Im not really liking how the government subsidizes abortions with taxpayer "monies" either. It is casting off ultimate responsibility onto the backs of others. If "Person A" wants to murder their child, other people shouldnt have to pay for it, its not their responsibility, nor is it their place to get involved, even if its indirectly.
This is one issue I really dont understand about the so-called "left". I dont get how people can be so anti-establishment and yet make excuses and justifications for establishment funded murder regardless of any "age" or the question of choice. If we're going to base things on the often misperceived "right of choice", where does that end?
Do we now make justifications for the sadistic soldier killing innocents based on their choice to serve in the military and pull the trigger? Hey... its freedom of choice, right?
Or even better, what of the fruit of the choices made possible by the establishment itself? Injustice, Theft, War, Murder, Genocide. Do we justify those too based on freedom of choice?

Great point...totally agree
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12-18-2010, 01:56 AM,
#33
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?

When does the soul incarnate into the body?

@ rsol, don't you have anything better to do during a 24h span? I've been reading your comments and you sound like an arrogant annoying know it all little bitch. Get a LIFE.
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12-18-2010, 09:31 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-18-2010, 09:36 AM by crystal.)
#34
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
(12-18-2010, 01:56 AM)zapoper Wrote: When does the soul incarnate into the body?
A very good question.

It seems we in the west are left in the dark to important issues as these.
The Vedas describes soul migration as a natural process and law in the universe. Ie: Spirit is eternal and attracts and manifests material manifestations.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: Canto 3:
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
Chapter 31

Lord Kapila’s Instructions on the Movements of the Living Entities
Quote:'Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman to assume a particular type of body.

PURPORT

As stated in the last chapter, after suffering different kinds of hellish conditions, a man comes again to the human form of body. In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semen of a man who is just suitable to become his father. During sexual intercourse, the soul is transferred through the semen of the father into the mother’s womb in order to produce a particular type of body. This process is applicable to all embodied living entities, but it is especially mentioned for the man who was transferred to the Andha-tāmisra hell. After suffering there, when he who has had many types of hellish bodies, like those of dogs and hogs, is to come again to the human form, he is given the chance to take his birth in the same type of body from which he degraded himself to hell.'
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12-18-2010, 06:41 PM,
#35
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
Good points brought up all around and we somehow managed to not get too personal an dogmatic with attacks for such a partisan and divisive issue.

Let's step back a bit and fit this into the larger scheme of social engineering of the masses by the few.

A LOT of money is being directed at advertising sex, associated sex with their product (from beer to lingerie to cars to milk to PETA to clothes to movies to video games to iPods to vacuums* to coffee**) education programs that condone sex when combined with certain products (birth control, condoms etc..).

   
* Sexy S&M German Vacuum Ad

** From The Taster's Choice Couple to this:    

Now children and society are geared to want sex more told it is normal to have it with multiple partners (even at once), shown that monotony is a only an option and extra marital sex is healthy, notches on the bedpost are a badge of honour and a tribute to male conquest, women having sex when ever with whomever is liberating (as long as her clique agrees).

Children are driving consumer dollars more and more from a combination of direct marketing, more kid geared products and the fact parents spend less time with them and feel guilty so they buy back their love. Education have more associated costs field trips, entertainment, sports .... Kids cost more now than ever.

The end result:
* more broken families
* more superficial relationships
* more selling of the free lifestyle (sans children commitments)
* more drive through sex and one night stands
* children are a financial liability not an asset like back in the farming days
* abortion is easy, discreet and more acceptable and this is magnified by it's prevalence even though it is pretty taboo to talk of it (thanks for having the courage to share your experience rsol)
* babies are not "green"
* families have a much higher work requirement to make ends meet
* elders are more crippled and senile and can't help in child rearing
* family is more distant geographically and emotionally
* communities are emotionally distant and no longer raise a group of kids like a clan
* less fathers, more distant fathers lower welfare buying power
* children have their empty parent's bedrooms to romp around in, condom's from the school and hundreds of thousands of porn clips to choose from for inspiration in fornication and they're often on more drugs (pharma and street), booze and all that.

= more unwanted babies

The doctor making suggestions is just tipping the carriage over the cliff statistics like there were more black abortion than births are about the whole culture.

There are HUGE profits to be made on the Baby Parts Market that encourages certain people to act in that interest abject to what is best for their client because - in fact - they have a bigger client waiting in the shadows.

There is also that whole Eugenics movement to keep populations down and the Shock Therapy angle in making broken people easier to program and manipulate by an authority -- but on the other hand more people = more slaves or maybe not since we are in the robotic age and those resources may be determined more efficiently utilized as energy and material components for a more obedient mechanical servant to the so called 'elite'.

I hate to mangle post topics but addressing the Soul:
I have heard the Soul being referred to as a container for the Spirit and then the physical body being the human part to enact the Soul's will - the human mind + emotions are sensory feedbacks we have been gifted with that can give good and bad data for us to react to but the Spirit can see through that or at least on a higher level or at the very least at another angle to our Being. I subscribe to that idea myself.

Infinitely simple and likewise infinitely complex (like a fractal). Explore it if you wish my fellow Human Beings.
There are no others, there is only us.
http://FastTadpole.com/
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12-18-2010, 07:05 PM,
#36
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
I agree with the points raised by fasttadpole and the amusings of the hooters ex person - frighteningly true. The attack on the man, woman and child is subtle, extremely damaging but ever accepting for us as normal human beings to continue functioning on a survival animal level, never mind actually be our magnificent selves or explore our higher dimensions and gifts.
The outwardly displayed promiscuity and lack of morals has actually made people more miserable than ever. Never achieving the constructed photoshop image of true love or intimacy becuause of all the distance and alienation that our divide and rule masters have instilled in us.
Ask any parent and they will tell you that parenting is working, but with more rewards than the average corporate slave job.
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12-18-2010, 09:35 PM,
#37
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
(12-18-2010, 07:05 PM)crystal Wrote: Never achieving the constructed photoshop image of true love or intimacy becuause of all the distance and alienation that our divide and rule masters have instilled in us.

like our little girls being fed this ..
   

that evolves to this ..
   

.. and our boys too
   

even the little tykes fresh from the womb...
   

This speaks for itself - but the moron presenter makes light of it - shouldn't we be outraged?




Whatever the case -- protect your kids best you can and get them to think for themselves and help them to realize when they are being programmed.

   
photo find credit: lenonhonorfilms.com
There are no others, there is only us.
http://FastTadpole.com/
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12-19-2010, 01:57 AM,
#38
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
I used to think the existence of a soul, continuance of consciousness beyond death, was no more than a scam, perpetrated by tptb to keep the masses in servitude while they played 'fast and loose'. I am not discounting this as a possibility (certainly to outward appearance this is so, we only have to consider God's truly appalling choice of leaders to confirm it), however, the picture this paints of our future, now the masses have acquired the same habits, for me, is just too horrible to contemplate.

It appears that we are the most repulsive species, without a care for our environment or our actions. Careless, arrogant, ruthless, either to head into space, gobbling planets and star systems as we go, fighting 'evil' whenever encountering phenomenon beyond our understanding, or, which is far more likely (and preferable), eating ourselves here on earth.

Accepting evolutionist arguments, we developed from some primordial slime, into simple organisms feeding, reproducing, eventually to develop defence and attack mechanisms, and, then sexual reproduction, sort of, 'the reptile brain': feeding, fucking, fighting, that's all it knows: lay eggs and scarper. Through hundreds of million years, creatures took on fur coats, and produced offspring that required some sort of rearing. Eventually we get to primates, living in social units, and potentially, as with chimps and bonobos, rearing beyond the generation.

And then there are humans, who had undoubtedly mastered the social behaviour of the most sophisticated primates, but, having discovered God does not exist, seem determined to fast-track it back to the reptile, or beyond. (NOTE: this is no criticism of anyone here, this is an observation on our degrading society, and the motive forces harnessed through PR to drive the subconscious: guts and genitals trump hearts and minds, every time). And when we consider the people in power, and any of those lining up to replace them, church, state, corporation, wherever. Capitalism will eat itself, and I fear, a goodly percentage of their adherents (willing or otherwise) in the process.

Perhaps this is the future of any species evolving language: where words replace Truth, with a representation of Truth, and in the process become prey the most manipulative deceivers, leading to this becoming an asset for survival. If you've read any Dawkins, it should be pretty obvious what happens from there.

So did man evolve solely to destroy himself? Some genetic freak that got above itself? Well, I'm not denying the possibility. But, when I consider the world and its wonders, perhaps over a spliff and a sunrise, I can't help but feel, there are the hands of something far smarter than Richard fucking Dawkins at play in this symphony.

So what were we put on earth for, to feed and breed? Why bother with evolution at all?!Oh yeah, cuz wivaut evalushun we wudnt hav X fucter on the telly LOL

I make my choice, I take life to be a journey, full of learning experiences (the most painful always of most value) as I develop my understanding along the way. So perhaps death will be closure, (tbh the way I feel, trapped where I am, that seems not such a bad option) but then again, if there were perhaps something beyond, it seems a shame not to have invested my talents as the master would have wished Wink Not that it looks like I'm getting any return Big Grin wtf, at least it's an interesting journey.

To quote my favourite thinker from the last two millennia:

Jean-Jacques Rousseau Wrote:If God exists, It is perfect. If It is perfect, It is wise, powerful and just. If It is wise and powerful all is good; if It is just and powerful my soul is immortal. If my soul is immortal, thirty years of life are nothing for me and are perhaps necessary to the maintenance of the universe. If I am granted the first proposition, the subsequent one can never be shaken.

And, incidentally, to get us back on track, he had five (or was it six?) kids, all of which he put into an orphanage Big Grin

nice images FT
Vitam Impendere Vero
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12-19-2010, 02:57 AM,
#39
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
mothandrust Wrote:So what were we put on earth for, to feed and breed?
It looks to me like we are here to understand LOVE.

I didn't get it yet and I'm sick of coming into this hell hole life after life. LOL

Nice comment mothandrust, thanks!
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12-19-2010, 10:14 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-19-2010, 10:28 AM by crystal.)
#40
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
Those images sum it up really.
Yes Idea love. Love occurs always between at least two. Some would say the ultimate is between the individual and The creator.

What are the consequences of hiding information about the soul from people?

1,A population of body conscious people, materialistic, hedonistic, not caring about the infliction of pain on others because of later consequences or of future incarnations (animalistic or worse - reptillian)
2 Less spending of time in useless careers to gather money to spend on the body and extensions of the body, makeup, clothes, muscle building, cars and iphones.
3, More time persuing interests which are in the hope of decorating the body and making it comfortable, therefore keeping people dumbed down and spiritually dead.
4 More attachement to this world and therefore no interest in finding out whats beyond it.
5 More lost children who then have more lost children who think this life is simply about harming and suffering.
6 More suffering and more control for those who actually have information about soul migration and reincarnation.

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12-19-2010, 03:27 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-19-2010, 05:16 PM by rsol.)
#41
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
Quote:It looks to me like we are here to understand LOVE.

cant eat love cant fuck love cant shelter under love. you can love all you want but without food, water and a place to sleep without being eaten, its worthless.

love is a luxury only a few animals get to experience.

you look at life in such a fanciful way. you have that luxury because you are not constantly thinking what you have to kill to get some food. all this is laid out to you as a map that leads to nowhere.

you are here. you have purpose but its just not that interesting. you can make your life more interesting however. nothing wrong with thinking out of the box. but when those dreams interfere with someone else, thats when im looking to put my foot down.

This is about abortion, i mean hey if you want to be altruistic about the whole thing, your mate god is gonna welcome this "pure soul" with open arms...
you should be encouraging this....


Your danger is working off assumption.

the universe has a purpose, we don't know what it is so we MUST find out the purpose....already establishing the purpose of existence in your mind. that's because you consider this all to be impossible.
NOTHING seems a perfectly reasonable thing. there must be a beginning and an end. it happens to us to it must happen to existence...all assumption.

The very idea of there being nothing in existence is the unprovable concept. even the big bang theory is based on this. all the measurable data we can detect comes from this initial singularity. no one ever questions there was nothing before.......more assumption. coincidence is not miraculous. its is CAUSE AND EFFECT.

until we start knowing what there is rather than concentrating on what we think it would be nice to be, we will always be stuck in circles, orbiting our own egos. ive been told im arrogant for what ive said, i consider anyone considering themselves on some special quest from some unseen entity to have the most arrogant opinion of themselves.

We make laws to make ourselves feel better, sometimes at others expense, it mostly to make us feel better rather than punishing whoever has "wronged" us. if you banned abortions from conception it would not stop people having abortions. your taxes wouldn't change a dime and a few republicans would seem like heroes. All you would do is have dangerous, complicated, painful abortions, babies dumped in rivers, women die while the baby is born motherless. all this so you can feel better about yourself........worth it?
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12-20-2010, 01:54 AM,
#42
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
(12-19-2010, 03:27 PM)rsol Wrote: i consider anyone considering themselves on some special quest from some unseen entity to have the most arrogant opinion of themselves.
agreed, if they think they are unique in this. however if they think this holds true for every spark of creation i don't see why that needs to be interpreted as arrogance. (and i don't think you're arrogant. opinionated, yes, but i'm also aware you put a lot of thought into those opinions, whether i agree with them or not)

(12-19-2010, 03:27 PM)rsol Wrote: We make laws to make ourselves feel better, sometimes at others expense, it mostly to make us feel better rather than punishing whoever has "wronged" us. if you banned abortions from conception it would not stop people having abortions. your taxes wouldn't change a dime and a few republicans would seem like heroes. All you would do is have dangerous, complicated, painful abortions, babies dumped in rivers, women die while the baby is born motherless. all this so you can feel better about yourself........worth it?
you and i don't make laws, they are made by elites, in order to control, and theive. but i absolutely agree re what would happen if abortion was made illegal. and, regardless of what i think, it is none of my business, nor anyone else's, as to how another navigates their path through life.

it is people telling others how to behave that creates the problems in the first place.

Vitam Impendere Vero
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12-20-2010, 09:11 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-20-2010, 02:19 PM by rsol.)
#43
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
"you and i don't make laws, they are made by elites, in order to control"

I once again disagree. there are more people in parliment than just corperate cock suckers, in america i would suggest more so. however its the LAW that decides this and the LAW is written through experience. Recently european law is trumping irish law as they ban abortions and are bing sued through european law as HER human rights are affected. This is our roe vs wade.

Control what? birth rates? telling someone they have a choice to abort is not a control point. giving a woman NO control of whether she has a baby or not. THAT is a control point. Contraception has empowered women. It was given them the chance to decide if they want to be a housewife or not. And yes it IS that simple.

This really revolves around sexual behaviour. The principle of abstinence works great in a world without contraception or a safe and managed miscarrage, which is what a chemical abortion means. abstinence works. even in this day and age it still works. the fact that some girls get themselves knocked up isnt new. They dont need to be shamed into marrying some guy they hardly know or bring the baby to term then drop it over a bridge. im sorry if THAT control point doesnt exist any more

A simple medical procedure which is not bad if you catch it early. Your interpretation regards it as murder. We remove tonsils and appendix. these are what your god "gave" us, i dont see anyone screaming for that to stop.....

My life is fine by the way. i dont have to try an survive with my gf and child on little to no wages in unaffordable times. things could be worse. abortion has improved it. if that hurts anyone here i suggest you look at what you are prepared to forgive...

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12-20-2010, 07:03 PM,
#44
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
rsol, there was never a law made that wasn't about control, and there was never a law made that wasn't validated through authority, and violence. That's what law does, it takes away the decision waking process from the individual and puts it in the hands of authority. Authority, which is always, without exception, corrupt.

Laws are lies. Think for yourself, and accept responsibility for your actions. Nuff said.

And, the smattering of (relatively) honest politicians are no more than garnish, they hold no sway over the motivations of controlling interests.
Vitam Impendere Vero
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12-20-2010, 07:14 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-20-2010, 07:16 PM by rsol.)
#45
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
Quote:rsol, there was never a law made that wasn't about control, and there was never a law made that wasn't validated through authority, and violence. That's what law does, it takes away the decision waking process from the individual and puts it in the hands of authority. Authority, which is always, without exception, corrupt.


come on moth...... i know you are cleverer than that. you know nothing is so simplistic.

Most law is about property granted. this is the controls. There isnt a law that makes abortion mandatory.
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