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When does the unborn baby feel pain?
09-24-2010, 07:15 PM,
#16
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
what about the sperms? aren't they people too? or do they have half-souls?
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09-29-2010, 03:41 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-29-2010, 03:44 AM by capmtripps.)
#17
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
Having taken many philosophy classes, an introductory ethics course touched the abortion issue, even if only cursorily.

To consider a fetus as a potential human might be similar to considering a potential human between me and the girl across the street.

Maybe get some clairvoyants/regressive hypnotism sorta answer from people 'remembering' having been aborted...

Not trying to be an instigator or anything, but as far as 'non-aborted' lives are concerned, that is 'humans', I think many are more worthy of this inhumane treatment. All too many of these people never even live

rsol > If sperms had even half-souls I'd be a veritable Stalin over here...pumping off knuckle babies n all.
_____________

I was walking around the local University today, and a big orange sign in the walkway indicated that "PICTURES OF GENOCIDE AHEAD."

These pictures were of aborted fetuses, dead children in Rwanda, and grainy pictures ordained with swastikas and hexagrams, which I took to be their equation of the three issues: Rwanada, abortion, and the holocaust. First of all let me say how much this is fucking bullshit. Those events are hardly comparable by any measure. I kept my cool and kept walking, thankfully, as even if I'd engaged the issue in a civil sort of way I don't think it would have gone well. Where were the pictures of Iraqi children burned by white phosphorus? Or the Canadian genocide of indigenous populations for over a century? Oh, that's not the same thing... Those might be too touchy for these ignoranuses...

The whole campaign reminded me of a time I saw an anti-Israel protest outside of Chapters in Victoria, BC. The sensibly-minded person that approached me with cogent and salient information had a simple printed piece of paper, describing how Chapters had recently given the Israeli military 3 million dollars for an international recruitment campaign. The guy with the glossy brochure about how Israel/Palestine was nothing like apartheid jumped in between us and started yelling about how the calm and collected man was an anti-Semite.

The only person voicing any dissent to the 'lifers' publicly at the event I saw today was a guy with a sign saying "High-Fives for choice..." I wanted to say nice job to him but I decided it was best to steer clear of the entire debacle.

(please see my previous post if you're unsure of my position on the abortion issue...)

Peace and choice to all....even if abortion is murder....






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09-29-2010, 09:17 PM,
#18
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
rsol > If sperms had even half-souls I'd be a veritable Stalin over here...pumping off knuckle babies n all.

well, im sure. im just wondering why noone has been regressed to sperm level telling us of the tale they ended up in some girl's hairSmile


Abortion is not nice on the person doing it. forget the ones outside carrying signs. It seems very little of them care for the mother.


Its utmost arrogance to think you know what a deity wants.

More from hicks....
A birth is no more a miracle than eating a burger and a turd coming out of your ass, it a chemical, biological reaction.
Your not human till you're in my phone book. case closed.
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09-29-2010, 11:37 PM,
#19
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
(09-29-2010, 09:17 PM)rsol Wrote: rsol > If sperms had even half-souls I'd be a veritable Stalin over here...pumping off knuckle babies n all.

well, im sure. im just wondering why noone has been regressed to sperm level telling us of the tale they ended up in some girl's hairSmile

Abortion is not nice on the person doing it. forget the ones outside carrying signs. It seems very little of them care for the mother.

Its utmost arrogance to think you know what a deity wants.

More from hicks....
A birth is no more a miracle than eating a burger and a turd coming out of your ass, it a chemical, biological reaction.
Your not human till you're in my phone book. case closed.

Love the phone book one... I quote Hicks all the time in all sorts of conversations, and laugh to myself often enough in public to get funny looks.

Pro-Lifers murdering people?! If you're really so committed to the idea, why don't you lock arms in front of graveyards? 'She can't come in,' pro-lifers say. 'She was 93!' 'There's options..."

__________________________________________________

A member of my family used to perform said medical procedures (read, murders, if you like) and another doctor (read, murderer, if you like) at the same establishment had been shot by 7 bullets on 3 separate occasions. He (the one shot many times) was not motivated by blood sacrifice or sadistic murdering or anything of the like. He actually didn't like the whole process. He told me once that the only reason he did it was because working as an ER doctor he saved a young pregnant girl, same age as his daughter, that had been impregnated by her father originally, and then raped so badly that the abortion was necessary to save her life.

life over choice in that situation?

I'd like to hear sane responses.

Many people can imagine any sort of scenarios, but this one I heard straight from the horse's mouth, as it were, and hits closer to home. I think he actually turned down many 'patients' for just being irresponsible, saying that their choice was more akin to murder.

That's how I remember it about 13 years ago...

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12-16-2010, 01:03 AM,
#20
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
A UK government-funded study recently concluded that the unborn baby (‘fetus’) cannot feel pain in the first 24 weeks (a similar American study placed the threshold at 29 or 30 weeks).

Interesting - here's something on tape that proves that babies react to voices as early as 14 weeks. So as supportive as that is to the rights of a baby

Documentary :: Biology of Dads
http://concen.org/tracker/torrents-details.php?id=17794

Then NASA announced that (engineered?) bacteria were life in their recent big hyped announcement. Smelt eggs are life according to Schwarzenegger's array of Choke of the Water to protect the environment laws in California at the expense of human life. However late pregnancies are terminated without question and baby parts are harvested and sold for a premium**. Seems there is a double standard here.

Education, law and funding are slanted. So either have balance or keep government and money out of it. There is lots of eugenic PPP funding going on and this Bill Gates thread is the tip of the iceberg.

Anyone find a copy of Blood Money yet?

**
Quote:Baby Parts For Sale!
9/10/2010

Summary:

A coordinated high-tech industry functioning for the specific purpose of obtaining and selling high-quality fetal organs for research. A batch of eyes by UPS – 30 livers by FedEx. Partial birth abortions fuel this trade. Evidence of a very clear additional reason why they want these late-term abortions to continue. This is the one method that gives them intact fetal bodies from which they can obtain organs for research. The other method of late-term abortion, D&E (Dilatation and Evacuation), involves reaching up into the uterus and dismembering the live baby. This delivers pieces of macerated organs that are usually unsuitable for fetal research, transplantation etc. This may be motive for the vehement defense of the practice of Partial-Birth abortion.
Full Article: http://mrscottyl.blogspot.com/2010/09/baby-parts-for-sale.html
http://digg.com/news/world_news/baby_parts_for_sale
There are no others, there is only us.
http://FastTadpole.com/
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12-16-2010, 08:50 AM,
#21
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
http://www.helium.com/items/975627-how-music-can-help-plant-growth

plants seem to react to sound also. perhaps you should really be fighting for the rights of vegetables.
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12-16-2010, 09:52 AM,
#22
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
So true. Plants react to sound and even emotion.

The Secret Life of Plants, Soil and Nature - Tompkins & Bird Pack
http://concen.org/tracker/torrents-details.php?id=17210
http://concen.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=33179





.. but no that's not where I'm coming from .. just str8 facts to balance with media, education and culture trending. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. The beginning and end of my argument .. Decisions should be informed not manipulated.
There are no others, there is only us.
http://FastTadpole.com/
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12-16-2010, 11:03 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-16-2010, 11:10 AM by rsol.)
#23
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
yes i agree its not right that we massacre plants and vegetables for our own lustful greed. all that death just for a full belly. how dare we?

dont kill plants eat soil!! its good enough for them!

once it WAS illegal. that wasnt right. thats why the law changed through activism. Your problem is, for many others too. You care.

Bush cared, hitler cared. Its all you folks out there that "care" seem to cause all this upset. Right now, someone, somewhere is having an abortion. as i write these words, probably another one went as i finish this sentence. can you feel it? can you? really?
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12-16-2010, 03:11 PM,
#24
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
I think the biggest problem facing the world today is the general lack of respect for all living things. I am not some hippie, I do believe killing animals is alright in some instances. However, as part of a bigger system, humans should respect animals and other living organisms as such. If I throw my puppy into the forest, it is against animal rights laws. Animal abandonment can very from fine to imprisonment so why is killing a future baby (if it is an undeveloped fetus) not a crime? In California, you can hand your baby over to any government body with no questions asked. just give birth and walk away from it, if it is unwanted. There are plenty of people who can't have children who would love and raise the child right...
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12-16-2010, 09:03 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-16-2010, 09:37 PM by rsol.)
#25
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
so why not use unborn foetuses for food? that would calm the animal rights groups. im sure they provide a perfect blend of nutrients. oops where did the line go? oh yeah behind me...

Quote:"why is killing a future baby (if it is an undeveloped fetus) not a crime?"
first of all, your relativism it a little out of whack and ill tell you why....

do you think it should be a crime to neglect a baby? i do. do you think everyone in this world SHOULD reproduce? most importantly. do you think it should be illegal to have a baby you dont want? think carefully. are you not avoiding a future crime as well? should i shoot you before you shoot me?

Im not saying that a child is a crime. what im saying is, to allow a child to fall into the hands of a parent who didn't want the child in the first place, hasn't got their life together, cant afford to feed themselves never mind another. should they go to jail for saving this future child by killing a future baby? why should children be born as virtual orphans? worse even. bad enough growing up knowing your parents diedin some accident. its another to find out she didn't really want you at all and couldn't abort. are orphanages ever empty?

I must ask as we are here. is this a moral argument you are pushing or a religious view? yes you are correct, i will judge you accordingly. morals and religion can get confused. they can also be perverted.


AND. this is the most important thing......this is what many people have trouble with. reality.
Women have and have had (dont say that out loud) abortions, if its talked about in the bible you can bet its not a new thing on the block. they have them. everywhere....all the time...
Before the law came in. not just in the us but UK as well, its not a right more a managed request, there were abortion being performed illegally. everyone knew. everyone in the area who knew her knew. her boss didnt maybe or perhaps a parent. you get the idea of a secret abortion. so it was happening WHEN IT WAS ILLEGAL.

Can you feel where this is leaning? all you do is make criminals of people. you make the procedures that they will do regardless of the law, more dangerous for the women AND i suspect even WORSE for the unborn child. and when i say unborn child i don't mean foetus. I mean born at ANY age of choice. If its illegal you instantly lose control of the procedure. more pain for the child.

Making a law to prohibit something that occurs naturally, yes naturally. you can tell. because it happens. that's what nature is. everything we do is natural. animals eat their young. abortion is a little better. one more point or really counterpoint to many.........some would ask of the childs rights. what would the childs wish be? it doesnt have the choice of being born. ask any teenager.....
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12-16-2010, 10:52 PM,
#26
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
One big problem in all of this... for the first time, last year in America, more black babies were aborted than were born. If this continues, it will be the end of the human race at some point...look at China, they are looking at, at least a 20% population loss in the next 50 years. Also, giving birth does not force you to take care of a child. A person could give the child up for adoption. What about people who have multiple abortions? What about the morality that doctors take an oath to carry out moral actions yet engage in late term abortions, when the baby is well developed. What is the difference between that and putting a gun to a baby's head and blowing its fucking brains out? The result is the same. Plenty of people want children and are infertile. I say just give birth and give the child up for adoption rather than ending its life.

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12-17-2010, 10:36 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-17-2010, 11:33 AM by rsol.)
#27
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
first of all. china is losing 20% of 1billion+ people. FOR A REASON. tooooooo many!

Just because more babies are being aborted than born does not point to extinction. you said it yourself, they are still being born. judging from your words you react to this. you are obviously passionate about it. that is sort of your failing. wars, murder, muggings, accidents, miscarrages. people have a tendency to shuffle off this mortal coil on a regular basis. and for every person who cant conceive, 2 women down the road are pumping them out 10 to the dozen. Nature has self righting mechanisms. Laws prohibiting the course of nature rarely work. all that goes on and being upset about it leads to actions that make it worse.

its not the situation's fault you cant deal with it.

due to the pope not being to keen on contraception, african nations having a large polulation of catholics, an epidemic of AIDS has ensued. can i ask where morals come into play bearing children with virtually no imune system?

dont think me cold about children. im all for them. we get on. all i do know is raising children teaches you about yourself. it shows you just how blank a slate you really were.

Nature has its part to play in this. it is natural for a person to not wish for its children to perish. pretty obvious stuff. its written in our DNA. however as humans we have the burden of self awarness and planning. We live longer and use more than we need. This can and will make life more difficult for future generations to come. The idea of managing a population isnt a new concept. war is one way to go as we all know being on concen. its not the nicest way to go tho.

Ever since women have been able to choose when and where they give birth, populations are steady and prosperous. such prosperity can lead to people thinking a little less about god. can you see where this is leading?
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12-17-2010, 01:31 PM,
#28
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
Plain and simple... if more creatures die or are killed than are born, then eventually, there will be an extinction of the population of that species. It is a matter of simple math. Africa is fucked up for a reason. The strength of a country is only as strong as the people are willing to make it.

Also, what I want to point out is that as part of freedoms in America and what should be a world wide thing, people should be able to do what they want. However, I am totally against my tax money funding abortions. I am totally against abortions period. That doesn't mean I hate people who have them done. The problem is that the government is pushing abortion and don't think it isn't for a second.

I will give an example. My wife got pregnant. It started with extreme exhaustion, cravings, and morning sickness. I went to the store and picked up a home pregnancy test. It came out to be positive. So, we went to the doctor. The first visit, they just did their own test to make sure she really was pregnant. That also came out positive. The next thing that happened was the doctor sent me out of the room and asked my wife a couple different ways if she wanted to get an abortion. If followed as something like this "Do you want to keep the baby?", "Are you sure you want it?", "You know there are other options...". That continued until my wife just up and left. What the hell do you think that was about? Personally, I think it is fucking disgusting. Trying to influence someone to carry out an irreversible action that can have potentially negative effects in the person's future is fucked.

If you don't think that abortion is a serious issue then check out the following link... Suicide rates among women go up 248%.

http://www.afterabortion.org/news/suicide205.html

I am all for freedom of choice, but I hate choices being shoved down my throat...
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12-17-2010, 02:12 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-17-2010, 02:15 PM by rsol.)
#29
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
Quote:"if more creatures die or are killed than are born."
if a creature is being born in your equation, this instantly negates your extinction problem. think. more or less just means more or less.

religous dogma disguised as moral judgment has put african peoples at risk.

Quote:"I am totally against my tax money funding abortions"
you have to pay for your medical services as far as I was aware. does your tax money pay for births?

Quote:"I am totally against abortions period."
then dont have one.

Quote:"Trying to influence someone to carry out an irreversible action that can have potentially negative effects in the person's future is fucked. "
right back at you. i could use that sentence for my arguement, you dont want OTHERS to abort because of how YOU feel. regardless of you feelings, people will abort. you have the option of enjoying your child or spend your mental energy getting upset about the other guy. i think you have more priorities than that. Your happiness is not conducive to whether someone goes full term with their pregnancy, if it is.....the problem isnt the abortions or abortionists.

Quote:"I am all for freedom of choice, but I hate choices being shoved down my throat... "
you would prefer not to choose? its just a good job you wanted your kid. Or was it the fact that a doctor gave you options at first hearing of your pregnancy. i thought thats what doctors do.

if he was insisting you have an abortion with no reason you have all my sympathies. but judging from what your take on abortions are persay, i would suspect that the fact the option was given to you was enough to get you upset.

You missinterpret what i consider serious. when under law, something has to adhere to regulation. without this there is no controls and the worst cases of abortions will be more common.

women do commit suicide for all kinds of reasons. post natal depression doesnt just affect a women after full term pregnancies. I suspect guilt trips laid on them by others wouldnt help their state of mind either. many factors in life and just targeted one thing that upsets YOU wont fix it.

remember.....happiness is a state of mind, not a state of affairs. If others are responsible for your mood, YOU have no control over yourself.

In the UK you are tested. If there is no reason for you to abort, you will not be able to abort. its not a drive-through service.
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12-17-2010, 07:56 PM,
#30
RE: When does the unborn baby feel pain?
In America, it can be a drive through service as tax money does go to fund abortions. Where do you think Planned Parenthood gets its money? It's not all from donations. The US government directly funds abortion clinics. I don't know what the British gov't does, so I won't speak on it. The study of suicide for abortion is not about postpartum depression. Sure, there are a change in hormones, but if it was, wouldn't the same amount of pregnant women who gave birth end up killing themselves? That whole logic of "it's depression because of the hormone changes" really doesn't work, according to this study and others. So, I still have one question. In America, in some states, including California, if a mother gives birth to a child and she does not want it, then she can give the child away, no questions asks, even after her and her baby have left the hospital. This law was put in place to try to prevent people putting babies in dumpsters. Why is abortion needed in this case? I could understand if the woman had a risky pregnancy that could kill her or severely injure her.
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