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Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
09-13-2010, 04:02 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2010, 04:13 PM by JazzRoc.)
#76
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(09-13-2010, 03:22 PM)JFK Wrote: Or are you accusing them of being liars also?
They may not have been. What question were they asked?

All I know is that the materials claimed by Jones to be microspherules and/or thermite/thermate are those one WOULD expect to find in the circumstances of a high-speed collision with, and collapse of, a steel building. The initial FLASH of the colliding plane WAS vaporized steel and aluminum, and would have condensed to - microspherules. EVERY collision of steel against steel of the collapsing building would have made more.

Claiming that red oxide paint IS thermite makes Jones a liar. Do these other "scientists" do this?

There is an interesting flashback to the demise of the Hindenburg airship.
Its destruction was surely hastened by the fact that it was painted SILVER (finely-powdered aluminum) over a red oxide (iron) paint primer. You can SEE it burn.

To sum up, AIR was the source of "extra oxygen" - LOTS of it, blowing into the building as a shrieking gale, and all you miserable theorizers ought to find better things to do.

Understanding the real world would be a good start.


(09-13-2010, 03:49 PM)JFK Wrote: LOL... with the exception of the 2 express elevator shafts ( which happened to be opposite of the impact sides ), the rest were "compartmentalized" to within each of the 3 segments of the towers seperated by the mechanical floors.
It amazes me how little you see.
Six exposed and windowless floors interconnected by stairwells and liftshafts gives you a seventy-foot chimney - which a blast furnace would be proud to own. If you really cannot see the ferocity of the blazes of both towers was sufficient in itself...
The "compartmentalization" isn't cut across by the aircraft, is it?

Quote:Dismissing the relevant as irrelevant as usual, eh?
2nd place for the Massive Irony prize.

Quote:Another paper
IRRELEVANT.

Separated.
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09-13-2010, 04:17 PM,
#77
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
So you have a "thing" against Jones...

I noticed that you convieniently left out all the others who were involved in that paper... Almost as if you had not ever read it.

Here is the first page of the second paper I referenced, note the footnotes.

[Image: 1.png]

Are they liars as well ?
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09-13-2010, 04:29 PM,
#78
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(09-13-2010, 04:17 PM)JFK Wrote: So you have a "thing" against Jones...
He's a liar.

Quote:I noticed that you convieniently left out all the others who were involved in that paper... Almost as if you had not ever read it.
I also didn't read a paper on sandworms. They WEREN'T RELEVANT.

Quote:Are they liars as well?
The question isn't relevant.

While, without refuting it, you ignore the NIST report, it would seem utterly pointless for me to analyze with you the properties of thermite, the existence of which has not been established in WTC dust.

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09-13-2010, 04:43 PM,
#79
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
I ignore nothing JazzRoc. I have the NIST report, all 1.3 GB of it, and have read it all.

I refute their conclusions because they refused to test for explosives. Jones et.al. did not.

As far as the dust goes, perhaps you should re-read the R.J. Lee report ( assuming that you have read it in the first place )... All the elements are there.

Then perhaps you should read DANIEL PRENTICE, B.S.M.E.'s thesis titled "COMBUSTION BEHAVIOR OF SOL-GEL SYNTHESIZED ALUMINUM AND TUNGSTEN TRIOXIDE"
Not because it deals directly with thermate, but because it touches upon it in the introduction.

If you have not read something how the fuck can you say it is irrelevant ?
You are as bad as kevlar with his visions of a plane entering the WTC intact.
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09-13-2010, 05:04 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2010, 05:12 PM by JazzRoc.)
#80
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(09-13-2010, 04:43 PM)JFK Wrote: If you have not read something how the fuck can you say it is irrelevant?
Then perhaps that paper on sandworms IS relevant?

The explosives idea rules itself out 2 ways.

1. Nobody could could aim an airplane accurately to MATCH a remotely-operated explosion. The firing risks, either negative or positive, which might expose such a conspiracy, would be beyond contemplation.

2. Explosions weren't necessary to bring down any/all of the three buildings, anyway.

If you argue the explosives were necessary because there weren't any planes then you have to include the fifty thousand gallons of kerosine, the metal pouring, the body parts and aircraft pieces strewn everywhere.

THAT is why "thermite" is IRRELEVANT.

The whole theory smacks of being originated by people too uneducated to see its difficulties.

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09-13-2010, 05:45 PM,
#81
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
Not if you plant the thermite inside of the core columns 20-30 floors below the impact area and take out a 10 foot section of core.

The added weight to the top section would cause a collapse exactly as witnessed. ( the core pulling the top down )

By the way, you do realize that thermite/thermate is an incendiary and not an explosive ( unless confined ) do you not ?
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09-13-2010, 06:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2010, 06:30 PM by rsol.)
#82
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
JFK you have to remember that jazz only counts what he doesnt know as irrelevantSmile

I unsurprised but dissapointed that when asked for the colour of the molten metal pouring from the building he says "1000C"

When asked what 1000c is in colour he has no problem. dull red! shall i ask again? dull red....dull red....

JAZZ WHAT COLOUR CAN YOU SEE??? USE YOUR EYES NOT YOUR EGO!

just for a little more incite you have said correctly about aluminium and why you need to heat it extra hot "To make sure it doesn't freeze in the sprues and fills the mold."

Im not going to ask why jazz as its obvious. it cools faster. yet on that day it didnt. all the way down the same colour. and, at the risk of repetition....what colour was that jazz?

And please remember im the guy(along side JFK) debating Kev on the plane going "through" the outer walls. I know it might sting but have a look at what you are saying.
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09-13-2010, 08:43 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2010, 09:01 PM by JazzRoc.)
#83
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(09-13-2010, 06:26 PM)rsol Wrote: what colour was that jazz?
Yellow. Do you think aluminum cannot be heated until it is yellow?
That would be up to 1400-ish deg C.
I wonder if you understand the process of vision.
I can see an underlying color to aluminum, when in relative darkness, at the temperature I know it needs to be poured at, and which admittedly will be a couple of hundred degrees hotter than its pure melt temperature. I call it dull red.
The molten metal, visibly yellow in sunlit daylight, was obviously NOT steel because it didn't spark (like a "sparkler" firework, which behaves the way it does because of the iron powder of which it is composed), and it didn't smoke in the same way. There is much more of a "commotion" around molten steel than there is around molten aluminum.
I am sorry you are not familiar with the difference, but also grateful that the rest of us aren't so ignorant.


(09-13-2010, 05:45 PM)JFK Wrote: Not if you plant the thermite inside of the core columns 20-30 floors below the impact area and take out a 10 foot section of core.
If you allow ANY of the core steel to heat past its softening point there would be NO difference.
And the core steel overheated at EVERY CEILING LINE where there WAS a fire. What need thermite? Do you understand the engineering meaning of the word "to buckle"?

Quote:The added weight to the top section would cause a collapse exactly as witnessed. (the core pulling the top down)
And after you puncture the egg, you must make sure you get through the membrane.

Quote:By the way, you do realize that thermite/thermate is an incendiary and not an explosive (unless confined) do you not?
Then suck. See below.

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09-13-2010, 08:55 PM,
#84
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
Quote:
Quote: By the way, you do realize that thermite/thermate is an incendiary and not an explosive ( unless confined ) do you not?

Then suck.

Congratulations, you have made my ignore list.
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09-13-2010, 09:10 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2010, 09:18 PM by rsol.)
#85
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
Quote:Yellow. Do you think aluminum cannot be heated until it is yellow?
That would be up to 1400-ish deg C.
I wonder if you understand the process of vision.

Man you are such a mule!!! how long did it take for you to admit it was yellow????

So now you think the fires were hot enough to make aluminium yellow hot eh? 1400c eh? that seems rather hot for a hydrocarbon fire.

It seems that 1000c was in fact incorrect. o dear. your logic crown is slipping jazz. you may have to admit that the fire in that building exceeded what Nist has "concluded" unless there is another possibility of... nah that wouldn't gel with your world view now would it?







seems to be pretty sparkly to me. but maybe my "understanding of the process of vision" needs a tweak.

go on dive in. once you are used to it, it isnt so badSmile

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09-13-2010, 09:21 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-15-2010, 05:09 PM by JazzRoc.)
#86
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(09-13-2010, 09:10 PM)rsol Wrote: Man you are such a mule!!! how long did it take for you to admit it was yellow?
It was ALWAYS and EVIDENTLY yellow (ish-orange).

Quote:So now you think the fires were hot enough to make aluminium yellow hot eh? 1400c eh? that seems rather hot for a hydrocarbon fire.
A hydrocarbon fire is used every second to melt steel somewhere.

Quote:It seems that 1000c was in fact incorrect.
Incorrect for WHAT?

Quote:you may have to admit that the fire in that building exceeded what Nist has "concluded" unless there is another possibility of... nah that wouldn't gel with your world view now would it?
I don't have to ADMIT to something I have always held. And my world view couldn't have anything to do with it, anyway.
I have always thought that such a furious fire would melt the dural alloy of the plane (and the disk drives in the computers and the diecastings in the copiers).
If NIST thought otherwise I would disagree with them. I don't think they did, by the way, and it is MUCH more likely that you have misinterpreted them as you have everything else.

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09-13-2010, 10:03 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2010, 10:13 PM by rsol.)
#87
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
Quote:"Incorrect for WHAT?"

cant you even remember what you wrote?? I asked you what colour that molten metal was and you decided to answer with some off the cuff 1000c remark.
I was assuming you were trying to beat me to the punch but it seems you just ended up hitting yourself in the face. pay attention. I am.

Quote:"A hydrocarbon fire is used every second to melt steel somewhere."
Yes premixed purified sources. Are you saying there was a refinery up there? Oh hang on no i get you wrong. what your saying is refineries use old bits of plastic and such and make sure they only bellow it to make the fire nice and yellowSmile See yellow fires are the hot ones yes jazz?

I think it is YOU who needs to rethink your position. you seem to conclude that the fires were hot enough to get ANY metal to a point of glowing yellow. First of all the Nist people DO disagree with you. they dont think those fires ever reached such temps.

Maybe you should start reading what has actually been written BY THEM rather than relying on you debunking sites. apart from intellectual laziness its rude to call others ignorant.
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09-14-2010, 12:44 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-14-2010, 12:53 AM by JazzRoc.)
#88
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(09-13-2010, 10:03 PM)rsol Wrote: I asked you what colour that molten metal was
Actually, no, you didn't.
You asked: "can you tell me how hot you needed to get aluminium before it glowed red?" and I answered "1000 deg C".

Quote:pay attention. I am.
Not a moment too soon.

Quote:Yes premixed purified sources. Are you saying there was a refinery up there? Oh hang on no i get you wrong. what your saying is refineries use old bits of plastic and such and make sure they only bellow it to make the fire nice and yellowSmile See yellow fires are the hot ones yes jazz? I think it is YOU who needs to rethink your position. you seem to conclude that the fires were hot enough to get ANY metal to a point of glowing yellow. First of all the Nist people DO disagree with you. they dont think those fires ever reached such temps.
They would in the presence of a windspeed of 40+ mph and especially on the undersides of all exposed steelwork. A kerosine-soaked and smashed-to-matchsticks office makes GOOD furnace material, and bowed flooring makes a good cupola for melting pieces of airframe onto. The skins would go quickly, thicker pieces would need to soak, and carbon composites would fuel the burn too.

Quote:Maybe you should start reading what has actually been written BY THEM rather than relying on you debunking sites. apart from intellectual laziness its rude to call others ignorant.
It's YOU that needs to do that. But first you should learn something.
You haven't yet learned you've lost all the points you've made - such as they were.
There is no intellectual effort required in disputing you - so you might think me intellectually lazy if you wish.
There is, however, an emotional strain in constantly having to address other people's courage, pain, suffering and loss in this tragedy while arguing with less, er, well-endowed members of our "free" world.
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09-14-2010, 12:53 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-14-2010, 01:28 AM by rsol.)
#89
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
nice try jazz. your old man brain took a while to kick in but a swing and a miss.
Quote:It's YOU that needs to do that. But first you should learn something.
You haven't yet learned you've lost all the points you've made - such as they were.
There is no intellectual effort required in disputing you - so you might think me intellectually lazy if you wish.
There is, however, an emotional strain in constantly having to address other people's courage, pain, suffering and loss in this tragedy while arguing with less, er, well-endowed members of our "free" world.

shhhhh hush with the emotional retorts. its 10 years on slim. get over it. im sure you silently shed a tear for them on 09/11/10. Im sure. however you have not addressed what i have said. you have flipped and flopped with an admirable about of gusto. however it doesn't dissuade me from concluding you have not really looked into this fully. YELLOW HOT JAZZ. You know those temps. that's hot enough to melt steel. you know this yet keep on the denial. get your ego out of the equation and look at what these guys are trying to sell us.

btw so you know whos paying attention from your post:

rsol wrote
Quote:one more point. you know that all metals glow at the same temp..... so what colour was the molten metal seeping out of the building and staying that colour after being air cooled alllllllll the way down? Please take into account the brightness balances on the cameras. i use the reflection of the sun from the building as a good calibration point.

Your response

Quote:Around 1000 C.
care to retract?
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09-14-2010, 09:42 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-14-2010, 09:57 AM by JazzRoc.)
#90
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(09-14-2010, 12:53 AM)rsol Wrote: shhhhh hush with the emotional retorts. its 10 years on slim. get over it. im sure you silently shed a tear for them on 09/11/10.
I did, but I didn't want to be informed as to the exact nature of their deaths so many times. That still applies.

Quote:I'm sure. however you have not addressed what i have said. you have flipped and flopped with an admirable about of gusto. however it doesn't dissuade me from concluding you have not really looked into this fully.
I am also quite sure I haven't fully addressed what you said too. But that's because it wasn't making sense. I've been learning to understand you.

Quote:YELLOW HOT JAZZ. You know those temps. that's hot enough to melt steel. you know this yet keep on the denial. get your ego out of the equation and look at what these guys are trying to sell us.
I also have eyes and experience. Enough to know quite clearly that what pours out of the building is neither molten steel nor molten thermite product.
Perhaps you ought to refresh your memory as to what pouring steel looks like:





And for your information, thermite produces prodigious quantities of DENSE WHITE SMOKE. NONE of which is seen either here, or immediately prior to collapse.
Also a falling stream of molten dural will break into droplets, increasing its surface area as it does so. All freshly-exposed aluminum atoms will OXIDISE in an exothermic reaction with the air which is complicated somewhat by further reactions with nitrogen as well. So it DOES NOT COOL as it falls. Back to the drawing board, eh? Get out your ACME kit.

Quote:Your response - care to retract?
If you think that's a working bluff, you DO need to get your brains tested.
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