Thread Rating:
  • 3 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
07-14-2010, 11:35 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2010, 11:38 AM by h3rm35.)
#16
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2008/01/commenting.html
Quote:I cannot make anyone stop responding to pointless or nuisance comments. You have to want to restrain yourself, because you understand that the only way to get rid of them is to fail to give them the attention they want. A "troll" is not just someone whose comments you disagree with, or even just a nasty or badly-worded comment. A troll is someone who does not, under any possible set of circumstances, care what you think about him or his comments. He merely wants attention. Negative attention will do. The more you disagree with him, the more he is able to tell himself that he is persecuted and victimized or the only voice of reason or one of the elite few who has the God's-eye view of the world or whatever his current delusion is. If he isn't merely a narcissist who thrives on feeling attacked, he's just some putz who enjoys irritating other people. Therefore, you "feed" the troll by paying any attention to him at all. It does not matter what you say in response. Any response to a troll just encourages the troll.

Besides classic trolls, we have a few resident long-winded bores who believe that the rest of us have never been exposed to some trite, shallow, bombastic rant they just heard on the radio or read in Reader's Digest or saw in a vision, and feel compelled to share with the rest of us. These people lack any possible sense of context or audience; they are incapable of noticing that the bulk of our commenting community has been exposed to the world for a while now and is not interested in any comment that starts "there is one simple answer to this the rest of you aren't getting." It does you no good to respond to this type either; they'll just re-write the same comment again, at the same length, saying the same thing, until you "get it." They are bores with no self-awareness. The cool thing about the internet is that you can just scroll down to the next comment without being "rude." So take advantage of the medium.
[Image: conspiracy_theory.jpg]
Reply
07-14-2010, 11:41 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2010, 12:04 PM by JazzRoc.)
#17
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(07-14-2010, 02:53 AM)icosaface Wrote: jr thinks that there was enough potential energy available in the towers steel, (how high the steel was (potential energy) and how far it dropped (kinetic energy)and what it hit on the way down (kinetic energy) and what it hit when its fall was arrested(kinetic energy), to cause steel to melt. jr thinks steel will snap apart like a twig and fling itself 200 m horizontally.
I studied aeronautical engineering at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough. Subjects covered were mathematics, physics, metallurgy, theory of machines, strength of materials, crystallography, tensile and compression testing, engineering drawing, fluid dynamics, aircraft structures, statics, dynamics, thermodynamics, internal and external combustion motors, electrics, electronics (in its transistor infancy), testing and instrumentation, engineering fitting, machining, electric motor overhaul and workshop practice. I might have missed a subject or two out. General studies. The Higher National Diploma of that time is degree standard now. I became CAD proficient in the mid-80s.
It must be YOU who has:
Quote:Complete ignorance of the energy required to break the steel into sections, ignorance of the tension compression properties of structural steel, ignorance of energy transference from the columns to the bedrock...
for only complete ignorance would make you so confident in your assertion.
Reply
07-14-2010, 11:44 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2010, 11:45 AM by h3rm35.)
#18
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aircraft_Establishment

Quote:The Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE), was a British research establishment, known by several different names during its history, that eventually came under the aegis of the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), before finally losing its identity in mergers with other institutions.

The first site was at Farnborough Airfield ("RAE Farnborough") in Hampshire to which was added a second site RAE Bedford (Bedfordshire) in 1946. The Marine Aircraft Experimental Establishment was incorporated into the RAE around the start of the Second World War, the marine side relocating from Felixstowe on the vulnerable East Anglian coast to Helensburgh in Scotland.

In 1988 it was renamed the Royal Aerospace Establishment before merging with other research entities to become part of the new Defence Research Agency in 1991.

might explain a few things...
why are you even on this forum?
[Image: conspiracy_theory.jpg]
Reply
07-14-2010, 11:54 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2010, 12:21 PM by ---.)
#19
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(07-14-2010, 11:26 AM)JazzRoc Wrote:
(07-14-2010, 12:43 AM)nik Wrote: perhaps just watch them.. you would then perhaps know that the videos are a brief presentation from Ron Avery - he's a licensed practising architect in the US, fully immersed in the subject of the WTC towers collapse, who explains to you how the buildings were actually constructed and why the theories you have been duped by are patently flawed..perhaps then you'll quit warbling on about how the structures had "no redundancy built into them"
Well, a LONG time ago now, I watched a FILM made by the company who erected the towers, the design of which was described IN DETAIL BY THE ORIGINAL DESIGNER. Maybe that doesn't count for much in your eyes. Was the original designer duping me? Gosh. Never thought of that. A designer duping another designer...
Avery lost his coherence about 2/3 into the first part and POOF I was watching something else.
I am NOT going to subject those videos to an autopsy.

If I saw footage of the "original designer" speaking about the construction in a manner significantly contrary to the detailed architectural explanation given by Ron Avery as to the nature of those structures, it possibly would count for more in my eyes than you think. However, as it is, it is simply hearsay and you refuse to watch the videos, by your own admission, after getting only 3/4 of the way into the 1st(3rd) one..due to, as you see it, his "lack of coherence"; I just watched the first video I posted, out of the 5 videos, to try and understand where you might have thought he lost coherence to such an extent that it made the other videos not worthy of viewing, in your opinion.
Did you mean the 1st of the videos I posted or the 1st video in the set? (I skipped the first and second of the set in my posting)
Was it due to cultural inflection? Because he said a "screen door is not structural"? His mention a little later in one of the videos about 'nano-thermite' being part of the equation?
In what way, why and when, in the video, do you feel he lost coherence to such an extent to invalidate the worth of continuing to listen to the interview?
I would like to watch the film you reference, can you provide any details, as you may and if you do, remember, as to the film's title, who released it or any information otherwise that could enable a search to find it?

Obviously, if the filmwork you reference is as damning of the generic conspiracist point of view, as one assumes you may perceive it, in terms of it's detailing of the architecture, straight from the horses mouth, so to speak..then potentially it would be of some little value to you to help people interested, if you can, to find it, so they can see for themselves.

--

not that is was or is my intent to unwittingly draw the thread off topic from the original text of the initial article posted.
(07-14-2010, 11:41 AM)JazzRoc Wrote: I might have missed a subject or two out. General studies.

lol

edit) Although, a thread about the wider context of generalism "vs." specification might of been interesting if we had happened to have a philosophy and psychology sub forum.

(07-14-2010, 11:44 AM)h3rm35 Wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aircraft_Establishment

Quote:The Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE), was a British research establishment, known by several different names during its history, that eventually came under the aegis of the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), before finally losing its identity in mergers with other institutions.

The first site was at Farnborough Airfield ("RAE Farnborough") in Hampshire to which was added a second site RAE Bedford (Bedfordshire) in 1946. The Marine Aircraft Experimental Establishment was incorporated into the RAE around the start of the Second World War, the marine side relocating from Felixstowe on the vulnerable East Anglian coast to Helensburgh in Scotland.

In 1988 it was renamed the Royal Aerospace Establishment before merging with other research entities to become part of the new Defence Research Agency in 1991.

might explain a few things...
why are you even on this forum?

Ah, well initially that would probably be because I privately invited him here after reading his posts elsewhere and having witnessed him being banned from places like the Icke forum and Outlaw Journalism; he amiably accepted my invite as you can see. Like practically many freethinkersTM, Jazzroc has different opinions about different subjects and they are not necessarily in accord with any concensus presumed to be found here. I hope this adds some information towards answering your query Smile
Reply
07-14-2010, 01:24 PM,
#20
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(07-14-2010, 07:50 AM)scaramanga667 Wrote: Fairly plain and simple trolling, lol-debunking like the gravy trash.
ps JREF = James Randi Educational Foundation. The mob responsible for the lollerskates Million Dollar Challenge for proof of paranormal phenomena. Their forums are overflowing with venomous debunking bullshit and braindead consensus building against anything non-msm.
If you didnt get half your shit from those assholes or gravysites debunking resources, I'll eat my hat.
You have a hat? Get going.
Reply
07-14-2010, 01:33 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2010, 01:34 PM by ---.)
#21
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(07-14-2010, 01:24 PM)JazzRoc Wrote:
(07-14-2010, 07:50 AM)scaramanga667 Wrote: Fairly plain and simple trolling, lol-debunking like the gravy trash.
ps JREF = James Randi Educational Foundation. The mob responsible for the lollerskates Million Dollar Challenge for proof of paranormal phenomena. Their forums are overflowing with venomous debunking bullshit and braindead consensus building against anything non-msm.
If you didnt get half your shit from those assholes or gravysites debunking resources, I'll eat my hat.
You have a hat? Get going.

scaramanga667 not only has cooler title than your goodself but is very probably presently the only concen member that recently confronted the rather peculiar reality of having all his material possessions burned in front of him whether he liked it or not....so, in answer to your question: there is a good chance he doesn't have a hat.
Reply
07-14-2010, 01:44 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2010, 02:37 PM by JazzRoc.)
#22
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(07-14-2010, 11:54 AM)nik Wrote: I would like to watch the film you reference, can you provide any details, as you may and if you do, remember, as to the film's title, who released it or any information otherwise that could enable a search to find it?
I have no idea. It may be a Googlevid.

Quote:Obviously, if the filmwork you reference is as damning of the generic conspiracist point of view, as one assumes you may perceive it, in terms of its detailing of the architecture, straight from the horses mouth, so to speak..then potentially it would be of some little value to you to help people interested, if you can, to find it, so they can see for themselves.
I agree, but it's hot here right now. Smile

Quote:Although, a thread about the wider context of generalism "vs." specification might of been interesting if we had happened to have a philosophy and psychology sub forum.
A good idea for a subforum would be the rules of debate, logic, and the pitfalls of thinking. Improve the quality of the clientele.

Quote:The Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE), was a British research establishment, known by several different names during its history.
It started life as the Royal Balloon Factory in 1910. It had 5,500 apprentices over seventy years. Me included. I went to a reunion just two months ago. A dinner party of five hundred beneath videoscreens of crashing aircraft. Riotous.

Quote:might explain a few things...
You should quit flexing your apophenia.

Quote:why are you even on this forum?
Because I wish to find out whether truth lies elsewhere. I've drawn a blank so far, looking at topics with which I am familiar.

Quote:Jazzroc has different opinions about different subjects and they are not necessarily in accord with any consensus presumed to be found here.
Very few people agree with me, in fact. And across a wide range - none.
Can't say it worries me much. Smile
(07-14-2010, 01:33 PM)nik Wrote: scaramanga667 not only has cooler title than your goodself but is very probably presently the only concen member that recently confronted the rather peculiar reality of having all his material possessions burned in front of him whether he liked it or not....so, in answer to your question: there is a good chance he doesn't have a hat.
Oh, dammit. Not just Hilly - tough break, scaramanga. Doesn't give you free licence to attack me, though, just because I have a hat, a bitsa computer and a second-hand bike.

How much structural steel COULD the tower's potential energy melt?
http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/wtc_mass_and_energy.pdf
The calculated mass of one tower is 253,000 metric tons, and the total potential energy above grade is 3.98 * 10^11 Joules.
The heat required to raise a metric ton of steel to its melt temperature (temperature range 1110 deg C, specific heat of iron 500 J/kg) and then melt it (latent heat of melting of iron 98 kJ/kg) is 1000 * (1110*500 + 98000) = 1.53 * 10^8 Joules.
Therefore the maximum possible amount of structural steel that could be melted by the TOTAL CONVERSION of the tower's potential energy
is 3.98 * 10^11 / 1.53 * 10^8 = 2,600 metric tons.


A slightly different figure from the last time I calculated it. The specific heat of iron alloy nearly doubles through this temperature range, and this time I took an average value for ease of calculation.
Arguing that the molten steel could only be caused by thermite is ignorant and unnecessary. Any blacksmith will tell you that if you hammer steel it gets hot. Any foundry worker will tell you how working a billet in a hydraulic press can cause it to glow and possibly melt. You are arguing about physics from a position where you don't understand it.


Maybe this is the film, or part of it:



Well, it's just some of the construction footage which was used in what I saw.
Reply
07-14-2010, 07:36 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2010, 07:38 PM by scaramanga667.)
#23
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
Don't mean to be having a go at you personally, Jazz. Just that I've spent a fair bit of time on the JREF trying to understand why so many people are so manic in trying to defend the official 9/11 story when there's more holes in in than a big fat piece of swiss cheese.

Most of what you've been saying about that and the chemtrail issue seems terribly similar to all the tripe I've seen bandied about on that shithole of a "skeptic" site.

ps. I do have a hat, had to buy myself another one so I could go out and work in the sun. I used to have 4 hats /sigh


“I'm not from earth. I'm here on a research project. I'm preparing a paper on the psychosomatic ailments of pre-Apocalyptic condominium dwellers.”
-Sappho, Ash Ock

The Mushrooms once said to me "You must have a plan. If you don't have a plan, you will become part of someone else's plan."
-Terence McKenna
Reply
07-14-2010, 09:44 PM,
#24
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
I do mean to be having a go at jr, only a close minded fool with no understanding of the scientific method could come to the conclusions that he (assuming that is its gender) does. As far as the long list of supposed accomplishments jr has, it just goes to show that training and competence have nothing to do with each other.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi


Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
Reply
07-14-2010, 10:04 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-15-2010, 02:48 AM by scaramanga667.)
#25
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
One thing the pseudoskeptics and debunkers and intellectual wannabe snobs say, although they rarely do, is attack the argument, not the person making the argument. Ad homs are baad mm'kay. The vast majority of my experience with debunkers has been to be viciously attacked and ridiculed for DARING to express doubt about the official explanations for some of the most controversial and world shaking events of our time.

Fair call to say close minded etc, because in this case it is at least that, if not deliberate obfuscation and trolling, but I try not to make any kind of personal attack unless I'm sorely provoked.


“I'm not from earth. I'm here on a research project. I'm preparing a paper on the psychosomatic ailments of pre-Apocalyptic condominium dwellers.”
-Sappho, Ash Ock

The Mushrooms once said to me "You must have a plan. If you don't have a plan, you will become part of someone else's plan."
-Terence McKenna
Reply
07-14-2010, 11:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2010, 11:27 PM by h3rm35.)
#26
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
I don't mind using ad homs when there's direct condescension in nearly every post, even if they do mostly attack the argument. even when ad hom's aren't used, and there's a certain tone, it's meant to be insulting, and I consider that trolling, and worthy of insults. Either that or I ignore them. Usually it starts as the former and turns into the latter. I don't really care who gets the last word in, as long as I let them know what I think of them. In this case the guy's a troll, even if he was invited. If all someone does is try to make themselves out to be smarter or more informed, they can't possibly be either. In this case, the first interaction I've ever had with him was
"They wouldn't advance these arguments, knowing better.
You shouldn't, for you know nothing."

Jackassery of the highest order and completely unprovoked. Sorry Nik, but the guy's a trolling asshat. I haven't seen one post of his that is even slightly positive. The majority are negative, and a few are neutral.
[Image: conspiracy_theory.jpg]
Reply
07-15-2010, 01:30 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-15-2010, 02:05 AM by JazzRoc.)
#27
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(07-14-2010, 09:44 PM)icosaface Wrote: I do mean to be having a go at jr, only a close minded fool with no understanding of the scientific method could come to the conclusions that he (assuming that is its gender) does. As far as the long list of supposed accomplishments jr has, it just goes to show that training and competence have nothing to do with each other.
Sigh.
How much structural steel COULD the tower's potential energy melt?
http://www.journalof911studies.com/lette...energy.pdf
The calculated mass of one tower is 253,000 metric tons, and the total potential energy above grade is 3.98 * 10^11 Joules.
The heat required to raise a metric ton of steel to its melt temperature (temperature range 1110 deg C, specific heat of iron 500 J/kg) and then melt it (latent heat of melting of iron 98 kJ/kg) is 1000 * (1110*500 + 98000) = 1.53 * 10^8 Joules.
Therefore the maximum possible amount of structural steel that could be melted by the TOTAL CONVERSION of the tower's potential energy
is 3.98 * 10^11 / 1.53 * 10^8 = 2,600 metric tons.
Fit the above fact into your world view. It is ENGINEERING and MATHEMATICS and unarguable.

(07-14-2010, 11:26 PM)h3rm35 Wrote: I don't mind using ad homs when there's direct condescension in nearly every post, even if they do mostly attack the argument.
Funny.

Quote:even when ad hom's aren't used, and there's a certain tone, it's meant to be insulting, and I consider that trolling
You should know.

Quote:and worthy of insults. Either that or I ignore them. Usually it starts as the former and turns into the latter. I don't really care who gets the last word in, as long as I let them know what I think of them. In this case the guy's a troll, even if he was invited.
A TROLL is someone who ONLY adhoms and NEVER makes an argument. He even pleads to others to stop listening - a soft censorship.

Quote:If all someone does is try to make themselves out to be smarter or more informed, they can't possibly be either. In this case, the first interaction I've ever had with him was "They wouldn't advance these arguments, knowing better. You shouldn't, for you know nothing."
No-one should when they know nothing. I simply suggest the experience I've had in this specialist field needs to be discussed, and not dismissed, BECAUSE you haven't this experience. You won't find me dabbling in discussions about astrology because that ISN'T my experience. Yet here you and others are in my specialist field telling me that I don't know anything about it. Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? It should do.

Quote:Jackassery of the highest order and completely unprovoked. Sorry Nik, but the guy's a trolling asshat. I haven't seen one post of his that is even slightly positive. The majority are negative, and a few are neutral.
By "positive" I now know you to mean "agreeing with me".
I might agree with you if you EVER advanced an argument.
Until that time, as far as I'm concerned, you are the troll you claim me to be.
Reply
07-15-2010, 02:10 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-15-2010, 02:24 AM by icosaface.)
#28
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
Nice little potential energy calculation, so what! How much energy was expended breaking the steel into sections, how much energy was transmitted to the bedrock each time an upper mass landed on a new floor, how much energy is left in your steel will melt if it is dropped 1368 feet calculation . Take your pseudo scientific BS elsewhere jr.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi


Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
Reply
07-15-2010, 02:25 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-15-2010, 02:37 AM by JazzRoc.)
#29
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(07-14-2010, 07:36 PM)scaramanga667 Wrote: Don't mean to be having a go at you personally, Jazz. Just that I've spent a fair bit of time on the JREF trying to understand why so many people are so manic in trying to defend the official 9/11 story when there's more holes in in than a big fat piece of swiss cheese.
I've never been on that site. I support the general principles behind it completely. I have met 'manic' defenders of science, and you don't have to tell me that they are feral, and work in packs like wolves. About as smart as wolves, too.
There are some technical holes in the official version where they have avoided going into great detail. The core presentation of the report's finding is perfectly true, but a lot of info disappeared into a safe political "fog". The investigation felt "dumbed down" to me, but I often have a difficulty distinguishing Americans from dumb people. Not all, of course, it hosts the finest people in the sciences, industries, and arts that the world has to offer.

Quote:Most of what you've been saying about that and the chemtrail issue seems terribly similar to all the tripe I've seen bandied about on that shithole of a "skeptic" site.
Similar it may be, but it's all my own work. Pulling together threads of science. How do YOU distinguish science from tripe?

Quote:ps. I do have a hat, had to buy myself another one so I could go out and work in the sun. I used to have 4 hats /sigh
Oh, I've NEVER had THAT many.
Reply
07-15-2010, 01:21 PM,
#30
RE: Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
(07-15-2010, 02:10 AM)icosaface Wrote: Nice little potential energy calculation, so what! How much energy was expended breaking the steel into sections, how much energy was transmitted to the bedrock each time an upper mass landed on a new floor, how much energy is left in your steel will melt if it is dropped 1368 feet calculation . Take your pseudo scientific BS elsewhere jr.
I thought the argument was that BECAUSE there was molten steel in the basement, that meant THERMITE had to have been used.
THAT is the PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC argument.
I very much doubt that even 15% of the potential energy ended up as molten steel. That would account for 390 tons of it in the basement. What do YOU reckon?
The POINT is that the PROOF of thermite has DISAPPEARED, yet you maintain it was there, and you slander me and call me a pseudoscientist.
How do you DO that? Where has your rationality disappeared to? Where is your honor?
Don't you realize that if you are wrong, you are lying and slandering?
if this is a FALSE issue, what of the REAL ones?
The only people you help with your stubborn refusal to see sense are the very people you SHOULD despise.
This is obvious to anyone with sense.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
Information Power and Control: The Anti-Nuclear Energy Movement - Leveraging the Japan Tsunami and Other Disasters FastTadpole 37 19,065 01-23-2014, 01:51 PM
Last Post: FastTadpole
  Signs Of The Times Blog: An Inconvenient Truth FighterFromAfar 0 817 04-07-2007, 10:31 PM
Last Post: FighterFromAfar
  When Did The Spraying Start ? (maby The Truth Is In The Movies) lando 3 1,333 03-18-2007, 09:54 PM
Last Post: Karl292

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)