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Why Did God Create Atheists?
06-06-2010, 03:16 AM,
#1
Why Did God Create Atheists?
Why Did God Create Atheists?
By Greta Christina, AlterNet
Posted on June 5, 2010, Printed on June 5, 2010
http://www.alternet.org/story/147098/

Why did God create atheists?

This is a question I always want to ask religious believers. (One of many questions, actually. "What evidence do you have that God is real?" and "Why are religious beliefs so different and so contradictory?" are also high on the list.)

If God is real, and religious believers are perceiving a real entity... why is anyone an atheist? Why don't we all perceive him? If God is powerful enough to reach out to believers just by sending out his thoughts or love or whatever... why isn't he powerful enough to reach all of us? Why is there anyone who doesn't believe in him?

It seems to be a question that troubles many believers as well. At least, it troubles them enough that they feel compelled to respond. And as atheism becomes more common and more vocal, this compulsion to respond seems to be getting more common and more vocal as well.

I've seen a couple of religious responses to this question. Neither of which is very satisfactory. But they keep coming up... so today, I want to take them on.

Open Your Heart To Me, Baby

For more traditional believers, the answer to why atheists exist is simple: Atheists have closed our hearts to God. God has reached out to atheists -- but we don't want to believe. We want to pursue a selfish and sybaritic life, and don't want to obey God's laws (so say the real hard-liners)... or we've been hurt by life or by religion, and we're rejecting God out of anger (so say the marginally more compassionate believers). But it's important that we have free will -- so we have to be free to reject God as well as to accept him. God can't force us to believe. That would be cheating.

Uh huh.

See, here's the problem with that.

Or rather, here's a whole set of problems.

For starters: This idea is totally unfalsifiable. There's no way to prove that you honestly gave religion a chance. Until we develop the technology to accurately record the inside of somebody's head and play it back in somebody else's, there's no way to prove that atheists are sincerely open-minded and willing to consider religion.

Atheists can say a hundred times, "Really, I'm telling you, I've looked at this carefully, I've meditated on it, I've examined the evidence, I've studied lots of different religions... and I just don't find any of it convincing." We can ask believers to give us good evidence or arguments for God. We can point out the pain and distress many of us went through when we let go of our beliefs -- pain and distress that this "You've just closed your heart to God" trope seriously trivializes. We can even go out on a limb and point to the kinds of evidence that would convince us we were mistaken (something just about no religious believers are willing to do). But since we can't demonstrate the state of our minds and hearts, believers can always say, "You aren't sincere. Your mind and heart are closed."

There's no way to prove that they're wrong. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis.

Which makes it an entirely useless one. If there's no possible way to show that your hypothesis is false, there's no way to know whether it's true.

What's more, the "You've hardened your heart against God" trope is a perfect example of moving the goalposts. No matter how many times we gave God the old college try... we clearly haven't tried hard enough. I mean -- we don't believe! If we'd tried hard enough, then obviously we'd believe! The fact that we don't believe is proof that we haven't tried hard enough. Q.E.D. (It's a fairly entertaining logical fallacy, actually: a unique blend of moving goalposts and circular reasoning. I'm kind of impressed.)

And then, of course, we have the niggling little problem of self-deception and rationalization.

The human mind is very prone to believing what it already believes. It's very prone to believing what it's been prompted to believe. And it's very prone to believing what it wants to believe. Rationalization is a deeply hard-wired part of how the human mind works, and while it's a surprisingly important part -- among other things, it enables us to get on with our lives without being totally paralyzed -- it's something we always need to keep in mind when we're deciding if the things we believe are really true.

So if the only way to believe something is to try really, really hard? If what it takes to believe something is to "open your heart" -- i.e., to put yourself in a state of suggestibility and wishful thinking?

That's not a very good sign that this something is true.

Quite the contrary.

If we care about whether the things we believe are true -- if we want to be sure that we're not just fooling ourselves into believing what we already believe or what we want to believe -- then the times we're trying really hard to convince ourselves of something? Those are exactly the times we should be most skeptical. That's not when we should be opening our hearts. That's when we should be on our guard.

The reality for me, and the reality for a whole lot of atheists? I am open to my mind being changed. Heck, I used to be a believer. I used to be more than just open to the idea of God -- I used to believe in God. (Or something that I was willing to call God.) In fact, it was my willingness to change my mind, my openness to reconsidering new possibilities, that led me to let go of my religious beliefs in the first place. And if someone can give me some really good reasons to change my mind back again, I will.

But "You just have to open your heart" is not a good reason. It's an unfalsifiable argument -- nothing I do can prove that I'm sincerely open to the God hypothesis. Its goalposts can be moved forever -- no matter how carefully I've considered religion, people can argue that I need to consider it just a little more. And it's basically a defense of wishful thinking as some sort of positive virtue. (Besides, nobody's ever given me a good reason why I should open my heart to their particular god: why I should open my heart to Jesus instead of to Allah, or Ganesh, or the Goddess, or that blue peacock god some people worship in northern Iraq.)

"You just haven't opened your heart" is clearly a terrible explanation for why God would allow atheists to exist.

Are there any better ones?

I Love You Just The Way You Are

There is another religious response to the puzzling question of why there are atheists. And unlike the unfalsifiable, goalpost-moving, "let's treat people like pariahs for wanting to be careful that the things they believe are true" hostility of "You haven't opened your hearts," it's a response that typically comes from more progressive, tolerant, pluralistic believers.

It's this: "God doesn't care if you're an atheist."

"As long as you're a good person," this idea goes, "as long as you love other people and try to do right by them, God's fine with you. God doesn't need your worship or your praise, or even your faith. God loves atheists, too. He doesn't care whether you believe in him."

Yeah. See, here's the problem with that.

God may not care whether I believe in him.

But I do.

I want to understand the world. I care about reality, more than I care about just about anything. If there really is a God who created everything, who guided the universe and the process of evolution so conscious life could come into being, who animates all life with his spirit -- I bloody well want to know about it. I don't want to be flatly wrong about one of the hugest questions humanity is faced with. In my years as an atheist writer, I keep asking believers again and again, "Do you have some evidence for your belief? If you do, please tell me about it. I want to see it." And I'm not being snarky, or baiting them into a debate I know they can't win. (Well... not mostly.) If I'm wrong about this, I sincerely want to know.

Why does God deny me that knowledge? Why does he give it to some people, and not others?

And maybe more to the point:

If there really were a loving creator of the universe who animates all life including my own, and from whom all that is good and valuable about the world emanates, I wouldn't want to be alienated from him. I'd want to be connected with him. (Her. It. Them. Whatever.) Especially the touchy-feely God that the progressive, tolerant, pluralistic believers believe in. There are certainly plenty of gods I wouldn't worship even if I thought they were real -- the God of fundamentalist Christianity is a sadistic nutjob, and even if he existed I wouldn't give him the time of day. But the warm, gentle, "source of all life/ force of goodness and love in the universe" God that progressive believers believe in? Sure, I'd want to know him. I'd have some serious questions for him -- why is there suffering, why is there evil, why can't the Cubs win a goddamn pennant to save their lives -- but I'd happily have a beer with the guy. We could be friends. I mean, he's the source of all life, the force of goodness and love in the universe. Of course I'd want that in my life. Why on earth wouldn't I?

If God exists... then why isn't he reaching out to me? Isn't it cruel of him to reach out to some people but not to others? (Not to mention the manipulative game-playing he seems to be doing, where he reveals himself in wildly different and even contradictory ways to different people, and then sits back while they duke it out over which one is right.) Why does he manifest in some people's hearts, but not in others? Why is he being such a passive-aggressive jerk?

Let me be very clear about this: I am entirely happy to be an atheist. I'm not one of these whiny, moody, "I wish I could believe" atheists that so many believers think is the only valid kind of atheism. I am tickled pink to be an atheist. I won't pretend that I didn't lose a form of comfort when I left my beliefs -- but I gained so much in return that the loss is a clear bargain. And the comforts I have now are far more comforting... since they're built on a foundation of reality. I don't have the constant nagging feeling in the back of my head that my beliefs are just wishful thinking, and that I've built my philosophy on a foundation of sand. I'm persuaded that God does not exist, and that's just ducky with me.

But I'm happy with my atheism because I'm persuaded that it's correct. I'm happy not feeling God in my life because I'm persuaded that God doesn't exist.

If God really existed, I sure as heck would want to know about it.

So why don't I?

If God really exists -- why don't I know about it?

As an atheist, I have some really good answers for why people believe in God even though he doesn't exist. The human mind is prone to numerous cognitive errors -- and many of those cognitive errors make people susceptible to religion. We tend to see intention, even where no intention exists. We tend to see patterns, even where no pattern exists. We give excessive weight to personal emotional experience, and aren't good at applying critical thought to those experiences. We don't have a good intuitive understanding of probability, and tend to think events are more improbable than they really are. We tend to believe what authority figures tell us. We tend to believe what we're taught as children. We tend to believe what people we know and trust tell us. We're reluctant to question the things that everyone else in our social group believes. Etc., etc., etc. People believe all sort of things that aren't true... and from an atheist/ materialist viewpoint, that makes perfect sense. Atheism is not even a little inconsistent with the belief in gods who don't exist.

But the belief in God is very much inconsistent with the existence of atheists. I have yet to see a religious believer give a good answer for why God exists -- but not everyone experiences him or believes in him. I have yet to see a good answer for why God bestows the experience of his existence (however inconsistently and contradictorily) onto some people -- but not onto others. I have yet to see a good answer for why God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-good -- or even anything close to all-powerful and all-knowing and all-good -- and still isn't perceived by everybody.

Does anybody have one?

(And if you say "Mysterious ways," I'm going to scream.)

Read more of Greta Christina at her blog.
© 2010 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/147098/
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06-06-2010, 09:27 AM,
#2
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
Ill give it a try.

Quote:Why did God create atheists?

God didn't create Atheists. He created people, and with that came the ability to logic and reason. There would be no purpose in this life if every view point was the same, so why would he have us living on this rock if everything was so set-forward?

Quote:God can't force us to believe. That would be cheating.

You answered it yourself lady.

Quote:Why does God deny me that knowledge? Why does he give it to some people, and not others?

Knowledge is obtained through those who seek it.

Quote:If there really were a loving creator of the universe who animates all life including my own, and from whom all that is good and valuable about the world emanates, I wouldn't want to be alienated from him.

The good and the bad in this world, why deny it? After all, our purpose is how we deal with the different situations.

Quote: I'd want to be connected with him. (Her. It. Them. Whatever.)

Meditate? Pray? I want to go to Vegas but I dont want to drive there [/analogy]. Lol.

Quote:If God really exists -- why don't I know about it?

Because you choose not to believe in it. Again, we are given logic to reason, the choice is ours.

Quote:As an atheist, I have some really good answers for why people believe in God even though he doesn't exist. The human mind is prone to numerous cognitive errors -- and many of those cognitive errors make people susceptible to religion.

Science changes every day. The brain is the most mysterious organ in the body. She obviously hasn't heard of dmt and the pineal gland.

Quote:We tend to see intention, even where no intention exists. We tend to see patterns, even where no pattern exists.

Or so she chooses to think they dont exist. If they didn't exist, how did it come to be?

Quote:We give excessive weight to personal emotional experience, and aren't good at applying critical thought to those experiences.

Reading between the lines and figuering out the psychology of the author makes this statement true on her part.

Quote:I have yet to see a good answer for why God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-good -- or even anything close to all-powerful and all-knowing and all-good -- and still isn't perceived by everybody.

If He wasnt All-knowing, then we probably wouldnt be here right now. Other than that, who said he is all-good? God is just, and neutral. People invented good and bad in our heads. What one considers good may be harmful to another.



Thanks for posting, Im bored haha.
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06-07-2010, 03:41 PM,
#3
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
This is where believers get a bad rap. On one hand I love people like H3rm35 and then again they are tedious boors (my personal opinion). But these people like to think that they can trap believers by throwing out these type questions. Of course the surface believers (Christians) do get stumped by these questions and end up looking like idiots. However, those of us who truly believe and understand a little something about what we believe see these people for what they are.

I am a believer. When someone comes at me asking that type of question I look at them and explain that their question is similar to the other type of questions that people like that ask when they pose: "Can God create a rock that is so heavy that he can't lift it?"

Yes, that is a stupid question.

Mastermg is correct when he says that God did not create Atheists. People choose to be that way. It's true. God wants people to choose. It is all about choice. Most idiots cannot grasp the simplicity of that idea. Choice. That is all it is.

It's the same idea behind homosexuality. God didn't create homosexuals. They CHOOSE to be that way. It's a lifestyle CHOICE. They like the decadent lifestyle and want to pursue it. They know it's wrong but CHOOSE to indulge in it. Same as doing wrong in any other area of life. IT IS A CHOICE. Homosexuality is another name for REBELLION.

If people don't want to believe in God then OK don't believe in him. God feels for those people but he won't force them. He isn't that type of God. He leaves things like that to Satan.

Here's two other ridiculous questions: "If God is Love then why does he allow people to die?" How stupid is that question? OR "If God Loves Us Why Does He Allow Pain and Suffering?" There are so many types of these questions that it astounds me that the people who have the nerve to ask these questions are actually able to function in any part of reality.

Once again, people know, they know the difference. They want the excuse to NOT believe. Anyone who has ever grown up with decent parents knows the answer to the question on Love and Suffering. In order to learn a lesson we have to suffer the pain of our mistakes. Where death is concerned - People die. No one lives forever. Who would think that people live forever and who would want to?

But these type of questions are good for (as well as) designed for stoking fights and arguments.

I personally don't subscribe to the mainstream religious attitude because I have learned that it is corrupt. I have long since accepted the simple truth that believing is a personal choice and that is between myself and Christ. God will judge me and that is all I have to worry about. I do the best I can and try to live the best life I can. But I tend to fall back on something that the Spaceman mentions from time to time (for those who listen to him). "The only real choice that you have to make everyday is whether you will choose to believe or not believe". You have to make your choice on who you will follow everyday.

But a word to those who would like to think themselves Atheists or Agnostics. You work harder at not believing than if you did believe in something. You actually do believe in something, but you won't admit it. Even if you would like to think that you are god within yourself you believe in a deity - yourself. How vain.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats. H. L. Mencken




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06-07-2010, 07:14 PM,
#4
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
(06-07-2010, 03:41 PM)NickHedge Wrote: But a word to those who would like to think themselves Atheists or Agnostics. You work harder at not believing than if you did believe in something. You actually do believe in something, but you won't admit it. Even if you would like to think that you are god within yourself you believe in a deity - yourself. How vain.

Actually agnostics don't believe in anything, they merely refuse to make presumptions about subjects outside their realm of perception. Atheists could be characterized as believing in the absence of God but that's a gross generalization that clearly wouldn't apply to all atheists.

As to the characterization that abstaining from taking an uninformed position or assuming absence of something for which there is no empirical evidence for equates to a belief that one's self is God, is fallacious nonsense.
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06-08-2010, 01:52 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-08-2010, 02:19 AM by h3rm35.)
#5
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
Quote:This is where believers get a bad rap. On one hand I love people like H3rm35 and then again they are tedious boors (my personal opinion).
I didn't write the article, jackass, I just posted it. Considering the length of your response, I suspect you didn't find it tedious, you just found it offensive as a believer... isn't that really the case?

Quote:Who would think that people live forever and who would want to?

Most religions claim to believe it. That's pretty much their point, right? "do what we tell you to do and you'll go to the good place when you die, and live there forever." That's kind of the point of most religion - blackmailing you with the afterlife so that you'll act the way they want you to and give them money while you're here?

correct me if I'm wrong.
(this should be rich...)

I'm not an atheist. Neither do I consider myself an agnostic. I am of the opinion that your relationship with that which is beyond the realm of concrete 3-D human experience can never be anything that can be dictated to you by another person or a book. Either may be a set of maps that help you wrap words around your experience, or try to share it with others. However, seeing that "God" or whatever else you want to call it is so far beyond daily human conception, anthropomorphization can never be anything but allegory. Those who have truly had spiritual experiences may try to describe them, but they always are aware that they're not doing the subject justice... That's why I criticize organized religions. They claim to know the path, and be able to guide you, when in reality, (even if they're not as lost as you are,) they still can't "save" you.

Your relationship with god is a solitary one, because if it weren't, whatever your experience may be, it is still less than the Alpha and Omega, so to speak...

do you think it was coincidence that when Jesus had anything important to say, he used parables?
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07-12-2010, 11:31 AM,
#6
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
This is interesting...

I always found that even when faced with strong proof the religious will pretend it does not exist... even when you get them with something good they will be all... "so, what's your point" like in the bill mar docu Religulus.

As for the parables that is interesting too, according to jesus as written in the bible, all the paribles were for the stupid people so they would not be saved. he only explained what he really meant in private to those he deemed worthy.

as for the question "Can God create a rock that is so heavy that he can't lift it?" it's not really that bad.

A better one is can god lie?
according to the bible No he can't... which means I can do something god can't do...

or was god lieing? and if so what else did he lie about?

I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too... Eatdrink007
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07-13-2010, 12:54 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-13-2010, 12:59 AM by hilly7.)
#7
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
I try and avoid these topics yet I do a piss poor job of doing so, lol. I will have to agree that God doesn't create Atheist or Theists, he creates people. People then chose to go the route they wish. We are semi steered yet we also are always in control of the path we take at the crossroads.

Please don't misconstrue my meaning, I'm not out to convince you either way. For in the end, as we draw our last breathe, we account for only ourselves. I gotta handful of issues with just me, lol.

Why is God all good, all powerful, all knowing is a good question. I guess that when one sees what evil is, and we study it everyday here, see it in the hidden truths, we know what evil is and what good is. As children we learn fast. Kids and animals seem to have a 6th sense of good and bad without knowing one's beliefs or lack thereof. Believing doesn't make someone a good person anymore than not believing makes them a bad one. But it does give the believer the edge on what one does and who or what one worships, so does a good heart.

Why does God allow suffering and pain? I asked myself that question many years ago, in 1983 after my cousin I grew up with as a brother was murdered before he was 20 years old. It set such a shock wave that our great grandmother's cancer (according to doctors) came back from the stress, shock, and horror. His dad become an alcoholic. His mom ended up with cancer and within less that 7 years, all were dead. I became an Agnostic and headed quickly towards being an Atheist. I stayed that way for many years, right up until my life was ending in 2005. I look back at me and life was a hell of a lot easier to live because not a whole lot was demanded of me by God.

Not that I really like being on this route I have been given but I thought of why God allowed suffering and pain while working in my garden lately. The hardest thing in my garden is a weed. The most delicate thing is the plant I sowed. The difference is not that a weed isn't useful, they are and are used in many herbal remedies and have useful purposes. The weed has the hardest life yet it still thrives. It thrives in drought, heat, wetness, cold, pulling, and hoeing. Have you ever noticed the dumbest person is the one that has had everything. They hay be book smart but they are completely stupid in everything else. The coldest people with the least compassion are the ones who have seldom if ever got sick or hurt. The most ungrateful people are the ones who have everything.

Baring the years between my cousin's death and my death, I tried to remain a so-so person, pretty decent, kinda. Then I went back at death, not back to religion but back to God having seen what happens after we die. So why was I given cancer 7 months later, why the surgery, why the new cancer now? Did I need to pay for something? Did I need to be taught a lesson? Was I being punished? I will say that while I am a long ways away from being like God, I am a better person, not a good one, but a better one. I was stripped of what I had left I took pride in, my hair, my independence, my looks, and a lot of my money. I can have empathy with my dad now as I can no longer do as I once did physically. Mentally I can, physically I can't and it grips the Hell outta me sometimes. I have learned to be more patient with myself and others.

You see my friend, for the unbeliever this world is all there is, as TPTB would have one believe. For the believer it is not much, not much at all and nowhere we would want to be forever. Why I didn't chose to let this last cancer take me down was simple, I promised my wife if it was a different cancer I would fight with all I am to beat it. I have so done. I would not have chosen this path but I stand grateful that I have withstood it inside. I have become not a good man but a better man than I was, a stronger man, a bigger heart, more humble, more forgiving.

That in and of itself should answer two questions. why does God allow suffering and pain. Why God allows death. This physical body is not life, not really. It is taught to us that this is life by those who would control us. They themselves believe in God and the Devil.

If all Atheists were evil then the Bible accounts for a lot of people that shouldn't be. The most beloved of God started out pretty rough. Jesus didn't hang out with what religious people either. For that He was crucified. He chose his friends by their heart and by seeing Him and His actions were changed.

How is God (insert preferred name there) know all, all powerful, all loving? For that, a believer would only know. If you have the power to create then you know how to maintain and how to destroy. Who creates and doesn't love what he created?

We needn't concern ourselves with religion though as spelled out in Agenda 21. They are working on 1, one that will attract us all. It will be neither Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Evolution, nor anything know today. Maybe just a good duke's mixture.

As I said before, I wouldn't have picked this road I have been on, who in their right mind would. But... I wouldn't have missed it for the world. Pun intended.
(07-12-2010, 11:31 AM)ultameca Wrote: As for the parables that is interesting too, according to jesus as written in the bible, all the paribles were for the stupid people so they would not be saved. he only explained what he really meant in private to those he deemed worthy.

Actually you are wrong on that. Jesus spoke in parables so that those that claimed to be religious wouldn't know. The explanation was often given to those that the religious leaders would not have associated with.
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07-30-2010, 06:20 AM, (This post was last modified: 01-22-2014, 05:57 AM by Orwell63.)
#8
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
.....
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07-30-2010, 08:05 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-30-2010, 08:11 AM by Enteogen.)
#9
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
I'll give you the short version: YWHW (i'm assuming its this "god" your bringing in question) is just evil. In fact he is the most evil made up character we know of.
Remember when he murdered 42 little children for making fun of a bald guy? (2 Kings 2:23-25) Is this the guy you're questioning why he created atheists? Smile The answer is simple: He wants you and your family, your friends and all your beloved to suffer eternally in hells deep fiery pits Smile
Yeah, he is just that evil!

Now, aside from all those fairy tales, just take some trips in the Godhead and you'll understand how things work ...beyond Smile
Problem is when you come back you wont be able to explain anything using language and sometimes normal logic and reason fail... Our minds are just too small for the boundless knowledge out there... but once you're there , you know! you get the whole picture! You'll be a wiser man! ... and less of an atheist Smile

And remember always use legal entheogens Big Grin

Edit: I just read your second post h3rm35 - you are right - you got the idea Wink
If you talk to God, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. - Thomas Szasz
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07-30-2010, 09:18 AM,
#10
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
(07-30-2010, 06:20 AM)Orwell63 Wrote: hilly7 wrote:
>>I have yet to see a good answer for why God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-good -- or even anything close to all-powerful and all-knowing and all-good -- and still isn't perceived by everybody.

mastermg wrote:
>>If He wasnt All-knowing, then we probably wouldnt be here right now. Other than that, who said he is all-good? God is just, and neutral. People invented good and bad in our heads. What one considers good may be harmful to another.

A classic argument is that Omniscience (all knowing) and Omnipotence (all powerfullness) are *incompatible* concepts. For instance, if someone were "all-knowing" then they would know the future -- but if they knew the future then they would be *powerless* (in a sense) to change that future.

Any knowledge of the future would also nullify "free-will."

Or it could be someone who knows all the possibilities that exist and the outcome of each possibility.
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07-31-2010, 03:59 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-31-2010, 04:09 AM by h3rm35.)
#11
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
hilly, can you describe the experience that lead you to god? was it a promise you made in exchange for continued existence on this plane, or did you actually find the god-head?

enteogen - I don't know about YHVH being evil... that sounds like something beyond our true capability to understand. To me, in my journeys, I find our situation to be one of total ambivalence, and completely dependent on our choices, as hilly has said. I chose to ignore even the most basic dogmas of theistic and philosophical thought, as best I can. I try to be lead by my intuition. What is right for me never includes damaging anyone else, unless I'm in danger, and any time I've been in danger, I can track putting myself into that situation back to neglecting my intuition.

The interactions I've had on the level of spirit don't lead me to any concept other than divine ignorance. It feels to me like our existence is meant to be self perpetuating and sustaining. So that leaves me to believe that we we experience is up to us, and the "creator" or the infinite motivator of "creation" doesn't really give a fuck what we do, as long as we function in a way that doesn't threaten its existence, much like we were cells that we'd only pay attention to if we were malignant.

And I think we're becoming malignant.

Microcosmic forces change the macrocosm, and we're on the verge of killing off our host body, or at least creating a situation where our host might need to kill us off in order to survive.

I truly believe that the macrocosm that we exist within is as capable of ignoring microcosmic stimuli as we are, and that, in doing so, it sets up rebellion against the forces that keep us in check.

The tapestry of existence expands exponentially beyond our realm, and the differences can't be explained beyond the natural progression of entropy. We were born to die, as is everything below us and beyond us.

God created man in its own image, right?
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07-31-2010, 04:10 AM,
#12
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
I will do one better, something that I have PM'd a link to but never, to my knowledge, posted on a chat session.

About 6 months after it happened I was in pretty bad shape and trying to cope with it. The link I will post is from a questionnaire I filled out online. I'm not sure how they verify it except to check records. Actually, as with PMH Atwater who helped me through the depression of being back and still does at times, she is one of us. One can tell another by their words and the expression on their face, the eyes are the mirror to the soul. I will say that I didn't make a deal with God, He makes no deals. If I had, it would have been to stay. Just remember, as you will and have seen, I'm not a good writer, lol. Writing this that night is the 1st time my wife had saw me cry.

Here is the link: http://www.nderf.org/anthony_k_nde.htm
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07-31-2010, 04:28 AM,
#13
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
Thank you for sharing, It was a beautiful and bittersweet thing to imagine...
but to clarify, you didn't come to comprehend the nature of existence in total, but you did come to understand what leaving this realm meant to you, right? (I'm not in any way trying to diminish this experience's meaning, but just trying to clarify where it fits in the realm of indescribable experience.)

When I've had OBE's (not NDE's) and I've come back, I've been mired in serious depression as well. Knowing what the next step is and not being able to take it is pretty traumatic. I feel for you.
[Image: conspiracy_theory.jpg]
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07-31-2010, 04:43 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-31-2010, 04:53 AM by hilly7.)
#14
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
Yes, in a way I did and in a way I didn't. It is a thing that you feel something but can't quite put your finger on it. It basically went way over what I had even known. Far more than I had expected. There is a void that cannot be filled yet there is a fill that continues to keep me going. A lot changes inside. It wasn't until then that I began looking at the world differently and started looking into all the conspiracies.

Dr Long, on the site you read mine on also deals with OBEs. http://www.nderf.org/. There may even be a forum hidden from public view like ours is, I don't know. It certainly helped me knowing and talking with others like me. Then the depression set in, they helped me with that too. PMH Atwater also helped me a lot. She is a nice lady to talk to. Just don't set back alone man, there are others out there.
Think I need to explain that. There is a hidden NDE board where we can talk with each other without being ridiculed or quoted. I go there sometimes when I have a hard time being back. You have one foot here and one foot there and a part of you feels that you don't belong in either world. Yet, despite your love of family and friends long for home. That bring on a guilty feeling.

People wonder how I withstood what I have been through but I tell you. This world can not dish out enough pain and suffering to me that would make just being back, even if for a moment, of what I had there. It is worth all the Hell this world can dish out. I quite a few times during this last battle, it was the 3rd time Denise would see tears from me in 21 years. I recorded it on my blog as I promised when I agreed to tell the truth and be open to two friends who had loved ones that died of cancer. I had promised her I would fight and I did, but especially that one night I apologized to her, sitting in my chair. I told her I quit and wanted to go home. Luckily I married a strong woman along with a strong family that aggravated me until I started back. I would have had to watch what I would have done to them by quitting.
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07-31-2010, 07:17 AM,
#15
RE: Why Did God Create Atheists?
This is the way I feel sometimes

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