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The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
03-10-2010, 03:21 AM,
#1
The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
This is a continuation of a conversation between nexus and I, though a few others were slitting in and out too. It's gone a little off-topic in the torrents, and I'd like a permanent discussion to reference to.

Old post: http://concen.org/tracker/torrents-details.php?id=14883
===================================================

nexus Wrote:does that make it right for God to take lives as he does in the bible? We are supposed to have free will, why then did God intervene in such a way as to remove it for so many people?
To be honest, this is quite simple. If God is who the bible declares Him to be, death cannot happen without His say so. But no one can deny that death teaches us great things. How would humanity be (in our current state) with no death? It's bad enough with the prospect of death, people still don't take notice and love their families, spend their time wisely or care enough for those not so fortunate as ourselves.

Job 12:10
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Let me know if you want me to elaborate here, as I am adding this bit in last and am quite sleepy...a long day (new baby due in May, have had hospital appointments with my better half 2day and have to travel).

nexus Wrote:Also, doesn't it make the whole struggle of life rather pointless? What's the purpose of us all being here if you can just go around doing whatever the hell you please and you will be forgiven no matter what?

You have to consider, that due to the differences between man and God, that God, being the Father He claims to be, must know what is best for us, and let us decide how to spend the life we have been blessed with.

This World (current life) is like a proving ground, it lets us choose what we will spend our lives doing, and in turn, our place in eternity.

I think even our current suffering, when faced with eternity, will be completely changed before our eyes. In view of eternity with the Everlasting, pain becomes something that teaches us, enable us to learn and grow...as a being, beings that ARE finite (have a beginning), and so we have needs.

God doesn't need us, but I think it's plain to see from scripture, that He wants us, out of love.

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.



nexus Wrote:Jesus supposedly incarnated to remove sin for all people. What happened to people when they died before he came to Earth?

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
(singular, denoting ALL sin, VERY often misquoted a "sins").
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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03-10-2010, 06:06 AM,
#2
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
I prescribe to the thought that the bible is misinterpreted. If you look at the ancient tablets of sumaria they talk about the gods being actual extra terrestrials. If you look at other ancient writings you'll find many of the same themes.
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03-10-2010, 11:02 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2010, 11:03 AM by Dunamis.)
#3
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
@Frozin, sorry, but the topic is quite specific:

"The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion."

So, I am sorry, but I want to remain on topic, thanks anyway.

(You should speak to the Mormons about such beliefs, they would agree with you I'd say.)
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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03-10-2010, 07:09 PM,
#4
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
Check out what George Gordon has to say. He speaks in great length and detail about how the "god of Abraham" he believes in is completely different than the god of the church, christmas and easter.

georgegordon.org
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03-11-2010, 10:37 AM,
#5
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
(03-11-2010, 05:31 AM)iC1 Wrote: Theres much to back that up Hans since easter & christmas have nothing to do with god and the bible since no mention of easter is in there nor is the celebration of christmas. Easters origins are pagan and so is christmas origins too - like with days such as valentines it doesnt represent 'love' atall but the slaughter and massacre of human beings.

Christmas is supposed to be Jesus' birthday (we know it can't possibly be the case even if he existed) and nowhere in the bible does it say you are supposed to celebrate someone's birthday. That's a pagan ritual and those are forbidden.

But there is an indirect mention. You are not supposed to go into the forest, cut down a tree, fasten it with a hammer and decorate it with gold and silver.

Quote:Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. (Jeremiah 10)

Sounds very much like a Christmas tree to me.

One other thing, the god of Abraham and the bible is NOT a nice guy.

Oh and one last thing, when you speak about "the bible" you refer to the Old Testament that was supposedly dictated by God or do you refer to the New Testament which was NOT dictated by God but is merely an amalgamation of stories and historic documents?

I have always wondered why they put together two so very different sets of documents and call it by one name. Since when is it called the "bible" anyway?
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03-11-2010, 06:08 PM,
#6
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
@Hans Olo, I do mean the bible, in it's entirety. That means the New Testament (Gospels and Early Church) as well as the Law, the Prophets and other writings (Old Testament) that Jesus Himself quoted from on many an occasion.

We will have to agree to disagree on matters of whether or not the bible, that is not the discussion here. (And yes, I know it's hard on such a subject to keep on topic, but can I ask that we do.)

Hans Olo Wrote:Since when is it called the "bible" anyway?
Since we collected the aforementioned writings together, and called them one. Bible only means Papyrus (book).
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
Reply
03-11-2010, 07:46 PM,
#7
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
(03-11-2010, 06:08 PM)Dunamis Wrote: And yes, I know it's hard on such a subject to keep on topic, but can I ask that we do.

Excuse me, but what exactly is the topic then?

I'm asking because the topic is "The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion." Isn't it? How is the 'bible' off topic then?
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03-12-2010, 01:28 AM,
#8
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
Well Hans is right on the holidays, I celebrate them anyway but they really aren't Christian. The celebration of decoration of trees came from the Pagan religion and was one of the ways they slowly worked in Pagens...sounds weird. Easter bunnies, chicks, etc came from Pagen fertility celebration. He is also right that Christians aren't suppose to participate in these, but I think it is what is in one's heart. Jesus was probably born in May or there about from what I have read. There is a good documentary called The Star of Bethlehem. I'm not sure about the birthday thing being Pagan.

As for death, it isn't what man teaches us, not to be feared and if anything, something to look forward to, at least from my experience. I have talked with some that it wasn't a good thing though. TPTB teaches us to fear death. Don't get me wrong, I believe that we should fight to live, I think God expects that, but death is a part of life. Death isn't a punishment for some, maybe most, I'd like to think all, but I know better from others.

As far as pain I can truly say it sucks, lol, but we either grow or fall from it...our decision. I can also say that pain keeps us in proper perspective. Sometimes we may even need a little pain, sometimes a lot of pain. I'll explain as best I can. Have you ever met someone who has never been sick? Usually they are not compassionate towards another person. They may be a good person in many respects but not understanding and compassionate. Most of the time they even feel superior or better than someone afflicted.

So far in these last 10 years I have had a lot of pain and while I really dislike pain, I feel I have grown from it. We are born human but we have to work hard to achieve to be a human being. I feel my wife and children have also grown from it What greater purpose can we have then to serve another to help them or better who they are? My wife use to get angry when someone, even friends call, that have had heart problems. I didn't understand why she did and would argue with her that she should have compassion and understanding. It wasn't until I had a heart attack. Now she was a nicer person than I, but she had never been sick and had not had much death in her family. It brought me and my ego down a notch and gave her compassion for others. Death took away the fear that night, as it should be yet I still have fought to live since that night. If that doesn't make sense then you have a long way to go.

Since I have and still have a Non Hodgkin's Lymphoma and this last one throat cancer which I still have a long road to go if it is gone from my lymph system. Pain is a norm these last few years and while I detest pain it has taught me a lot including losing some of my independence. I have a ways to go being a human being, IMHO, but I am closer than some who have led a pain free life so yes, pain does grow one as it humbles you.

What God leads you to He will lead you through. Now some may scoff at that and it's ok. As a great Indian Chief once said, "Its easy to be brave....from a distance."

God takes the physical life but gives life in a different form, dimension, call it what you will. Free will is your choice to accept that true life that comes after the body or to die. Death can be a punishment or reward, that is where Free Will comes into play. I tell you the history of where I come from on this. While some have "read" or "watched", I have experienced. Big Difference. Religion however will get you to Hell. So I am not religious.
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03-12-2010, 04:06 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-12-2010, 04:22 AM by Dunamis.)
#9
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
(03-11-2010, 07:46 PM)Hans Olo Wrote: Excuse me, but what exactly is the topic then?

I'm asking because the topic is "The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion." Isn't it? How is the 'bible' off topic then?

The same as it has been since I first posted. You did ask the following question (though it's quite a long winded one):

(03-11-2010, 10:37 AM)Hans Olo Wrote: Oh and one last thing, when you speak about "the bible" you refer to the Old Testament that was supposedly dictated by God or do you refer to the New Testament which was NOT dictated by God but is merely an amalgamation of stories and historic documents?

So I simply answered you:
(03-11-2010, 06:08 PM)Dunamis Wrote: And yes, I know it's hard on such a subject to keep on topic, but can I ask that we do.



hilly7 Wrote:Religion however will get you to Hell. So I am not religious.

I far from support any religious institution, but can you further explain what you mean?

Where is this "hell"?

Can you show me some evidence that you can escape "hell" and someone who may be innocently deceived by a religious movement and/or institution will go to "hell"?

As far as these pagan festivals are concerned (Christmas, Easter, St. Valentines day etc), I do not follow such "traditions" or customs. Easter should be called Passover (Pascha in Greek), not after Ishtar (Ostera, Eostre, Eastre, Astarte).

I am Pre-Constantine in the way I follow my Lord and read the bible.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
Reply
03-12-2010, 06:12 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-12-2010, 06:38 AM by hilly7.)
#10
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
"I far from support any religious institution, but can you further explain what you mean?

Where is this "hell"?

Can you show me some evidence that you can escape "hell" and someone who may be innocently deceived by a religious movement and/or institution will go to "hell"?"

First question is where is Hell. Hell is the total absence of God's love. Even the worse person, the unbeliever, believers... basically all have benefit of God's love. Not a place yet some I have spoken with say a place, but all say the loneliness from God, even those who didn't believe in Him.

Can people escape Hell, yes, but not by deeds but by Grace. You, me, and everybody else deserves Hell yet it is up to each one to account for themselves. I am not responsible for anyone but myself yet I will answer for something that I did or didn't do that effected others. Thankfully God doesn't judge us as we judge ourselves or others.

I think you can look at the dogma of all religions and religious denominations and see that. I read the Bible for what it is yet most go by what someone thinks it says. Do I do it all, no. I wish I could say I did but that would be a lie. I really don't think God needs an interpreter nor does he need help judging. I know in my own account I fell way short yet was spared. IMHO organized religion is organized control. Example is where God speaks about men and women changing sexes, an impossible feat when that was written yet possible today. Then the creatures that are given the power to hurt but not kill and the description. Another thing that sounded like a bad acid trip then. It was attributed to helicopters yet show me a helicopter that can't blow your butt off the face of mother earth. Now TPTB have created such a robot and it cannot kill with it's small size but can hurt and cause intense pain.

Do I know they will go to Hell... no. Do I think they deserve to go to Hell... no. Can I show you evidence of Hell. I sincerely hope that you are not serious. I can however point you to where you can find accounts of people that went there. Look up PHM Atwater and Dr Jeffery Long and their sites, personally it is easier to read actual accounts typed in by the people that have been proven clinically dead. So you don't get lost here is the URL http://www.nderf.org. There you can talk with people that have experienced Hell, I have not so my knowledge of Hell is second hand and there you can maybe talk with one that has. Or if you prefer, PHM has some good accounts and she may talk back with you http://www.cinemind.com/atwater.

I consider myself a Christian, maybe not a good one at times but one none the less and as such I believe in and accept Jesus Christ and yes I know that it is actually Yeshua. I also know the letter J didn't exist until King James issued it. I never saw Jesus so that is faith. We all have faith in many things. Most people never see their brakes yet when the hit the pedal they have blind faith that the car will slow and stop. We haven't seen the wind yet we see it's effects and have faith in it's destruction or help, depending upon the case. That doesn't mean that I don't respect others for their faith or no faith. I have friends that are all and none and have learned a lot from them and consider them good people.

Basically I do good to judge and improve myself.

One last example of organized religion, and most religions, not just Christianity is but I will use this since I am one. Who would you trust to babysit your children, a Catholic Priest or a Buddhist Priest?
While I am on my long winded path, Morphine does wonders, perhaps I should have tried the pot tonight to relieve the pain, lol.

IMHO, I believe the Old Testament is more a historical account. One can see it two ways. A hateful God or a loving God that teaches that for every action there is a reaction. Good produces good results and rewards while bad produces bad results and what we call punishment. The New Testament is a new pact and provides hope. If Jesus was here today such as He was then He would be damned by most preachers for He befriended some pretty rough people. Notice though that God and Jesus picked pretty bad people?

I seen a guy in church, which I seldom go, that freaked me out. This guy was the picture of evil when we were kids up until my 20s, no soul in his eyes, cold as Hell. He and I were bitter enemies, thank God we did not cross for one of us would have died. He had killed a few people but he did it well and had connections. I think people from small southern towns know how they work. He looked at me and I at him from across the isle. His eyes showed a change but every hair I had stood on edge from the hate I had carried. The preacher announced that everybody shake hands and he headed my way, extended his hand. Now I don't know what changed him, I never asked, but it was easier for him to shake my hand than I found it to be for me. We went a few more times, I think out of curiosity. This man had become a big part of the church and helped build for people that needed work done but couldn't afford it. To this day I am still amazed years later. This man was like the devil and somehow he changed. I was the smaller man for I would not have shaken his hand if had he not extended it. I can't fault all churches for that reason. It certainly changed him... and me that day.
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03-12-2010, 11:05 AM,
#11
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
(03-12-2010, 04:06 AM)Dunamis Wrote:
(03-11-2010, 07:46 PM)Hans Olo Wrote: Excuse me, but what exactly is the topic then?

The same as it has been since I first posted.

Which is?
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03-13-2010, 04:26 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-13-2010, 04:42 AM by Dunamis.)
#12
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
Not cleaver actually friend as I think religion should be destroyed...ALL religion. So no, I don't need religion, and neither does anyone else. But many want it for some messed up reason.

hilly7 Wrote:Can I show you evidence of Hell. I sincerely hope that you are not serious.
Yes, I am VERY serious thanks. When you are telling people that a loving God will separate themselves from particular people for eternity (though I don't know how that's possible with a God that's everywhere and hold existence in place, because that means He has to directly punish people, for infinity to "pay" for their finite sin). That's not the God of the bible.

On such issues we MUST be sure, as if we are wrong, well, imagine how many people don't even listen due to the "fire and brimstone" being preached since the days of Constantine.

hilly7 Wrote:Do I know they will go to Hell... no. Do I think they deserve to go to Hell... no. Can I show you evidence of Hell. I sincerely hope that you are not serious. I can however point you to where you can find accounts of people that went there. Look up PHM Atwater and Dr Jeffery Long and their sites, personally it is easier to read actual accounts typed in by the people that have been proven clinically dead......
I can show you accounts of reptilian races, Aliens abducting people, etc, that doesn't make it true, or real.

Scripture is the ONLY way to go on such a topic, and here a few appropriate ones:

Quote:1 Timothy 2:3-6
...For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Testified in DUE TIME??? Why not...right away?

Quote:1 Timothy 4:10-11
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. These things command and teach.

But NOT limited to those who believe, yet TOO many claim this to be untrue, and that God is only the Saviour of those that choose God, rather than those that God chooses, everyone, as evidenced by this following verses:

Quote:2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
So God's will is that all men be saved? Will God achieve His will in this respect, as we know he does not always get what He desires (men to not sin for example)? Or will he hold some in an eternal Hell?

Quote:John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Quote:John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Quote:Acts 3:20-21
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution [renewing/restoration] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Quote:Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Quote:John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me (which is everything and everyone) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So, can you please, from SCRIPTURE, tell me about this hell you speak of, the one that you say is absent of God, though that seems refuted by scripture:

Quote:Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Unless hell shouldn't always be translated as such. Which would mean the bible is often read on this subject with the wrong meaning attached by out definition of what hell is and is not. Here is merely means grave (sheol).

Like Carlton Pearson, I'd rather be in error that God has more grace and love (no hell) than wrong the other way round anyway. It won't change how I follow, would it you?


@Hans Olo, I am sure you can read my last post, and the title, therein are the answers, I've not the time for games, sorry friend.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
Reply
03-13-2010, 08:33 AM,
#13
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
So it's the topic in the title then?

"The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion."?

That's what I was talking about. How is the 'bible' off-topic when the topic is the title? You know what, you're not making any sense. And then you accuse me of playing games? Excuse me, but I think you are out of line my friend.

There is an Old Testament and a New Testament, you just decide to call it 'the bible' because you think it's one set of rules. But it couldn't be farther from the truth. They are separate sets of rules, very very different. So when you ask the question how is the God from religion different from the one in the bible, you're making a huge mistake. There is not one God in the bible. They are two very different characters, with very different rules. I want people to be aware of that.
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03-13-2010, 08:56 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-13-2010, 09:03 AM by hilly7.)
#14
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
Quote:"Yes, I am VERY serious thanks. When you are telling people that a loving God will separate themselves from particular people for eternity (though I don't know how that's possible with a God that's everywhere and hold existence in place, because that means He has to directly punish people, for infinity to "pay" for their finite sin). That's not the God of the bible.

On such issues we MUST be sure, as if we are wrong, well, imagine how many people don't even listen due to the "fire and brimstone" being preached since the days of Constantine."

God does not damn anyone to Hell (separation from God), they condemn themselves. Heaven would not be worth going to with people like TPTB who are moral-less. That doesn't mean that they cannot get forgiven if they ask. So it is the person that damns themselves. I do not know why that is so hard for you to grasp. I think if you quit taking bits and pieces and look at the whole you would know that. That is the thing, it isn't negotiable of pick and choose, you take it all or none, a package deal. You wish to quote the Bible, here is a quote:

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Pretty plain. That doesn't make God cruel. God has granted all free will. That means that He doesn't want to scare you to Him, it is your choice. He is incapable of 7 things, one of which is hate.

Quote:I can show you accounts of reptilian races, Aliens abducting people, etc, that doesn't make it true, or real.

Scripture is the ONLY way to go on such a topic, and here a few appropriate ones:

You are reading a book that some have experienced. Some of us experienced God while some experienced Hell. The key words are " I can show you accounts", we are talking about people who experienced on a first hand level. Now I stood in the Light of God and you would take those of us that experienced good yet you would not give merit to those that experienced bad? Those who experienced bad changed more than those of us that experienced God. If you go to Dr Long's site you will find that we are all checked thoroughly before being added with clinical proof. But again, you want scripture? Ok:, here is a small sampling:

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now I wouldn't discredit "aliens", not that I look into that a lot but I believe there are many dimensions and rather than galactic being, inter-dimensional beings. That could very well be the fallen ones. Then again, who knows, but something is going on. There have been many people witnessed this phenomenon, some on this board and I would not dare to call them liars. I would take them at their word, but that is just me. You would be better served expanding your realm of knowledge. There are those that read a lot but are not well read.

You are reading scriptures and picking and choosing, part of why I don't go to church and the problem I have with religious people. I will agree though that God doesn't want you to run to Him out of fear BUT, He wants you to know the reaction of you actions. If I tell you the bridge is out and there is 1000 ft drop off and you will wreck and die if you attempt to cross it, I am not threatening you but rather warning you. I am trying to keep you from harm but if you are dumb enough or proud enough to feel it doesn't apply and do it anyway, who's fault is that?

I will be the first to admit that I have friends that are a totally different belief they know more of the Bible than I, and from the looks of it you as well, lol. I will be the first to admit that I questioned the existence of God, which the Bible says He has many names, God is what He is. As I thought I had become more learned, I questioned His existence. Thus the last few breaths I lost the bravery. Again I quote an Indian Chief, "It is easy to be brave at a distance". I asked for forgiveness and received it by Grace. You really have no idea until you experience Him and unfortunately I can't accurately describe Him and convey greatness, and the absence of religion.

You are probably not going to agree with this video either, but listen to the first part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F35Qv-xELpU
(03-13-2010, 08:33 AM)Hans Olo Wrote: So it's the topic in the title then?

"The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion."?

That's what I was talking about. How is the 'bible' off-topic when the topic is the title? You know what, you're not making any sense. And then you accuse me of playing games? Excuse me, but I think you are out of line my friend.

There is an Old Testament and a New Testament, you just decide to call it 'the bible' because you think it's one set of rules. But it couldn't be farther from the truth. They are separate sets of rules, very very different. So when you ask the question how is the God from religion different from the one in the bible, you're making a huge mistake. There is not one God in the bible. They are two very different characters, with very different rules. I want people to be aware of that.

Well said.
Reply
03-13-2010, 10:59 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-13-2010, 11:04 AM by Dunamis.)
#15
RE: The Christ and God of the bible, as opposed to those of religion.
Can someone explain this to me then:

Quote:John 5:25, 28-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live...
...Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

and these two in context of one another:

Quote:Psalm 90:3
Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

Quote:Psalm 102:19-20
For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.


MOST of all though, if the "Second Death" ("And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Rev 20:14) is to last for eternity, then that nullifies what Paul wrote to the Church in Corinth:

Quote:1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.



Mark 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -- 1 John 2:6
"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly... This is the interrelated structure of reality." -- Martin Luther King Jr.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -- Proverbs 18:13
"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." -- Leo Tolstoy
"To love is to be vulnerable" -- C.S Lewis

The Kingdom of God is within you! -- Luke 17:20-21

https://duckduckgo.com/
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