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Reincarnation In The Bible
11-05-2006, 01:03 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-05-2006, 01:03 AM by deathstickboy.)
#1
Reincarnation In The Bible
Quote:The Transfiguration
1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.

2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

10The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"

11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.

12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd : Vituð ér enn eða hvat?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Image: madwolfoy0.jpg][Image: sharksmall1kd6.jpg][Image: bearkodiakchugachfe7.jpg]
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11-05-2006, 05:37 AM,
#2
Reincarnation In The Bible
I think there may be a kink in this argument in that to be reincarnated you'd have to first die. Elijah (like Enoch) did not die but simply went elsewhere, so I think you might have a case of extreme longevity or immortality, but not reincarnation here.

On that note, I'm kind of surprised that a mutation has not manifested itself which does indeed keep continuing health and prevent aging... of course it could have and any that might have had it could have died by misadventure before it became apparent... or an undying person might rightfully realize that they would become a target of possible violence, for various reasons, and decide to hide it and remain anonymous in hermitage - perhaps popping back into the world every now and then and applying the enormous wisdom they had amassed over the ages to the betterment of mankind. I'd imagine someone like that might be called a polymath by those who encountered them on those infrequent forrays back into society.

Just speculating of course.
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11-05-2006, 05:51 AM,
#3
Reincarnation In The Bible
Was John the Baptist born or not?

I think you will find that he had a mother. Your theory does not play out unless he found a way to reverse his age, and if he had such tricks up his sleeve, why was his head cut off?

Being re-born is the main aspect of re-incarnation. Elijah being "physically transported to heaven" is still the equivalent of "death" is it not? The fact that the vehicle that took him to heaven is described as what suspicously seems to be a "flying wheel(saucer)" only complicates matters, but that is another story.

Within the context of reincarnation, this passage "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things" seems to speak in the present/future tense, implying that Elijah will "come again to restore all things" at some point.
Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd : Vituð ér enn eða hvat?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Image: madwolfoy0.jpg][Image: sharksmall1kd6.jpg][Image: bearkodiakchugachfe7.jpg]
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11-05-2006, 06:30 AM,
#4
Reincarnation In The Bible
Okay well first, I don't think that being transported to heaven can be equated with death - in this case - especially since care seems to have been taken to make it clear that he didn't die.

Also, as far as I remember, John is described as an adult everywhere except the Gospel of Luke, so there is not much in the way of corroboration, and in any case, if you were an immortal reentering society it's fairly likely that you'd adopt someone elses identity to do so.

Finally, I'm not so sure I can accept:
13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
the obvious interpretation by the disciples as being correct in the first place. The disciples often to me seem to be bumbling about and drawing wrong conclusions and have to be corrected from time to time.

I'm not trying to poke holes in this reincarnation theory, I just like to bang things around a bit to see what shakes loose in order to get a better understanding. :)

I'm not certain of anything, so I'll try to view it all from a perspectie of naivete.
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11-05-2006, 09:42 AM,
#5
Reincarnation In The Bible
Quote:I'm not certain of anything, so I'll try to view it all from a perspectie of naivete.

:)a'ight.

Quote:Okay well first, I don't think that being transported to heaven can be equated with death - in this case - especially since care seems to have been taken to make it clear that he didn't die.

see:

Quote:9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

John the Baptist nor Elijah nor the son of man are entities that exist on Earth without a cast,
their spirits may travel to heaven or beyond, but when they return to earth and are witnessed
by people as existing in the flesh, they are certainly reincarnate [back in the flesh], not?

by my logic:
"raise from the dead" = come to life again.
they are not speaking of a spirit ceasing to exist alltogether and then reappearing,
but they are talking about the returning of a spirit to a cast [re-incarnation]
incarnation of divine spirit to flesh makes the creature Avatar of God as the spirit [father].
Quote:avatar
1784, from Skt. avatarana "descent" (of a deity to the earth in incarnate form), from ava- "down" + base of tarati "(he) crosses over."

peace'
standvast.
If Thine I that I spy with my own little I Doeth Offend thee ; Pluck It out.

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11-05-2006, 05:46 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-05-2006, 05:48 PM by deathstickboy.)
#6
Reincarnation In The Bible
Quote:Okay well first, I don't think that being transported to heaven can be equated with death - in this case - especially since care seems to have been taken to make it clear that he didn't die.

Ok, well this is still from the perspective in Christian mythology, that dying is bad, and getting to heaven is the only salvation from it, and basically the entire purpose.
So going to heaven implies death, but Enoch and Elijah were simply spared the "suffering" of death by gods good graces, because they were 2 of his favorites.

Cooroboration aside from Luke?:LOL: Come on man, its "the word of God".:P

Even Jesus had to be born, even though he supposedly was also pre-existant to creation being part of the trinity, where as Elijah was just a prohpet, so how does a lesser being do it? Are you saying if Elijah was riding a UFOs for a few hundred years, before reversing his age back to appearing to be around 30 years old, just to go back and Baptize Jesus and then have his head cut off?
I mean, it just doesn't make sense. B)

Quote:13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
the obvious interpretation by the disciples as being correct in the first place. The disciples often to me seem to be bumbling about and drawing wrong conclusions and have to be corrected from time to time.
No argument there, but to consider that you would actually have throw the entire book into question, now wouldn't you?
Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd : Vituð ér enn eða hvat?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Image: madwolfoy0.jpg][Image: sharksmall1kd6.jpg][Image: bearkodiakchugachfe7.jpg]
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11-07-2006, 12:26 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-07-2006, 12:27 AM by DHammer.)
#7
Reincarnation In The Bible
this has been debunked a long long time ago ... Chessmuscle held the same views.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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11-07-2006, 06:36 AM,
#8
Reincarnation In The Bible
This hasn't been debunked at all, in fact I'd venture that an entire field of study could be created around this concept and its implications alone. The problem here though is that I think we're all coming at the problem with preconceived notions... in most things I can put all that aside, but in this case I'm finding it difficult to obtain an objective point of view. Still working on it though.


As an aside... "you would actually have throw the entire book into question, now wouldn't you?" - Indeed, and I do. Putting it into question though does not mean dispensing with all parts, wholesale. That would be a horrible waste and loss imo. The trick is doing what you can to divine the truth as best you can... not an easy trick to pull off. :)
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11-07-2006, 11:28 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-07-2006, 11:37 AM by DHammer.)
#9
Reincarnation In The Bible
Quote:in most things I can put all that aside, but in this case I'm finding it difficult to obtain an objective point of view. Still working on it though.

lol


Quote:As an aside... "you would actually have throw the entire book into question, now wouldn't you?"
it's either from a perfect God or written by men.





Quote:this hasn't been debunked at all

link
check that link out.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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11-07-2006, 04:43 PM,
#10
Reincarnation In The Bible
Ah, well that settles the whole matter then. Who are we to question answers from some random joker on yahoo?
;)
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11-07-2006, 06:54 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-07-2006, 06:55 PM by deathstickboy.)
#11
Reincarnation In The Bible
Quote:this has been debunked a long long time ago ... Chessmuscle held the same views.

You cannot "debunk" a subjective opinion on a mythological text. :biggrin:

Quote:it's either from a perfect God or written by men.

Well it claims to be From perfect god, but actually written by men.
So you can apply ocams razor to your own comment and remove that silly idea that God had anything to do with it.
Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd : Vituð ér enn eða hvat?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Image: madwolfoy0.jpg][Image: sharksmall1kd6.jpg][Image: bearkodiakchugachfe7.jpg]
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11-07-2006, 11:01 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-07-2006, 11:02 PM by DHammer.)
#12
Reincarnation In The Bible
Quote:You cannot "debunk" a subjective opinion on a mythological text. biggrin.gif

But you can debunk flawed arguments and theories. And it's not mythological.

Quote:Well it claims to be From perfect God, but actually written by men.

The message is spiritual, it has nothing to do with THIS world, the words are spiritual. The Bible itself is nothing more but a bunch of papers glued together.

Quote:Ah, well that settles the whole matter then. Who are we to question answers from some random joker on yahoo?
;)
have you checked that link out and what those people have to say ? no you didn't, and you claim to have, or aspire to an "objective viewpoint" ROFL
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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11-08-2006, 02:24 AM,
#13
Reincarnation In The Bible
Either you take the Scriptures to be merely the word of man - then it would not really matter, if it teaches reincarnation or not, as it would just represent someone's ancient opinion - Or you receive the Scriptures as being truly the Word of God - then it matters a great deal, because you could actually know, if reincarnation is real or not.

Based on receiving the Bible as the Word of God, I would recommend this link with a more thorough examination of this question: http://www.letusreason.org/NAM2.htm
'Prove and scrutinize all things; hold fast that which is good.'
'And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.' Paul of Tarsus

Rise to a higher plane? Look here
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11-08-2006, 04:23 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-08-2006, 04:25 AM by deathstickboy.)
#14
Reincarnation In The Bible
Well, Knowing that the bible is mythology (which it is) and having had a near death experience, I can be fairly certain, based on that experience, that reincarnation is indeed possible.

Quote:The message is spiritual, it has nothing to do with THIS world, the words are spiritual.

All the words are spiritual? To me it sounds like about 95% of the book has to do with "this world".
So and so begat so and so, so and so killed this tribe, raped those women, and burned bloody sacrifices to Yahweh is "spiritual"?

Ok then.

I personally think that anyone who considers the bible to be "spiritual" has not actually read any truely spiritual material.
The bible is mostly made of mythological tales loosely based on history, blatant astrotheological/astrological allegories, and a smattering of spiritually inspired writings, all of which was written and compiled into a doctine by very questionable men.

It must take a lot of faith to consider that to be "the word of God", and a signifigant amount of cognitive dissonance in order to so often confuse metaphor with a literal description.
How can both Jesus, and the king of Babylon during Isaiah's time, be "the bright and morning star" also known as Venus?
Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd : Vituð ér enn eða hvat?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Image: madwolfoy0.jpg][Image: sharksmall1kd6.jpg][Image: bearkodiakchugachfe7.jpg]
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11-08-2006, 04:42 AM,
#15
Reincarnation In The Bible
Quote:Reincarnation In The Bible, it doesn't get much clearer than this

Yes it IS made much clearer. In a single sentence even...


Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
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