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Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
05-13-2009, 03:00 AM,
#61
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:You gave it a definitive statement, whole paragraph in which a sentance is only part. Accidentally or purposefully, no matter. Creation in a lab is not natural.
What I wrote was "I've explained that engineering something like the Spanish flu simply was not possible with the science of the day. It might not even be possible or feasible today."
If you interpret a statement beginning with "might" as definitive, I would probably consider you borderline illiterate.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
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05-13-2009, 03:18 AM,
#62
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Reality check,

"Viruses are very hard to work with, even with modern methods. At my university, in the entire undergraduate microbiology program, never once does the opportunity arise to work with viruses. And my university is one of the few in the country that has a dedicated microbiology program, and the program may well be the best of its kind anywhere in America. I stand by my analogy of the nomads building stealth bombers.

In bio, you can't even get halfway through undergrad without hitting the limits of what we know.

I've explained that engineering something like the Spanish flu simply was not possible with the science of the day. It might not even be possible or feasible today. After I establish "What you speculate is not possible," what more can be said? As far as addressing "lay common sense appraisals," such would be futile because laypeople are nearly always badly misinformed when it comes to scientific matters.

My point was that early twentieth-century scientists wouldn't have any chance of being able to develop germ weapons. Certainly bacteriologists would be hopeless to try.

On what basis do you make such a claim? Are you just rejecting all known mainstream sources for the sake of doing so?"

Now thats not including the Im so smart and your so dumb statements.

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05-13-2009, 03:29 AM,
#63
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:Reality check,
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with those quotes. Could you elaborate?
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
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05-13-2009, 03:45 AM,
#64
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Just connecting the dots. You're a bright boy, figure it out.
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05-13-2009, 05:17 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-13-2009, 05:31 AM by ---.)
#65
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:My theory? I haven't developed an in-depth theory of the situation in that town, nor am I qualified to do so. You, on the other hand, seem quite certain it was Mengele's doing. What Mengele could possibly have done you have no idea, of course, but he must have done "something.":rolleyes:Here is what some actual scientists think. Honestly, I mostly ignore the claims of historians when they try to talk about science. It's a shame you're taking a historian's word as though it were gospel.

Actually, I had read that short article before - and yes, I DO think the historian is much more likely yo be on the money in this specific instance.

From your 'debunking' article:

Quote:Although Camarasa argues that the high prevalence of blonde hair and blue eyes among the twins could be evidence of Mengele's "Aryanising" influence, Matte points out that the village was founded by German immigrants who often have such features.

"In addition, I don't think Mengele would have the knowledge, not to mention the means, to engender the rise in twin births in this community," she says. "It's noteworthy that twin births occurred there in almost every time period, even in the 1990s, so what kind of long-lasting manipulation could he have perpetrated?"

Obviously one which she isn't privy to - therefore it surely can't exist - another example of arrogance stemming from an almost quasi-religious reliance on currently held models of thought. 'I don't think Mengele would have had the knowledge' - well, that clears that up, then:rolleyes:

Quote:Twin births have been linked to exposure to toxic waste and increased use of IVF, but even now, says Matte, we don't fully understand the mechanisms involved, "and it is extremely hard for me to think that Mengele would have known it in the late 1960s," she says.

So essentially, it's her conjecture - she 'doesn't think' it possible - what's more, better to ignore the testimony of the actual villagers themselves:rolleyes:

Sounds more like fumbling damage control lol


Quote:Well aside perhaps from the outbreaks all centring around army bases.
Quote:That's pretty much what would be expected, if you consider the epidemiology.

And if the vaccines they were given had ultimately have proved to have backfired in a truly horrific way - we still wouldn't be reading about it the history books now either.

Quote:I don't feel like responding to all the quotes, but from what I've observed most of the educated class regards Malthus with contempt.

If you don't feel like responding whenever you choose - best not to make all encompassing derisory statements to the idea in the first place. The operative word in your sentiment above is 'most' - and that doesn't necessarily translate to 'most influential' or 'most important' either. You broach the subject by claiming it as "crap" and then cry non interest. That's more like "crap" tbh:rolleyes:

LOL even JR has finally managed to get his head round with what we've been saying here now for such a long time. Do your own legwork, Orwell or otherwise desist from the desultory comments with less than no understanding about it.:)

I'm sure many lives have been saved in the global south through the banning of DDT as a mosquito control. for instance. Malthus is alive and well, actually.



Quote:I don't think it necessitates such a 'black or white' totality of view, personally.
Quote:So you just accept or reject a source based on whether it confirms your preexisting biases. Glad that's clear now.

All that is clear is that you have attempted to twist words and thereby slip in an entirely malign supposition upon such - this would be indicative of an unscrupulous seam running through your intellectual strata, methinks. As I need to further explain for you - 'nuance'. 'I have no interest at this time':LOL:in indulging you in anything even more explicable.

Quote:The experts are frequently wrong, but they get more accurate as time goes on and the total body of knowledge expands. I certainly trust them over the obtuse ramblings of random people on the Internet, and I don't think that's an outrageous position to hold. No, peer review is no an infallible mechanism, because infallible mechanisms do not exist. What's your point?

Ok, if you need to be pedantic - peer reviewed is a deeply flawed mechanism as the model for scientific consensus and it's apparatus of evaluation as it currently stands imsho which no doubt is informed further by the body of scientists critical of the now seemingly inherent politicisation of recent decades, supplication to corporate funding well ergo bias over impartiality and career protectionist mores.

Yes, obtuse is a good descriptive word that's why I used it a couple of posts earlier.

There's no worth in me telling you 'my point' at this juncture, Orwell.
Quote:I certainly trust them over the obtuse ramblings of random people on the Internet, and I don't think that's an outrageous position to hold.

Yes, I like the word obtuse too, that's why I chose to use it so recently ie just a post or two ago in this thread. Say it's an outrageous position all you like - I'd certainly agree, however it certainly goes no way to describe my own postion - if that was the implication? (rhetorical) lol
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05-13-2009, 05:55 AM,
#66
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:Actually, I had read that short article before - and yes, I DO think the historian is much more likely yo be on the money in this specific instance.
I tend to discount the opinions of people who are well out of their area of expertise, but to each his own.

Quote:From your 'debunking' article:

Quote:Although Camarasa argues that the high prevalence of blonde hair and blue eyes among the twins could be evidence of Mengele's "Aryanising" influence, Matte points out that the village was founded by German immigrants who often have such features.

"In addition, I don't think Mengele would have the knowledge, not to mention the means, to engender the rise in twin births in this community," she says. "It's noteworthy that twin births occurred there in almost every time period, even in the 1990s, so what kind of long-lasting manipulation could he have perpetrated?"

Obviously one which she isn't privy to - therefore it surely can't exist - another example of arrogance stemming from an almost quasi-religious reliance on currently held models of thought. 'I don't think Mengele would have had the knowledge' - well, that clears that up, then:rolleyes:
The point is that if the modern scientific community doesn't know something, it's unlikely that a WWII-era loose cannon was able to find some incredible advancement. Especially since Mengele was not known for scientific rigour.

Quote:
Quote:Twin births have been linked to exposure to toxic waste and increased use of IVF, but even now, says Matte, we don't fully understand the mechanisms involved, "and it is extremely hard for me to think that Mengele would have known it in the late 1960s," she says.

So essentially, it's her conjecture - she 'doesn't think' it possible - what's more, better to ignore the testimony of the actual villagers themselves:rolleyes:
Biologists equivocate a lot, and usually refrain from making absolute statements. It's a habit they form from being in a field that almost never has complete certainty. I read that statement as "It is highly implausible that Mengele acting alone in the 1960s would have a greater understanding of the mechanisms behind twin genetics than the entire modern medical community."

Quote:If you don't feel like responding whenever you choose - best not to make all encompassing derisory statements to the idea in the first place. The operative word in your sentiment above is 'most' - and that doesn't necessarily translate to 'most influential' or 'most important' either. You broach the subject by claiming it as "crap" and then cry non interest. That's more like "crap" tbh:rolleyes:
You spammed a few dozen quotes, I don't have the time to go through them one-by-one, nor do I see why I should be defending anyone else's words.

Quote:I'm sure many lives have been saved in the global south through the banning of DDT as a mosquito control. for instance. Malthus is alive and well, actually.
I disagree, I'm pretty convinced that DDT would in fact be capable of saving many lives in malaria-plagued Africa if properly used. In sufficiently high quantities it can be harmful (at least to birds), but at more responsible levels it only has a measurable impact on the mosquitoes.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Reply
05-13-2009, 06:27 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-13-2009, 06:28 AM by ---.)
#67
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
um, that WAS my point about DDT... sorry, I employ casual irony quite often in how I word things - I think it might be an English trait *shrugs*

Quote:I tend to discount the opinions of people who are well out of their area of expertise, but to each his own.

Well, he does seem to have investigated it rather thoroughly - but you're discounting his research solely due to the nature of his background. Each to their own, indeed. I think all in all he has presented a strong case.

I guess the fact that there was a postwar race amongst the Soviets and Anglo-American power bases to secure as many nazi scientists as possible might illustrate how advanced their research actually was. The rest disappearing with Bormann, of course.

Quote:it's unlikely that a WWII-era loose cannon was able to find some incredible advancement.
Quote:I read that statement as "It is highly implausible that Mengele acting alone in the 1960s would have a greater understanding of the mechanisms behind twin genetics than the entire modern medical community."

It certainly would be a bit of a slap in the face wouldn't it? (rhetorical)


Quote:You spammed a few dozen quotes, I don't have the time to go through them one-by-one, nor do I see why I should be defending anyone else's words.

spamming? why so? What gives you grounds to level such a claim against me? :angry2:

You don't have to defend their words - only your own ie. that the 'depopulation myth is crap' It becomes clear now what I was implying about the banning of DDT?
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05-13-2009, 06:52 AM,
#68
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:um, that WAS my point about DDT... sorry, I employ casual irony quite often in how I word things - I think it might be an English trait *shrugs*
OK, I see. I don't always catch irony, being autistic and all. As far as DDT banning being a depopulation measure... I'd be more inclined to blame hysterical environmentalists such as Carson. It seems more like an overreaction than a deliberate malice to me. Hanlon's Razor and all.

Quote:I guess the fact that there was a postwar race amongst the Soviets and Anglo-American power bases to secure as many nazi scientists as possible might illustrate how advanced their research actually was. The rest disappearing with Bormann, of course.
We always try to grab our former enemy's scientists. We did the same with Japan and with the USSR. It may have been advanced for its time, but I don't see any reason to believe it's more modern than what exists today. Besides that, IIRC we mostly got physicists and ballistics experts (such as Wernher von Braun) from the Nazis. We have bought off most of the old Soviet bioweapons researchers- since, as far as public knowledge goes, bioweapons research was halted years ago, the Soviets were as advanced as anyone ever got in that field.

Quote:
Quote:it's unlikely that a WWII-era loose cannon was able to find some incredible advancement.
Quote:I read that statement as "It is highly implausible that Mengele acting alone in the 1960s would have a greater understanding of the mechanisms behind twin genetics than the entire modern medical community."

It certainly would be a bit of a slap in the face wouldn't it? (rhetorical)
Yes it would (I answer rhetorical questions). It seems really unlikely. I'd have to see some pretty convincing evidence.

Quote:You don't have to defend their words - only your own ie. that the 'depopulation myth is crap' It becomes clear now what I was implying about the banning of DDT?
I have, on occasion, heard people make comments about "population control" or similar things. Generally speaking, those people are not sincere in their comments. Usually they are being facetious and jocular, or are just talking the talk and would never have the constitution to actually pull it off. Have you ever seen the movie "Rope" by Alfred Hitchcock? Most of the people who are observed making such foolish comments about depopulation are like Rupert. As far as the banning of DDT, again, I think that's more due to misunderstanding than anything else. The people who are actually heartless enough to attempt to effect the death of millions or billions of people are few and far between, thankfully.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
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05-13-2009, 07:26 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-13-2009, 07:44 AM by ---.)
#69
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:As far as the banning of DDT, again, I think that's more due to misunderstanding than anything else. The people who are actually heartless enough to attempt to effect the death of millions or billions of people are few and far between, thankfully.

Hanlon aside, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one. It was known for a long time that DDT save lives yet the sanction remained. Some countries like Namibia (?) actually flouting the ban and risking international prosecution because, I assume, they were just so vexed at the continually increasing mortality rates due to malarial infection - all because of a UN ban on use of DDT. Hanlon to hell - that's targeted measures toward population reduction.

One of the people I mentioned in a different thread; Archivides Kalokerinos; that you had no interest in familiarising yourself with at the time, became convinced that a depopulation programme had been consciously waged against the Aboriginals of Australia..perhaps familiarise yourself at some point to his investigations. We know what happened to the Tasmanians.

Carson et al have become the unwitting screeching preachers for a Gaian fascism. Arrested development and sanctions against improving infrastructures in many 'developing' countries are in effect genocidal imho - if we apply Jared Diamond's cited definition of such, found in 'The Third Chimpanzee'. I balk at the notion that this is simply due to stupidity on the parts of the policy makers in the "Developed" World.

In terms of the quote above..I don't know if you are familiar with A.Lobaczewski's 'Political Ponerology' - it's worth taking a look imsho http://www.ponerology.com/
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05-13-2009, 08:21 AM,
#70
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:
Quote:As far as the banning of DDT, again, I think that's more due to misunderstanding than anything else. The people who are actually heartless enough to attempt to effect the death of millions or billions of people are few and far between, thankfully.

Hanlon aside, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one. It was known for a long time that DDT save lives yet the sanction remained. Some countries like Namibia (?) actually flouting the ban and risking international prosecution because, I assume, they were just so vexed at the continually increasing mortality rates due to malarial infection - all because of a UN ban on use of DDT. Hanlon to hell - that's targeted measures toward population reduction.
I think the UN sanctions are more that policy is made by people unfamiliar with the science, and they don't want to risk the PR backlash of allowing DDT in third-world countries when we refuse to use it in developed nations. To do that would look quite a bit like a depopulation measure, and if the UN allowed DDT in Africa I am certain you would point to that as evidence of a depopulation scheme.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Reply
05-13-2009, 08:25 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-13-2009, 08:30 AM by ---.)
#71
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:As far as the banning of DDT, again, I think that's more due to misunderstanding than anything else. The people who are actually heartless enough to attempt to effect the death of millions or billions of people are few and far between, thankfully.

Hanlon aside, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one. It was known for a long time that DDT save lives yet the sanction remained. Some countries like Namibia (?) actually flouting the ban and risking international prosecution because, I assume, they were just so vexed at the continually increasing mortality rates due to malarial infection - all because of a UN ban on use of DDT. Hanlon to hell - that's targeted measures toward population reduction.
I think the UN sanctions are more that policy is made by people unfamiliar with the science, and they don't want to risk the PR backlash of allowing DDT in third-world countries when we refuse to use it in developed nations. To do that would look quite a bit like a depopulation measure, and if the UN allowed DDT in Africa I am certain you would point to that as evidence of a depopulation scheme.

Such a certainty is wholly based on your own uninformed prejudices as to my outlook. UN policy pertaining to such things is made without consulting expert scientists?? I doubt that.

And if the UN was so worried about PR backlashes then they wouldn't have been intransigent in allowing - nay, FACILITATING the genocide in Rwanda. The UN doesn't give a fuck about 'PR backlashes" Orwell - or at least not to the level you speculate anyhow - perhaps when it comes to things like the Dutroix case, you may well be right though - but that is/would have been a completely different kind of PR disaster really - the public deals with exposes of complicity in genocide a lot more ambivalently than ritual child abuse rings, I dare say.

Besides there is a chasm of difference between what 'looks like' a depopulation measure and what ACTUALLY functions as one.

Thanks for letting me know how you imagine my mind works, though;)It's all good to know lol
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05-13-2009, 08:32 AM,
#72
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:Such a certainty is wholly based on your own uninformed prejudices as to my outlook. UN policy pertaining to such things is made without consulting expert scientists?? I doubt that.

Besides there is a chasm of difference between what 'looks like' a depopulation measure and what ACTUALLY functions as one.

Thanks for letting me know how you imagine my mind works, though;)It's all good to know lol
No, such is based on basic psychology. Everyone is susceptible to confirmation bias, though most everyone believes they are immune to it. Even those who acknowledge their own confirmation bias maintain a delusional belief that they are less affected by it than others.

UN policy consults scientists, of course, but they also listen to the extremely vocal (and often extremely uninformed) tree-hugging whack jobs who refuse to consider issues such as dosage and cost-benefit analysis. In the end, scientists are less likely to make a big PR mess of it than the treehuggers are.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
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05-13-2009, 09:04 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-13-2009, 09:05 AM by ---.)
#73
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
Quote:
Quote:Such a certainty is wholly based on your own uninformed prejudices as to my outlook. UN policy pertaining to such things is made without consulting expert scientists?? I doubt that.

Besides there is a chasm of difference between what 'looks like' a depopulation measure and what ACTUALLY functions as one.

Thanks for letting me know how you imagine my mind works, though;)It's all good to know lol
No, such is based on basic psychology. Everyone is susceptible to confirmation bias, though most everyone believes they are immune to it. Even those who acknowledge their own confirmation bias maintain a delusional belief that they are less affected by it than others.

UN policy consults scientists, of course, but they also listen to the extremely vocal (and often extremely uninformed) tree-hugging whack jobs who refuse to consider issues such as dosage and cost-benefit analysis. In the end, scientists are less likely to make a big PR mess of it than the treehuggers are.

LOL I'm aware of confirmation bias - but as you point out, no one is immune ergo it was either a moot point or a wee dig ..

Perhaps the UN listened to it's own publications too..such as Agenda 21 and the still controversial Eco92 document that was allegedly leaked out before the 1992 Earth Summit - or even that memorable tome 'Limited to Growth', for that matter.

Genocidal, consciously adopted, policy decisions not uming and ering assuaged by the protestations of 'vocal tree hugging whackjobs' is my take on it, as you might already have gathered by now lol

It's probably worthwhile for us to pay some time analysing if and where a nexus between radical eco-movements, the Green Agenda and the UN occurs, at some point.
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05-14-2009, 05:11 AM,
#74
Was The "spanish Flu" Epidemic Man-made?
The UN, Green Agenda, Codex ... there is a myrid of departments started by one group after WW2. While sometimes they seem at odds, its no better than the good cop bad cop scenerio. A fake wrestling match if you will.

Mentioning DDT brings to mine something I've noticedlately in this water logged south, Mosquitoes. We are full of them here.
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