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China Shifts To Euros For Iran Oil
04-11-2007, 05:37 PM,
#16
China Shifts To Euros For Iran Oil
hemp or hemp resin as a new currency - nice idea.

No, seriously, gold is a very good base for currencies. I just see problems with that in a world market as mentioned in the above comments. If we can find a way to eliminate the dangers of an unjust economy (maybe with a slightly dynamic gold price), gold and precious metals are the solution. Many good (non-mainstream) economists try to work out such a system since decades (Margrit Kennedy, Helmut Kreutz, Silvio Gesell, Roland Wirth, Günther Moewes, Bernd Senf, and many others).

But your idea of a renewable reference is nevertheless worth thinking about, but not as a base for currencies, but for a redefinition of the interest rates. Unfortunately I am not competent to elaborate about interest rates, but the thing I know is that these rates have a huge impact on all economies. The big headlines of commerce newspapers are not exchange rates, it's the change of the interest rate of a national bank, e.g. from 3 3/8% to 3 4/8%.
A renewable reference would imply a negative interest rate. The longer you keep your money, the less capital you have. During the great depression, a small village called Wörgl (Austria) introduced such a system. As a result, they had enough money/food/goods, until the government, under nazi pressure, forbid it and soon after, Wörgl suffered the same fate as the rest of Europe, great poverty.

I resume, we have two major problems to solve: which is a secure base for our currencies, and how do we treat interest rates. I admit that these are very complex questions, but we have no choice than to deal with them. But I'm not the expert here.
I am my savior
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04-13-2007, 06:31 AM,
#17
China Shifts To Euros For Iran Oil
Quote:I'm not the expert here.
yeah Phil, i notice you say that a lot. i accept your position, as a layman (as am i) but nevertheless i think you're also one of the sharpest people around here, and i think receptive to alternative viewpoints.

Quote:I resume, we have two major problems to solve: which is a secure base for our currencies, and how do we treat interest rates. I admit that these are very complex questions, but we have no choice than to deal with them.
well i don't have any answers for you, perhaps that is down to limited thinking but i feel it is more likely foundational problems with the initial structure to the system, and to the thinking and motivation which underpins said system's operators. remember, in the eyes of religion (that is, our ethical structures) the very notion of capital interests is abhorrent - and outlawed. it's only really since the 19th century, (when the Christian church learnt to appreciate the money to be made) capital interest has become acceptable. i guess part of the reason that the Jews have been vilified and despised through the centuries is their eagerness to charge interest in direct contradiction to religious ethic.

Quote:No, seriously, gold is a very good base for currencies. I just see problems with that in a world market as mentioned in the above comments. If we can find a way to eliminate the dangers of an unjust economy (maybe with a slightly dynamic gold price), gold and precious metals are the solution. Many good (non-mainstream) economists try to work out such a system since decades (Margrit Kennedy, Helmut Kreutz, Silvio Gesell, Roland Wirth, Günther Moewes, Bernd Senf, and many others).
No, seriously, gold is absolutely the worst material to use as a base currency. Using gold as a base commodity for all transactions gives the owners of said gold the most enormous power, and rest assured we are not talking about Haiti or Bangladeshi worker cooperatives. The additional point to note here, is apart from tiny amounts in electronic components, barring decoration gold cannot really be used for anything (Thomas More in 'Utopia' used it to chain prisoners). It's value therefore is entirely conceptual, that is because one believes it. One cannot eat it, wear it (excepting ornament) shelter in it or plough with it. In itself gold is useless, and the planet could work perfectly well without it.

From that aspect, to my mind the last thing any sane person would want to do is give control over our world's true wealth to a tiny group of narcissists who happen to have hoarded a particularly useless element. One would be better off pointing at them and laughing and assuring them humanity is no longer foolish enough to fall for that trick.

Quote:A renewable reference would imply a negative interest rate. The longer you keep your money, the less capital you have. During the great depression, a small village called Wörgl (Austria) introduced such a system. As a result, they had enough money/food/goods, until the government, under nazi pressure, forbid it and soon after, Wörgl suffered the same fate as the rest of Europe, great poverty.
yes, correct, a negative interest, because the crop/product deteriorates through time (just like in the real world). it would eliminate hoarding and promote exchange. never knew about Worgl - will check it out (thanks for the tip). 'the little money book' gives some really interesting perspectives on this - the new economics foundation also has some interesting info.

Quote:hemp or hemp resin as a new currency - nice idea.
not just resin, but seed, oil, paper, rope...

in case you hadn't noticed, i'm talking on a theoretical level - none of this is useful for the present or the practical
Vitam Impendere Vero
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04-13-2007, 02:53 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-13-2007, 02:56 PM by Phil999.)
#18
China Shifts To Euros For Iran Oil
alright, I will leave the gold standard discussion, as I really have no experience in world markets and trade in general. Only from a historical view, we must acknowledge that in the medieval age many cities and huge cathedrals were built, every city had it's own currency based on precious metals, and those who had a job and lived in such a town, were doing well. The dark medieval age was not so dark as it is described today, although the lack of human rights and the inquisition can't be discussed away. And the US was really a very rich society with the gold-backed dollar.

Alastair Sawday and his "little money book" is very interesting. In the small review of that book I see many of my ideas. The idea of many small currencies is new to me, I was only thinking about one major solution, which is, probably, not possible. I did mention the dangers of a gold-standard, but I still wanted to have such a catch-all reform. When they introduced the Euro, they said many things would become easier, no exchange rates, less bureocracy, less taxes. This is true, you can buy and sell throughout Europe with the same coins and notes. So I was somehow convinced. But since the Mwst (new tax on every good, differing from country to country), I'm no more enthusiastic. We have the same mess as before, maybe even more complicated.
Quote:We should beware of catch-all solutions that are supposed to solve everything, whether they are land tax or monetary reform. There may be a place for a measure of both, but they will never change the world by themselves. The law of unintended consequences hangs heavy over single solutions, and especially over any idea that we ought to centralise the money supply so that only the government or their chosen representatives are allowed to create it.

Centralisation and monopoly has always tended towards tyranny and monoculture, and that is the problem with money as much as anything else.

If there is a single solution to the money problem it is to re-introduce diversity. Big currencies, big global systems tend towards monoculture – they drive out anything that’s different, whether they are other languages, other cultures or other species. An economy that is human and real is one with a diversity of measuring systems, and that means a diversity of different kinds of money – not neatly segregated by national boundaries, but overlapping.

That’s why I believe the future of the money is multiple currencies, to underpin different aspects of our lives. The US dollar circulates over most of the world – in fact a third of dollar bills in circulation are outside the USA – just as the euro is beginning to circulate in Britain. The cash registers at some European duty-free shops are able to accept 12 or more different currencies. But we need more: local currencies, green currencies, small business currencies, loyalty currencies, time currencies, city currencies, babysitting currencies – to give ordinary people and places that don’t quite fit the shiny new world of globalisation what they need to maintain life.
quote from the review of Alastair Sawday's book.


Quote:nef is an independent 'think and do' tank. We believe in economics as if people and the planet mattered.
These words from the main page from the new economics foundation are brilliant. I will search around there, it seems they have more brains than the parecon people.


The more I deal with it, the more I realize that I have so much to learn about economy. I wouldn't deal with it if it was not one of the major problems we have today. So I use that little brain that I have left for economical questions and do what I can. I want to apologize for my simple-minded and rude comments I made here.

I might only add that money has two roles now: one, as an exchange for goods, and two, as a trade element. Since you can trade Yen, Dollar, Euros, as if they were goods, things have become worse.

And a note about the money interests: it's true, all religions forbid it in the harshest terms. There's not one that allows interests.
I am my savior
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04-13-2007, 07:39 PM,
#19
China Shifts To Euros For Iran Oil
Quote:The more I deal with it, the more I realize that I have so much to learn about economy. I wouldn't deal with it if it was not one of the major problems we have today. So I use that little brain that I have left for economical questions and do what I can. I want to apologize for my simple-minded and rude comments I made here.

I might only add that money has two roles now: one, as an exchange for goods, and two, as a trade element. Since you can trade Yen, Dollar, Euros, as if they were goods, things have become worse.

rude Phil??? i don't think so - certainly no apologies required. And i really respect your position and open mindedness. i too come to this discussion with little knowledge, just a belief in what exchange/economics should be - and the NEF statement comes pretty close to summing it up.

'the little money book' was my first encounter with alternative economic theory and it really got me thinking. since then i've continually searched for alternative perspectives and a greater depth in understanding of how our current system evolved and operates - 'money masters' is the best intro i've found, although it did make my head feel like it wants to explode. my girlfriend is an economist/accountant, she sat open mouthed through it, said it lifted a veil from her eyes (or words to that effect).

another thing one comes to realise is that no-one really knows how the system works - people have ideas, preferences, justifications, but much as economists are keen on graphs and and projections all justified through pseudo mathematics, they have no foundation except that of experience - mistakes and patterns from the past. it's not mathematics in any real sense of the word.

it is a fatalistic approach i know, but to my mind the current system is fucked, with no hope of redemption or modification. if it is fixable, in an equitable manner, then it is beyond me, so i'll leave such considerations to people who's minds work in a conventional manner and have a deeper understanding of our current situation. i'm not interested in a fudge, something that changes it a little bit (regardless of ethical value) for continued stability - i want to consider most ideal system for balance and equanimity, across the earth, for future generations. the transition is beyond me.

and yeah, two roles for money - one of which is completely pointless.
Vitam Impendere Vero
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04-14-2007, 02:32 AM,
#20
China Shifts To Euros For Iran Oil
Quote:and yeah, two roles for money - one of which is completely pointless.
exactly. Money, a good and necessary invention, has become a plague.

I did not mean rude, I wanted to say disrespectful. I was disrespectful towards WeThePeople and also towards you. I think I've found the answers to many questions of life, except money. Therefore, I am a retard, and I got angry being called a retard.:D(truth hurts):LOL:

Quote:it is a fatalistic approach i know, but to my mind the current system is fucked, with no hope of redemption or modification. if it is fixable, in an equitable manner, then it is beyond me, so i'll leave such considerations to people who's minds work in a conventional manner and have a deeper understanding of our current situation. i'm not interested in a fudge, something that changes it a little bit (regardless of ethical value) for continued stability - i want to consider most ideal system for balance and equanimity, across the earth, for future generations. the transition is beyond me.
your words in god's ear. But fact is, we have no choice. Optimism is our only choice. In a small scale, many communities have found a solution. I just read about the READ microcredit projects in India where poor people get support, although there are (small) interest rates. This and other tiny projects give at least a little hope, even when the negative effects of globalization are not solved (just want to add that there are also positive effects of globalization). And - what's your girlfriend's point of view, as an economist and accountant? (I don't even know what an accountant is, talking about being retard).

Calling myself a retard in commerce can make me angry, but it is something I'm also proud of. As a child, I had a dream, and in that dream I had a very nice toy car, and when I felt that I will wake up, I put that toy deep into my pocket, so that I will keep it after awaking. The car was no more there, and since then I knew that we can't take our money or precious things into our after-life. I was cured from greed, and I still think that it is greed that is the real problem. I know, I've stepped now into the philosophical area, but in this area I feel more at home. It is the feeling of deficiency that makes people greedy. If that feeling of deficiency could be cured, greed would vanish, and probably we could keep our capitalism, the national banks would not print money without value, people would not be killed in resource wars, racism would be a memory of the past. This hell would be a paradise, if we dared to accept the abundance around us.
In theory, everything is easy, like nature, and in physical reality, everything is hard and impossible. I think this is called the fate of human condition (French: condition humaine).

:Dmaybe it's the moment to get back to topic. I welcome the shift to Euro of China and Iran, it will force the US think tanks to find new solutions and it will shake the paradigm of US supremacy. I just have doubts about the EU and its Euro, it has some resemblance to the US and the $. I would like to hear what the real experts have to say.

Philosophers are welcome as well.
I am my savior
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04-14-2007, 07:02 PM,
#21
China Shifts To Euros For Iran Oil
Quote:The longer I think about it, the more I get the impression that I'm waiting for a global paradigm shift where everyone is honest and monetary systems have no importance anymore.

I think you're right.

I used to work for The Gap, you blue jeans and stuff, and they always gave us this spiel about how they couldn't give us a pay raise, blah, blah, blah. And that was such bullshit.

They could have doubled the hourly wage and salary of every single employee and they wouldn't have lost a dime, and not one single share-holder would have been hurt financially. In fact, there was only one person on the planet who would have "suffered" and that was the CEO, who was Mickey Drexler at the time.

His "suffering" would have been that his monthly salary would be reduced to a mere $800,000 a month.

Now, I'm sorry, but if you can't live in the US on $800,000 a month, I don't know what to tell you. If someone gave me a sob story about how hard their life is because they're only making $800,000 a month, my first inclination would be to reach out and crush their larynx, but I think that's unlawful, or illegal or something.

You know, one reason the US Dollar is losing value is because it has become concentrated in the hands of just a few people.

I read a statistic from reliable source, I believe it was a government web-site, that claims that 80% of all wealth in the US is held by people age 57 and older. So basically, 270 Million people are competing for the other 20%, which kind of explains why no one has any money.
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