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The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
05-15-2007, 03:50 PM,
#61
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Quote:Starjade says: The first mention in history of the Angel Gabriel came from the character Luke in the Christians New Testament.

Starjade says; Ah now I see what you are yackling about. It is a misconception by you. You did not listen to what I had said and was presumptuous in your thinking AUX.

The name Gabriel is only mentioned twice in the Old Testament and both times by Daniel beginning as he described a man calling another man by the name of Gabriel. But during those verses Daniel does not mention any Angel called Gabriel he described a man not any Angel.

The first reference naming Gabriel exists in the following Chapters. Daniel Chapter 8 Verse 15: And it came to pass when I even I Daniel had seen the vision and sought for the meaning. Then behold there stood before me as the appearance of a man. Verse 16: And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called and said Gabriel make this man understand the vision. Verse 17: So he came near where I stood and when he came I was afraid and fell upon my face. He said unto me, understand O son of man for at the time of the end shall be the vision. Verse 18: Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: But he touched me and set me upright.

So Daniel was asleep in a Dream and he saw this vision and he did not see so well with his face buried in the ground and at no time throughout his statement did Daniel ever call Gabriel an Angel, but in fact he described Gabriel as being a man and further that he was a man that he had dreamed. The second reference to Gabriel was in Daniel Chapter 9 Verse 21: Yea whiles I was speaking in prayer even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.? Do you see at no time does Daniel refer to Gabriel as being an Angel but he does describe him as being like a man. This is where Gabriel originated from, in the dreams of Daniel the dreamer of dreams. The name Gabriel only appears twice in the Old Testament.

Starjade says; So then clever clogs show exactly where an Angel Gabriel is mentioned in those passages of Daniel. Wassatt? No place… Oh but of course it does not say Angel Gabriel anywhere but it does describe Gabriel as being a man.

Then skip forwards to the Christians fabricated New Testament and read Luke. Suddenly there is an Angel Gabriel. The Angel called Gabriel is only mentioned twice in the Christians fabricated new Testament. Both Times by Luke. A Character that some Roman writer was fabricating.

Now as anyone who does know me will expect here I shall invoke the law of Deuteronomy Chapter 19 verses 15 which is a law that determines the truth regarding any crime of iniquity or sin. This religious law states in Deuteronomy Chapter 19 verse 15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: At the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

What that law states is that you need two or three actual witnesses to establish a matter to be true or not. However, in case religious scholars are asleep let me point out that the fabricated character Luke was not present at the Temple where he says the Angel Gabriel appeared nor was he present at the birth of Jesus or when this Angel Gabriel he speaks about is said to have made visitations to Joseph or Mary or any place.
What that means is that this claim about this Angel Gabriel is hearsay testimony and according to Deuteronomy law it is not true. None of the claims made by Luke can be established by Deuteronomy law because there are no actual witnesses or witness Testimonies. Hence at no Time ever was there any Angel called Gabriel anywhere in the Old Testament and the Angel Gabriel was first mentioned in the New Testament by a character writ into that story as telling another story that he was not a witness too.

So Starjade is correct and you were presumptuous to think you could speak in my name.
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05-15-2007, 03:55 PM,
#62
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Quote:Correction, according to biblical time line, Daniel was in Babylon around the early 600s BC. Some dispute the time for their own reasons (i.e., the startling historical accuracy of the rise and fall of kingdoms prophetically foretold), but taken at face value it would be during this time, which I personally believe, and not 200 BC.

As you were..

Starjade say; You still did not make any point.:unsure: And Daniel was in a deep sleep at the Time he overheard another man call another man by the name of Gabriel. There was no mention of any Angel called Gabriel only of a man called Gabriel. :rolleyes:
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05-15-2007, 04:31 PM,
#63
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; Starjade, your threads are 90% your own follow up posts. You should start a multimedia blog where everyone speaks in the 3rd person and you can all dance around in between sentences, boast your egos, a few sacrifices here and there, beat your chests, talk on cool voice morphing hardware & sound really really pompous.

Starjade say; In the many long long staggeringly long debates I have had it is the wise to speak and place my name before I do against the name to whom I am replying and that way nobody mistakes what I say against what another says. It is the better way of writing. It is called keeping things clear. Some of my replies to religious scholars are over 30 feet long. And I was being brief.

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; Do all that and claim to be a servant of God. Doesn't that sound super!?! Calling out Muslims to the beat of your war drums, does that really work?

Starjade says; Muslims challenged me to challenge Islam with my Revelations. They challenged me and I accepted that challenge and I won and Islam bit the Dust and many did shirk away. So my anger is bound to blaze at them. Now Islam has been defeated and the Koran is established as not being a book that came from God and Mad Muhammad is established even by the words of the Koran to be a liar and a fraud and so Muslims under Islamic law must now accept defeat officially and convert and when they do I shall be silent. What business is it of your anyways. ?

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; Maybe your tone and ego does turn you on in whatever dimension you are from; but here on planet earth where we spiritual creatures known as the human race reside: we prefer some dignity and mutual respect.

Starjade says: Scuse me but my conversations were to the Muslims who love me to bits and love the way I call them out and grab them by the short and curlies. They love such religious debates and I have plenty on file that proves that to be a fact and so you do not know what you are talking about. Of course some will be miffed at my power to destroy the credibility of Islam and the Koran and the claims of Muhammad but as the matter was done under Islamic law then they respect me for that and accept that reality even when they bite the Dust.

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; If your motivation is to call devout Muslims out for a real discussion, it sounds to me like you are aiming for those evil terrorist Islamics that never really existed; that is before America took a turn for the worst and gave them a reason to rise against us.
Starjade says; I have challenged the whole of Islam not just a few and the more hard core the better I like it as they give me the better debates and discussions because they out of the whole of Islam are the most religious and when they bite the Dust for all to see then my statements are all the more powerful.

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; Are you claiming to be Gods equal or Gods messenger? I said before in your welcome post after trying to hear you out--that I wouldn't post to any of your threads. But you are proving to be possessed by, or learning from such an interesting and compelling demon. I'll seriously keep you in my good thoughts and hope that you find peace and release from your burden.

Starjade doth say; I am the Living Gods Crown and the Living Gods long awaited Deuteronomy Chapter 18 verses 15/18 Doomsday Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up in the Midst of the Jews. That is who I am… And I above all people on this Planet truly give my life body and Soul to the Living God. I am also a son of the Living God but hey you would only moan if I was to brag.

Yes you did say you would not write and yet as you see you felt compelled too. You see my attitude is perfect and has that effect upon the congregations.

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; I'm not even talking about your anti-Muslim beliefs, because I know nothing of the Muslim faith. I am merely speaking to your presentation and gross ego, which can only be accumulated through some warped self fulfilling perception of your self.

Starjade say; I have no ego. By your own admission by attitude entices people to speak with me who otherwise would dare not. And do not forget that Muslims challenged me to challenge Islam and that challenge is done only under Islamic law. That is my being respectful when they deserve it not. Worshipping the moon is a blasphemy and something detestable in the eyes of the living God and show be certain I have shown astonishing tolerance. They do have a right to reply and panic not if they dare to do for I just love flame wars and you can be sure they do get exited.

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; How many hours a day do you stand in front of the mirror? Who is telling you that you are so special? Do you think the God of Abraham would pat you on the back and send you on your way.

Starjade say; Well I am such a handsome fellow so I do catch a glimpse of Gods wonderful creation from time to time but I do not indulge. And hey I am that long awaited Deuteronomy Chapter 18 verses 15/18 Prophet that the Living God promised he would raise up in the midst of the Jews so that does make me kinda of special. The Living God loves me to bits. God knows what I am like that is another reason why I was Chosen. Are you moaning now at the choice of the Living God as if you were in a better position to Judge. Tsk Tsk Tsk….

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; All the servents of God I know of are or were respectful, meager, and righteous to all forms of life. Do you write out these scripts, record them into your computer and listen to them over and over again. Are you a self fulfilling prophecy?

Starjade says; I would have preferred that you say who you think were servants of God for if Jesus and mad Muhammad are amongst them then I would say you are misguided in your beliefs for those characters have sinned before the Living God. I am a genuine person like me or not and I will not portray a false character of myself to mimic those false pretenders to my throne that you all idolise. I am a real person and if you say I should love my fellow man than expect me to call you a puff.

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; Come down off your dark horse and have a discussion with us poor 3rd dimensional humans and try to explain what place you are coming from because it is becoming apparent that the majority of us here feel that you are possessed by some demonic presence and should seek help for your own well being.

Starjade says; When you speak of others you really mean your own view eh.? Look at who it is that I have said that I am and be certain I am serious when I say that. Then look outwards to those followers of Jesus and Mad Muhammad who are the false pretenders to my Throne. Isn’t it a tad foolish of you to assume I would not make comments on them and crucify their false and blasphemous religions.

Abraham had many sons. The Ishmaelite’s are descendants of Abraham and they are today’s Arabs who fabricated the Koran and have turned to Islam a moon worshipping religion. It is nieve of you to assume that the Living Gods real Deuteronomy Prophet would not have something most serious to say to them about that. And I have already said what I am about.

Quote:PursuitOfLiberty you say; I am not writing this because I am offended, or to be cruel; but, because I am concerned and compelled to speak in your best interest.

Starjade says; I did say I have no ego to bruise so I will not be offended by anything you say and be certain I can speak for myself and it is better that way considering who it is that I am representing. That is the Living God by the way just in case you were wondering.

The Living Gods Deuteronomy Prophet against the religious congregations and you can be sure that it is they who will be the ones who are biting the Dust.
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05-15-2007, 06:39 PM,
#64
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Quote:
Quote: AUX you said; Btw, Daniel was held captive in Babylon in 2nd century BC and was head of the magi there and had massive power from ol' King Nebbie. It's no great wonder that the angel was co-opted up by various cults there as all pagan cults are notorious for doing.

Starjade say; Scuse me before you rant away. I do not care about Daniel or of where he is or was. At no Time did Daniel ever mention any Angel called Gabriel in those passages. He only described a man and a man he saw whiles he was in a deep sleep. These passages of Daniel are the first mention of Gabriel and Daniel described a man not any Angel.


When and where Daniel was (Babylon) is significant because it helps clear up the other misconception that Gabriel was taken from the Chaldeans and Magi (famous for astrology) by the Jews and not the other way around, as the words in the book of Daniel are orders of magnitudes more highly verified by the sheer weight of fulfilled prophecy contained therein, which is the ultimate test of a prophet, even in accordance to Deuteronomy, even in dream state.

As for Gabriel being just a man, this is also a misconception. That's like saying Jesus Son of God was just a man. You're playing word games when you say Luke was the first to refer to Gabriel as an angel, that doesn't mean Gabriel never made appearances or was referred to before. Angels are sons of God and Jesus Christ was Son of God as is noted in scripture. The Daniel passage refers to Gabriel as being in the "form of a man." If he was just a man, why would the word bother telling us it was the FORM of a man? He was a messenger from God, which means he was an angel- angel literally means 'messenger' or 'one sent,' and this is what was done. Gabriel may rightly be referred to as a man if that is the form he comes in, but the distinguishment is made by calling attention to his being a mere form of man, as Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but did not sin. (This gets too deep, you can see why I was reluctant to delve into this now).


Daniel 8:
15. And it came to pass, when I, [even] I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the <span style="color:#FFFF00">appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision.


We see Gabriel again commissioned for a similar task later in Luke Chapter 1.

Luke1:
18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am <span style="color:#FFFF00">sent to speak unto thee, and <span style="color:#FFFF00">to shew thee these glad tidings.

It's firmly established that Gabriel comes from heaven and reveals events of the future and help interpret them to man, which makes him an angel by definition. This happens again in his appearance to Mary.

I'm not here to convert you, I'm here to help the other Christians you're trying to misguide. Hopefully their faith in the truth is already strong enough to where they don't need me to step in.

Trust me, you won't accept what I (a mere non-prophet) just told you.

Peace in Christ Jesus.
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05-15-2007, 10:29 PM,
#65
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Not "form of a man' but "appearance of a man," you knew what i meant tho, I quoted it verbatim. sorry i had just woken.
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05-15-2007, 10:41 PM,
#66
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:It's no great wonder that the angel was co-opted up by various cults there as all pagan cults are notorious for doing.
LoL!!
You got that ass backwards there my friend. :wink:


Keep telling yourself that.

Where did Abraham come from? :laugh:
Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd : Vituð ér enn eða hvat?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Image: madwolfoy0.jpg][Image: sharksmall1kd6.jpg][Image: bearkodiakchugachfe7.jpg]
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05-16-2007, 12:05 AM,
#67
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Better yet, who saved the lives of and was put in charge over all the wisemen, magicians, and astrologers in Babylon circa 600BC and foretold many events (still coming to pass today) accurately and read and interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream and was visited by the individual in question?

Lets not strain at the gnats only to swallow camels.
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05-16-2007, 01:15 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-16-2007, 01:15 AM by deathstickboy.)
#68
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Quote:Better yet, who saved the lives of and was put in charge over all the wisemen, magicians, and astrologers in Babylon circa 600BC and foretold many events (still coming to pass today) accurately and read and interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream and was visited by the individual in question?

Lets not strain at the gnats only to swallow camels.

What makes you think you've got Daniel and everything surrounding him all figured out?

Lets not get up our own ass with pre-suppositions....
Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd : Vituð ér enn eða hvat?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Image: madwolfoy0.jpg][Image: sharksmall1kd6.jpg][Image: bearkodiakchugachfe7.jpg]
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05-16-2007, 02:17 AM,
#69
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Just scanned over it a bit but this is weird. starjade refers to itself as if there is another person? I just seem the words prophet and Living God in the same sentance from a person who proclaims itself above all, smarter than all and not very tollerant. I am a Christian and while I'm not sometimes a very good one keep talking starjade, that makes me look better. No wonder the world hates us. What is the big deal with Muslins vs Christians, we both worship the same God. There are fallacies to anthing man puts his hand upon, religion especially. I do not know who you serve by it isn't the real God.
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05-16-2007, 03:05 AM,
#70
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Quote:What makes you think you've got Daniel and everything surrounding him all figured out?

Lets not get up our own ass with pre-suppositions....


What makes you think I think I have Daniel and everything surrounding him figured out? I'm sticking to a written account which has been verified as truthful and accurate in every way it can be tested and only grows more solid the more we learn and has increasingly silenced the critics through the ages. What do you have? Abraham came from Ur around 1800BC? Somehow implying the Old Testament borrowed from the Chaldeans which have nothing but superstitious religions? The Old Testament is openly and voraciously against pagandom in every major tenet, this is undebatable. You're trying to build a theory on Abraham's past? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT ABRAHAM'S PAST AND SURROUNDING DETAILS? Yet you will ignore massive circumstantial and archaeological evidence to the contrary in a book (Daniel) that has withstood the most rigorous testing and miraculous (no exaggeration) fulfillment? Yes that's called straining at a gnat to swallow a camel, to put it nicely.
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05-16-2007, 03:23 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-16-2007, 03:25 AM by aux.)
#71
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Free Ebook with illustrations for anyone interested.

Introduction to The Book of Daniel
http://www.truthnet.org/Daniel/Introduction/

You can read many of the criticisms of the book and how they are answered with history, archeology, linguistic experts, etc on the first page near the bottom.

Well this thread certainly got far off topic didn't it? A challenge to Muslims by a Jew (I think?) and you end up with a Christian defending the book of Daniel. Classic.
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05-18-2007, 04:28 PM,
#72
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Quote:Free Ebook with illustrations for anyone interested.

Introduction to The Book of Daniel
http://www.truthnet.org/Daniel/Introduction/

You can read many of the criticisms of the book and how they are answered with history, archeology, linguistic experts, etc on the first page near the bottom.

Well this thread certainly got far off topic didn't it? A challenge to Muslims by a Jew (I think?) and you end up with a Christian defending the book of Daniel. Classic.


Starjade says: Sorry i have not been able to reply. I have been over taxed against Time. I have saved what has been said to disc to reply to though i ask you have patience.

By the way. I am not a Jew or Muslims or Christian. I am not bound within the confines of any particular liturgical form of worship.

It does not say anywhere in the Old Testament that the long awaited Deuteronomy Prophet would be a Jew. Any who think otherwise will soon bite the dust with that silly belief.
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05-19-2007, 12:49 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-19-2007, 12:59 AM by aux.)
#73
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Hi Mr./Mrs. Starjade. Is this the prophecy of the Prophet in Deuteronomy to which you're referring:

<span style="color:#C0C0C0">Deut. 18:
15. The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet <span style="color:#FFFF33">from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me (Moses); unto him ye shall hearken;
[...]
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among <span style="color:#FFFF33">their brethren, like unto thee (referring to Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

If so, I guess I would like to know your interpretation of the word 'brethren.' I always thought it meant of the Jews who left Egypt with Moses. I believe it could be a spiritual Jew or a Jew in the sense of being from the lineage of Jacob/Israel, to which Jesus would fulfill in both senses.

Italics are my words btw.

Peace in Christ Jesus.
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05-19-2007, 01:15 AM,
#74
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
That's the beautiful thing about the TRuTH...Everyone and everything is disposable - prophets included..Ultimately though when Gods plans are thwarted his will disregarded even with puerile requests we always can believe in the certainty of the self-correcting mechanism..We just will have to start again, cat's eyes nine lives, yada yada. Where are all the cheer leaders? The world need cheer leaders.. Save the cheer leader :biggrin:

Whatever
Red letters are a composite Law. &...God is, as it were, the sewer into which all contradictions flow.& ~Hegel
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05-19-2007, 02:57 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-19-2007, 02:59 AM by aux.)
#75
The Sura 4:82 Challenge To All Muslims.
Well yeah, the flesh and materialism is disposable, that's why it's important to look past all that and not get caught up in the deceptions of the flesh but rather store your treasures in the abode of the spirit realm, the bible calls that place heaven. Welcome to reality.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..

Some people look at the universe and nature's order and think it was all a big accident, all from nothingness, the void, or at least fool themselves into thinking that out of fear perhaps. Some don't like the idea of not being the ultimate master of their destiny, because they are vain and refuse to humble themselves to a larger power that they can't completely comprehend (we can't fully comprehend how gravity works, but we all accept it anyways). It's actually extremely empowering when you humble yourself to the author of knowledge and power. Cast off doubt for once and seek him in sincerity and he won't let you down. You can pray to him RIGHT NOW. What are you afraid of?
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