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Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
07-31-2007, 01:59 PM, (This post was last modified: 08-01-2007, 03:05 AM by standvast.)
#1
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
As Madz requested ; a thread for debate / conversation / sharing individual notions .

- Does Y'shua equate to "God the father" , or was he a mere man who
attained [through whatever method] the conceptual notion that God is in all ?

- Do Christians by having crosses and other examples of graven imagery break there own moral code?

- why do you care what I believe? [ty Ctrl]
iow in the case of sharing a basic understanding, and having similar [anti NWO-control] goals,
why would one care for how the other believes or conceptualizes "God" and by what means?

peace'
If Thine I that I spy with my own little I Doeth Offend thee ; Pluck It out.

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08-01-2007, 01:18 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-01-2007, 01:19 AM by hilly7.)
#2
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
Quote:As Madz requested ; a thread for debate / conversation / sharing individual notions .

- Does Y'shua equate to "God the father" , or was he a mere man who
attained [through whatever method] the conceptual notion that God is in all ?

- Do Christians by having crosses and other examples of graven imagery break there own moral code?

- why do you care what I believe? [ty Ctrl]
iow in the case of sharing a basic understanding, and have similar [anti NWO-control] goals,
why would one care for how the other believes of conceptualizes "God" and by what means?

peace'

I do not speak for anyone other than myself and it's just my belief but these really seem to be decent questions. I'm not sure why a new thread was started but perhaps it's needed for this.

1 - I accept Jesus, Y'shua or whatever name you call Him to be the son of God but not God. I have never seen Him but then again I haven't seen the friction that is applied when I hit my brakes either, nor have I seen wind. For arguments sake say he was just a perfect man, if we lived by His teachings we'd all be better off. God can be in us but He is not us, that much I know for sure.
2 - That is an excellent question. The cross has been for years used in many religions. Yes, I believe that any image is wrong, yet I have some, mostly of animals in the form of statues, wolves. The cross has been used for knowledge, universe, torture, faith and other forms.
3 - I actually don't care what someone else believes. In the end we account for only ourselves and what we have done individually to ourselves and others.
4 - I thought this a 2 parter so I think that when we can establish lines of division we can not stand as a people. At one time I believed that my taught faith was it, my way was the only correct way, my terms were the only correct terms, correct names. I no longer believe that. This teaches us to judge our fellow person based upon what we have been taught and anytime we have to compare ourselves to another we've already fallen short. I do believe in God but God is what He is and He has many names so just because I feel comfortable calling Him God, my intitlement, why should not someone be free to do the same? I think TPTB have used religion, changed it some but to their advantage. Whenever one man feels superior to another for any reason they are divided as people. I read from a website a quote I liked. "Man will prey on man until man prays for man."
Extra added - I also think there were false gods and many fell to these. Imagine taking a Bic Lighter back even 200 years ago, maybe less you'd be the god of fire.
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09-02-2007, 03:12 PM,
#3
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
Quote:- Does Y'shua equate to "God the father" , or was he a mere man who
attained [through whatever method] the conceptual notion that God is in all ?
This is pointless.
Bible is so contradictory that ANYTHING can be "proven" from it. Jesus was god, he wasn't. Salvation is grace, salvation is works. Jesus came to make peace, Jesus came to make war. Continue here (SAB)

I don't know how can be anyone so stupid to believe Noah actually found all those estimated 10 million species (male/female = 20 mio) an actually knew the sex of bugs and stuff like that. Of course, he went to Australia to pick up kangoroos, to Galapagos to pick up turtles and so on. This idea is fucking insane and those literalists believing it are out of their mind. And all those 10 million species in a fucking wooden boat constructed by some bronze-men fuck? LOL :dazed:

Bible is messed up. So are all apocrypha (gnostic), even more. Christianity is clearly the most confused religion out there.

Quote:Do Christians by having crosses and other examples of graven imagery break there own moral code?
Christians wearing crosses only show how obsessed with blood(ritual sacrifice) they are. They only show their mentality.

Quote:- why do you care what I believe? [ty Ctrl]
iow in the case of sharing a basic understanding, and have similar [anti NWO-control] goals,
why would one care for how the other believes of conceptualizes "God" and by what means?

Because literalist christians hurt us as a species. They are dangerous in all meanings of the word. They are dangerous to science, they are dangerous to great ideas and are a great obstacle in our development.
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. &Look at the fish
swimming about,& said Chuang Tzu, &They are really enjoying themselves.&

&You are not a fish,& replied the friend, &So you can't truly know that they
are enjoying themselves.&

&You are not me,& said Chuang Tzu. &So how do you know that I do not
know that the fish are enjoying themselves?&
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09-03-2007, 03:50 AM,
#4
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
marko, again with the let's place everybody in one neat little basket so we don't have to think. I'm not up on all nor do I have all the answers but I am one up on you, I have many friends from many religions and some with none and I do not classify them in groups with like or similar beliefs nor direspect them for the difference. You just want to argue. There is verry little chance that you will change your mind nor someone else will change theirs, why waste time and energy? Just the same here is some food for thought. Noah and the animals, ever heard of DNA? As for Bronze age look back at Out There TV for the Deevolution concept, it's not any religion based but makes sense looking at many Sumerian works and other religions including Christianity.
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09-03-2007, 04:14 AM,
#5
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
I have nothing against individual, please understand that. I respect every individual, his belief and opinion. But it's the ideas I don't like, and I'm particulary angry with christianity.

Quote:. There is verry little chance that you will change your mind nor someone else will change theirs, why waste time and energy?
That is simply not true. I was a christian, but reading and learning more and more _painfully_ destroyed my beliefs. Getting people informed is painful, but compassionate thing to do. If I look back now, I wouldn't want to live in that delusion anymore.
I strongly believe that you cannot be christian if you understand evolution (but really understand, not watching some BBC documentary and saying i know everything) and if you understand history of christianity as well as biblical scholarship.

Quote:Just the same here is some food for thought. Noah and the animals, ever heard of DNA?
What has DNA to do with Noah?
Bible says he actually had all the animals on that boat, both male and female. And he had them alive, not in some DNA sample.
Quote:And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life.
Remember also he had alive dove on board.

Well, if you can't believe that, what can you then believe? Whole bible is inspired, so if 1 sentence is wrong, everything is wrong.

You will probably say I dont really believe every word of bible, but I do know something's there and I believe in Jesus. Ok. How can you trust one one sentence, if other before it is wrong? You just pick out what you like? Is that it? Doesn't seem like a rational way to me.

This argument is the best: I know bible is inspired, because it says it is :biggrin:
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. &Look at the fish
swimming about,& said Chuang Tzu, &They are really enjoying themselves.&

&You are not a fish,& replied the friend, &So you can't truly know that they
are enjoying themselves.&

&You are not me,& said Chuang Tzu. &So how do you know that I do not
know that the fish are enjoying themselves?&
Reply
09-03-2007, 04:39 AM,
#6
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
Great article on Flood&Ark:Problems with a Global Flood
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. &Look at the fish
swimming about,& said Chuang Tzu, &They are really enjoying themselves.&

&You are not a fish,& replied the friend, &So you can't truly know that they
are enjoying themselves.&

&You are not me,& said Chuang Tzu. &So how do you know that I do not
know that the fish are enjoying themselves?&
Reply
09-03-2007, 05:44 AM,
#7
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
I did forget, I don't wear any jewelry let alone a cross. The cross was a form for punishment, unless you look back even farther.
Reply
09-03-2007, 05:51 AM,
#8
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
Quote:Great article on Flood&Ark:Problems with a Global Flood

Took a look, decent link andf some good points, also some narrow points. DNA could easily been the animals on the ark, ok it's not conventional Christianity but more plausable. Also wood, depending upon the type could be superior to metal, unless in war. Almost all religions tell of a flood. Again, this is pointless. There are more current events occurring that effect us than what someone else believes.
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09-03-2007, 02:14 PM,
#9
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
Quote:Do Christians by having crosses and other examples of graven imagery break there own moral code?

By not understanding their own religion the majority of Christians break a moral code - that to themselves and the people around them. We are all guilty of this to some extent, at least in some point in our life. It cannot be otherwise unless we question our parents, teachers, priests, etc. from the time we can speak. Once we get to a stage where we can question all authorities, including holy books, we must, because it makes common sense that any authority that goes unquestioned is ripe for corruption and will undoubtedly be used to manipulate its/his/her followers.

My personal opinion is that the bible is mostly allegory, and has multiple meanings depending on your point of view.

As for the cross, Bill Hicks had a great bit where he ruminated on JC returning and seeing all these Christians wearing crosses. Paraphrasing 'it'd be like meeting Jackie Kennedy in support while wearing a rifle pendant. "We're all with you Jackie, see?" (pointing to gun around neck)'.

I had a discussion yesterday with my bass player, who teaches at a Catholic school, and who's family are all practicing Catholics. He's not rooted in religion at all, and I asked him if he would share the movie 'Zeitgeist' with any/all of his family. He said the younger ones, ya, but not the older ones, as for their whole life their spiritual side consisted of the belief of JC as the son of God. I posed the retort to him:

"What if the real reason we are here is to find the truth, and offer it to others to consider? Wouldn't that make more sense than to believe in a person/entity where there is almost no evidence that he even existed, let alone the evidence that shows he is an allegorical representative of an astronomical chain of events? Are we not doing those we care about a disservice by allowing them to remain in their comfort zone, perhaps only to find out they are wrong upon dying? Wouldn't it be better to risk upsetting them than to let them go into the great ether having been defrauded their whole life?"

I think he largely agreed with me, but I doubt he has any plans to upset his family. FWIW he understands the hypocrisy of teaching at Catholic school with his beliefs, but like us all he has to make exceptions in order to live in the system of money.
The Environment is out to KILL YOU!

Visit STRAWMAN MUSIC to find out how you can stop It's genocidal plans.
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09-03-2007, 07:58 PM,
#10
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
I was happily agreeing with everything strawman wrote until he said:

"Are we not doing those we care about a disservice by allowing them to remain in their comfort zone, perhaps only to find out they are wrong upon dying?"

In answer I would say yes, we are not doing our loved ones a disservice by allowing them some comfort. How do you know that everything stopping isn't what happens just before you get into the after life? Of course you can't know that, noone can, silly question sorry. So you cannot find out that you are wrong about 'the afterlife' and if it doesn't happen you won't care or exist for that matter.

I think I should share what I have learnt with them if they are willing and that is all.

A friend of mine who's an atheist told me he got a lot of reassurance from faith 'by proxy', as he put it. His friend who was a christian was dying but was very composed and relaxed about it all because of his faith-perspective. My friend the atheist is set at ease by his friend the christians beliefs.

Some of them do some cool stuff for themselves with religion, stuff I'm not sure I can get from my own standpoint without using hypnosis.

Peace strawman :dazed:
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09-07-2007, 10:24 PM,
#11
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
Quote:As Madz requested ; a thread for debate / conversation / sharing individual notions .

- Does Y'shua equate to "God the father" , or was he a mere man who
attained [through whatever method] the conceptual notion that God is in all ?

the name pronounced yahashuah in that area of the world at that time was like having an english prophet named "john smith". Personally i find that a lot can be read into that alone. Like the whole "God in us" phenomena. But nomatter what is the real explanation with this story, to me it merely shows that people all over the world had experiences on a personal level, so intense, that they had to share them. What happened after that is stories not told by those who had the experience, stories that has wandered through millenia in the hands of mad powermongers. You do the math, this has not proven to be a very good road for truth telling. Have the current powermongers told us the truth about 911? about anything really ..i think they are unable. But if its written down in a book who has been translated and promoted by the likes of the bin bush gang thousands of years ago, im to take it for gospel truth. Dont bet on it.

Quote:- Do Christians by having crosses and other examples of graven imagery break there own moral code?

all symbols turn into idols eventually. All religions leave their own teachings by having them, except hinduism and masonry that is entirely based on it. I always found the christian symbol rather depressing. An instrument of roman imperialism and an instrument of torture??! Why not have the living deity Jesus if you must have a symbol to remember God by? But perhaps symbosl really comes down to nothing but pride, thats my take on it. By using symbols you can distinguish yourself from other grups, and "fellows" can know eachother, like freemasons just more openly, but its the same thing. So much for the next man is my brother huh? is elitism, in however small a way really a good thing? i doubt it and symbols seems to be key to this.

Quote:- why do you care what I believe? [ty Ctrl]
iow in the case of sharing a basic understanding, and having similar [anti NWO-control] goals,
why would one care for how the other believes or conceptualizes "God" and by what means?

peace'

I care because if given a chance, your religion will take over my life if i want it to or not. Let's dream up a situation, NWO failed, and it failed bad. the majority of people left in the area you and i survived in primarily consists of fire and brimstone christians. Do you think i would be left to do as i find honorable or would i soon have to see poor treatment of women, homosexuals and basically anyone with another oppinion or view of life. Surviving in a christian area would be little different from surviving in a wahabi muslim populated area.

RIght now there is a difference, but with all the bells and whistles of civilisation taken away from the richer christian population, i would be looking at the same thing in both areas with only minor differences in behaviour like different dresscode.

I will not accept this, I want dont want to free myself from one insane fantasy system to replace it with another. If you however is the kind of believer that keeps it to yourself and your own if you think im going to hell, doing your best to preach peace between people of ALL creeds, then i really like you. Some of the best and kindest people i know are from various religious creeds, and when i study their scripture it always strike me that it is as if they intentionally skip large parts. And thats good, because those parts are to say it as politely as possible totally fucking nuts, and this goes for alls scripture i have had my sweaty hands on. They focus on the beuty, the petry and analogues found in there, and forget about the smiting and direct command to kill non believers (everyone else than you) by devine mandate.

Thus religion may be a personal thing, but before you know of it, if youre not carefull it becomes very much a public issue.
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09-08-2007, 12:53 AM,
#12
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
are churches and mosques idols? is the bible? - perhaps, stretching the concept of idol to its limit, even the word of another can be seen as an idol.
Vitam Impendere Vero
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09-08-2007, 06:11 PM,
#13
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
Quote:are churches and mosques idols? is the bible? - perhaps, stretching the concept of idol to its limit, even the word of another can be seen as an idol.

The churches and mosques are most definately idols in their own right. Jesus as a prophet said that the real temple is not a physical one. Just like the real God isnt a physical one in any sense we can fathom, thus depictions even of religious intend becomes idolatry. Catholics speaks of the "mother church", as if the church itself was an entity of power. well it is, but not by divine mandate, and that is what the churches and mosques claim to have, thus they are idols by their own definitions.

Books easily turn into idols, and a venerated with the respect that should be reserved for the creator itself. I think the two most idolised books in the world are the bible and the quran, but altso the work of marx (or those behind him rather) and other figures of history has in the minds of their followers taken on nearly magical powers.

I obviously can only speak for myself mind you. This is MY take on it. :)

as for gnostisism just look it up. . First Gnosis itself implies a direct knowledge gained from the pracsis of gnosis that you would not otherwise have gotten. It is knowledge not derrived from experience in reality, but rather outside it and gained through e.g meditation.

Its a very puritan but pretty depressed and negative view on reality as we percieve it when you look at some of the sects we know of from the times of the early church. Negative because they belive the world to be evil and created by a demogogue and final liberation from it is their heaven, nirvana or whatever. They do belive in God the creator, but God is way above us above our lifes etc, so a demon, properbly whom christians called the devil, created this world to be the god of it. Other sects did not belive in a demogogue as such, and reminds more of modern christian monks in pracsis.

Therefor to talk about "gnostics" or "gnosticism" is like talking about "christians". who are we talking about?. both labels contain such a varaity of beliefs that from one end of the spectre to the other there are so radical differences in belief that you would think they were different religions entirely. Take modern protestants and put them up against, the last church of the latter day saint, the fire and brimstone texans and if you werent told both of them belive in the same triune diety and message, you wouldnt never have guessed. This is the case with all religions of the world that i know of.

Thelema gnostics are more like a modern interpretation of druidism, mixed with whatever fit "the beasts"! fancy. I met and spend quite some time with a high priestess of the OTO. First of all they werent very secretive at all, I was even invited to witness a ritual. I did however decline as i would find it hard not to laugh, and i dont want to be disrespectfull to someone who treated me as well as she did. What i learned was something similar in nature to masonry, but a new interpretation of the same things, a lot of the same symbols etc. But at the core of it, it was nothing but "pagan" nature and godess worship. I saw nothing sinister, and she didnt come of as any more sinister than any hippie i ever met basically. She told me that they belived that "the beast" had lost his mind eventually, but took great lesson from some of his earlyer writings. What im getting at is, just because they use the word gnostic, doesnt mean that they are. Just like McDonalds calls themsefl a restaurant but doesnt serve food.
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09-08-2007, 07:39 PM,
#14
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
HOW, reckon we're pretty close in our thinking - that's about how i perceive things
Vitam Impendere Vero
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09-09-2007, 03:34 AM,
#15
Religion / Worshipping Symbols / like father like son ?
horseonwheels, thanks for the info on that. I admittantly have little knowledge on many groups I see mentioned on the board, this being one term, gnostic.
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