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challenging authority
08-28-2007, 07:17 PM,
#1
challenging authority
this is an off-shoot from a thread on Masons in 'secret societies'. thought this would be a better place to put it.

Quote:Jesus spoke freely, and passionately on all topics and did not hold back a thing.
of course he did! the first and last person within structured Christianity (not that Jesus would consider himself 'Christian') to do so! open your eyes! Jesus challenged structured authority, in all it's forms. although authority claims to be Christian (or Muslim or...) and therefore to love Jesus (or Mohammad) in reality they hate him, despise him, because the very essence of Jesus is challenge to corrupt authority. and authority, by it's very nature is corrupt (excepting God's). Jesus did not have a Bible to cling to - just ancient truths (carved in stone (and in the heart)) with which to expose the hypocrites who rule the earth, and have always ruled the earth.

Jesus would also not fall for the lie that is designed to confound and confuse the gullible - that of separating religion from politics.
Vitam Impendere Vero
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08-28-2007, 07:40 PM,
#2
challenging authority
Both Jesus and Muhammad where a couple of long haired hippies, although both with a temper. Jesus went apeshit in the temple and kicked moneygrubber arse, Mohammad did the same thing in Mecca.
All the messengers that i have read about has been rebels of their time.

in monthy pythons movie life of brian i find it funny that the first followers are in fact ...rebels... the peoples judean front and the front of the people of judea etc.. clever guys them pythons.
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08-28-2007, 07:51 PM,
#3
challenging authority
Quote:Both Jesus and Muhammad where a couple of long haired hippies, although both with a temper. Jesus went apeshit in the temple and kicked moneygrubber arse, Mohammad did the same thing in Mecca.
All the messengers that i have read about has been rebels of their time.

in monthy pythons movie life of brian i find it funny that the first followers are in fact ...rebels... the peoples judean front and the front of the people of judea etc.. clever guys them pythons.

"follow the shoe"... "follow the gourd"... "tell us how to be free"... God i love that film.

and "the peoples front of Judea - SPLITTERS!" no wonder the structured Church hated it.
Vitam Impendere Vero
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08-31-2007, 12:13 AM,
#4
challenging authority
Quote:
Quote:Jesus did not have a Bible to cling to

The World Made Flesh? That is why we have authentic Gospels, and also Gnostic counterfeits of the essential message. But, no matter this does belong in Religion but since Hilly7 had to continue it, had to clarrify as it obviuosly required it. Not any old carved in stone dug up by who knows who suffices for the Word. If it changes the inherent message it is no message at all. And the message is never that you are God and that is what all the Gnostic counterfeits propose.
[Image: laughkick.gif]
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08-31-2007, 01:01 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-31-2007, 01:07 AM by SerialExpLain.)
#5
challenging authority
Wow...a counterfeit ME to argue the Gnostic angle....SO pathetic....

Bring it...fake


So how are the folks over there at


<span style="color:#3366FF">Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis <span style="color:#FFCC66">or Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica


<span style="color:#FF9900">a.k.a. Thelema


<span style="color:#FF9900">Flames...lickin ya..
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08-31-2007, 05:31 AM,
#6
challenging authority
Since I'm mentioned here, what?
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08-31-2007, 07:43 PM,
#7
challenging authority
@Hilly7 - this is a carry over from Masons thread in SS - refer back to your post there...
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08-31-2007, 10:20 PM,
#8
challenging authority
Quote:
Quote:Jesus did not have a Bible to cling to
The World Made Flesh? That is why we have authentic Gospels, and also Gnostic counterfeits of the essential message.
speculation and opinion.

Quote:But, no matter this does belong in Religion but since Hilly7 had to continue it, had to clarrify as it obviuosly required it.
It required it but in the correct forum. Rather than clarify you restate opinion. Rather than clarifying it seems your posts are more to do with having the last word. It is a psychological problem, perhaps exacerbated by personal history but certainly to do with your refusal or inability to actually listen to, examine or accept rational arguments that drive a coach and horses through the walls you have built.

Quote:Not any old carved in stone dug up by who knows who suffices for the Word. If it changes the inherent message it is no message at all. And the message is never that you are God and that is what all the Gnostic counterfeits propose.
We have two arguments here: 1. if anything changes your rigidly defined dogma, that is supplied by a certain reading of a particular version of the Bible (KJV) it has no message – that is, it has no value, it is worthless, must be ignored, discarded, burnt: and 2. that Gnosticism says we ourselves are God.

It is perhaps worth pointing you towards Rod's excellent post on logical fallacies and other debating tactics http://conspiracycentral.info/index.php?showtopic=14765 (although given the way you hop topics and sidestep and ignore arguments, i expect you have already (even unwittingly) gained mastery (might be useful to some others though)). As there is no connection between these two points let me address them individually.

1. i've pointed this out to you on countless occasions but here goes, one more time: the KJV Bible is effectively a hand-me-down version of Jesus' teachings – remember, Jesus spoke Aramaic, most of the scriptures were written in Greek, before the Romans converted them to Latin – then it was converted to English, perhaps with occasional references to the Greek where the Latin was unclear or ambiguous (not of course that the whole thing isn't filled with ambiguity). From this aspect, given the vested interests of the authors and translators every current Bible should be seen as little better than Chinese whispers. However, given that humanity has barely scratched the surface of universal knowledge or truth, and given the extraordinary messages and allegories and metaphors (and predictions) contained therein, and that as theoretically (according to the Bible (and a host of other sources)) humanity is the product of God, then technically, logically, the Bible must be the word of God. But then technically, logically so must everything ever produced by humanity – obviously including the Gnostic gospels. And further, assuming God's omnipotence and omniscience, so must their release date.
Give me an explanation, acknowledge the validity of my argument or shut up. Do not point me towards some mindless video that addresses nothing at a structural level and just hides within your dogma.

2. Do Gnostics say they are God? No. this again is a misrepresentation based on your prejudices. Unlike the structured Roman church, Gnosticism is a broad church, incorporating a myriad of views, perhaps some, somewhere do believe as you say but personally i have never come across them. However, i believe it is fair to say (perhaps Chris or someone better versed in Gnosticism can provide enlightenment) there is a considerable consensus who believe through understanding, wisdom and time they may begin to learn, behave, think as Jesus would wish them – and that Jesus (or some other higher symbol of wisdom) would wish them to behave and think as he does. To love as he does – is that not your goal too?

As i contemplate your position it occurs to me that there is a fundamental difference to the way we approach life. To be sure it is not for me to say what you do and don't do and why, but a couple of observations based on your posts. The KJV Bible is the word of God, the Truth, all else must fall in line or it is a lie. It is your wall, it is your shelter, and (barring physical) gives you sustenance. It is your truth, your way of life. It is your master, that is, you are enslaved to it, and in return it offers life. You SE are happy to be enslaved to it (or your reading of it), it offers a reason and excuse for all that you do within the boundaries of you world, and no doubt it absolves your sins. All you must do is never ask why.

Me, i am filled with doubt, just like the Thomas your religion so heartily condemns (and if Jesus called at my door i'd want more than a couple of scars on his hands), full of question and wonder. And when i look at my world i realise i know all but nothing – i see a world of discovery and adventure, of possibility, knowledge, wisdom.
As a child i learnt to love Jesus and his teachings but as i grew and observed his so called followers, most particularly those in authority it became apparent they were no more than hypocrites and liars. And when i looked further, i found a whole mass of teachings from around the world that apparently echoed Jesus' sentiments (although many were from before Jesus) – Lao Tzu, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammed... yet all with their independent teachings and personal wisdoms offering ever greater understanding to humanity and society. It's funny, the more you read the more you realise you don't know, the more you travel the more you realise you don't know, the more you question, the more you realise you don't know (perhaps that is my goal, to not know more than anyone else in history). Now i want to understand everything (psychology, science, anthropology, economics, ethics...) - i read from everywhere, some i discard, some i incorporate, and some smashes walls and shakes foundations, and always more questions than answers. But although my knowledge is small, minuscule, inadequate, it grows, it travels across borders (fences), it comes with the air i breathe, and it evolves. And, barring God (Truth)(that which provides sustenance), i'll have no one tell me what i can or can't read or think or consider. i'll submit to no other master and i do not believe s/he would wish me to.

big hugs,
Vitam Impendere Vero
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08-31-2007, 11:35 PM,
#9
challenging authority
M&R...JUST STOP IT!!!

THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE UPHOLDING:

Lucis Trust: Satanism and NWO

http://www.realnews247.com/the_lucis_trust...and_the_nwo.htm

It is rather nauseating:barf: :barf::barf::barf::barf::barf::barf:

Don't YOU THINK??

So if you are down with those clowns, what can I say.....
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09-01-2007, 12:08 AM,
#10
challenging authority
i don't know why i bother

i don't think you read anything i write

but go on, have the last word...
Vitam Impendere Vero
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09-01-2007, 12:21 AM,
#11
challenging authority
Just read that very extensive ALL IN ONE SUMMARY LINK...that is what you should be commenting on...nothing to say about that?

It is essentially the entire history for you all in one place....what not informative enough??
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09-01-2007, 12:44 AM,
#12
challenging authority
this seems really foolish (because of course you won't listen) - and i'll not respond again unless you have an argument -

but i would like to point out, that the normal way this sort of debate should be shaped is for us to counter each others' arguments with dialog, perhaps citing easily referenced examples. not just citing examples which may or may not contain an answer if one sifts through it, without answering the question or challenge beforehand - you can't even pass high school exams with that scam, let alone participate in a rational debate.

go away and think about it - do not post me another fucking link - for Jesus Christ's sake, please:love:
Vitam Impendere Vero
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09-01-2007, 12:55 AM,
#13
challenging authority
M&R - it is about research. I am just one person. You are just one person.

That is MAJOR historical research in that there link dear, but anyhoo:love:
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09-01-2007, 01:30 AM,
#14
challenging authority
Ok, I'm lost here. I don't even kow what a Gnostic. SE, what is the problem with saying Jesus didn't have a Bible? Back then it was on scrolls or tablets but still some He taught was new doctrine. I know I'm not God but I haven't seen anything in this discussion so far that denotes anybody saying they are. I take it your Catholic so even though our techings were somewhat different I'm a Baptist, we use the same KJV, but still looking around at many that are the same demoniation I question if I am anymore a Baptist. Sometimes we let religion get in the way of our faith.

I have to know why, maybe it's a fault within me. I have questions that just because don't answer. It is nothing to me nor do I disrespect another's choice of what name one calls God, even our very own name is pronounced differently in other languages, yet we are still the same person.

There are things in humanity that we call all learn from each other no matter what religion. Looking at the new version of the Bible we see some mistranslated verses so over time, either intentional or through human error there are some in the KJV. Some languages don't have words for a word in another language. Some may have just wanted to make something to where it can be related to in current days and mistakes are made and meaning is lost. I also wonder just how easy it would be to add something for one's own benefit. One must look upon the time and the people in translations, even today. If you translate something from Spanish to English and altered it I would not know the difference since I don't know Spanish. How open would I then be to errors or intentional additions or subtractions.

I noticed in the late 60s when I got my first Bible it was noticeably thinner. Last year I met a Baptist preacher, an old man who talked for a while at our office. My first thoughts were Oh crap, here we go again. He talked for quite a while about how much had been taken from the Bible and showed me one of his older ones and it was also KJV. He ran to the truck and brought a newer one, it was still from the late 70s. Man was there ever a difference. Then he showed me omissions he had found. He didn't preach anymore and had not in years because he said the message had changed. He was one of the first real Christians I had met and one of the few. I've never seen him after that but actually would like to. He was very much different than what we see today calling themselves Christian, more like what some were many years ago. If you corner me into a demoniation I'd say Baptist yet not like many today.
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09-01-2007, 09:09 AM,
#15
challenging authority
SE, 2 questions , straight-forward simple answer much appreciated.

Do you think the way in which you mark people or label them part of some
group / element of "the occult", Gnosticism,satanism whatever,
when in actuallity you dont know the person ,
has the intended effect for you ? what effect is that ?

When you don't anwser any points made but throw a link at someone,
whom you accuse of upholding the same beliefs as presented by "the bad guys"
when in actuallity you dont know the person ,
how do you imagine that that helps ?

peace'
If Thine I that I spy with my own little I Doeth Offend thee ; Pluck It out.

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