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challenging authority
09-30-2007, 04:30 PM,
#61
challenging authority
Hey mothandrust welcome back!

all other forms of authority hold no validity, they are middlemen, peddling their versions of 'truth' to the weak, foolish and lazy. but they must be lies, for they can never remove themselves (and their interests) from the equation. i.e. the very naming of God (or Truth) must destroy the reality.

i agree with all that except that to me "weak, foolish and lazy" sounds derisive.

resonate

I am not reaching conclusions about you when I write what comes next, I try not to pretend I know what goes on for other people. Please view this as an impression of your last post rather than some kind of judgement on it or you. Your adequacy is not in question because if it was the question would be meaningless for me.

So here we go:

You think the world is suffering

You think symbols control us

You think symbols cause ignorance

You think there is a lot of ignorance

You think ignorance is the cause of war

You think our cultures with their technologies are not natural

You think litter means we have no respect for and are alienated from nature

You think we should see the plants and animals lives respected as if they were human

You think other animals and plants play fair and we do not

You think we do not know ourselves

You think fear of death causes problems for people

You think we are forced into the mainstream

You seem quite idealistic and you're fairly positive about it but it still sounds like you focus a lot on things you don't like. You're positive enough to be after a solution to these troubles you see but too negative and certain to see them as anything but troubles. There that's that, sorry if am out of place creating and sharing it. What do you say? Am I way off target?

I might be completely wrong about this also. When you talk about take with a capital T, you turn it into a noun, a name for a concept you have. You appear to be making more symbols which is interesting but anyway this sounds like a dualistic concept, the drive behind an action being either give or take. Or perhaps it's something more like a transaction that is fair when the give is balanced by take. If it's a transaction how do you balance give and take? How do you resolve it when there is disagreement? How do the other animals and plants all agree on this?

How did I get here? Made and grown seem very similar to me and I believe chance is part of both of them. I would have to say that I don't have a static belief about my coming into existance. I currently don't believe it's possible to find out. Why I am here and what I have to do is up to me, just like everyone else. But i guess thats a metabelief. I'm sorry it seems I can't answer the question.

All the best

Mekon
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09-30-2007, 10:46 PM,
#62
challenging authority
Quote:Hey mothandrust welcome back!

all other forms of authority hold no validity, they are middlemen, peddling their versions of 'truth' to the weak, foolish and lazy. but they must be lies, for they can never remove themselves (and their interests) from the equation. i.e. the very naming of God (or Truth) must destroy the reality.

i agree with all that except that to me "weak, foolish and lazy" sounds derisive.
i agree Mekon, it does sound derisive but i am not excluding myself from the criticism. in fact, subconsciously, i think i aim it at myself more than anyone. so perhaps it is my own baggage, but i think if one relies on (schools, roads...) and supports (pays taxes, observes laws...) a system that one knows is corrupt for the trinkets it offers (as i do) one must be guilty. the other alternative is ignorance.

i'm sure this sounds harsh - sorry - but i think it's about taking responsibility for/ownership of actions, both one's own and those perpetrated on one's behalf - and most particularly if one lives under a system supposedly elected by the demos.

i know this is an unpopular view, almost no one i know agrees with me. but i don't have the view to be popular, i have the view because to my mind the logic is indisputable. putting an 'X' in a box does not give away ownership, it is saying i trust this person to act on my behalf (that is why i would never vote for anyone i trust less than myself (i.e. no one)).

big hugs,
Vitam Impendere Vero
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10-01-2007, 03:23 AM,
#63
challenging authority
Quote:If you were to die tomorrow, would you be ready?
Resonate, are you familiar with warrior philosophy? It is based on that EXACT QUESTION, and the profound effects that facing it can have ones actions and awareness.

The following is from a talk given by artist Cliff Benton just days before he died...


Way of The Warrior

Quote:"In my years of learning about warrior philosophy and talking about warrior philosophy it seems that nine times out of ten I run into somebody who says, well I don't like that word, warrior. And I understand peoples need to support peaceful things, peaceful resistance, and all those other concepts. But we have to understand that this word warrior came from the native american people, that they had their own word and when we turn around and translate it the word is warrior, it includes the word war. But I'm not going to assume that that is a violent connection.

What I found out about being a warrior is that warriors true primary objective is a spiritual one, that protecting the people and going into battle is secondary to primary objective of being a warrior, the spiritual objective. So a warrior is not necessarily a soldier, really the true job of a warrior is learn to unravel the mystery, the great mystery of life, the fundamental question. In a way, a warrior is the native american parallel to a white mans priest, only I think now that its more complex and involves more than religion.

I was taught that a warriors primary tools are mind, spirit and body, like a triangle with three points its one thing. I was taught that that was very important for a warrior to understand, that mind spirit and body are one thing. I was taught the concepts of all my relations, when I would be around my Lakota friends, I would hear the say AHO MITAKUYE OYASIN, "All My Relations", and for a couple of years I didn't understand what that meant. I could understand that I'm related, all my relations to lots of things in the universe, but I realized then that the idea is deeper than that. I realized that the concept that these people were trying to teach me, this ancient concept, was one that tries to tell a warrior that you are related directly to everything in the universe, that everything is one, that I am the bear, that I am the eagle. I was taught that we're creating reality, that we are responsible for all the good and the bad that's happening around us. I was taught that ancestral heritage is extremely important, and that I am my ancestors back to the beginning of time.

I was taught that everything around me, all the things in the universe are sacred and alive, and when I would go into the sweat lodge, I would hear people talk of the rocks and call them the oldest people. I didn't understand that concept at first, the oldest people, the rocks! And the wise man would say, no, they are alive, maybe not like you and me, but they are alive. I was taught that the mountains are alive, that the earth is literally our mother, that it's alive, that fires alive, that water is alive, that the wind is alive, that can they be communicated with.

I was told that I would have to be willing to make sacrifices, I'd have to willing to accept the struggles in my life instead of crying about them, instead of complaining, that I had to be willing to fight. I was told that that would make me strong wise and healthy. An analogy that a spiritual leader once said to me was when you see the elk lay down at night in the forest he always seeks a spot where he'll be surrounded by forest litter because he has to worry about the predator coming in. He has to sleep with one eye open, he doesn't know anything about deep sleep, he'll never get to enjoy rest and sleep like humans have, like we have. That's never going to happen in his life. And that seems sad, in a way, but what it does for the animal is expand its sensory and physical capabilities, teaches it grace, gives it power.

I was taught that indulgence in life was a waste of time, that there were things called acts, acts of a warrior, where one tries to avoid indulgence for the most part. This doesn't mean a warrior doesn't have a good time and doesn't stop to smell the roses, but it does mean that the warrior will be moving on. I was taught that the sweat lodge, the vision quest, the sun-dance, were warriors rights, they were acts of power that designed to help the warrior balance and focus, to direct the warrior, to keep the warrior fixed on the true target.

I was taught that ignorance and self-importance is the name of the enemy. I was taught that the people in the world that are evil-doers are victims of the enemy, they are not the enemy. Its a mistake that so many people make in our world, we look at the evil-doers and we say "that person has got to be stopped, that's persons our enemy" and that person is not our enemy, they are the victims of the enemy. I was taught that true fulfillment was found in the expression of human potential, of expanding one human potential, that true fulfillment is found by seeking the fundamental question. I was taught that expanding human potential builds strength, bravery, conditioning of mind spirit and body. Expressing human potential prepares the warrior to seek the fundamental answer.

A spiritual leader that I knew put it this way, he said that we in this time of history are in a unique kind of a situation. He said that those historical events, not only in the native american world, but in the non-indian world too, had caused people to doubt the spirit, that if people had believed in the gods and religions before they were doubting it. He said over here on the right is the idea that we are nothing more than biological beings, we're born into this world, we live an apparently meaningless life and we die form this world and its a done deal. A pretty depressing place to be. But he said over here on the left is the idea that something very mysterious, very powerful, very phenomenal is happening, that the spirit does exist, and that its out here far off to the left. He said that in all human life people fluctuate from being over here on the right, in this depressing place, to making it down the road a little ways, to the left. And they fluctuate back and forth. He said that some people get out of this very depressing place on the right and make it down the road a little ways and set up camp and stay there the rest of their lives. They never go on down the road to really see what out there off to the extreme left.

A warrior learns to work their way down that path off to the left, with skill and technique and training, with information and leadership and guidance from the medicine men and spiritual leaders. A warrior works his way off to the left as disciplined as possible, as well trained as possible, he looks and observes for tools, anything that a warrior can use, or improvise even, to make it down this road to the left, to see what the hell is out here.

As a warrior makes his way down this road he attempts to collect evidence, and forgive me for saying he because I believe women to be warriors too... the warriors job is to collect evidence and bring it back, bring back proof. A warrior is not asked to accept anything on blind faith, a warriors not asked to accept Lakota ways, a warrior is told you need to find out for yourself. A warrior job is to fight his way down the road to the left in his quest for the sacred, for power. If a warrior is able to gain some kind of energy is able to heal himself or someone else, than that's evidence. If a warrior is able to bring back insights whether it be specific insights or some kind of information we would not otherwise of known, then that's evidence. If a warrior learns to master his dreams and become awake in his dreams, in his or her dreams, a warrior is able to realize that there really is something to communicate with in dreams, that maybe it really is another level of reality, then the warrior brings back evidence. I was given a warning though, since most of us are dying to believe in UFOs, we're dying to believe in ghosts, we're dying to believe in the spirit, we're dying to believe in god, we're dying to believe in the phenomenal. Most of us will accept anything, and not be critical of it, and not really look into it to see if its real. Instead of seeking we follow, instead of being warriors and asking if is real power... or just the image of it.

I was taught that the weapons of a warrior who tries to fight his way down this road is the spirit arrow. And the spirit arrow is knowing. The more that a warrior can know who, what, where, when, how, why the more finely honed that arrow will be. The bow that fires that arrow is wisdom.

I was also taught that for every warrior that is born a thousand will follow. I was taught that if I could somehow fight my way down the left of the road and become a warrior, then maybe in my lifetime a thousand warriors could follow me.

I was taught that the only true profession in life is to seek to know, that everything else is secondary. That to have a career, nice family and cars that's nice and everything, but that's not the true fulfillment of life. The only thing that lasts forever is knowing."

Cliff Benton
February 8th, 1994
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10-01-2007, 04:05 AM,
#64
challenging authority
i'm with you Chris, i have no problem with the term and i understand why you like to use it.

personally i tend to shy away from it because of the confusion it potentially causes in the minds of others, perhaps a bit like jihad (ironic i guess, seeing as i'm so keen on using the image of Che).

i was trying to think of a different term, but couldn't come up with one - perhaps it's my general resistance to labels. a few years back someone asked me what i was, the best description i could come up with was a proto-nihilist.
Vitam Impendere Vero
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10-01-2007, 06:21 AM,
#65
challenging authority
I like your question summation.


You think the world is suffering: <span style="color:#33FF33">I believe there is unecessary suffering.

You think symbols control us: <span style="color:#33FF33">If we treat them like they are actually reality.

You think symbols cause ignorance: <span style="color:#33FF33">If it isn't balanced

You think there is a lot of ignorance: <span style="color:#33FF33">Yes.

You think ignorance is the cause of war: <span style="color:#33FF33"> I wouldn't say exclusively.

You think our cultures with their technologies are not natural: <span style="color:#33FF33">When technology promotes ignorance.

You think litter means we have no respect for and are alienated from nature: <span style="color:#33FF33">Usually, but not in every situation, it seems to happen often when people are absent minded (to busy listening to their own thoughts).

You think we should see the plants and animals lives respected as if they were human: <span style="color:#33FF33">No, respected as if they are all life... and respecting them because they are simply here.

You think other animals and plants play fair and we do not: <span style="color:#33FF33"> Fair is subjective, but I would say that they only take what they need, unlike most humans.

You think we do not know ourselves: <span style="color:#33FF33"> Collectively, no, individually there are varying levels.

You think fear of death causes problems for people: <span style="color:#33FF33"> Yes, because fear of death tells me that one is not connected with all life, there is no life without death, it's a circle. Death wasn't looked at as something that was bad or taboo until we disconnected from life.

You think we are forced into the mainstream: <span style="color:#33FF33">Forced by ignorance, legally. if you don't live in an area that will provide for you naturally, or at least allow you to give and take equally, you have to make money... therefore you have to be connected to mainstream dependance until you learn a way out. The way out comes first from within, then spreads out collectively.

The Mekon Wrote:You seem quite idealistic and you're fairly positive about it but it still sounds like you focus a lot on things you don't like.

You're positive enough to be after a solution to these troubles you see but too negative and certain to see them as anything but troubles. There that's that, sorry if am out of place creating and sharing it. What do you say? Am I way off target?

Naturalism, Idealism, Materialism are all ideas, none of them actually exist, ideas are just ideas. I just see that the world we've created isn't working, and it is based on mythology. The world we live in currently is more idealistic. Í came to this message board to not only aquire help-to-help, usually helping requires talking about the things people may feel they need help with.

There are two basic myths that drive human beings that I've come to learn. 1. "The world belongs to us". and 2. "We belong to the world". I advocate #2 because it takes everything into consideration. One is centered and is coherently here, the other is trapped in the future and creates anxiety. If you feel belong to the world, you have no fear or anxiety. When you actually feel that you are one with all things, you have a friend (or feeling of love) everywhere, you're never lost. So, while it seems that I focus on the negative, it's really only up to you to take it like that or not. I'm really just thinking of these things as challenges we need to face.


The Mekon Wrote:You're positive enough to be after a solution to these troubles you see but too negative and certain to see them as anything but troubles. There that's that, sorry if am out of place creating and sharing it. What do you say? Am I way off target?

I would say "troubles" are actually challenges that people aren't facing. Instead of facing them, they want technology(authority) to fix it for them, and hence escalate the challenge into a trouble and in turn, escalate the trouble into a major problem that gets harder and hader to solve. Either way, people will suffer, but if we can help minimize or even end the suffering for people sooner, than later... it's still worth a try. Basically, I think the solution for ending suffering is right now, but, most people only get glimpses of that.

The mekon Wrote:I might be completely wrong about this also. When you talk about take with a capital T, you turn it into a noun, a name for a concept you have. You appear to be making more symbols which is interesting but anyway this sounds like a dualistic concept, the drive behind an action being either give or take. Or perhaps it's something more like a transaction that is fair when the give is balanced by take. If it's a transaction how do you balance give and take? How do you resolve it when there is disagreement? How do the other animals and plants all agree on this?

Much like... if night doesn't exist without day, then they are not seperate, therefore they are one, much like give and take. So I'm kind of speaking like give is seperate from take because that's how it's traditionally looked at, for the sake of talking, I have to say it like that. And, even though I don't feel it like that, I created the symbol because the meaning would be understood better.


Chris Carota Wrote:Resonate, are you familiar with warrior philosophy? It is based on that EXACT QUESTION, and the profound effects that facing it can have ones actions and awareness.

Yes.

Quote:The following is from a talk given by artist Cliff Benton just days before he died...

I agree wholeheartedly with Cliff Bentons speech above. Wasn't he assassinated?

Your, "the way" torrent is excellent btw. How did you come across "seeing through native eyes?" Did you take kamana?
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10-01-2007, 05:21 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-01-2007, 05:26 PM by mothandrust.)
#66
challenging authority
resonate, with you all the way. all very well articulated. there's little to add, just one brief observation, not in opposition but just to offer my perspective.

Quote:You think fear of death causes problems for people: <span style="color:#33FF33"> Yes, because fear of death tells me that one is not connected with all life, there is no life without death, it's a circle. Death wasn't looked at as something that was bad or taboo until we disconnected from life.

i think this is particularly true in our modern world. death, not hell has become our fear. this i suspect has always been the case for authority, after all, when one considers their general behaviour, they have always been least likely to enter the kingdom. with the birth of 'enlightened' man and the effective sidelining of religion, people now focus far more on short-term self-interest - heaven becomes some distant superstition.

as such, almost no one is prepared for death - they just do their best to avoid it (futile). to be prepared for death one must have made peace (absence of conflict) with one's maker. Jesus and Buddha, i believe, would say the same.

big hugs,

edit: the maker is our only true authority. all other is a lie.
Vitam Impendere Vero
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10-01-2007, 07:31 PM,
#67
challenging authority
Yes, exactly, well put.

The only thing is, I try to shy away from the term "maker", just because it's not how I see it. But I agree with how you think of it:).
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10-01-2007, 07:53 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-01-2007, 07:54 PM by mothandrust.)
#68
challenging authority
maker, as you say is an inadequate term - perhaps i should have said Dao or Truth or Whole or... i don't know, how do you name the unnameable?
Vitam Impendere Vero
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10-02-2007, 06:43 AM,
#69
challenging authority
Quote:maker, as you say is an inadequate term - perhaps i should have said Dao or Truth or Whole or... i don't know, how do you name the unnameable?

I only shy from it with people who don't get it:)

How about <span style="color:#FF0000">THEE <span style="color:#FFCC33">S<span style="color:#FFFFFF">w<span style="color:#FF0000">i<span style="color:#66FFFF">rl<span style="color:#FFFFFF">i<span style="color:#FF99FF">n<span style="color:#C0C0C0">g ?
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