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The West is the best
09-13-2007, 06:08 AM,
#61
The West is the best
Quote:That would be great, have you P.M the guy Ctrl ?
you already know my question here lol.

I would, but since I'll be very shortly AFK for a week, I see no point in it. I have my reservations about him lasting that long. He's pissing into the wind on this forum and he knows it.
09-13-2007, 10:27 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2007, 10:33 AM by shZ.)
#62
The West is the best
Quote:
Quote:Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123
Fight for Allah with your wealth and whatever weapons are available to you. 9:41
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73
Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory. 9:12-14
Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193
Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. 8:39
Ahh, don't you just love ignorance stemming from deliberately distorted and out of context quotations propagating an obvious and politically driven veiw for whipping up hatred amongsts the masses against a targeted people. Allow me dispell some of the nonsense you're propagating here. If you know a thing about the process of understanding any religious text, context is a necessary and fundamental tool in interpreting it's meaning. When it comes to the Quran specifically, each Surah was revealed in a particular instance of time and under particular circumstances. Ignoring that historical context and isolating particular verses to paint a certain picture is nothing short of being disingenuos and completely intellectually dishonest. Let's take it a step at time shall we?

Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
First of all, warfare is only justifiable in self defense against persecution from an agressor. Surah 2, Al-Baqarah clearly lays this premise as the foundational principle of jihad (i.e. struggle) when it take on the form of an armed struggle:

[2:190] And fight in God's cause those who wage war against you, but no not commit agression - for, verily, Gos does not love aggressors.

[2:191] And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away - for opression is even worse than killing. And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth.

[2:193] Hence, fight against them until there in no more opression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who wilfully do wrong.


To give you some backround, pre-Islamic Arabia was a largely pagan society and monotheistism only existed in small pockets of Christian and Jewish communites at the time there. The prominet tribes of Mekkah and Medina, particularly the Banu Quraish, were quite obviously opposed to anything that would upset the status quo. Their position of tribal dominance, wealth, status, influence and social control all depended on the pagan culture as pre-Islamic Mekkah was a center of pagan religous worship where people from all over the Middle East would make pilgrimage to appease their Gods. Entereance in to the holy city, that the Quraish amost other tribes controlled, required material sacrifice and monetary donations for access to the then idol filled Kabbah. There were many pre-existing social norms there contrary to Islam thast Muhammad was preaching against, like the wide spread infanticide of baby girls, persecussion and maltreatment of servants/slaves/the poor, disposessing women of rights and property, prostituion, class division, perpetual tribal warfare, amost a host of other things.

When Muhammad started preaching monotheism (Islam) and a message of human equality, he started gaining a following amongst the poor, the opressed, slaves, orphans, and women etc. Gradually as his following was increasing and his ideas were beggining to spread, the Quraish and other powerful tribes of Mekka nd Media took note of this. Islam messages was contrary to their cultural inheritance, religious beliefs, and more importantly, economic, social, and spiritual controll and dominance. As a consequence, Muslims were a heavily presucuted minority and often tortured and killed for not renouncing their faith, particularly amongst slaves. As a result, Muhammad and his followers had to migrate a few times to avoid persecution (and it's not like their persecuters didn't follow them where they went, long story short, they were deterimental to their interests). So anyways... those verses were reavleaved under conditions where they were being persecuted and slaughtered after treaties has been proken by the Quraish, Banu Hashim and other tribes. Verse 9:29 is one of them most commonly mistranslated verses. Infact, what you quoted isn't even half accurate lol. Here's a somewhat more accurate translation by Muhammad Asad, aGerman Jew who converted to Islam:

[9:29] [And] fight against those who - despite hacing been vouchsafed revelation [afortime] - do not [truly] believe either in God or the Last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and no not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon the], till they [agree to] pay the exemption tax with a willing hand, after having been humbled [in war].

Again, isolate a verse by taking it out of context and mislead people with a destorted meaning. Ignorance perpetuates ignorance. Here's some of the verses following it:

[9:30] And the Jews say, "Ezra is Gon's son," while the Christians say, "The Christ is God's son." Such are the sayings which they utter with their mouths, following in spirit assertions made in earlier times by people who denied the truth. [They deserve the imprecation:] "May God destroy them."
How perverted are their minds.

[9:31] They have taken their rabbis and their monks - as well as the Christ, son of Mary - for their lords besides God, although they had been bidden to worship none but the One God, save whom there is no deity: the One who is utterly remote, in His limitless glory, from anything which they may ascribe a share in His divinity.

[9:32] They want to extinguish God's [guiding] light with their utterances: but God will not allow [this to pass], for He has willed to spread His light in all it's fullness, howerver hateful this may be to all who deny the truth.

[9:33] He is is who sent forth His Apostle with the [task of spreading] guidance and the religion of truth, to the end that He may cause it to prevail over all [false] religion - however hateful this may be to those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God.

[9:34] O you who have attained to faith! Behold, many of the rabbis and monks do indeed wrongfully devour men's possessions and turn [others] away from the path of God. But as for all who lay up treasures of gold and sliver and do not spend them for the sake of God - give them the tiding of grievious suffereing [in the life to come]

[9:35] On the Day when that [hoarded wealth] shall be heated in the fire of hell and their foreheads and their sides and their backs branded therewith, [those sinners shall be told] "These are the treasures which you have laid upon for yourselves. Taste, then [the evil of] your hoarded treasures."


And some of the verses preceding it:

[9:1] Disavowal by God and His Apostle [is here with announced] unto those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God, [and] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant.

[9:2] [Announce unto them:] "Go, then, [freely] about the earth for four months - but know that you can never elude God, and that, verily, God shall bring disgrace upon all who refuse to acknowledge the truth."

[9:3] And a prcolamation from God and His Apostle [is herewith made] unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage: "God disavows all who ascribe divinity to auth beside Him, and [so does] His Apostle. Hence, if you repent, it shall be for your own good; and if you turn away, then know that you can never elude God."

[9:4] But excepted shall be - from amonst those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - [peopple] with who you [O believers] have made a covenant and who thereafter have in no wise failed to fulfil their obligations towards you, and neigther have aided anyone against you: observe, then, your covenant with them until the end of the term agreed with them. Verily, God loves those who are concious of Him.

[9:5] And so, when the sacred months are over, slay those who ascribe to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and beseige them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place. Yet if they repent, and kate to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

[9:6] And if any of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God seeks thy protection, grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word ff God [from thee]; and thereupon convery him to a place where he can feel secure: this, because they [may be] people who [sin only because they] do not know [the truth].

[9:7] How could they who ascribe divinity to aught beside God be grandted a covenant by God and His Apostle, unless it be those [of them] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant in the vicinity of Invoilable House of Worship? [As for the latter,] so long as they remain true to you, be true to them: for verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him.

[9:8] How [else could it be]? - since they [who are hostile to you] were to overcome you, they would not respect you any tie [with you,] not any obligation to protect [you]. They seek to please you with their mouths, the while their hearts remain averse [to you]; and most of them are inquitous.

[9:9] God's mesages have they bartered away for a trifling gain, and have thus turned away for a trifling gain, and have thus turned away from His path: evil, behold, is all that they want to do

[9:10] Respecting no tie and no protective obligation with regards to a believer; and it is they, they who transgress the bounds of what is right.

[9:11] Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, they become your brethren in faith: and clearly do We spell out these messages unto people of [innate] knowledge.

[9:12] But if they break their solemn pledges after having concluded a covenant, and revile your religion, then fight against these archetypes of faithlessness who, behold, have no [regard for their own], pledges, so that they might desist [from aggression]

[9:13] Would you, perchance, fail to fight against people who have broken their solemn pledges, and have done all that they could drive the Apostle away, and have been first to attack you? Do you hold them in awe? Nay, it is God alone of whom you out to stand in awe, if you are [truly] believers.

[9:14] Fight against them! God will chastise them by your hands, and will bring disgrace upon them, and will succour you against them; and He will soothe the bosoms of those who believe,

[9:15] And will remove the wrath that is in their hearts. And God will turn in His mercy unto whom he wills: for, God is all-knowing, wise.

[9:16] Do you [O believers] think that you will be spared" unless God takes cognizance of your having striven hard [in His cause]' without seeking help from any but God and His Apostle and those who believe in Him?'5 For, God is aware of all that you do.

[9:17] It is not for those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God to visit or tend God's houses of worship, the while [by their beliefs] they bear witness against themselves that they are denying the truth. It is they whose works shall come to nought, and they who in the fire shall abide!

[9:18] Only he should visit or tend God's houses of worship who believes in God and the Last Day, and is constant in prayer, and spends in charity, and stands in awe of none but God: for [only such as] these may hope to be among the rightguided.

[9:19] Do you, perchance, regard the [mere] giving of water to pilgrims and the tending of the Inviolable House of Worship as being equal to [the works of] one who believes in God and the Last Day and strives hard in God's cause? These [things] are not equal in the sight of God. And God does not grace with His guidance people who [deliberately] do wrong.

[9:20] Those who believe, and who have forsaken the domain of evil" and have striven hard in God's cause with their possessions and their lives have the highest rank in the sight of God; and it is they, they who shall triumph [in the end]!

[9:21] Their Sustainer gives them the glad tiding of the grace [that flows] from Him, and of [His] goodly acceptance, and of the gardens which await them, full of lasting bliss, (22) therein to abide beyond the count of time. Verily, with God is a mighty reward!

[9:23] O you who have attained to faith! Do not take your fathers and your brothers for allies if a denial of the truth is dearer to them than faith: for those of you who ally themselves with them-it is they, they who are evildoers!"

[9:24] Say: "If your fathers and your sons and your brothers and your spouses and your clan, and the worldly goods which you have acquired, and the commerce whereof you fear a decline, and the dwellings in which you take pleasure - [if all these] are dearer to you than God and His Apostle and the struggle in His cause, then wait until God makes manifest His will; and [know that] God does not grace iniquitous folk with His guidance."

[9:25] Indeed, God has succoured you on many battlefields, [when you were few;] and [He did so, too,] on the Day of Hunayn, when you took pride in your great numbers and they proved of no avail whatever to you -for the earth, despite all its vastness, became [too] narrow for you and you turned back, retreating:

[9:26] whereupon God bestowed from on high His [gift of] inner peace upon His Apostle and upon the believers, and bestowed [upon you] from on high forces which you could not see, and chastised those who were bent on denying the truth: for such is the recompense of all who deny the truth!


[9:27] But with all this, God will turn in His mercy unto whom He wills: for God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.'

[9:28] O YOU who have attained to faith! Those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God are nothing but impure:" and so they shall not approach the Inviolable House of Worship from this year onwards ' And should you fear poverty, then [know that] in time God will enrich you out of His bounty, if He so wills:" for, verily, God is all-knowing, wise!


Ok, now like I said earlier, interpreting any Quranic Surah or verses fundumentaly must include considering it's historical context and context to other verses. A short little history lesson; after Muhammad and his followers migrated from Mekka to Medina to avoid persecution (literally being tortured and killed) by the Quraish, forces were continuoly dispatched after them in attempt to crush the new religious ideological movement from growing elsewhere nearby.

The Battle of Hunayn was essentially somwhat of an ambush (though not really, since the fleeing Muslims had been allerted that they were being followed by an army from Mekka ready to slay them) and was fought between Muhammad and his followers against Bedouin tribe of Hawazin and its subsection Thaqif in 630 in a valley on one of the roads leading from Mecca to al-Ta'if. The battle ended in a decisive victory for the Muslims despite being disproportionately outnumbered. Supposedly, according to the Quran God aided the Muslims with 'invisible' (angelic?) allies. The point of mentioning this is that the Surah above references the Battle of Hunayn in context of only God 'helping' his true believers avoid persecution to the extent of extermination.

Now, by this point, in violation several peace treaties and contract that had already been proken by various Mekkan tribes, warfare was made a legitimate means of defense in face of impending persecution and destruction as a people and faith for Muslims. The references to "Jews" and "Christians" over there isn't one of bigotry, but rather that has to again be veiwed in context of the situation they were faced with. Since the Quran considers Jews and Christians to be people of the book (of the Prophet Moses and Jesus), as monotheist, Muslims were largely assuming they (including the religious heirarchy of Monks/Rabbis) would be sympathetic to their plight and persecution. On the contracy (not all Jews and Christians by any means, but certain Rabbinical authorities and Monks) were allied with the pagan tribes of Mekka and been breaking their covenant and contractual truce agreements with the Muslims by selling them out by supplying strategic information and at times even military assistance to the opposing armies.

I could expand on this and alot of other aspect of those verses, context, and historical significance for ever but I'm kind of tired of typing by this point and I think I've written enough for you to reconsider what you think you know. There's a lot more explantion and referencing historical events and various verse in the Quran itself to expand on the slanderous message you're propagating, so this by no means is a complete refutation of your ludicrous claims. I'm no scholar or devout Muslim by any means, but I hope you found a lesson from a "barbarian" somewhat enlightning.:rolleyes:

[edit:] Another quick comment, this was also during the holy month of Ramadan where warfare is generally forbidden. The pagan tribes of Mekka saw this as a strategic advantage and used it to literally start butchering thousands of Muslims, including at places of worship like mosques etc, so there's some more context for those verses.
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09-13-2007, 10:28 AM,
#63
The West is the best
I can also school on Zionism and the whole Israel / Palestine conflict if you'd like. Try diggin up some of the other threads I've posted in.
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09-13-2007, 10:56 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-13-2007, 11:00 AM by shZ.)
#64
The West is the best
I'm a little curious as to why and ignorant bigotted sheep is getting such a warm welcome at a place like ConCen? What's going on here? :sad:
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09-13-2007, 05:46 PM,
#65
The West is the best
Quote:I'm a little curious as to why and ignorant bigotted sheep is getting such a warm welcome at a place like ConCen? What's going on here? :sad:

IOW, why's he not banned yet?

Picture this shz.... (hypothetically) CC's a conspiracy forum... we think the Fed sucks dick... we think concentration camps await residents... we think the holocaust was a hoax... we ALSO THINK arabs attacked us on 911.... then along comes you.... sharing the real truth... should we boot you for contradicting what we think we know?

I'm just putting the shoe on the other foot...

I guess what I mean is, we have to allow dissent from what we believe, seeing how we dissent from the status quo.

If and when the guy truly becomes an ass, he'll get what's coming to him and I for one will not stand in the way of any admin wishing to boot him. I'm hoping he's got the two braincells to see that he'd have better luck on stormfront and just fuck off.
09-13-2007, 07:28 PM,
#66
The West is the best
I’m sorry I can’t answer all of you today. A year has 365 days so everything what is left out will have to be dealt with later. I’ll take this first.

Quote:
Quote: I feel civilised people have the moral obligation to support others against savages. To me this argument is on its own good enough to defend Israel. So I ask again, do you know a more appropriate word than savages?

you talk like some modern day missionary. what are savages?

If they would wear bearskins we wouldn’t have a hard time identifying them. These days they wear nice suits and drive in nice cars instead of on camels. To me savage means a state of mind, a stage of development. The Islam represents the habits norms and values of a primitive seventh century Arab desert tribe. And nothing more. And of one thing I’m really sure, it has nothing to do with god. I say, if there is a god, Islam is his biggest insult.

You don’t have to wear a bearskin to be a savage. Well dressed in nice western clothes doesn’t stop a savage being a savage. Take a look: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=vRlypk5OOpc

Quote:like for example the relative tolerance shown to the Jews in Islamic lands by comparison to how they have been treated by Christianity. remember, it was not Islam that supported Hitler, it was Christianity, most specifically Catholicism.
I disagree: Islam, Hitler & the Mufti: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=QygwC7S2iEY

Quote:i am also not denying that the Quran read in a certain way can be used to legitimate violence - but then show me a holy book that has not been used for that purpose. you cannot. remember also, it was not Islam that invented the concept of 'holy war' but Christianity, most specifically Catholicism.

Muslims invented jihad, holy war, on their own. They love to spread the lie that jihad means inner struggle. It doesn’t. By the way, it’s funny to translate inner struggle into German: Mein Kampf!

Quote:we constantly hear tales of 'suicide bombers', undoubtedly this inspires fear throughout populations, in some with good reason (generally those with US and Israeli fingerprints all over them), but what is never discussed is the feelings of desperation and hopelessness that lead children to blow themselves to pieces.

I can’t disagree more. If the suicide bombers act out of desperation then they must be desperate in the Filipinas, Thailand, Russia, Tjetsenia, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir, Bali, London, New York, Madrid and so on. This proofs it's not out of desperation. Killing innocents is just a normal Islamic battle technique. They can’t admit that to the civilised world so they cover up with lies their true savage nature.

5% of the people in Thailand are Muslim. Just as 5% of the Filipinas population is. Why do they get attacked just like Israel who is supposed have taken Islamic land?

You maybe right, maybe Muslims are hopeless and desperate. But is it that someone else’s fault? I don’t think so. If its true that Jews, a mere 0.2% of the world population, has so much more power and influence than the 20% of Muslims then maybe there’s something wrong with the latter. http://www.masada2000.org/nobel.html

In Japan the level of mathematics is for 12 years olds close to European university level. In Pakistan and many other Islamic countries the education at that age are merely koranlessons, if there is education at all. The Koran, the prefect book, has answers for all situations so nothing else is needed. About 75% of the Muslims in the world are still analphabetics. Don’t blame anybody else for their backwardness but themselves.

But get me right, I’m not against Muslims. I’m against Islam. I see Muslims as the first victims of Islam. Muslims are humans, Islam dehumanises them into savages. The more Islamic a state is, the more it resembles Afghanistan. The more Islamic a person is, the more he looks like a Taliban.

Quote:what you need here Manticore is perspective. and to understand there is more than one side to an argument (there are always many sides and many facets to every argument) - and understanding the arguments of the opposition is the only way, ever, (barring genocide) of resolving disputes.

I concentrate on one side of the story, and you do the other side. So the arguments will come together…

Quote:i was going to address you points individually, but really they are all the same question - where was Palestine?

If you run true the list of early Islamic attacks you can see that basically all conflicts today are in area’s of their early conquerings. Israel is just one example. If they don’t have border disputes with non-Muslim-states, they are fighting amongst each other. If Islam is a religion of peace, where exactly has it brought peace?

Quote:it is conveniently lost from history but Jewish communities often took refuge in the Islamic world when Christianity was at its most rampant and vicious.

When Israel was founded in 1948 about half a million Jews were expelled from the Arab and Islamic world. Guess were they went?

Quote:I’m not quite sure of the truth of this (and of course everyone who comes to this debate brings positions and prejudices) but i have heard that something like 90% of Jews do not actually find their origin in Palestine (and surrounding areas) but were actually Khazars, from a region way to the north on the Caspian Sea, who converted along with their king around the 8th century (i might be wrong with that date). if this is actually so, it appears to blow the flimsy ribbons of an excuse for Israel completely out the window - would you not agree?

I don’t know if it’s true what you say. Jews can also be found in Ethiopia. These people are Jews but also blacks. To me they can hardly make a historical claim on the land of Israel. But they can on religious grounds claim Jerusalem as their holy city. After all they are Jews. In America there is a group of black Jew called the Nation of Yahweh. It’s a murderous sect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_ben_Yahweh They claim to be the true Jews, the middle east Jews have taken their land they say. I can’t beat every claim people make. And also I don’t want to.

There is hardly in this matter a thing we’re really sure of. There is absolutely no proof that prophet Muhammad even existed. The only sources we have are hadith, oral stories, written down 200 years after his dead. It’s like my great great grandfather heard something about Napoleon and told his son, who told his son, who told his son ect, and now I’m telling you. Neither there is proof of Mozes, Jezus, Adam and Eve, and so on. But for believers this doesn’t seem to be a big obstacle.

Big hugs to you to. Have a nice day.
09-13-2007, 07:32 PM,
#67
The West is the best
Remember Troll I'm not as Christian as Ctrl

Fuck off away from this thread and move about the forums and we'll see what you have to say
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09-13-2007, 07:37 PM,
#68
The West is the best
:adminpower:

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