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Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
11-09-2007, 08:33 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-09-2007, 08:34 PM by jack.)
#61
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Quote:But isnt the Bible and the Church the very place we know of him in the first place? If those are by large incorrect or can proven to be made up, then why would you take any of it for actual truth?
That's not where I know of him. I've never been a member of any church nor did I grow up in one.

I did however go to catholic school a few years, it not only didn't teach me Jesus, but it also turned me off and caused me to reject "christianity"

They lied. I don't defend their 'local lodge' so to speak.

I don't claim to have the truth, these are merely my opinions.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
11-09-2007, 08:35 PM,
#62
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
so from where do you know jesus if not the bible or the Church?
Reply
11-09-2007, 08:44 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-09-2007, 08:47 PM by SerialExpLain.)
#63
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Quote:that was a great reply serial, thanks for that

So, with that out in the open, what i dont get is why you think i would be an agent, a gnostic, a devil worshipper and what else i have been tagged with just because i disagree with your religious views. Obviously you, yourself disagree wtih gnostics, and i cant help to wonder if you are not in fact doing the very thing against gnostics that you yourself would rather be free of?

You have to understand that when something/someone comes along and clims to be 'The Truth' it is going to be put under a lot of scrutiny. As i have stated before, i have no problem with peoples spirtual beliefs because those are househeld objects and not intended for broader adiences, where as its counterpart religion shall and must be attacked with whatever means possible.

I think that you at the core of it is a spiritual christian. You make up the rules as you go along, or you have a small groups of likeminds who agree on a set of morals. A religious christian is ready to burn you on a bonfire if you say any of the things i have said, where you just get insulted. And to be honest that is fair enough, i cant say that i wouldnt be if i was in your shoes. But im not, so there you go hehe;)

You're welcome horseonwheels. :smile:

Basically, my belief is that spirituality-religion-atheism-agnosticism, etc. are systems that should remain diverse and personal freedom of expression upheld. The only time I have a problem is when ANY criminal activity occurs under the cloak of a religious or spiritual goal, or when religions are co-opted for overt political purposes.

Because it really is just a numbers game. X amount of people will be atheists, X amount will be pagan, X amount Christian, etc. Everyone finds a construct that they are happy with or taste many before settling into one that is right for them. But ultimately, we all know that after we leave this mortal coil we will be somewhere that would be astonishing to us in some way if we fully experienced it now.
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11-09-2007, 10:30 PM,
#64
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
A pick apart, they always make for such long posts !
I should ignore but I'm feeling responsive

Quote:why would you assume such a thing, is christianity the only religion?

Of course it's not.
I assumed it, because you related religion to church, your post said nothing of synagogues or mosques or any other religious affiliated type buildings.

Quote:or whatever your particular cult or outview dictates about him to be true, we are talking about christianity. The self proclaimed faithfull followers of said guy, and what they do and did.

No cults, I am strictly individual in my beliefs, yet I do agree with other individuals on certain subjects.

To me religious groups are an abstract, like a forest. Some see a forest, while others see a lot of individual trees that form a forest.

Like you (I assume), I think that the world be happier if less people listened to their religious leaders, and more people thought for their self.

You keep lumping church/christians/believers of Jesus, in the same category.
Jesus never even suggested (as far as I know, it's not in the book, or any of the alternative books, that I'm familiar with) making buildings called churches, the church was to be the body of believers.
While they were called to be of like mind on matters pertaining to jesus teachings. There is no call to absolute conformity, there is room for different opinions on many matters (of course there isn't much room for differences in some church buildings, it's a shame, one of the reasons I disapprove of organized religion.)

Quote:SO yes i can prove it, but im not sure i could prove it to you.

Your right, you didn't convince me. I still consider the response merely debating.

My faith, is not in a book, I have been defending Jesus not the bible.

Quote:And when the church had political power, it fought like a beast. Give it political power and it will again fight like a beast, what do you think would have changed it is the same apperatus now as it was then

Your referring to RCC, now you don't want to get me started on catholicism, I have many problems with it and don't consider it a "christian" religion because it's not christ centered.

I agree with you fully on the horrors of mixing religion and government.

Quote:ok, a single example to humour you. pope, condoms, aids, africa. You find more yourself.

again this is RCC, and I don't understand why the have such a distaste of birth control. I guess to keep the ranks up, so to always have members.

The pope clams to be the "vicar of christ" or substitute of christ. This is against Jesus' teaching, so - not 'christian'

I want a new word to describe believers other than 'christian.' I don't consider myself a christian, atleast not in the sense that the word is known

Quote:look around you, i AM actually forced into your imaginary world through symblism all around me, i have to live under politics made up by people who belive what you belive and as such are motivated by it etc..

aren't you forgetting all the occult symbols, here in the US there are many symbols. The vast majority are occult related.

Quote:use scripture to back their deeds

We're back to OT/NT again here.

This was the decision of the RCC to put the two separate books together as one. I guess for power.


To use the bible to create a religion for the purpose of control, it would be very helpful to have them merged like they are. NT alone wouldn't work for this.

Example,
Jesus was inclusive of ALL peoples, unlike OT, with it as ONE book you can create race division.
With it as ONE book you can create things like the crusades.
A true follower of Jesus, not corrupted by Priests and OT would have had no part in conversion at the tip of a sword.

Like now, there are many nwo web sites run by christians, because the "conspiracy" seemingly follows or is following OT prophesy, these sites also push eternal hell.
There are 'kingdom builders' and 'christian zionists' trying to fulfill OT prophesy and bring about messiah, as I write this.
This could not happen with out OT and NT being merged into ONE book.
No true believer would be building kingdoms based on Jesus word alone, but with OT prophesy they will

Quote:The bible states that it is God who are to be your focus. And God is not a very nice man in the Bible. modern christianity and the Bible does nots eem to have a whole lot in common. In any of the modern branches from the southern baptists to the hippies, that is.

NT says, Jesus.
I don't think that he is a made up belief of the elite, for if one follows his words alone, without OT/jewish torah, we would not be having so much of these issues in the world. NT, Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

Other than that, I agree that God is not a very nice man in the Bible.

Quote:Not all those who believe do so through "blind faith" or "fear of hell." Many have had real experiences that show truth of higher powers, with some type of control over things on this earth.

As far as can tell this is the only statement that I made, that you didn't pick apart.




Quote:so from where do you know jesus if not the bible or the Church?

I have reasons to think and believe the things that I do. I posted one of those reasons here, I have others as well, that I may never share on this board but, who knows I might.




btw, I am not trying to take any of your words out of context by not using the entire quote. I just like shorter posts better than long ones. It is a lenght issue. These long posts are well, LONG.


one last thing -
your user name, do you like fast cars, motorcycles, or does it refer to neither ?
I like old fast cars and motorcycles.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
11-09-2007, 11:14 PM,
#65
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
OK jack,i hear you, but i fail to find the logic, or perhaps -any- foundation for your faith if it is not derived out of the Bible. It doesnt mean that i condemn it mind you, it is obvious that you are a pleasant person so the ideals you hold for whatever reason ressonates perfectly with me. We altso seem to understand both of us that the lodges, churches et all...are spiritual whorehouses where one can prostitute his or her ego by being seen performing 'teh holey!', another reason why i dont really need them chiming at me.

For you to understand how i am reading the Bible here is an example.

Quote:NT, Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

To me it is blatantly obvious that what is being said is that my destination is the father, but Jesus merely claims to be the way there. Obviously not even in the Biblical universe Jesus would come and handpick each individual, but he left something that all prophets and sers before and after him has left. 'The golden rule', his true legacy, by following that, you are following him, thus you walk the same path, the path that leads to the father, the target. I belive muslims by large makes a similar mistake. They follow what Muhammad supposedly should have done down to what shoe to put on first, but like christianity it floods and drowns the core teaching. The golden rule.

altso confronted with John 14:3 i have to look at John 14:2

Quote:"In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you."

Ofcourse some are going to jump right in and point out the obvious astro theological implications the 2 verses holds combined. But if we keep it on surface level, doesnt it say that he is going there to prepare a place to stay for his followers? which i lends strength to my first point that Jesus is not the point of focus, but God, the father is, and this altso suggest if anything that they are seperate beings.

and yeah i love cars, the more muscle the more fun, its really that simple. There is nothing that quite compares to the kick in the arse a well trimmed 600+hp engine delivers. Mustang is just such a cliché name with a range of lame associations to it. A horseonwheels on the other hand is something we love from where kids, and when were adults they get 600+ break horse power :freaked:
Reply
11-10-2007, 07:45 AM,
#66
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Glad we can agree on something and thanks, you seem Ok, to me too

I question all of this at times, mostly I question whether or not "heaven" is even a place that I would want to spend eternity. Sometimes I imagine it more like Yahweh's slave camp than a great place to be.
However, so far, rather than going back to my old belief of jesus being BS, I go back to the one I have now.

I find it interesting that in genesis 1st chapter, it says "god' made this and "god" made that, let "us" create in our image.
Then, 2nd chapter - "LORD God/ YHWH" aka Yahweh comes in, and claims creator status, and is throughout the rest of OT.
There is no teaching about the name Yahweh or Jehovah. in the New Testament.
Is this two separate beings ? I don't know. One things for sure, this "Yahweh " biblically speaking, can get very vengeful.


again, I'm glad that we have come to some type of agreement, I am weary of this conversation.

Fast cars are much more fun to talk about. I enjoy speeding, well not so much speeding as the initial take off, you know 0 to 60 in however many seconds, and drag racing, but unfortunately racing appears to be part of my past, who knows maybe one day I can do it again.

peace :-)
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply
11-11-2007, 11:12 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-11-2007, 12:33 PM by SerialExpLain.)
#67
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Quote:Is this two separate beings ? I don't know. One things for sure, this "Yahweh " biblically speaking, can get very vengeful

I think the entire message is consistent throughout but the OT is very graphic about it. That message being that this life we experience now is very fleeting. We all live in a fallen world. You get glipses of what is to come in extraordinary moments where there is a knowingness. (Different than knowledge) This kowingness is something that occurs via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can work on parts of you and leads to Jesus but the route there is a mystery I believe and as long as the Holy Spirit is operating in a person many changes will occur at deep levels.

People will feel a sense of isolation. Out of that sense of isolation, different types go about finding their ways to escape that feeling, but the truth is everything happens right in whatever moment you are in. It doesn't matter if you are suffering. In that moment you are perfect and not suffering. I doesn't matter what is around the corner. Because in that moment you are right where you need to be. Its just a matter of listening with the internal ear to hear the internal voice. So, we are not abadoned or left orphans....no, no. We are loved - always.

Heaven to me will be paradise. Where light is golden not harsh and bright. Amber and there are beautiful piazzas where flocks of doves fly from. All the animals and people are tame and life will be the perfection that was intended prior to the fall. That is a promise that was made by God who never ever doesn't do what He emphatically states He is going to do. He only asks that His will be trusted. I just don't have any problem getting out of His way as much as I can at any time, and we all fall short of this ideal and that is factored in as part of forgive them they do not know what they do.

Imagine a place of harmony, peace, tranquility, beauty, freedom, perhaps flight. Where everything makes sense -- THAT KIND OF EVERYTHING IS ALRIGHT SENSE. Like all the best ecstasies and raptures but sustainable. Truly....sustainable.

The sense that you will be thoroughly denied during your lifetime. Because whoever you are and wherever you are here, things won't make sense. But there are always glimpses of where your headed. That is ALWAYS PROVIDED as a 100% guarantee.
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11-11-2007, 08:08 PM,
#68
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Quote:
Quote:Is this two separate beings ? I don't know. One things for sure, this "Yahweh " biblically speaking, can get very vengeful

I think the entire message is consistent throughout but the OT is very graphic about it. That message being that this life we experience now is very fleeting. We all live in a fallen world. You get glipses of what is to come in extraordinary moments where there is a knowingness. (Different than knowledge) This kowingness is something that occurs via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can work on parts of you and leads to... Jesus ... but the route there is a mystery I believe and as long as the Holy Spirit is operating in a person many changes will occur at deep levels.

People will feel a sense of isolation. Out of that sense of isolation, different types go about finding their ways to escape that feeling, but the truth is everything happens right in whatever moment you are in. It doesn't matter if you are suffering. In that moment you are perfect and not suffering. I doesn't matter what is around the corner. Because in that moment you are right where you need to be. Its just a matter of listening with the internal ear to hear the internal voice. So, we are not abadoned or left orphans....no, no. We are loved - always.

Imagine a place of harmony, peace, tranquility, beauty, freedom, perhaps flight. Where everything makes sense -- THAT KIND OF EVERYTHING IS ALRIGHT SENSE. Like all the best ecstasies and raptures but sustainable. Truly....sustainable.

Did you go "New Age" on us?:D

Agreed with everything you said there that I bolded... very well put. Where did that come from?


Quote:The sense that you will be thoroughly denied during your lifetime. Because whoever you are and wherever you are here, things won't make sense. But there are always glimpses of where your headed. That is ALWAYS PROVIDED as a 100% guarantee.

When you sense this denial, that is the time you are not in the present moment that you spoke of earlier. Things won't make sense when you're not in the moment. When you are glimpsing the future, its making you forget the now, taking you away from the moment you spoke of.

If this moment that you talk about (that I understand) could happen constantly, right now, would that not be heaven on earth?

Why is "heaven" always thought of as after death?

If we could feel this now, we would enjoy life more, and not be worried about death, or not be so insecure about it at least.


See ya at the next blood ritual :biggrin:
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11-11-2007, 09:28 PM,
#69
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Quote:Did you go "New Age" on us?:D

No, don't think so:huh:

Quote:Agreed with everything you said there that I bolded... very well put. Where did that come from?

It is something that just flows out when deep in the moment.

* * *

The sense that you will be thoroughly denied during your lifetime. Because whoever you are and wherever you are here, things won't make sense. But there are always glimpses of where your headed. That is ALWAYS PROVIDED as a 100% guarantee.

* * *



Quote:When you sense this denial, that is the time you are not in the present moment that you spoke of earlier. Things won't make sense when you're not in the moment. When you are glimpsing the future, its making you forget the now, taking you away from the moment you spoke of.

That is true. When not deep in the moment is when the mind begins to sort data and see possibilities, and probabilities. This is also necessary for survival. I believe there is a necessity to have toggling between states as those processes are both necessary for survival. The difference is that anything occuring "out of the moment" will be uncomfortable. But suffering should not be feared because there is something more powerful that is always operative and in the moment is where that transcendance of suffering occurs.

Quote:If this moment that you talk about (that I understand) could happen constantly, right now, would that not be heaven on earth?

No, I don't believe that that sustainability is achieved until one acquires the resurected body.

Quote:Why is "heaven" always thought of as after death?

As I believe it to be, it occurs after the soul vacates the physical body.

Quote:If we could feel this now, we would enjoy life more, and not be worried about death, or not be so insecure about it at least.

Being in the moment is the secret to transcending whatever is occuring that may be perceived as harsh or nonsensical during the long journey on earth that is actually fleeting when that time is viewed retrospectively.

* * *

Love is letting go of fear they say. This is true. I was on retreat once (Catholic Charismatic) and the priest guided a group of about 150 people back to their earliest rememberance to all the people they had perceived hurt them and who they had not forgiven. So, it was going back in thought to various ages. What happened at age 5?, 6?, 7?..... And reexperiencing what came to mind and forgiving each person that came to mind. It was very cleansing and there probably wasn't any toilet paper left at the retreat house because everyone was so emo that they brought all the TP in from the restrooms.

Interestingly, all those people that I forgave, I never un-forgave. So, it was an extraordinary weekend, to say the least.

Now, it is many years later and there are a new collection of people that I have not forgiven. Perhaps someday, I will be able to forgive them too but somtimes the things that happen that did not make sense take a while to process. But, forgiveness is everything to being truly free.
Reply
11-11-2007, 11:05 PM,
#70
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
I am glad that there are things we can agree on here.:)


The only difference that we have is that I think "heaven on earth" is here now for <strike>anyone</strike> all life to see, life is always happening, transending, transforming, for eternity, in which death is a part.


Anyways, I like when you're deep in the moment. :love:
Reply
11-11-2007, 11:11 PM,
#71
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Just saw a movie on google for first time, Forming the Archetype, was very good, cant find a good quality download, or any download of it, anyone know where i can get. Thanks.

Theres 2 parts.
Reply
11-12-2007, 01:09 AM,
#72
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Quote:I am glad that there are things we can agree on here.:)


The only difference that we have is that I think "heaven on earth" is here now for anyone all life to see, life is always happening, transending, transforming, for eternity, in which death is a part.


Anyways, I like when you're deep in the moment.

:cool: and :love:
Reply
11-12-2007, 05:36 AM,
#73
Why are Christians so insecure?, The Secret
Quote:
Quote:Is this two separate beings ? I don't know. One things for sure, this "Yahweh " biblically speaking, can get very vengeful

I think the entire message is consistent throughout but the OT is very graphic about it. That message being that this life we experience now is very fleeting. We all live in a fallen world. .....
Kind of wish that I didn't write that now, but OT is a scary book.


This violent god and this violent universe -

In earlier times man worshipped heavenly bodies as gods. These gods were visible powers, often capricious, and frequently violent.
From what I've read Earth’s early history, was exceedingly violent, with frequent catastrophic bombardments by asteroids not letting up until about four billion years ago. The universe is violent, with stellar events like ring nebulae formation, novae and supernovae.

Yet, so amazing



[Image: n19.jpg]
Credit: NASA/CXC/UIUC/R.Williams et al.; Optical: NOAO/CTIO/MCELS coll.; Radio: ATCA/UIUC/R.Williams et al.




Coronet Cluster
[Image: coronet.jpg]
Credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/CfA/J.Forbrich et al.; Infrared: NASA/SSC/CfA/IRAC GTO Team




A spiral galaxy about 25 million light years from Earth, also known as M106.
[Image: ngc4258_comp.jpg]
Credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/Univ. of Maryland/A.S. Wilson et al.; Optical: Pal.Obs. DSS; IR: NASA/JPL-Caltech; VLA: NRAO/AUI/NSF




A ring galaxy 400 million light years from Earth.
[Image: cartwheel.jpg]
Credit: Composite: NASA/JPL/Caltech/P.Appleton et al. X-ray: NASA/CXC/A.Wolter & G.Trinchieri et al.




A planetary nebula about 3,000 light years from Earth.
[Image: pne.jpg]
Credit: Credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/RIT/J.Kastner et al.; Optical/IR: BD +30 & Hen 3: NASA/STScI/Univ. MD/J.P.Harrington; NGC 7027: NASA/STScI/Caltech/J.Westphal & W.Latter; Mz 3: NASA/STScI/Univ. Washington/B.Balick




A young supernova remnant 20,000 light years from Earth, in the constellation Centaurus.
[Image: g292.jpg]
Credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/Penn State/S.Park et al.; Optical: Pal.Obs. DSS





A supernova remnant believed to be the remains of a massive star that exploded over 300 years ago.
This extraordinarily deep Chandra image shows Cassiopeia A (Cas A, for short), the youngest supernova remnant in the Milky Way.
[Image: casa.jpg]
Credit: NASA/CXC/MIT/UMass Amherst/M.D.Stage et al.
&Alice laughed, &There's no use trying,& she said: &one can't believe impossible things.& &I daresay you haven't had much practice,& said the Queen. &When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.&
- Lewis Carroll

&Things are seldom as they seem ... Skim milk masquerades as cream.&
- Gilbert and Sullivan (Pinafore)

At NASA, it really is rocket science, and the decision makers really are rocket scientists.
But a body of research that is getting more and more attention points to the ways that smart people working collectively can be dumber than the sum of their parts. .. Irwin Janis? &Groupthink:& is a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' striving for unanimity override realistic appraisals ? It is the triumph of concurrence over good sense, and authority over expertise.&
-John Schwartz & Matthew L. Wade
Reply


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