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Question(s) for Muslims
02-12-2008, 03:34 AM,
#1
Question(s) for Muslims
Hey all,

I was just posing this question because I've noticed there are quite a few perceptions going around about Muslims and Muslim "extremists" and I was curious what the truth about the matter is.

For example, the forty virgins thing. Is there any credibility to the oft-proclaimed motivation that a martyr receives virgins in heaven? Can a radical Islamic zealot, interpretting the Koran correctly, expect to be rewarded for a suicide bombing, for real? I've always considered it a false claim of propaganda but I could be wrong.

Basically that was the only question I had I guess, but I basically would like someone educated in the Islamic religion to take a moment and clear my head of any bullshit that may have seeped in there through growing up under the US media whitewash.

I'd appreciate it,
Peace,
666
&We grow to recognize form. We grow to label that form. In doing so, do we become more intelligent? Do we become more awakened?& - Siji Tzu 四季子
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02-12-2008, 05:41 PM,
#2
Question(s) for Muslims
I thought it was 72 virgins?

At my age, I'd settle for one.
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02-12-2008, 10:03 PM,
#3
Question(s) for Muslims
Always thought it a bit strange blowing people up just to get to heaven and all those virgins.
Shirley it is easier to get massive loans(companys are throwing them at you)head out to Bangcock,
and buy all the virgins you need i'm sure it will feel like heaven.
And less painful,go back home and declare youself bankrupt.
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02-13-2008, 03:00 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-13-2008, 03:50 AM by mastermg.)
#4
Question(s) for Muslims
I guess it has to do with your intensions. With suicide, Allah (SWT) says
"O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).
However, suicide bombing is under controversy. Many leaders in Islam say its haram, or forbidden because you are killing yourself, but many others believe its ok if you are bombing because your country is being oppressed and are fighting for Islam.
The virgins thing, well if you end up going to paradise for any reason, you will get ladies, or Al Hoor Al ain, created directly from Allah, meaning not from Adam. If your married, your wife will be even more beautiful. The number of wives you get is unknown and in each higher level of paradise will get you more women and more beauty.

I hope I answered your question.
[Image: Palestinian_Dawn_by_Palestinian_Pride.jpg]
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02-13-2008, 04:20 AM,
#5
Question(s) for Muslims
IMHO,
According to islam if you go to heaven you will get the virgins and lots of other material rewards, (although the number 72 comes from a weak hadith i think), essentially there is no guarantee you will get to heaven unless you are martyred, the definition of this varied during time, at the beginning it meant dying on the battlefield fighting for allah and over time the definition expanded to include other things not related to warfae, some fundamentalists say that the original definition is the only correct one or at least the only one where there is no doubt.
But islam also say suicide is of one of the greatest sins,I guess they don't talk about this during the brainwashing of the future suicide bombers, anyway there is no definitive answer on suicide bombing, every one interpret it according to their agenda.
&To be GOVERNED is to be kept in sight, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so...& - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

&In the Middle Ages, they took the name of serfs; nowadays, they are called wage earners.& Mikhail Bakunin
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02-13-2008, 06:05 AM,
#6
Question(s) for Muslims
I thought islam taught that Al-Qiyamah must occur first.

Allah must judge the dead before he allows anyone into Jannah.
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02-13-2008, 08:36 PM,
#7
Question(s) for Muslims
Quote:I thought islam taught that Al-Qiyamah must occur first.

Allah must judge the dead before he allows anyone into Jannah.

Indeed, islam says the dead will be resurected on judgement day ( Al-Qiyamah ), until then the soul stays in the grave in a state they call barzakh.
&To be GOVERNED is to be kept in sight, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so...& - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

&In the Middle Ages, they took the name of serfs; nowadays, they are called wage earners.& Mikhail Bakunin
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02-13-2008, 09:56 PM,
#8
Question(s) for Muslims
Quote:
Quote:I thought islam taught that Al-Qiyamah must occur first.

Allah must judge the dead before he allows anyone into Jannah.

Indeed, islam says the dead will be resurected on judgement day ( Al-Qiyamah ), until then the soul stays in the grave in a state they call barzakh.
Well that is fascinating. Kind of sucks in a way. Thanks for all the input. I must say it is a little depressing. Not quite what I expected. But I suppose on the other hand it is. It was/is a medieval document I guess. There's a saying in the Phillipines, "fish get hooked by mouth, men get hooked by words" or there abouts. I think it applies.

Peace.
&We grow to recognize form. We grow to label that form. In doing so, do we become more intelligent? Do we become more awakened?& - Siji Tzu 四季子
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02-14-2008, 05:48 AM,
#9
Question(s) for Muslims
Quote:Indeed, islam says the dead will be resurected on judgement day ( Al-Qiyamah ), until then the soul stays in the grave in a state they call barzakh.

Could that be reasonably be compared to the Catholic pergatory?
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02-14-2008, 07:32 AM,
#10
Question(s) for Muslims
Quote:But islam also say suicide is of one of the greatest sins,I guess they don't talk about this during the brainwashing of the future suicide bombers, anyway there is no definitive answer on suicide bombing, every one interpret it according to their agenda.

Like all organized religion has always done.
*sigh* :sad:
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88.255.90.0/24 and 88.255.94.0/24 - Abdallah Internet Hizmetleri/RBN nazi's
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02-14-2008, 11:05 AM,
#11
Question(s) for Muslims
Quote:the forty virgins thing
After physical death, the soul has to pass through another dimension known as "purgatory" or "Burzukh". As per my knowledge and understanding, there are no virgins there:) and everyone experiences his/her own 'state' of paradise or hell.

After the day of the judgment, the real paradise and the real hell shall be assigned. Maybe there one can have dozens of women.

I believe this is true as in those dimensions, you can create things depending on the imagination you have. Also, one who will experience the state of hell, will be in 'repeat' mode. I suppose this 'repeat' mode is also applicable in the paradise.

God knows best!
Salem Kirban quotes Weishaupt gloating over his successes in a letter to Illuminatus Cato:

The most admirable thing of all is that great Protestant and reformed theologians [Lutherans and Calvinists] who belong to our Order really believe they see in it the true and genuine mind of the Christian religion. Oh man, what can not you be brought to believe?

These people swell our numbers and fill our treasury; get busy and make these people nibble at our bait.. .but do not tell them our secrets. They must be made to believe that the low degree that they have reached is the highest
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02-14-2008, 09:23 PM,
#12
Question(s) for Muslims
Quote:Could that be reasonably be compared to the Catholic pergatory?

Not exactly, basically it's just a waiting place, when judgement day comes, the believers who their sins outwheight their good deeds will be sent temporarly to hell, while the others will stay there permenantly, that would be the equivalent of pergatory.
&To be GOVERNED is to be kept in sight, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so...& - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

&In the Middle Ages, they took the name of serfs; nowadays, they are called wage earners.& Mikhail Bakunin
Reply
02-23-2008, 08:25 PM,
#13
Question(s) for Muslims
Quote:Hey all,

I was just posing this question because I've noticed there are quite a few perceptions going around about Muslims and Muslim "extremists" and I was curious what the truth about the matter is.

For example, the forty virgins thing. Is there any credibility to the oft-proclaimed motivation that a martyr receives virgins in heaven? Can a radical Islamic zealot, interpretting the Koran correctly, expect to be rewarded for a suicide bombing, for real? I've always considered it a false claim of propaganda but I could be wrong.

Basically that was the only question I had I guess, but I basically would like someone educated in the Islamic religion to take a moment and clear my head of any bullshit that may have seeped in there through growing up under the US media whitewash.

I'd appreciate it,
Peace,
666
There's no reward for suicide in Islam or any monothiestic faith I'm aware of and like all the other two, is a pretty serious sin. In Islam, it's pretty much considered a one way ticket to hell, not heaven.
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02-23-2008, 08:33 PM,
#14
Question(s) for Muslims
@ TripleSix: To add to your understanding of this baseless accusation against Islam, the whole 72 virgins myth is based on a 'weak Hadith' which is:

Sunan al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2562 says:

The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: “The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana’a [Yemen]”

And here's a post I made in another thread regarding the credibility of 'Hadith' to begin with:

Conspiracy Central Forums > Discussion & Debate > Religion and Occult > Strange site be ex-muslim, $50,000 reward for someone proving he is wrong.
Quote:
Quote:From a quick scanning, it's very well researched with sources being mostly either hadith or quran, even if you stick strictly with those two and discard everything else, it wouldn't change mush.
I'm not going to waste my time defending religion or attempting to debunk an entire website, I deal with enough nonsense, ignorance and bigotry as it is in the post 9-11 world, especially down here in Texas. But just a quick note, Hadith aren't exactly a reliable source for any agrument for or against Islam. The most "authentic" collection regarded highly by many Sunnis (majority of Muslims), is hardly a credible source. The scholar responsible for compiling it, Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari, for one was born 178 years after Muhammad's death. What is laughably called the "science" governing his methodology of Hadith compliation was basically travelling around the Middle East and inscribing what people claimed to be quotes from the Prophet, passed down via oral tradition, and he supposedly had access to biographies of all the people in the chain of narration. Wow, how incredibly rigerous, credible, and not to mention "scientific" lol. Once Bukhari got done discarding literally tens of thousands (actually it's in the hundred thousands) what he considered to be obvious fabrications and not authentic hadith, the revised version wasn't exactly something he put a lot of stock in eigther. During his travels when he arrived in what is now called Uzbekhistan (just south of Borat's home town lol), the Sultan of Bukhara, Khalid Ibn al-Ahmad Dhuhali, requested a personal meeting with Bukhari. Bukhari opinion of this narrowed down and revised list of hadith was that probably less than 5 % of these were actually authetic and accurate saying of Prophet Muhammad. The Sultan basically asked Bukhari if he could alter some of the hadith. Gee, I wonder where he was going with that? Hmm... let's see, he is a Sultan, he's got all the power he could have in the region, a little bit of alterations to Bukhari's narrowed down list certainly wouldn't hurt in that department. Bukhair refused this request and was subsequently banished, imprisoned, and died a bit over a month later. That should tell you a little something about the authenticity of "Sahih Al-Bukhari." Majority of muslims, virtually all Sunnis, and even Shi'ia, aren't even aware of simple historical facts like this, even so called "Islamic Scholars." The last few years of Bukhari dead are basically glossed over in most Sunni historical texts and most don't even bother offer a biography longer than a few pages on the guy's life. You honestly expect such an intellectually honest and dedicated bunch to debunk a site, that to begin with relies heavily on Sunnah to basically slander Islam and propogate a twisted and historically inaccurate perspective that only increases resentment and hatred towards Muslims where the audience is largely Westerners who don't really know much about Islam or Islamic history to begin with? LOL, dude, I know you're not fond of religion (and I don't blame you to be honest), but might I date recomment taking this slanderous nonsense with a grain of salt. Oh btw, as Hans Olo already pointed out, I don't find the sites authors position on US foreign policy in the Middle East and NeoCon "peacekeeping" veiws to be a surprise eigther btw. NtCkEr, does that still sound like a stawman? Eigther way, I'm not wasting more time on this garbage. There's a reason I don't venture in the religion section of this forum much, because bullshit like this isn't only infuriating and depressing to see, but seeing it being uncritically lapped up with out any research by fellow ConCeners is far more disheartening. Like I said, I deal with enough bullshit in real life as it is, which didn't really exist pre-9-11. So I generally avoid these type of distractions, that only serves to be devisive. BTW, I hope you guys realize I'm not attacking anyone on this forum personally, but you can't expect twisted proganda tarring an entire religion and people to not piss me off to some degree. Just a small note, you can take any religious text, quote it out of context, and make it appear quite ruthless, barbaric, and primitive. I'll leave it at that.

EDIT: If the guy makes the reward for debunking his site a mill or over, it might be worth the effort to throughly debunk with meticulously sourced references Quranic and historical references. I'll be able to pay my student loans and get out of debt that way lol :tongue:.
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02-23-2008, 09:51 PM,
#15
Question(s) for Muslims
Quote:Majority of muslims, virtually all Sunnis, and even Shi'ia, aren't even aware of simple historical facts like this, even so called "Islamic Scholars."
You are absolutely right. Its incredible these days that they call anyone with a Ph.D in Islamic history a "scholar". Maybe 85% of those scholars don't know how to analyze the Quran properly.
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