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Women rights in Islam
03-04-2008, 12:54 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-04-2008, 12:56 AM by shZ.)
#46
Women rights in Islam
BTW, I apologize for calling you a "dick" in the other thread. I just realized that you genuinly do [or did] think their interpteration [i.e. along the line of illiterate Mullahs, cultural practices perceived as religion, and insane Wahabi perspectives] are the only one.

EDIT: I just find it a bit shocking that you, a seemingly intelligent and articulate guy, would think that.:confused:
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03-04-2008, 01:17 AM,
#47
Women rights in Islam
Quote:Like you're already aware in most likely hood, majority of these said "scholars" aren't exactly the most literate people in the world and these Mullah that dominate organized religion usually have minimal to no education, and on enough occasions are pretty darn nutty.

You're right but you can't deny Islam saw the best scholars, and they didn't thought that all hadiths are to be throwed away, the reinterpreted quran only folks are a very recent development emanating from the contradictions of those archaic texts and modern society.

Quote:I wouldn't confuse backwards cultural practices, cultural takes and cutoms largely distorted and warped by the whole colonial experience, CIA or Zionist funded sects like the Wahabis, or only interpretation in very different times in a very different society to be any sort of difinitive word on religion.

Are you saying that the moral values thought in Islam are relative to their time and are not universal ?
or that prophet might have followed wrongly god's command ?
When I say Islam, it should be understood as what the 2 main sects are saying which makes up 99% of muslims.

Quote:You're entitled to your own opinion and take on religion in general and any specific religion ofcourse, but don't confuse a/the religion with a distorted version of it. Plus, it's not like most Muslims in these countries are nuts like the Mullahs or militant groups who violate the basis tenents of legitimate resistance.

In case I didn't make myself clear: I never judge people by their ideologies or opinions, for me a religion that requires you to believe is asking you to give up your responsability and I hate self-righteousness. Unless you are in saudi arabia or iran or somthing like that, it's not that bad because ethics are universal and they slowly stopped those barbaric punishements, most muslim countries are now in between modernity and conservatism.
&To be GOVERNED is to be kept in sight, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so...& - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

&In the Middle Ages, they took the name of serfs; nowadays, they are called wage earners.& Mikhail Bakunin
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03-04-2008, 01:30 AM,
#48
Women rights in Islam
Quote:BTW, I apologize for calling you a "dick" in the other thread. I just realized that you genuinly do [or did] think their interpteration [i.e. along the line of illiterate Mullahs, cultural practices perceived as religion, and insane Wahabi perspectives] are the only one.

EDIT: I just find it a bit shocking that you, a seemingly intelligent and articulate guy, would think that.:confused:

I didn't say those interpretations are the only ones, just the new one is too hypocritcal and deceiving for my taste not to mention it also comes with the same banner "we are the only REAL interpretation", although it's with a good intention. I probably deserved to be called names, I admit it was my fault for reacting the way I did and I apologies.
&To be GOVERNED is to be kept in sight, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so...& - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

&In the Middle Ages, they took the name of serfs; nowadays, they are called wage earners.& Mikhail Bakunin
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03-04-2008, 01:59 AM,
#49
Women rights in Islam
Quote:You're right but you can't deny Islam saw the best scholars, and they didn't thought that all hadiths are to be throwed away, the reinterpreted quran only folks are a very recent development emanating from the contradictions of those archaic texts and modern society.
These 'hadith' are pretty much next to useless, that's correct. Assuming one believes in God (and accepts Muhammad as the last messener), you don't need anything more than the Quran. That would imply that God messed up big time with his last and final message, and was probably really high during the whole process... "uh.." * puff * *puff * "...dude, what was that verse I meant to put in that book again?" Doesn't sound like a God any relatively intelligent person would believe in does it :biggrin: :tongue: ? On a more serious note, yes. I consider most hadith to be utter bullshit and the methodology of their collection and preservation is incredibly questionable to say the least. My brother, when he was alive, actually went throught the trouble of comparing different publication of Sahih Bukhari published in different years (literally only decades apart) and there were several inconsistencies and alterations there. Since I didn't do this research and he's no longer in this world, I can't really present it to you on the spot to say the least... but you could cetainly validate it for yourself if you're so inclined.
Quote:Are you saying that the moral values thought in Islam are relative to their time and are not universal ?
or that prophet might have followed wrongly god's command ?
When I say Islam, it should be understood as what the 2 main sects are saying which makes up 99% of muslims.
I'm not saying the moral values aren't universal, what I'm saying is many of them are culturally ingrained, extreme interpretations (with out relevance to the Surah of Quran as a whole, or the histrocial context of the revelation), and static with respect to social conditions and time period.
Quote:In case I didn't make myself clear: I never judge people by their ideologies or opinions, for me a religion that requires you to believe is asking you to give up your responsability and I hate self-righteousness. Unless you are in saudi arabia or iran or somthing like that, it's not that bad because ethics are universal and they slowly stopped those barbaric punishements, most muslim countries are now in between modernity and conservatism.
As strange as you might find it, for me it's the exact opposite :biggrin:. It's all about responsibility, compasion, patience, mercy and all that. Think about the number of times some retarded angry Mullah will quote verses completely out of context and preach to the masses, painting a quite different picture, while never once mentioning the numerous times Allah encourages and recomments mercy, forgiveness, and compassion. Things most people do take issue with (as I myself once did), like the whole adultery and other stuff, if pretty much next to impossible to enfore, unless you're having sex in public (which fortunately most people don't lol).

Again, I don't equate the state or it's enforcement of what it calls Islamic Law or Shariah with religion whatsoever, because it's generally contradicting it all the time. As far as amputating hands go, it isn't mentioned once, anywhere, in the Quran. Particular penalties, the really harsh ones like that which have no Quranic basis, were relevant to the higly decadent time period when Arabs were a very tribal and war like people. Otherwise it should have atleast been included in the Quran, unless God was smoking pot again :laugh:.
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03-04-2008, 08:21 AM,
#50
Women rights in Islam
Quote:These 'hadith' are pretty much next to useless, that's correct. Assuming one believes in God (and accepts Muhammad as the last messener), you don't need anything more than the Quran. That would imply that God messed up big time with his last and final message, and was probably really high during the whole process... "uh.." * puff * *puff * "...dude, what was that verse I meant to put in that book again?" Doesn't sound like a God any relatively intelligent person would believe in does it :biggrin: :tongue: ? On a more serious note, yes. I consider most hadith to be utter bullshit and the methodology of their collection and preservation is incredibly questionable to say the least. My brother, when he was alive, actually went throught the trouble of comparing different publication of Sahih Bukhari published in different years (literally only decades apart) and there were several inconsistencies and alterations there. Since I didn't do this research and he's no longer in this world, I can't really present it to you on the spot to say the least... but you could cetainly validate it for yourself if you're so inclined.

Some hadiths sure look fake specially those boasting the prophet qualities, but when you know flogging is mentioned in the quran for exemple, and you find that the prophet applyed that, isn't it resonnable to think this is true ?
And all those hadiths were considered as athentic at the time, otherwise they would have been dismissed with the other 'fake' and 'weak' ones,can you imagine bukhari deviating from the fresh Islam in the middle of the islamic nation ? Some hadiths might seem obviously impossible because you are reading your modern understanding into them, but for a society of their time I'm sure they thought it was real.

Quote:As strange as you might find it, for me it's the exact opposite :biggrin:. It's all about responsibility, compasion, patience, mercy and all that. Think about the number of times some retarded angry Mullah will quote verses completely out of context and preach to the masses, painting a quite different picture, while never once mentioning the numerous times Allah encourages and recomments mercy, forgiveness, and compassion. Things most people do take issue with (as I myself once did), like the whole adultery and other stuff, if pretty much next to impossible to enfore, unless you're having sex in public (which fortunately most people don't lol).

Actually I was think in terms of spiritual responsibility, when you put the a label on yourself you become a slave of it, you'll have to follow those questionnable core teachings to keep that label, there is no certainty or security in religion, you can't be sure how that holy book got to you, who made it, edited it or printed it.
It's irrelevent if a punishement is applyed or not, it's the fact that a "merciful" god would consider them in the first place, you surely find absurd the notion you'll have to play hide and seek with enforcement ? it seem to me it makes a lot of sense if viewed from the POV of the people of the time.

Quote:Again, I don't equate the state or it's enforcement of what it calls Islamic Law or Shariah with religion whatsoever, because it's generally contradicting it all the time. As far as amputating hands go, it isn't mentioned once, anywhere, in the Quran. Particular penalties, the really harsh ones like that which have no Quranic basis, were relevant to the higly decadent time period when Arabs were a very tribal and war like people. Otherwise it should have atleast been included in the Quran, unless God was smoking pot again :laugh:.

The quran does say literally to cut off hand(s) of thiefs according to shiah +sunni, any punishement recommended by god implies someone will have to make the decision if it's fit or not to be applyed, someone who surely is a human with private intrests and an ego, why would a god trust any human(s) to make the judgement ?.
And you are aware that everything written by men is fallible including the quran?
&To be GOVERNED is to be kept in sight, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so...& - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

&In the Middle Ages, they took the name of serfs; nowadays, they are called wage earners.& Mikhail Bakunin
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03-04-2008, 03:10 PM,
#51
Women rights in Islam
Quote:Their differences are historical and theological,

indeed

Quote:they don't reinterpret verses like you do

obviously, and look at the result where they live. both groups btw.

Quote:and exept those danger zones where there is tensions, muslims don't care for the differences.

thats is blatantly untrue, there is MASSIVE racism within islam, both on theology and plain old racism where eg. afghanis generally doesnt like pakistanis, who in return dont like solmalis much that doesnt like and so on and so forth. YOu can be damn sure they care!

How many mixed sunni/shiah marrages do you know of? i know a single one, and they are frowned upon by both their respective groups.


Quote:IMO they are all the same, your interpretation is certainly the most tolerant, but it's a new one and cut off from history

no its not new at all, and i allready told you why, which i can back up with non hadith sources from the time. Just because they chose to go astray does not at all reflect on us.

Quote:you have to ignore all mohammed's actions to be to say "here is the correct new meaning the others just misunderstood it".

like sunnis say that christians has done for 2000 years, that jews has done for 3000 years etc. So its actually possible. and what mohammads actions? the stories bukhari paid CASH MONEY for, that landed him several Bible passages with the name mohammad inserted? those actions descibed there, or do you have some code to tell the lies from the true stories in the hadith, beacuse i have no doubt they are there aswell. But please eblighten me, who do you sunnis tell the difference?

the chain of narrators? please!!!
Quote:Since both shiah and sunni agree on the meaning of the verses since beginning of islam

only they dont!

Quote:, minor differences in hadiths seem irrevelent to me

and shows that youre ignorant aswell. These are NOT minor differences in their theology nomatter how many times you state it, doesnt make it so. They are vastly different.

Quote:, for exemple both sunni and shiah agree your hand litteraly have to be cut off, they might disagree what circumstences and what part to amputate but they don't question the meaning of verse, a big difference also is that that you reject the WHOLE hadiths and sira which I don't think any muslim would accept that easly.

Yeah they agree on certain errors thats true, and its their problem (and their victims) not mine, not islams, not The quran...THEIRS as human beings doing ill thinking!


Quote:Finally just the concept that god might have allowed on purpose knowing they somehow would misunderstand their OWN language seem a bit too far to me and understandably other muslims.

So are you arguing that the arabic of today is the same as it was them and the Quran is written in modern arabic with modern arabic grammar, as that what youre saying?
It seen from a purely historical perspective took them 3oo years to turn a growing intellectualism presen t in the area to the deadwaters that still haunts them. So after his death, 2-300 years down the line something happened that changed everything, still seen from the historical perspective not a religious one.

what happened 2-300 years after his death that could make such a difference to the theology and understanding of it?
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03-04-2008, 03:12 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-04-2008, 07:21 PM by horseonwheels.)
#52
Women rights in Islam
Quote:And all those hadiths were considered as athentic at the time, otherwise they would have been dismissed with the other 'fake' and 'weak' ones

so the hashdith about piss drinking for cures, singing food, dancing trees and running rocks that were altso found "sahih" bukhari are thus true aswell by the same logic. damn it must have been hard to harvest dades back then when you have to catch and tie the palm first and accept that the food would sing you def when you finally catched it. Sounds like cartoon network to me to be honest.
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03-05-2008, 02:26 AM,
#53
Women rights in Islam
Quote:The quran does say literally to cut off hand(s) of thiefs according to shiah +sunni, any punishement recommended by god implies someone will have to make the decision if it's fit or not to be applyed, someone who surely is a human with private intrests and an ego, why would a god trust any human(s) to make the judgement ?.
And you are aware that everything written by men is fallible including the quran?
Quick response, you're actually right about that, if interpeted literally, which also doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So I take back part of what I said there and should have phrased it differently, as opposed to being misleading with my take on it.

5:38, "The male thief, and the female thief, you shall "eqta’u aydiyahuma" as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise."

'Eqta’u' means "cut" and 'aydiyahuma' refers to "the [three or more] hands of the male and female thief".

Depending on how literal one wants to get about it, you can't possible amputate three or more hands.

It makes less sense to interpret literally based on the verse directly following it:

5:39: "If one repents after committing this crime, and reforms, God redeems him. God is Forgiver, Merciful."

It a little hard to repent if you literally physically are unable to steal. Ofcourse, this has been enforced in a very literal sense during the Prophet's time, but it's also not as simple as that. For one thing, the victim has some discretion if a case and their perspective is something that is taken in to consideration, like the whole blood money thing for example. The point of blood money wasn't to minimize or soften a crime like murder, but to avoid generation tribal rivalry and bloodshed (which wasn't uncommon in those days). So you're left at the mercy of however it was you wronged, and of course, as is the case with any severe and harsh penalty, if it is to be enforced, there must be an overwhelming body of evidence and a clear indication of guilt with something irreversable in nature.
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