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Why do some truthers lie? - Printable Version

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Why do some truthers lie? - flamesong - 08-18-2012

I can't think of a better section in which to post this because I am sure that what I am going to say is going to piss somebody off - but it frustrates me and pisses me off that certain high profile 'truth' campaigners (who I will resist the temptation to name - at least for now) seem to lie with cynical indifference.

I'm not talking about them interpreting facts differently or simply not sharing my point of view, I'm talking about them making absolutely provable blatant false statements; the accuracy or otherwise of which I have checked. I never take anybody's word when I read or hear something peculiar and having run a news site, I would always check original sources before reposting anything.

It strikes me as curious, to say the least, and possibly suspicious that anybody with such a high profile would not be meticulous with their information - especially when the truth is fundamental to what they advocate.


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - CharliePrime - 08-18-2012

This many come as a surprise to you, but for the last seven or eight thousand years it has been known that deceiving other people can be an effective way to accumulate wealth and power.

Smile


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - flamesong - 08-18-2012

(08-18-2012, 04:02 PM)CharliePrime Wrote: ...deceiving other people can be an effective way to accumulate wealth and power.

Sure, I get that. But what is the point when it is so conspicuously hypocritical?

I can only assume that when certain individuals invite their listeners to go and check, they are confident of either their listeners' credulousness or laziness.


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - CharliePrime - 08-18-2012

(08-18-2012, 04:22 PM)flamesong Wrote: ...they are confident of either their listeners' credulousness or laziness.

Every successful grift absolutely depends on those two factors. They determine exactly how much conspicuous hypocrisy can be gotten away with.

Examples: People who don't check their credit card statements, People who put their retirement savings in the Stock Market, People who let strangers babysit their children.

Derren Brown is an English pop magician. Listen to these audiobooks where he teaches the science of hypnotizing people. It's all about building trust/authority with subtle repetitive suggestions.

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/4785085/Derren_Brown_Audiobooks_-_Hypnotism__Magic__and_Memory


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - flamesong - 08-18-2012

(08-18-2012, 05:24 PM)CharliePrime Wrote: Derren Brown is an English pop magician.

Are you British?

I've seen every one of Derren Brown's programmes and find it hard to believe (especially after his Manchurian Candidate episode) that the CT alternative media aren't beating a path to his door.

I actually have a first edition of the book which Derren Brown claims propelled him into his mentalist career, Ericksonian Approaches.

Anyway, maybe it's just me. I feel that lying is the most repugnant human trait; it is detestable in politicians but it is something we have come to expect in such vermin. But it saddens me that it is now regarded as acceptable behaviour.


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - zapoper7 - 08-18-2012

Why do some truthers lie?

Because their souls inhabit the human mammalian which lives in this crappy duality based plane of existence. LOL


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - Frank2 - 08-19-2012

LOL Zapoper nailed it :yes:


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - IanPotter - 08-19-2012

If anyone else is having trouble with the Derren Brown link that CharliePrime posted, you might try this one instead:

http://kat.ph/derren-brown-audiobooks-hypnotism-magic-and-memory-t2215352.html

(No reflection on you CP, but PBay has been blocked by enemy operatives in my sub-division of the global matrix)

In terms of the topic, I have nothing to add, other than I reject the term 'truther' for myself. Like zealot or disciple it seems to imply a collective enterprise and also suggests that there's a definitive body of truth out there upon which we can all be made to agree. Neither of these things are true it seems to me.


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - flamesong - 08-19-2012

@IanPotter

You could either use one of TPB proxies here:

http://about.piratereverse.info/proxy/list.html

Or edit your computer's hosts file; instructions on the above linked page.

As for the point you made about 'truthers', perhaps the truth does not exist as an empirical canon but it is, in my humble opinion, merely philosophical posturing to deny that there is definitive truth about all things - any deviation from that position is a matter of variation of concept, opinion or the limits of current knowledge. Is there intelligent life on other planets? Nobody knows but there either is or there isn't. Whether it is life as we know it or intelligent in the way that is generally understood or even on a planet in the same realm of dimensions with which we are familiar are all points of conjecture.

But this is all diversion.

A couple of weeks ago, I heard one eminent truther say of the Olympic opening ceremony that there was a shot of two women kissing which was flashed on the screen 'over and over again'. I watched the ceremony as it was broadcast and saw the offending kiss (which, incidentally, caused me no offence) which was on the screen for less than half a second. It was not flashed on the screen 'over and over again' as claimed. As it happened, I had downloaded the opening ceremony so that a friend of mine who had missed it could see it - so I had the chance to watch it again. The kiss is on screen once for less than half a second in a montage of famous film and television embraces - exactly as I had remembered.

This may seem trivial but it is only one example of the one individual's constant misrepresentation of the facts and unchallenged gives a false picture of reality and, in the same way that the official account of 9/11 entered the public consciousness. There are, without doubt, people listening to this person's broadcasts who hang on every word and as opposed to the economic obscenity of the Olympic games as I am, it should not be attacked with disinformation.

The correct response to lies is truth - not more lies.


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - ezekiel73 - 08-19-2012

Because truthers are people too and in some people the Ego is stronger than the lure of truth could ever be.


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - CharliePrime - 08-19-2012

(08-19-2012, 12:20 PM)flamesong Wrote: This may seem trivial but it is only one example of the one individual's constant misrepresentation of the facts

I empathize. In my opinion, presenters who claim to be "Truthers" should be held to a higher standard because they claim their standards are higher than "mainstream" media.

If regular hamburgers cost $6, but Fred sells hamburgers for $12 by advertising them as significantly superior, they better be superior hamburgers. Fred's customers did not set the higher standard. Fred did.

I believe James Corbett does a good job of this. http://corbettreport.com Whenever James speculates, he indicates that he is doing so. He always encourages listeners to independently verify his presentations.

(08-18-2012, 11:14 PM)flamesong Wrote: >Derren Brown is an English pop magician.

Are you British?[/quote]

No. I apologize if I used the English/British adjective wrong. I really don't know how to use those words properly. I'm Texan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson Interesting. Thanks. I intend to study NLP someday. Some say it's B.S., some say not. I admit, I've seen a lot of B.S. sold in corporate training rooms. I even slung my share of it. Made good money. HR managers only really care if the show is good, not so much the content.


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - flamesong - 08-19-2012

@CharliePrime

I only asked if you were British because of your awareness of Derren Brown. And I only said British because about half of Britain is not England and although Derren Brown is English, he will have been seen on televisions in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales just as much as in England.

There are plenty of people here who can't distinguish between Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) etc.

Incidentally, I am English and living in Scotland :-)


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - IanPotter - 08-19-2012

@ Flamesong - re: proxies. Indeed, but my client doesn't handle magnet links properly, and the PBay page I saw only linked to one of those and no torrent file, which is the real reason I had to find an alternative.

As for your unsolicited and unjust jibe about "philosophical posturing" I'd invite the reader to compare your post with mine and judge for themselves.

The thing is, I made two points: we are not a collective and there is no uniform body of truth waiting to reveal itself to such a collective.

Seems to me you ignored the first point and corrupted the latter for your own ends, which was pretty dishonest: but it's of no consequence to me since I'm not responsible for anyone else's journey (or ego) but my own.

PS: This'll cheer you up. It's a quote from Derren Brown:

"I am often dishonest in my techniques but I'm always honest about my dishonesty"

Wink


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - flamesong - 08-19-2012

(08-19-2012, 08:36 PM)IanPotter Wrote: As for your unsolicited and unjust jibe about "philosophical posturing"...

You said, 'Like zealot or disciple it seems to imply a collective enterprise and also suggests that there's a definitive body of truth out there upon which we can all be made to agree. Neither of these things are true it seems to me.'

And I replied, somewhat in agreement, 'perhaps the truth does not exist as an empirical canon'.

When I went on to say that, 'it is, in my humble opinion, merely philosophical posturing to deny that there is definitive truth about all things', that was not aimed at you. If anything, it was aimed at certain people from my past and their ilk who use such an argument to justify their own estrangement from honesty.

The points are not mutually exclusive. All the truth in the universe may not be embodied in a definitive artifact but that does not mean to say that there is not a truth (known or unknown) about all things. As I asked as an example, is there intelligent life on other planets? I don't know but there either is or there isn't. Just because nobody else nor I know does not mean that there isn't a truth about it.

I'm a bit surprised that you are permitted to make two points but I, it appears, am not.


RE: Why do some truthers lie? - IanPotter - 08-20-2012

I agree. Given enough time, resources and a tight definition we certainly could find the truth about whether a particular planet maintains intelligent life, or not.

However, while I'm no philosopher, it seems to me that here on this planet there are many debates which cannot be resolved (other than for oneself at a given point on one's own journey). For example, Hobbes says we're born bad, Marxists and anarchists suggest we're inherently good, while Locke says we're a blank slate with potential for either. Over the years I've believed all three perspectives to be 'true' at different times, but I refuse to accept that I was telling 'lies' at any point.

Much of what we know as 'truth' in the human realm is relative and conditional. I'm quite sure you see what I'm saying.

For sure, some of the peeps who do radio shows or articles and 'lie' (according to your definition, not mine) do it in the expectation of some kind of reward (whether tangible like cash or influence or some kind of ego trip), but I'd argue that there are probably a great many instances where the so-called liar actually believes what they are saying to be 'true'.

It's just how it is - and it saddens me a little that many in the, ahem, 'truth movement' are quick to stand in judgement of others when really, they'd do better to focus on developing their individual discernment (and no, to be clear, that's not a veiled insult, it's a broad generalization/observation).

Certainly for myself, I ENJOY listening to liars (by your definition), because for me, they are simply people with whom I have a fundamental disagreement about certain things. I'd give examples but unless you insist I'd rather not open that can of worms, so I'll just use the example of zionism. I'm not a zionist but I've learned a great deal from pro-zionist commentators. In fact, for me, I'd say that that's my main method of research into 'truth' (in the political, social or economic spheres). I listen to one side, I listen to the other and adopt a position based on the strength of arguments presented by each in relation to my original knowledge - while always reserving the right to change my mind next week. I think we must allow each other that freedom - and I think that that requires a greater awareness of the influence of one's own ego than would normally be developed and adopted in real life, mainly owing to the limitations of text-based methods of communication.

Anyway. That's more than enough pomposity from me. It's after midnight and I need a top-up on my beauty sleep. Not much though, because I'm nearly perfect as it is...

Wink

Peace.