ConCen
Conversion & Salvation - Printable Version

+- ConCen (https://concen.org/oldforum)
+-- Forum: Main (https://concen.org/oldforum/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Religion, New Age & The Occult (https://concen.org/oldforum/forum-21.html)
+--- Thread: Conversion & Salvation (/thread-27258.html)



Conversion & Salvation - Forbin - 10-23-2006

'For Wrote:Interesting DHammer. In all the churches I've attended, they're always preaching about how you can be saved instantly, and its purely a decision that you can make 'right now'. If you're up for it, I'd be interested in hearing your conversion experience, and what your definition of a Christian is.

'DHam Wrote:okay biggrin.gif

btw what the churches talk about is conversion. That is not when Christ enters your heart. That's regeneration (of what you might ask ? of the heart of course)
Okay, here's a nice new thread for us DHammer:)

I didn't realize that Christ entered the heart, I thought it was the Holy Spirit that did that (like in Acts)? Does this always happen at a specific time after conversion or is it fairly arbitrary? (i.e. it could be an hour, month, or decade)

If any other Christians want to post their understanding of conversion/salvation, I'd also be interested to hear them. (but please use plain english!)

Thx


Conversion & Salvation - DHammer - 10-23-2006

i'd name this topic conversion and regeneration, but the one you picked is also ok I guess :P

Quote:I didn't realize that Christ entered the heart, I thought it was the Holy Spirit that did that (like in Acts)?

Well here's what the sinner's prayer has to say, because this is the so called "official" way to get converted. This is what the false prophets teach (modern church):

“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”


That's a grave error people do. Jesus Christ does not come into your heart the second you finish that prayer. He simply doesn't. If that was to be true, then that would mean we had the SEED OF GOD within us, and the Bible says that who has the seed of God "SINNETH NOT". It's that plain and simple, pure English for everyone to understand. No man shall be able to pluck them from "Mine hand" says Christ.


Now if Christ were to come that instant to the believer , we would not have backsliders. Either that, or the Bible contradicts itself. How can that be ? Should we change the word of God to fit our interpretation ,or hear Him who is in the Heaven and listen to what He has to say ?

The Bible says that "the way which leadeth to life is NARROW and the gate is STRAIT". Now how in the world can that be !? Saying the sinner's prayer is EASY and NOT HARD AT ALL i.e. narrow. or strait. We are constantly warned in the Bible that if we do not search and wait for Him that is to come, He shall not tarry. If the sinner's prayer was the door trough which Christ would enter our hearts than the Bible would be a lie. There would be NO SEARCHING , no SEEKING for God, a thing which Jesus constantly asks from us "if ye shall stay in my word" "pick up your cross and follow me" "seek and ye shall find". People used to do this in the Old Testament also ! Search for God and His face !

As you plainly stated, conversion offers you the gifts of the Holy Spirit, more or less. Your life changes a little or a lot. Depends with each person. That is proof of conversion. Regeneration is a straight and narrow way apart from Conversion. Regeneration is the actual moment in which you reach this LIFE that is at the END of the way, NOT at the START of it. I mean it's really plain and clear , you can't twist this any other way.

Regeneration is the actual encounter with Jesus (!). It's a real and literal event that takes place, and it is then that a person is saved and sealed for eternity, for He has the seed of God within ! (cannot sin) Remember we were told that if we seek, Jesus says, "I shall come to you, and soup with you". Again and again He says He will come to the believer, but the false prophets say it has to do with the second advent.

what else do you wanna know ? :D


Conversion & Salvation - ov3rkomer - 10-23-2006

Quote:
'For Wrote:Interesting DHammer. In all the churches I've attended, they're always preaching about how you can be saved instantly, and its purely a decision that you can make 'right now'. If you're up for it, I'd be interested in hearing your conversion experience, and what your definition of a Christian is.
'DHam Wrote:btw what the churches talk about is conversion. That is not when Christ enters your heart. That's regeneration (of what you might ask ? of the heart of course)
I didn't realize that Christ entered the heart, I thought it was the Holy Spirit that did that (like in Acts)? Does this always happen at a specific time after conversion or is it fairly arbitrary? (i.e. it could be an hour, month, or decade)

If any other Christians want to post their understanding of conversion/salvation, I'd also be interested to hear them. (but please use plain english!)
The difference of understanding is basically between two different views. DHammer sees salvation(regeneration of the heart) as something that happens over time as a process after a long time of following the 'Narrow Path' (as taught uniquely by Stewart Best) Many religions teach that salvation comes at the end of a long process during which you can never be sure, if you are going to hell or not. Roman Catholicism and Mormonism are two of these.

I believe, that the Bible teaches, that salvation happens at the moment when a man comes into right relationship with God through repentance and faith in the Jesus Christ receiving Him as Lord and Saviour. Let us see what Jesus says about salvation:
<blockquote>Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life. (Joh 5:24)
</blockquote>There is a moment when someone who believes passes from death to life: After hearing the Word of Jesus, then believing/trusting in the Father.
<blockquote>
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed within himself in this way: God, I thank You that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-collector. I fast twice on the Sabbath, I give tithes of all that I possess. And standing afar off, the tax-collector would not even lift up his eyes to Heaven, but struck on his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner! I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [saved] rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself shall be abased, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted. (Luk 18:10-14)
</blockquote>The tax collector was saved at that moment, he went home justified. -- Just praying any kind of prayer with the wrong heart attitude (like the Pharisee) will not save anyone. You cannot deceive God: it is not just praying the right words or a 'sinners prayer' that saves. You have to respond humbly with openness to the drawing and convicting of the Holy Spirit and call on the Lord Jesus Christ from a position of need.
<blockquote>
And one of the hanged criminals blasphemed Him, saying, If you are Christ, save Yourself and us. But answering, the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, since you are in the same condemnation. And we indeed justly so, for we receive the due reward of our deeds, but this Man has done nothing amiss. And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luk 23:39-43)
</blockquote>The second criminal realized that he was justly condemned, he was convinced of his sin. He called Jesus Lord, which displayed his faith. His salvation was accomplished at that moment.
<blockquote>I know a man in Christ fourteen years before (whether in the body, I do not know; or outside of the body, I do not know; God knows) such a one was caught up to the third Heaven. And I know such a man (whether in the body, or outside of the body, I do not know; God knows), that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to utter. (2Co 12:2-4)
</blockquote>In case there is a confusion about Paradise and Heaven: Paul essentially treats both words interchangably.
<blockquote>
And one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And going into the Pharisee's house, He reclined. And behold, a woman, a sinner in the city, knowing that He reclined in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster vial of ointment. And she stood behind Him, weeping at His feet, and she began to wash His feet with tears and wipe them with the hair of her head. And she ardently kissed His feet and anointed them with the ointment. But seeing this, the Pharisee who had invited Him, spoke within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what kind of woman this is who touches him, for she is a sinner. And answering, Jesus said to him, Simon, I have something to say to you. And he said, Teacher, speak. There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. The one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. And they having nothing to pay, he freely forgave both. Then which of them do you say will love him most? And answering, Simon said, I suppose that one to whom he forgave most. And He said to him, You have judged rightly. And He turned to the woman and said to Simon, Do you see this woman? I entered into your house, yet you gave Me no water for My feet. But she has washed My feet with tears, and has wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with ointment. Therefore I say to you, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, he loves little. And He said to her, Your sins are forgiven. And those reclining with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins? And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace. (Luk 7:36-50)
</blockquote>The woman who was a repentant prostitute was saved at the moment when she put her trust in Jesus Christ. 'Your faith has saved you.' She realized, that she was forgiven much. Thats why she loved Jesus much and expressed this in her tears of repentance and kissing his feet, which was an act of worship unto Jesus Christ as her Lord.

These passages show clearly, that salvation happens at an instant. The Bible uses many terms for salvation, which express this point at which someone passes from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive: Being born again or born from above, passing from darkness into light, from death to eternal life.

When my son was born there was a moment when he came out and started breathing. There was that breath of life when he started crying, when I knew he had made it. A time of growth comes after, which is called discipleship in the Bible; and is not optional. We are to make disciples not just converts. Even before a person responds to Jesus there may have been a long period of softening or breaking the heart, like what happened to Paul the Apostle. (Acts Ch. 7-9) His heart was pricked when he was involved in the murder of Stephen. Sometime later he was confronted by Jesus, when he finally humbled himself.

Some articles for further reading:
How is a Man Saved? and How We KNOW We are Saved
The Second Birth


Conversion &amp; Salvation - DHammer - 10-23-2006

I don't wanna quote and contradict you just for the sake of doing it ; I wanna clarify some things.

Quote:DHammer sees salvation(regeneration of the heart) as something that happens over time as a process after a long time of following the 'Narrow Path'

The regeneration of the heart itself is instantaneous. The process that leads you there however is long and "narrow" as Jesus put it.
Quote:as taught uniquely by Stewart Best

This isn't about Stewart Best, or Alex Jones, or me , or you , or anyone else. This is about the Bible and what it has to say. So please don't drag this man into a conversation where he can't defend himself.

The doctrine of the narrow way is ALSO taught by the man who wrote the Pilgrim's progress himself, more or less, a book that is praised by the modern evangelists of today ! This isn't anything new my friend ! It might be to you or some other people.
Quote:Many religions teach that salvation comes at the end of a long process during which you can never be sure, if you are going to hell or not.
Well this is different. Jesus clearly states that if we walk the way, HE WILL KEEP us alive. We will not die on it if we OBEY Him, i.e. go to hell. In other words once you start walking, you`re kind of hell-safe (if you stay on the way).

Quote:Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life. (Joh 5:24)
INDEED that is EXACTLY what He said. Nothing more nothing less. Do you believe ? HOW CAN YOU ? The "carnal mind is enmity towards God" ! The heart is desperately wicked ! How can you posibly BELIEVE in GOD deep down ?
what enmity is this that the Bible talks about in Ephesians 2:16

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


What difference is there between you and satan. Both of you believe in God. How do you define belief. The very thought that you have in your head and says " God is real" ? I myself sometimes have thoughts such as " no God" . Just like that. Two words. Acording to you, if I were to die that second I'd burn in hell forever. How can that POSSIBLY be ? And don't tell me you NEVER had a thought such as that. Cause it's not true. The Bible says it man, not me ! (the carnal mind is enmity towards God" .

If one was truly a believer, he would DO as commanded. Claiming you believe and then going to smoke pot is so hypocritical there are no words to describe it.
Quote:The tax collector was saved at that moment, he went home justified.

No he didn't. You just perverted Scripture in front of us all. We cought you red handed :P
Seriously you have no proof that this was the salvation process itself. Maybe the man was ALREADY saved, and got justified for a certain deed. Remember that we are justified by Christ alone. NOT our works.

Quote:And one of the hanged criminals blasphemed Him, saying, If you are Christ, save Yourself and us. But answering, the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, since you are in the same condemnation. And we indeed justly so, for we receive the due reward of our deeds, but this Man has done nothing amiss. And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luk 23:39-43)

I expected someone to quote to me the thief on the cross dying. I've been waiting for this almost a year :P. It's a good question but not hard to answer.
In order for Jesus to come to the believer and give him God's love, He must have died. Was Jesus dead when He talked to the thief ? NO ! The old law still applied to Him. When Jesus was glorified and sent up to Heaven, THEN was the new covenant established. THEN was the human race bought by the blood of the Lamb.

And yes, I also believe that Paradise = Heaven.

Quote:The woman who was a repentant prostitute was saved at the moment when she put her trust in Jesus Christ. 'Your faith has saved you.' She realized, that she was forgiven much. Thats why she loved Jesus much and expressed this in her tears of repentance and kissing his feet, which was an act of worship unto Jesus Christ as her Lord.
Yes sir, I am in no way arguing that the woman was not saved. Does Jesus say she was? yes ! THEN SHE WAS ! It's not a question whether she was saved or not, but rather, what law applied to her in that moment. The old law of course, how in the world could Jesus descend from Heaven and give her God's love (new covenant) if Jesus was alive in FLESH ? He couldn't YET.


Quote:These passages show clearly, that salvation happens at an instant.
not really. It can under the old law of salvation.
Quote:There was that breath of life when he started crying, when I knew he had made it.

yes , he made it, conversion complete.


Conversion &amp; Salvation - ov3rkomer - 10-23-2006

You are replying quite quickly:); this reply concerns your previous post...
Quote:Well here's what the sinner's prayer has to say, because this is the so called "official" way to get converted. This is what the false prophets teach (modern church):

"Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen."


That's a grave error people do. Jesus Christ does not come into your heart the second you finish that prayer. He simply doesn't
I gave some biblical examples in my previous post, which show that people were saved at the moment of 'saving faith' in their heart. How do I know they were saved? Because Jesus said so! If Jesus said it, that settles it for me. None of them prayed the 'sinners prayer' given above. (The 'sinners prayer' is a rather recent and problematic invention, which is not found as a method in the Bible.) The words are not as important as the heart attitude. If someone has been convicted by the Spirit of God and cries out to God or asks as the people in the book of Acts 'What shall we do [to be saved]?' they are ready to receive and will find the right words in responding to God. Peter's instruction was simple: 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' (Acts 2)

I agree with you only in one aspect of this, which is the unbiblical use of techniques such as a 'sinners prayer' as a shortcut to leading people into a saving faith in Jesus Christ. Often the Holy Spirit has not completed His preparing and convicting work in someones heart and they are just not ready. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:44) Giving people a false assurance based solely on a ritul called the 'sinners prayer' can be tantamount to a spiritual abortion. Furthermore a softened lukewarm Gospel which often does not convict anyone, will not lead to a true repentance form the heart.

You say people can never be saved/regenerated after just one prayer. You declare everyone a false prophet who does not agree with you on this. This is a very serious accusation! Where are the scriptures that back up what you are saying? I've shown you Scriptures which prove what I say! Here is one more, where Jesus confirms salvation at the moment of repentance and faith:
<blockquote>Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. And he sought to see who Jesus was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature. So he ran ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see Him, for He was going to pass that way.And when Jesus came to the place, He looked up and saw him,[1] and said to him, "Zacchaeus, make haste and come down, for today I must stay at your house." So he made haste and came down, and received Him joyfully. But when they saw it, they all complained, saying, "He has gone to be a guest with a man who is a sinner." Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold." And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luk 19:2-10)
</blockquote>There are countless examples in the book of Acts where people are saved & regenerated and filled with the Holy Spirit at the moment of saving faith in their haert. One example:
<blockquote>While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? " And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.(Act 10:44-48)
</blockquote>Answer these questions: If they were not regenerated at this instant when were they? Where is that future regeneration recorded in the scriptures?

Quote:If that was to be true, then that would mean we had the SEED OF GOD within us, and the Bible says that who has the seed of God "SINNETH NOT". It's that plain and simple, pure English for everyone to understand. No man shall be able to pluck them from "Mine hand" says Christ.
Three separate issues here. You assume, that if someone is truly born of God, that he lives a life of sinless perfection. Therefore you conclude, because you see sin in your own life and in the lives of others, that they are not truly regenerated and going to hell. Is this really the teaching of the Bible? To whom was this verse written:
<blockquote>If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(1Jo 1:6-10)
</blockquote>Was it not written to Christians who walk in the light, but could still sin? John says WE in this place, if John was not regenerated at this point, then who was?

Second issue: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1Jo 5:18) Does this mean sinless perfection? No, it means not habitually sinning, as you need to consider context and the whole cousel of God. (Sinneth not Greek: ouch hamartanei. Lineal present active indicative, "does not keep on sinning," as in 1Jo_3:4-10.)

Quote:Now if Christ were to come that instant to the believer , we would not have backsliders.
Another issue! So you believe the doctrine of 'once saved - always saved' (eternal security) is scriptural? What about the many warnings against 'falling away', 'apostacy', 'turning back' etc.? How could someone fall away, if he had never been saved? Paul exhorts to keep the faith, to continue in the faith, he warns the believers. Was that all for nothing?

Quote:Either that, or the Bible contradicts itself. How can that be ? Should we change the word of God to fit our interpretation ,or hear Him who is in the Heaven and listen to what He has to say ?
Agreed, the Bible does not contradict itself and does not give useless warnings either!

Quote:The Bible says that "the way which leadeth to life is NARROW and the gate is STRAIT". Now how in the world can that be !? Saying the sinner's prayer is EASY and NOT HARD AT ALL i.e. narrow. or strait. We are constantly warned in the Bible that if we do not search and wait for Him that is to come, He shall not tarry. If the sinner's prayer was the door trough which Christ would enter our hearts than the Bible would be a lie. There would be NO SEARCHING , no SEEKING for God, a thing which Jesus constantly asks from us "if ye shall stay in my word" "pick up your cross and follow me" "seek and ye shall find". People used to do this in the Old Testament also ! Search for God and His face !
Agreed we should seek God and encourage others to do so. In past revivals people were often instructed to seek God for hours or days when the Holy Spirit convicted them of sin. There were more genuine conversions, with a truly born again (regenerated) heart than we see today with the easy believism of a watered down gospel which you rightly criticize.

Quote:As you plainly stated, conversion offers you the gifts of the Holy Spirit, more or less. Your life changes a little or a lot. Depends with each person. That is proof of conversion. Regeneration is a straight and narrow way apart from Conversion. Regeneration is the actual moment in which you reach this LIFE that is at the END of the way, NOT at the START of it. I mean it's really plain and clear , you can't twist this any other way.Regeneration is the actual encounter with Jesus (!). It's a real and literal event that takes place, and it is then that a person is saved and sealed for eternity, for He has the seed of God within ! (cannot sin)
Prove this in the scriptures: Where does conversion happen? Where does that second experience of regeneration happen? Prove that it is at the end! Try it with the examples I gave above: where are there two stages of conversion - regeneration? What happens to someone who dies before he reaches the second stage?

You're confusing regeneration with sanctification. Regeneration and justification happens at conversion. Sanctification is a process:
<blockquote>Salvation is accomplished in three tenses - past, present, and future. The born again Christian has been saved from the penalty of sin justification); he is being saved from the power of sin (sanctification); he shall be saved from the presence of sin (glorification). Salvation is the work of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) whereby the believer in Jesus Christ is redeemed from the curse of the law justification), set free from the dominion of sin (sanctification), and finally perfected in the image of his Lord (glorification). Justification is a backward look; sanctification is an inward look; glorification is a forward look. (link)
</blockquote>


Conversion &amp; Salvation - Forbin - 10-24-2006

DHammer & Ov3rkomer - thanks for your input.

Quote:i'd name this topic conversion and regeneration, but the one you picked is also ok I guess :P
Yeah, not ideal, but I thought a few buzzwords would suffice:)

Quote:That's a grave error people do. Jesus Christ does not come into your heart the second you finish that prayer. He simply doesn't. If that was to be true, then that would mean we had the SEED OF GOD within us, and the Bible says that who has the seed of God "SINNETH NOT". It's that plain and simple, pure English for everyone to understand. No man shall be able to pluck them from "Mine hand" says Christ.
DHammer, do you know any Christians who have the 'seed of God'? i.e. who do not sin. I've met hundreds of Christians but all of them still sinners. Is this, maybe, a very rare occurance? (narrow is the gate, etc)

Quote:Regeneration is the actual encounter with Jesus (!). It's a real and literal event that takes place, and it is then that a person is saved and sealed for eternity, for He has the seed of God within ! (cannot sin) Remember we were told that if we seek, Jesus says, "I shall come to you, and soup with you". Again and again He says He will come to the believer, but the false prophets say it has to do with the second advent.
Have you ever met Jesus in this manner? And if not, do you know anyone who has?


Ov3rkomer, I noticed this paragraph in one of the links you supplied :-
Quote:When new birth comes:
God's salvation is instant, eternal, and recognizable. You will know in your spirit when the sin burden is gone! When it is truly taken away by pure faith in Jesus Christ you WILL KNOW IT. You may not be able to adequately express what happened in your heart, but you will know something spiritual happened to your sin between you and God.
Do you agree with this?
Personally, I'd like to think its true but I'm not sure how much biblical evidence there is for it. In the past I've talked to a few Christians about their 'new birth'. They tend to justify the belief in their salvation purely by their interpretation of scripture (e.g. John 2:3-6, 2 Cor 13:5-6). This seems not only dangerous (since they could mis-interpret it) but also likely to cause unceasing doubt over the issue (since our minds are fallible). Whereas this idea of an absolute knowledge that 'your sins are taken away' seems much more practical.


Conversion &amp; Salvation - DHammer - 10-24-2006

Quote:I gave some biblical examples in my previous post, which show that people were saved at the moment of 'saving faith' in their heart. How do I know they were saved? Because Jesus said so! If Jesus said it, that settles it for me. None of them prayed the 'sinners prayer' given above.
Indeed you did, but they have nothing to do with the salvation process WE have to go trough. The old law still applied to that man in the church who was "justified" in an instant.

Quote:You say people can never be saved/regenerated after just one prayer. You declare everyone a false prophet who does not agree with you on this.

hmm.. I know that sounds radical but how exactly do you call a MAN who teaches a different gospel than that of CHRIST ? A false prophet ! I'm not really the one doing it, it's God. If Scripture does not match with what they have to say, then we can call them by name i.e. false prophet.
Quote:"Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luk 19:2-10)
I hear you, but as mentioned earlier, Jesus HAD TO DIE in order to give the believer God's love. Jesus had to buy the human race 1-st ! Don't you agree ? How could Jesus come down from Heaven if He did not die and rise up again ? He couldn`t !
Quote:While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? " And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.(Act 10:44-48)

good point. But does the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT equal SALVATION ? Let's look at what the Bible has to say:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Quote:Luke 6:46
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 25:11, Luke 13:25, Matthew 10:15

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


People who receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to talk in tongues or CAST OUT DEVILS , or do MANY WONDERFUL WORKS are CONVERTED Christians. THEY ARE NOT SAVED. They have only done half of it. They still have a long and narrow way to walk. Because they did not walk the way they were REJECTED, COLDLY AND WITHOUT A VERY GOOD EXPLANATION ! The same LOVE that saves us from doom is also the LOVE that will send millions to eternal ruin. God's love is a mistery to us, and Gods ways are unknown t man indeed.

People who have the gift of the Holy Spirit are not necesarily saved. I hope that clarifies it for you. One of the apostles told us that :


1st Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.



Answer these questions: If they were not regenerated at this instant when were they?


Ok. They weren't regenerated. They were only converted and received the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And I don't know when they got saved, the Bible doesn't say.
Where is that future regeneration recorded in the scriptures?
It isn't. Does it have to be ? :) No, not really.
Quote:Three separate issues here. You assume, that if someone is truly born of God, that he lives a life of sinless perfection. Therefore you conclude, because you see sin in your own life and in the lives of others, that they are not truly regenerated and going to hell.

1st John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


No matter what you or I say the Bible is CLEAR AS PURE WATER. Whosoever is born of God, DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN. In other words if you have God within you, you do not sin. For the seed remains in you, because you are born of God.

Either the salvation doctrine of the modern church is flawed, or the Bible lies.

Now this might surprise you, it might sound contradictory, but people who are regenerated CAN "step sideways" or commit "sins".

How is that possible you might ask ? Well notice that in John 3:9 we are told that who is born of God "cannot sin". How what exactly is this sin that separates man and God ? The lack of Love within. That is the ONLY issue between these two parties. Sinning is only the effect of that problem, the core of it is lack of Godly love within.

Thus as a regenerated Christian we have to be purged of our sins, i.e. cleansed. But we are STILL SAVED no matter what. If one sins too much, then God can simply kill him.
Quote:Lineal present active indicative, "does not keep on sinning," as in 1Jo_3:4-10.)
Exactly. As un-regenerated Christians, we "keep on sinning" for we lack God within. Without Him, we are constantly sinning, constantly breaking the commandment to LOVE as Jesus did. Once you do, you cannot "CONSTANTLY SIN". Does this make sense to you ?

Another issue! So you believe the doctrine of 'once saved - always saved' (eternal security) is scriptural? What about the many warnings against 'falling away', 'apostacy', 'turning back' etc.? How could someone fall away, if he had never been saved?


You can fall away as a converted Christian. You cannot fall away as a regenerated Christian. Simple as that.


Paul exhorts to keep the faith, to continue in the faith, he warns the believers.
Exactly ! He CONSTANTLY says that to converted Christians, to CONTINUE IN FAITH and "fight the good fight of faith" until HE THAT IS TO COME, WILL COME ! (guess who ? JESUS !) A converted Christian CAN fall away from the narrow way, because it is hard and painful. Many did, many are, many will.

Quote:Agreed we should seek God and encourage others to do so. In past revivals people were often instructed to seek God for hours or days when the Holy Spirit convicted them of sin.
yes, as you said the Holy Spirit MUST come and convict us of sin if we are to be regenerated. The conviction of sin IS PAINFUL and takes TIME.

Quote:Prove this in the scriptures: Where does conversion happen?
At the start of it all. It is the very choice one makes and decides to follow Christ and DO what He asked us to do.
When the apostles decided to LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND and FOLLOW Jesus by BELIEVING that He is indeed the Son of God, they converted themselves. Their lifes changed. The regeneration act was far far away from that moment.

Where does that second experience of regeneration happen?


at the end of this long and narrow way.

Prove that it is at the end!

It cannot be at the start for we are constantly warned and commanded to SEEK and "FIGHT the good fight of faith". If it was at the start of it, there would be no seeking, no pain, no "fight".

It cannot be at the middle or anywhere else because Jesus plainly states : The way that leadeth unto LIFE. It doesn't say "the way on which LIFE is", nor does He say "the way where you will meet LIFE". It says the way that LEADETH unto life. It means it ends there. At life.


What happens to someone who dies before he reaches the second stage?

as mentioned earlier, a Christian who decided to enter the strait gate, i.e. leave everything behind and follow Jesus, is basically kept alive by God Himself. He promised US that IF WE DO what He asked from us, HE WILL COME. HE PROMISED. Did He lie ? no of course not.

Now God alone decides how quickly He will regenerate a Christian, or how slow. He can do it in 3 years or 10. But you can be sure it's gonna be painful and it will take time for He says it will.


Conversion &amp; Salvation - DHammer - 10-24-2006

oh,and to answer Forbin's question :

Have you ever met Jesus in this manner? And if not, do you know anyone who has?


Meeting Christ is a one-in-a-lifetime-event. No I didn't, if I did I would have been saved.
And yes I do know some people who got regenerated. Stewart Best is one of them.


Conversion &amp; Salvation - ov3rkomer - 10-24-2006

I'll answer Forbin's question first:
Quote:
Quote:When new birth comes:
God's salvation is instant, eternal, and recognizable. You will know in your spirit when the sin burden is gone! When it is truly taken away by pure faith in Jesus Christ you WILL KNOW IT. You may not be able to adequately express what happened in your heart, but you will know something spiritual happened to your sin between you and God.
Do you agree with this?
Personally, I'd like to think its true but I'm not sure how much biblical evidence there is for it. In the past I've talked to a few Christians about their 'new birth'. They tend to justify the belief in their salvation purely by their interpretation of scripture (e.g. John 2:3-6, 2 Cor 13:5-6). This seems not only dangerous (since they could mis-interpret it) but also likely to cause unceasing doubt over the issue (since our minds are fallible). Whereas this idea of an absolute knowledge that 'your sins are taken away' seems much more practical.
Well lets look at the heart of the sinner first as he comes to the Lord: You know when you've sinned, you know when you are guilty (if your conscience has not been seared). Even an unbeliever will have this inner knowledge of his conscience accusing him. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Rom 2:15) Someone whom God is convicting by his Spirit will have an even stronger sense of the burden of sin, before he comes to the Lord. The Holy Spirit convinces us of Sin, He reveals Jesus. We perceive this conviction and it is not pleasant. If we do not run away from it, this will lead us to repentance and turning to Jesus for Salvation. (Often this is lacking, because it is not part of the popular Gospel message.)

If we have had a strong sense of conviction in coming to the Lord, we should also have a strong sense of relief, when this burden of guilt is lifted as we receive God's forgiveness. We will know in our Spirits, that we have been forgiven and freed. It is not just in the mind. (It is true we can talk ourselves into something purely by the mind and we might err, if we have not fulfilled God's conditions.)
<blockquote>For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1Jo 5:7-13)

</blockquote>There is more than one witness that confirms the New Birth in us. The Word of God, the Scriptures come first. We know we can trust God to mean what he says, when he promises to receive us. When you're truly born of God the witness of the Holy Spirit is the second witness, who confirms, that you belong to him. Another witness is the peace of God in our hearts. The witness of God will not contradict itself. You cannot go against the will of God in his Word and then claim you 'feel saved'. On the other hand, if you fulfilled God's condition as you come in faith to Jesus, there will be an evidence in your Spirit. Different people might perceive this differently, but the scripture speaks of this in many places. The Bible talks about the clear conscience, the witness of the Spirit, knowing that we have eternal life. The word know is a key here, it not only denotes head knowledge, but heart knowledge, experiential knowledge, knowing not just about someone, but knowing God.

The Greek word know has a deeper meaning, (including intimate knowledge of), not just limited to the knowledge of the mind:
<blockquote>ginōskō
Thayer Definition:
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
2a) to understand
2b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know
</blockquote><blockquote>And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Joh 17:3)
</blockquote>I have experienced this when I came to the Lord about 20 years ago,: I knew I was lost. The Spirit of God gave me a clear revelation of the Cross and the risen Christ through his Word and in my heart. After I responded to the Lord in faith and repentance, I had an incredible peace in my heart and I sensed the witness of the Spirit of God for the first time.

This is just the start, we have to maintain this walk with God: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Rom 8:14)


Conversion &amp; Salvation - DHammer - 10-25-2006

just wanna add a few things

Quote:The word know is a key here, it not only denotes head knowledge, but heart knowledge, experiential knowledge, knowing not just about someone, but knowing God.

Exactly ! It's an EXPERIENTAL KNOWLEDGE. Meeting Jesus has to be experiental, not merely a thought or feeling we have. It has to HAPPEN.
Quote:There is more than one witness that confirms the New Birth in us. The Word of God, the Scriptures come first. We know we can trust God to mean what he says, when he promises to receive us. When you're truly born of God the witness of the Holy Spirit is the second witness, who confirms, that you belong to him.

hmm... you talk about the witnesses who are present when salvation takes place. Acording to my views the Holy Spirit is always with you convicting of sin, then, when the road ends, you meet Christ that offers what the Father has , God's love. The entire Trinity is present, it makes perfect sense, for that is why God manifested Himself as a Trinity, to save us. What purpose would the Trinity have if salvation was merely an act of thought (faith as they call it).

Quote:The Greek word know has a deeper meaning, (including intimate knowledge of), not just limited to the knowledge of the mind:
ohh man, it's like i'm watching a sheepie looking at a bomb going off at the WTC saying "yeah, the arabs did it". I don't mean that in an offensive way, but rather, the truth is right in front of you ! Salvation is an experiental, literal, and intimate process, only you and God know about it when it takes place.