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2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
09-20-2012, 08:28 PM,
#1
2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot

With just 53 days until the November election most state ballots across the country are now set and it is clear that this year should be a historic one for marijuana reform. In addition to there being two state initiative for medical marijuana this November, incredibly three states will be voting on whether or not to fully legalize marijuana for adults. That is the largest number of legalization initiative to ever appear on the ballot in any given election, and more importantly, there is a very good chance one or more of them will win approval.

Marijuana Legalization – Washington, Colorado, Oregon

Washington – Initiative 502 is the legalization measure on the ballot in Washington State promoted by the New Approach Washington campaign. It would legalize up to an ounce of marijuana for adults over the age of 21. In addition, it would create a regulator system for the production, retail sale and taxation of marijuana. The law would create a new DUI standard. Of the three legalization initiatives on the ballot, it currently stand the best chance of passing. The most recent polling shows the initiative holds a large lead of 57% yes to 34% no. In addition, the campaign has raised over $3 million dollars and currently faces very little organized opposition in the state.

Colorado – In the centennial state voters will be deciding on Amendment 64. This initiative would also legalize up to an ounce of marijuana for adults over the age of 21. It would also create a regulator system for its tax, production and sale. Unlike I-502, it would allow for limited home growing and it does not change the law regarding DUI. While marijuana legalization is not polling as well in Colorado as it is in Washington state, Amendment 64 does have a solid lead. The most recent PPP shows it winning 47% yes to 38% no. The campaign has strong fundraising having brought in roughly $1 million to spend on their efforts to legalize it.

Oregon – Measure 80, the Oregon Tax Cannabis Act, is on the ballot here. This would legalize marijuana for adults over 21, allow for personal home growing, and create a regulated system for its sale. There has been very little recent polling on it, however. The last PPP poll from July found 43% of voters in the state think marijuana should be legal and 46% think it should be illegal.

Medical Marijuana – Massachusetts and Arkansas

Massachusetts – Question 3 on the ballot in Massachusetts would permit the medical use of marijuana for people with a doctor’s recommendation and create a limited number of dispensaries in the state to supply patients. All indications are that it will win approval this November making Massachusetts the 18th medical marijuana state. Massachusetts is a very liberal state and its voters have a history of strongly supporting marijuana reform. In 2008, a ballot measure to decriminalize marijuana passed with over 62 percent voting in favor of it. A PPP poll from last month found Question 3 is winning 58% yes to 27% no. The measure’s official opposition is comically disorganized.

Arkansas – If voters approve the Arkansas Medical Marijuana Act it would be the first state in the South to have a medical marijuana system. The law would allow patients with a doctor’s recommendation to use marijuana medically and create a system of non-profit dispensaries. The initiative has qualified for the ballot but a conservative coalition is suing to have it removed. Medical marijuana winning approval by voters in Arkansas would be a powerful signal that it has broad support all across the country.
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09-20-2012, 09:10 PM,
#2
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quite likely to pass too because what everyone really needs right now is another legal recreational drug.
More bread and circuses for the masses to keep them asleep, stop them asking questions, and avoid the reality of life...

I wonder if all the drug dealers will admit defeat, wrap up their business and get a proper job?
..or maybe they will just market their other wares more aggressively?
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09-20-2012, 09:26 PM,
#3
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
(09-20-2012, 09:10 PM)Swordfish Wrote: Quite likely to pass too because what everyone really needs right now is another legal recreational drug.
More bread and circuses for the masses to keep them asleep, stop them asking questions, and avoid the reality of life...

I wonder if all the drug dealers will admit defeat, wrap up their business and get a proper job?
..or maybe they will just market their other wares more aggressively?

it isn't just about getting stoned. from Oregon's measure 80:
Quote:The Oregon Cannabis Tax Act

Whereas the people of the State of Oregon find that Cannabis hemp is an environmentally beneficial crop that:

(a) Yields several times more fiber, for paper and textiles, than any other plant;

(b) Yields cloth and paper of superior strength and durability without the application of pesticides during cultivation and without producing cancer-causing pollutants during processing;

© Yields more seed oil and protein, for prodigious and ecological biodiesel fuel, plastics and nutritious food, than any other plant;

(d) Yields more biomass than any other plant outside the tropics, though it grows well in the tropics too, and grows faster than any other plant on earth in the temperate and cooler climates;

(e) Yields a substance that relieves the suffering of many ill people without life-threatening side effects; and,

Whereas the people find that federal and corporate misinformation campaigns that economically benefit small groups of people have suppressed the information above and the fact that:

(a) George Washington grew cannabis for more than 30 years and, while he was President, said, “the artificial preparation of hemp is really a curiosity” and told his Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton, that he was, “suggesting the policy of encouraging the growth of Hemp”;

(b) Thomas Jefferson invented a device to process cannabis, and cannabis fiber was used for most clothing and paper production until the invention of the cotton gin;

© Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania, who spoke at the U.S. Constitutional Convention in 1787 more than any other delegate and of whom James Madison said, “the style and finish of the Constitution properly belongs to the pen of Gouverneur Morris,” wrote a paper he sent to Thomas Jefferson called, “Notes Respecting Tobacco” that compared cannabis and tobacco and concluded that cannabis “is to be preferred”; and,

Whereas the people find that cannabis is Oregon’s largest cash crop, indicating that cannabis prohibition has failed; and,

Whereas the people find that, despite misinformation concocted to justify cannabis prohibition, the courts of Alaska, Hawaii and Michigan have noted presidential commission findings, scientific studies, and learned treatises which:

(a) Characterize cannabis as a relatively nonaddictive and comparatively harmless euphoriant used and cultivated for more than 10,000 years without a single lethal overdose;

(b) Demonstrate that moderate cannabis use causes very little impairment of psychomotor functions; reveal no significant physical, biochemical, or mental abnormalities attributable solely to cannabis use; and that long-term, heavy cannabis users do not deviate significantly from their social peers in terms of mental function;

© Disprove the “stepping stone” or “gateway drug” argument that cannabis use leads to other drugs; rather, that lies taught about cannabis, once discovered, destroy the credibility of valid educational messages about moderate and responsible use and valid warnings against other truly dangerous drugs;

(d) Indicate that cannabis users are less likely to commit violent acts than alcohol users, refute the argument that cannabis causes criminal behavior, and suggest that most users avoid aggressive behavior, even in the face of provocation; and

(e) Declare that cannabis use does not constitute a public health problem of any significant dimension; finds no rational basis for treating cannabis as more dangerous than alcohol; and

Whereas the people of the State of Oregon find that cannabis does not cause the social ills that its prohibition was intended to guard against; rather, that most of the social ills attributed to cannabis result from its unreasonable prohibition which:

(a) Provides incentives to traffic in marijuana instead of limiting its prevalence, since almost all cannabis users evade the prohibition, even though drastically expanding public safety budgets have reduced funding for other vital services such as education;

(b) Fosters a black market that exploits children, provides an economic subsidy for gangs, and sells cannabis of questionable purity and uncertain potency;

© Generates enormous, untaxed, illicit profits that debase our economy and corrupt our justice system; and,

(d) Wastes police resources, clogs our courts, and drains the public budget to no good effect; and,
Whereas, the people recall that alcohol prohibition had caused many of the same social ills before being replaced by regulatory laws which, ever since, have granted alcohol users the privilege of buying alcohol from state licensees, imposed strict penalties protecting children, delivered alcohol of sure potency, and generated substantial public revenues; and,

Whereas the people hold that cannabis prohibition is a sumptuary law of a nature repugnant to our constitution’s framers and which is so unreasonable and liberticidal as to:

(a) Arbitrarily violate the rights of cannabis users to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure as guaranteed to them by Article 1, Section 9 of the Oregon Constitution;

(b) Unreasonably impose felony burdens on the cannabis users while the state grants special privileges to alcohol users, which violates Article 1, Section 20 of the Oregon Constitution;

© Unnecessarily proscribe consumption of a “herb bearing seed” given to humanity in Genesis 1:29, thereby violating their unqualified religious rights under Article 1, Section 3 and their Natural Rights under Article 1, Section 33 of the Oregon Constitution;

(d) Violates the individual’s right to privacy and numerous other Natural and Constitutional Rights reserved to the people under Article 1, Section 33 of the Oregon Constitution;

(e) Violates the state’s right to regulate and tax commerce within the state, as reserved to states under the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, thereby abdicating control to illicit markets; and,

(f) Irrationally subvert the ends to which, in its Preamble, the Oregon Constitution was ordained and the purposes, in Article 1, Section 1, for which our government was instituted; now, Therefore, the people find that the constitutional ends of justice, order, and the perpetuation of liberty; the governmental purposes of preserving the peace, safety, and happiness of the people; and the vitality of the other constitutional provisions cited above, demand the replacement of a costly, self-defeating prohibition with regulatory laws controlling cannabis cultivation, potency, sale, and use; defining and prohibiting cannabis abuse; protecting children with a comprehensive drug education program and strict penalties for the sale or provision of cannabis to minors; funding state drug abuse treatment programs; promoting Oregon hemp for fuel, fiber and food; and raising substantial revenue for public use.
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09-21-2012, 06:52 PM,
#4
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quote:it isn't just about getting stoned. from Oregon's measure 80:

I agree, and an interesting list of justifications presented in the reply. However most of the justification is pure nonsense.

For example:
1. the justification that it would provide an alternative source of paper and fabric seems to suggest that firstly there is a need for an alternative source - which there isnt as you can already buy hemp based clothing made from less thc loaded species quote: Cannabis sativa L. subsp. sativa var. sativa is the variety grown for industrial use, while C. sativa subsp. indica generally has poor fiber quality and is primarily used for recreational and medicinal purposes..

2. To "relieve suffering" just requires that it is available through medical outlets and by prescription, just like any other medicines. This will not however be an outcome from any legislation as the drug cartels will claim that it has not been tested, and as it cannot be patented, will be blocked at every opportunity, just like it is now.

3. To suggest that there are no side effects is ridiculous as there are endless research papers, case studies, testimonies and peer reviews which show extended use producing paranoia and other mental dependency. Weed is used extensively as a mental crutch by those who cannot face the reality of their lives, and causes many relationship and family breakups.

4. Whether more or less dangerous than alcohol is an irrelevant argument as it presupposes that one will replace the other rather than the combined effect of both being available - its akin to saying because a vat of oil is on fire we can safely throw on some coal because its less flammable

5. I would challenge the claim that quote "moderate cannabis use causes very little impairment of psychomotor functions" by asking any believer in this to dare to take a plane trip with a pilot smoking dope or perhaps be operated on by a surgeon who has just been "chilling out"...

It is well known that cannabis can be retained in the body for days so does not require your pilot, surgeon or chain saw operator to be smoking it at the time.

6. I would also suggest that the introduction of the genetically modified species of dope are likely to have at present unpredictable long term effects than the more natural species and on which the majority of research and studies have been on.
As an aside, I am always very intrigued that the substance users on this forum and similar, always object to GM foods and manipulation of populations using foods etc but never seem to apply this same logic to their drug of choice

The truth is that the overwhelming majority of supporters for these kind of changes are not suffering with MS or chronic arthritis, have no desire to improve paper quality or provide fashion items. They are just using these issues in order that they can continue to get stoned - nothing wrong with that, but at least be honest about it.

Personally I dont care what people want to smoke inject or insert in their various orifices, as long as it doesnt have a direct impact on myself or my family.
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09-21-2012, 07:25 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-21-2012, 07:39 PM by SiLVa.)
#5
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
I know flight instructors that smoke pot. And I'm sure there are plenty of good surgeons that do so as well. Its not for everyone, just like anything else. It effects many people differently, so dont let other peoples so-called research lead you to your conclusions.
I know people that would never trust themselves behind the wheel of a car when theyre high - me on the other hand, never have an issue driving high whether its a car, a boat or a bike - that being said, I dont make it a habit to do so - but I know I can without any impairment.
Im sure some people process the THC differently. For goodness sakes my little cousin cant eat peanuts or he might die. A lot of people process things differently. Point is...If their were enough studies on it, this could be proven quite easily.

As far as using it for paper, cordage and other fabrics I see that as a step forward. Paper is not as recyclable as Hemp. Hemp is cheaper and quicker to grow. Would be much better for the environment to use it in such ways- the oil from it as well is much cleaner than crude oil. The amount of jobs and manufacturing that we could add to the U.S. economy would be beneficial too.
I could go on and on but its no use if people dont want to at least explore the beneficial possibilities.
"Listen to everyone, read everything, believe nothing unless you can prove it in your own research"
~William Cooper

DTTNWO!
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09-22-2012, 11:08 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-22-2012, 03:00 PM by Swordfish.)
#6
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quote:I know flight instructors that smoke pot. And I'm sure there are plenty of good surgeons that do so as well.

Im sure you do, and my point is would you want to be at the receiving end of a scalpel by one of them?
Whilst some activities (art for example) might benefit from substances, those which require full beta consciousness do not. Otherwise racing drivers, pilots and knife throwers in the circus would all be at it to improve performance.

Logic says that people smoke/eat dope BECAUSE they want an altered / different mental state - if it didnt have that effect they wouldnt take it. Ergo any mental activity you are involved in will be affected.

Quote:me on the other hand, never have an issue driving high whether its a car, a boat or a bike - that being said, I dont make it a habit to do so - but I know I can without any impairment.

I guess that would be the same claim that people who drive after drinking would make - I often claim I can dance after a few beers - but objective observation would say otherwise Icon_biggrin

Quote:so dont let other peoples so-called research lead you to your conclusions.
So I SHOULDNT take notice of the extensive research which has been done already (over many years, by experts in the field, and supplemented by my own personal experiences and observations over half a century)?

Quote:Point is...If their were enough studies on it, this could be proven quite easily.
Ah so I SHOULD take notice of the research which "could" be done?
Sounds logical, thanks

Quote:As far as using it for paper, cordage and other fabrics I see that as a step forward.

Read my earlier post - we ALREADY have access to the species of hemp that can do this (since the 70s) - do a google search on hemp clothing or ask in your local plumbers for some plumbers hemp (as used on screw threads etc)
You indicated that I shouldnt take notice of the "so called" research however there is a distinct lack of research and understanding for many people that there is a difference between industrial hemp and cannabis.

For clarity, cannabis is the plant that gets you high and may have medicinal properties, and hemp is the trojan horse justification that people use to try and fool people into supporting dope legalisation for the masses.

From a historical perspective, any planned legalisation is using a variation on the same tactic that originally got "hemp" banned ie by focussing people on the Cannabis/Reefer madness species, and thus allowing rich people to benefit from the new paper production methods. All species of hemp were grouped together as "dope".
What people are doing now is just a variation of this by focussing on the "green" and resource efficient aspects of hemp whilst not differentiating between the unrelated (in usage) species in order to get dope readily available.

It was convenient for elites to ban "hemp" at the time in order to make more money, by deception, and it suits them now to use deception in order to keep more people "entertained" and asleep for control purposes.
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09-22-2012, 07:20 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-22-2012, 07:25 PM by h3rm35.)
#7
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quote:Read my earlier post - we ALREADY have access to the species of hemp that can do this (since the 70s) - do a google search on hemp clothing or ask in your local plumbers for some plumbers hemp (as used on screw threads etc)

There is absolutely NO legal industrial hemp produced within the united states. It's all sourced from other countries. The mass production of hemp is being considered ever since Canada started allowing it, but industrial hemp IS cannabis sativa, and therefore gowing it is considered manufacture of a schedule 1 narcotic, regardless of its cannabinoid make-up. Take your own advice and UTFSE to check for US industrial hemp.

It's also not accurate that it "may" have medical properties. There's more evidence that it's more effective for certain medical conditions with less negative side-effects than the entire class of modern anti-depressants that make billions upon billions for PhRMA.

I could go on , but I see SiLVa's point that there really isn't one in discussing this topic with someone who seems to be set in their mind and seems unwilling to re-examine the issue.
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09-23-2012, 10:19 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-23-2012, 10:24 AM by Swordfish.)
#8
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quote:It's all sourced from other countries.

Yes thats what we call the supply chain. Just the same as we in the UK get our tomatoes from China - if it can be produced cheaper elsewhere then that is where corporations will source it.
Not all that crap you buy in Walmart is made in the US - it could be but some 14 year old in China can make it cheaper.
Companies will not just "buy local" because they can. Im willing to bet that its currently sourced from a 3rd world country and your chances of competing on price to produce it are about ...um jack shit.

I dont agree with this approach but multinationals dont care whos making it, just the price. The UK coal industry was decimated years back because whilst having capability and capacity to produce it, other countries can produce cheaper because they dont have proper wages etc

Yes industrial hemp is cannabis sativa however is of a very low thc content so not suitable for "other purposes". You have already acknowledged that hemp is available so this "green" push and flying the flag for the clothes manufacturing industry is not only laughable, its just a front to get legalised the stuff you CAN smoke etc.
Just be honest about it and stop bleating about paper, fabrics blah blah when the bottom line is that you want the non industrial variety.

Quote:It's also not accurate that it "may" have medical properties. There's more evidence that it's more effective for certain medical conditions

ah yes but I was recently advised not to take notice of any "so called" research on these matters LOL

And btw I have never indicated I wouldnt support its use for medical purposes - in the same way that I think morphine should be available for medicinal purposes, but I wouldnt support a law that allowed everyone to grow opium poppies in their back yard...

Quote:but I see SiLVa's point that there really isn't one in discussing this topic

My apologies, hope I havent upset you, I mistakenly thought this was a forum to discuss topics rather than one to just agree with the concensus viewpoint.
Note to self: keep quiet, agree with everyone, and dont question motives.
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09-23-2012, 05:29 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-23-2012, 06:08 PM by h3rm35.)
#9
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quote:Yes thats what we call the supply chain. Just the same as we in the UK get our tomatoes from China - if it can be produced cheaper elsewhere then that is where corporations will source it. Not all that crap you buy in Walmart is made in the US - it could be but some 14 year old in China can make it cheaper.
Companies will not just "buy local" because they can. Im willing to bet that its currently sourced from a 3rd world country and your chances of competing on price to produce it are about ...um jack shit.

I dont agree with this approach but multinationals dont care whos making it, just the price. The UK coal industry was decimated years back because whilst having capability and capacity to produce it, other countries can produce cheaper because they dont have proper wages etc

Yes industrial hemp is cannabis sativa however is of a very low thc content so not suitable for "other purposes". You have already acknowledged that hemp is available so this "green" push and flying the flag for the clothes manufacturing industry is not only laughable, its just a front to get legalised the stuff you CAN smoke etc.
Just be honest about it and stop bleating about paper, fabrics blah blah when the bottom line is that you want the non industrial variety.

I'm all for THE LARGEST agricultural producer on the planet, with low cost production infrasructure already in place, at least partially switching over to a crop that's more than government-subsidized, genetically-modified livestock feed (that often rots in silos because it isn't used fast enough,) doesn't require pesticides (for everything but human consumption,) doesn't require genetic modification to flourish in most areas of that country (and the world,), and which has the ability to create a less petroleum-focused, less cotton-focused, and less GM grain crop focused society. Whether that happens state-to-state or nationwide, I don't really care. Any way it can happen would be fine with me. If I could buy lower-cost (because of required importation,) hemp clothing and see more petroleum products replaced by lower-cost and less destructive hemp alternatives, walk through the northwest's Redwood and Sequoia groves with less clear-cuts, I'd be content. This measure allows for recreational use, and that's fine with me also. I live in Oregon already and have lived much of the last decade in California as well. In either state, I'd have felt comfortable walking around with a quarter-pound of the smokeable product in my backpack without fear of any serious legal repercussions. In effect, for me personally, this law has already passed. The recreational legalization just gives the state the ability to tax and regulate the legal distribution of this product so that it's harder for kids to get. When I was a kid in NY, even without medical or legalized status, it was easier for me to get pot than liquor.

Simply stated, don't accuse me of using the industrial issue as a strawman, 'cause I have no problem procuring low-cost high quality ingestable product without fear of legal repercussions already. Most likely, this measure's passage would increase its cost for me and decrease the amount of business hours when I can pick it up. I've been an actual HEMP legalization proponent since I learned of its uses, with or without recreational use included. I'd gladly trade industrial hemp legalization nation-wide over Oregon legalizing recreationally... without batting an eye. I wouldn't have decided to look into the issue without enjoying it recreationally first, true, but now that's second fiddle. THAT perspective comes from constantly re-assesing my stance on the issues involved as my circumstances change and my understanding of the issues increases.

I feel insulted because you personally accused me of lying about my motivations. I feel insulted because you act as though I have no idea about the realities of economics. That bullshit you're spewing about SiLVa and I wanting you to "keep quiet and agree," is insulting. I pesonally don't give a shit if you agree or disagree, just that you respect our opinions as well. We've both wanted you to take another look at the issues involved, and if you'd done anything other act intellectually dishonest & superior, repeat the concept that all we give a shit about is getting high and imply that everyone on our side of the issue has exactly the same intentions and are LYING if we claim anything else, maybe we'd be less likely to want to ignore you. If you want rational debate on a forum without defensivness, you might want to think about how your statements effect other people and try to act rationally yourself.

Now that that's been said, I'll end my portion of the personal respones.
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09-23-2012, 07:28 PM,
#10
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quote:I'm all for THE LARGEST agricultural producer on the planet, with low cost production infrasructure already in place, at least partially switching over to a crop that's more than government-subsidized, genetically-modified livestock feed

...aint gonna happen though is it even if you want it to unless the big guys who run the corporations decide to transfer their stock into hemp paper production and the manufacture of clothing that smells like hippies. You seem to be running under the illusion that its the general population that decides the economic strategies of business.
You would be running diesel engines on peanut oil if there was a will to do so.

Quote:The recreational legalization just gives the state the ability to tax and regulate the legal distribution of this product so that it's harder for kids to get

What a twisted logic quote - ...it's harder for kids to get
Let me repeat that back to you - something legal is harder to get hold of than something illegal?

Yes of course, because ALL the illegal stuff will cease wont it LOLLOL Tell that to places who have legalised prostitution - none of them still have illegal prostitutes do they? In the UK tobacco is legal but hey guess what, people still smuggle it in illegally to save money!
You also forgot the bit about making it socially acceptable (even government approved) and subject of aggressive marketing which would encourage usage by those who normally wouldnt be users. Seems a good way to keep people asleep when added to the current list of sport, alcohol, and the other diversions which stop people acting like adults. Like the romans used, bread and circuses.

Quote:I feel insulted because you personally accused me of lying about my motivations.I feel insulted because you act as though I have no idea about the realities of economics. That bullshit you're spewing about SiLVa and I wanting you to "keep quiet and agree," is insulting

Well youll just have to be insulted then if you are that thin skinned and want to take it personally.
Im not responsible for your emotional responses, Im just putting forward an alternative view to the debate.
If you are going to promote or debate controversial issues on a conspiracy forum then you may have to man up a bit when someone disagrees with your own agenda.

I am more than happy to debate and reconsider my views however the weak arguments presented in this thread are hardly likely to make a good case .
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09-23-2012, 07:49 PM,
#11
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
I don't know many people who'll take being called ignorant or a liar as anything other than an insult, especially when the person is niether. You won't be hearing from me again.
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09-24-2012, 05:01 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-24-2012, 05:03 PM by Swordfish.)
#12
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quote:I don't know many people who'll take being called ignorant or a liar as anything other than an insult

Well if indeed I had used either of those words you might have had a point however the only person who has used those words in this thread is ...YOU! Undecided

I have not directed any comments personally, and I challenge you to highlight where I have if you think this is the case.
Did I say you are ignorant? NO!
Did I say you were a liar? NO!

If you have chosen to put yourself in the frame for comments about "people" generally thats your choice.
I am free to have an opinion and so do you - get over yourself.

Quote:If you are going to promote or debate controversial issues on a conspiracy forum then you may have to man up a bit when someone disagrees with your own agenda

Enjoy the debate and chill out.
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09-24-2012, 08:37 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-24-2012, 08:59 PM by SiLVa.)
#13
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
(09-22-2012, 11:08 AM)Swordfish Wrote: Im sure you do, and my point is would you want to be at the receiving end of a scalpel by one of them?
Whilst some activities (art for example) might benefit from substances, those which require full beta consciousness do not. Otherwise racing drivers, pilots and knife throwers in the circus would all be at it to improve performance.

You seem to like to be condescending and not nearly enough understanding. Lets keep this civil, or just forget about it.
If they believe they could perform the surgury just the same I wouldnt worry about it knowing my understanding of the drug from personal experience. How many surgeons do you know that would intentionally risk hurting someone in their OR?
As far as your comment on race drivers, pilots and knife throwers, I call assumptions on your part. How do you know that those types of people dont use it? The fact that its "illegal" doesnt mean they absolutely DO NOT use it, but certainly would be a reason they wouldnt publicize it.

(09-22-2012, 11:08 AM)Swordfish Wrote: Logic says that people smoke/eat dope BECAUSE they want an altered / different mental state - if it didnt have that effect they wouldnt take it. Ergo any mental activity you are involved in will be affected.
Yes, but affected negatively? Thats not always the case. Like I said before, it does affect people differently.

(09-22-2012, 11:08 AM)Swordfish Wrote: I guess that would be the same claim that people who drive after drinking would make - I often claim I can dance after a few beers - but objective observation would say otherwise Icon_biggrin
Nope, not the same claim at all. As I make the claim about weed and while totally sober. Im not making the claim about alcohol while being drunk. Making judgement calls while high are different than doing the same while drunk. Alcohol alters much more than just your mental state. The substances are completely different and the logic clearly skewed to fit your arguement, but not reality.

(09-22-2012, 11:08 AM)Swordfish Wrote: So I SHOULDNT take notice of the extensive research which has been done already (over many years, by experts in the field, and supplemented by my own personal experiences and observations over half a century)?

Quote:Point is...If their were enough studies on it, this could be proven quite easily.
Ah so I SHOULD take notice of the research which "could" be done?
Sounds logical, thanks
The pure douchiness of your comment says a lot. You're on a conspiracy board here. Is there or is there not a whole host of "expert opinions" and "research" on many topics that are blatant bullshit? Objective research is not something I'm against, it is however the hardest to find. And yet again to mention the independant research that yes, COULD be done, as in - it hasn't happened yet, mostly because the substance is illegal so access is limited. Do you honestly believe that all the valid research that can be done on marijuana has been done already?
Not even close.

(09-22-2012, 11:08 AM)Swordfish Wrote: Read my earlier post - we ALREADY have access to the species of hemp that can do this (since the 70s) - do a google search on hemp clothing or ask in your local plumbers for some plumbers hemp (as used on screw threads etc)
You indicated that I shouldnt take notice of the "so called" research however there is a distinct lack of research and understanding for many people that there is a difference between industrial hemp and cannabis.

For clarity, cannabis is the plant that gets you high and may have medicinal properties, and hemp is the trojan horse justification that people use to try and fool people into supporting dope legalisation for the masses.

From a historical perspective, any planned legalisation is using a variation on the same tactic that originally got "hemp" banned ie by focussing people on the Cannabis/Reefer madness species, and thus allowing rich people to benefit from the new paper production methods. All species of hemp were grouped together as "dope".
What people are doing now is just a variation of this by focussing on the "green" and resource efficient aspects of hemp whilst not differentiating between the unrelated (in usage) species in order to get dope readily available.

It was convenient for elites to ban "hemp" at the time in order to make more money, by deception, and it suits them now to use deception in order to keep more people "entertained" and asleep for control purposes.

Thanks for the clarification but I too know the many differences between the two. Also, your comparison isnt quite the same. In the time that they were trying to make marijuana illegal they were using plenty of propaganda and falsified claims- not real scientific research to do so. Whereas its the scientific research and actual use of the plant in its many uses thats led to the push for legalizing it and using it for medical purposes as well as industrial uses. And there is still room for more research in that department but the fact that its illegal prevents that.
It seems you didnt understand where I was going with my last post in regards to hemp production. I too know that it is available, but only to purchase goods already made or imported in bulk. I was trying to imply the benefits of making it legal for mass production here in the U.S. I think that the fact that it is illegal is just another way for the elites to stifle the free market and maintain control and profitability of other resources that hemp is a worthy competitor to.
Keeping it illegal prevents independant research, prevents job growth, prevents healthier alternatives to fuel and paper products - All which benefit the elite and big multinational corporations.

For you to classify hemp as just "the trojan horse justification that people use to try and fool people into supporting dope legalisation for the masses" reveals your bias and lack of objectivity in this debate. Are there really any elites funding this agenda to legalize marijuana for the sake of using it for hemp production? Even if they are full of crap - You're saying they are using the deception of the masses to confuse hemp/cannabis, but even then you should at least find some to back up your claim.

The elites have far more to gain if they keep marijuana illegal in the U.S. History has proven that. Just look at how much its profitted them already.
How would legalizing marijuana (whether cannabis or hemp) be more profittable to the elites? I saw your initial statement referring to bread & circuses, but I dont think thats enough. Its been proven time and time again that legalizing it does NOT mean that the use of the drugs would increase among the population- in fact, all past history says the opposite. Portugal is a great example.
"Listen to everyone, read everything, believe nothing unless you can prove it in your own research"
~William Cooper

DTTNWO!
Reply
09-25-2012, 08:41 PM,
#14
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
Quote:And yet again to mention the independant research that yes, COULD be done, as in - it hasn't happened yet, mostly because the substance is illegal so access is limited. Do you honestly believe that all the valid research that can be done on marijuana has been done already?
Not even close.

Pure gobbledygook.
..it hasn't happened yet but you have concluded that any current research is invalid?

Heres some research to support my case: ref: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/body/effects.html
MEMORY/PERCEPTION/BEHAVIOR

1. Attention, memory and learning are impaired among heavy marijuana users, even after users discontinued its use for at least 24 hours. Heavy marijuana use is associated with residual neuropsychological effects even after a day of supervised abstinence from the drug. Heavy users displayed significantly greater impairment than light users on attention/executive functions, as evidenced particularly by greater preservations on card sorting and reduced learning of word lists. These differences remained after controlling for potential confounding variables, such as estimated levels of premorbid cognitive functioning, and for use of alcohol and other substances in the two groups. However, the question remains open as to whether this impairment is due to a residue of drug in the brain, a withdrawal effect from the drug, or a frank neurotoxic effect of the drug. ("The Residual Cognitive Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use in College Students," Pope, HG Jr., Yurgelun-Todd, D., Biological Psychiatry Laboratory, McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA, JAMA February 21, 1996.)

2. Impaired memory for recent events, difficulty concentrating, dreamlike states, impaired motor coordination, impaired driving and other psychomotor skills, slowed reaction time, impaired goal-directed mental activity, and altered peripheral vision are common associated effects. (Adams and Martin 1996; Fehr and Kalant 1983; Hollister 1988a; Institute of Medicine 1982; Tart 1971)

3. A roadside study of reckless drivers who were not impaired by alcohol, showed that 45% of these drivers tested positive for marijuana. (Dr. Dan Brookoff, published in the New England Journal of Medicine)

4. Marijuana smoking affects the brain and leads to impaired short-term memory, perception, judgment and motor skills. (Marijuana Facts: Parents Need to Know, National Institute on Drug Abuse )

5. In a survey of 150 marijuana using students, 59% surveyed report they sometimes forget what a conversation is about before it has ended. 41% report if they read while stoned they remembered less of what they had read hours later. (Dr. Richard Schwartz, Vienna Pediatric Associates in Psychiatric Annals as reported in NIDA Capsules)

NEUROBIOLOGICAL EFFECTS

6. Marijuana activates the same pleasure centers in the brain that are targeted by heroin, cocaine and alcohol. (Dr. Gaetano Di Chiara, University of Caligari, Italy)

CARDIOVASCULAR EFFECTS

7. Physiological effects of marijuana include an alteration of heart rate.


If you would still be prepared to be operated on by a person who has any of the above effects, we will all draw our own conclusions.

Quote:For you to classify hemp as just "the trojan horse justification that people use to try and fool people into supporting dope legalisation for the masses" reveals your bias and lack of objectivity in this debate.

No it reveals my logical and researched view on the topic in question. Lets see YOUR research that shows dope DOESNT affect your motor skills.

Quote:How would legalizing marijuana (whether cannabis or hemp) be more profittable to the elites? I saw your initial statement referring to bread & circuses, but I dont think thats enough.

Well I DO think its enough. Mexican standoff! Hehe

Quote:Its been proven time and time again that legalizing it does NOT mean that the use of the drugs would increase among the population- in fact, all past history says the opposite.

Time and time again? All past history? ...Wheres the evidence for that! BS
In victorian Britain it was common for people to take opium and even give it to children - do you think that making it illegal may have influenced their behaviour or do you think we still do this?
If you made cocaine legal, it would be marketed as effectively as iphones.

Quote:Portugal is a great example.

Portugal is a rubbish example as it is still illegal - it has however been decriminalised, ...not quite the same thing.
A better example is Holland where any visitor to Amsterdam (Ive been many times) is greeted by the dross of europe spending their day blasted out of their minds (and unfit for any kind of meaningful activity)
Remember you are unique
...just like everyone else.
Reply
09-25-2012, 11:11 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-25-2012, 11:25 PM by SiLVa.)
#15
RE: 2012: Historic Year for Marijuana Reform on the Ballot
(09-25-2012, 08:41 PM)Swordfish Wrote: Pure gobbledygook.
..it hasn't happened yet but you have concluded that any current research is invalid?

I didnt say "any current research is invalid" - I did say most of it isnt valid in its context. Do you think every single study or research paper that gets published is completely accurate information?
I thank God Im not just as gullible.
I may look at the information given in a study or research paper, but I usually let my own life experiences, practical knowledge and follow-up research help discern what is or isnt valid truth or just cherry picked information to suit an agenda- usually an agenda against personal freedom. Do you have something against personal freedom?

You seem more than content to believe whatever study or factoids that fit your worldview. What can I say, I dont bend over so easily.
What do you know? Look at what we got here:
Quote:Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science
Much of what medical researchers conclude in their studies is misleading, exaggerated, or flat-out wrong. So why are doctors—to a striking extent—still drawing upon misinformation in their everyday practice? Dr. John Ioannidis has spent his career challenging his peers by exposing their bad science.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/308269/

Why Most Published Research Findings Are False
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/

So much more research has not been able to happen or is invalid. Are you against research that hasnt been done yet, or research that may debunk the myths that most of the elder generations still cling to? Im not just talking about research in the medical field either, but the overall uses that could help out in many areas of human life.
Its a natural plant that has never killed anyone and yet so much totalitarianism is supported by so-called freedom loving people to squash any personal use of the plant in any way - even if its beneficial. That to me is the epitome of ignorance.

(09-25-2012, 08:41 PM)Swordfish Wrote: Heres some research to support my case: ref: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/body/effects.html
MEMORY/PERCEPTION/BEHAVIOR

1. Attention, memory and learning are impaired among heavy marijuana users, even after users discontinued its use for at least 24 hours. Heavy marijuana use is associated with residual neuropsychological effects even after a day of supervised abstinence from the drug. Heavy users displayed significantly greater impairment than light users on attention/executive functions, as evidenced particularly by greater preservations on card sorting and reduced learning of word lists. These differences remained after controlling for potential confounding variables, such as estimated levels of premorbid cognitive functioning, and for use of alcohol and other substances in the two groups. However, the question remains open as to whether this impairment is due to a residue of drug in the brain, a withdrawal effect from the drug, or a frank neurotoxic effect of the drug. ("The Residual Cognitive Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use in College Students," Pope, HG Jr., Yurgelun-Todd, D., Biological Psychiatry Laboratory, McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA, JAMA February 21, 1996.)

2. Impaired memory for recent events, difficulty concentrating, dreamlike states, impaired motor coordination, impaired driving and other psychomotor skills, slowed reaction time, impaired goal-directed mental activity, and altered peripheral vision are common associated effects. (Adams and Martin 1996; Fehr and Kalant 1983; Hollister 1988a; Institute of Medicine 1982; Tart 1971)

3. A roadside study of reckless drivers who were not impaired by alcohol, showed that 45% of these drivers tested positive for marijuana. (Dr. Dan Brookoff, published in the New England Journal of Medicine)

4. Marijuana smoking affects the brain and leads to impaired short-term memory, perception, judgment and motor skills. (Marijuana Facts: Parents Need to Know, National Institute on Drug Abuse )

5. In a survey of 150 marijuana using students, 59% surveyed report they sometimes forget what a conversation is about before it has ended. 41% report if they read while stoned they remembered less of what they had read hours later. (Dr. Richard Schwartz, Vienna Pediatric Associates in Psychiatric Annals as reported in NIDA Capsules)

If you would still be prepared to be operated on by a person who has any of the above effects, we will all draw our own conclusions.
There is no "we" here, just you.
As far as your research - Signs019 - see above.

But wait a second...
(09-25-2012, 08:41 PM)Swordfish Wrote: NEUROBIOLOGICAL EFFECTS

6. Marijuana activates the same pleasure centers in the brain that are targeted by heroin, cocaine and alcohol. (Dr. Gaetano Di Chiara, University of Caligari, Italy)
So you mean I can activate pleasure centers of the brain without having to abuse such substances as heroin, cocaine and alcohol- just by using this natural god given plant? I call that a win win!

I posted this before and Im not going to do it a third time, so let me make this a little more clearer for you one final time. Marijuana effects people differently. Not everyone that smokes it, or eats it has the same effect that your regurgitated "research" says it does. In fact, Smoking it and eating it provides 2 totally different "highs" all together so even clumping them together is not taking into account the nuances.

(09-25-2012, 08:41 PM)Swordfish Wrote: No it reveals my logical and researched view on the topic in question. Lets see YOUR research that shows dope DOESNT affect your motor skills.
How's this for my motor skills? Ive driven while high almost everyday of my late teen years, all my twenties into my thirties and have never once gotten into any incident. Ive never been in an accident, but have evaded them, even while high. I have a clean driving record and my last ticket was a speeding ticket almost ten years ago. So you know what your studies mean to me? Absolute shit.[Image: shit.gif]
Its pretty hypocritical of me to revert to studies, as Ive said over and over that different people's experiences with marijuana can vary, but since it seems the only thing you will consider, here you go. Knock yourself out.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Study+marijuana+doesn%27t+affect+driving

(09-25-2012, 08:41 PM)Swordfish Wrote:
Quote:How would legalizing marijuana (whether cannabis or hemp) be more profittable to the elites? I saw your initial statement referring to bread & circuses, but I dont think thats enough.

Well I DO think its enough. Mexican standoff!

Its not enough. Ive at least given some examples of how it would benefit the people and not the elites. You have to do better than that.
Your claim that the elites had it made illegal and now are trying to push for the opposite doesnt wash without some proof or examples to show what you mean or why -beyond some benign quote from the era of the Roman empire... Is that all you got?

(09-25-2012, 08:41 PM)Swordfish Wrote: Time and time again? All past history? ...Wheres the evidence for that! BS
In victorian Britain it was common for people to take opium and even give it to children - do you think that making it illegal may have influenced their behaviour or do you think we still do this?
If you made cocaine legal, it would be marketed as effectively as iphones.
Giving opium to children was done before they even knew what disease was or had any idea what antibiotics were. You're only proving my point. The so-called science of the time was wrong - and people were worse off because of that.

(09-25-2012, 08:41 PM)Swordfish Wrote: Portugal is a rubbish example as it is still illegal - it has however been decriminalised, ...not quite the same thing.
Either way, you want to focus on technical terms, I rather focus on the results. Its people like you that make the claims that more people will use it if it became more accessible - the facts of how much drug use dropped in Portugal is proof positive that claims such as yours are invalid and have no rational basis in truth. Period.
Carry on with your ancient beliefs all you like, just dont impede on my freedom by basing your judgements on inaccurate information.
"Listen to everyone, read everything, believe nothing unless you can prove it in your own research"
~William Cooper

DTTNWO!
Reply


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