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jack · (This post was last modified: 05-25-2008 11:04 AM by jack.)

Quote:Any one with genuine belief in anything has them as a results of seeking out answers, not having them shoved down their throats. Not only is it a choking hazard, but it generally results in the opposite of the desired impact. In my opinion, a religious or spiritual person of any type should be more concerned about the condition man in the mirror if he or she wishes to contribute anything worthy of praise.

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: I'll second that :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

horseonwheels · 05-25-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:Holy Bible is the Word of the only true God.

which one of them?

trueaim · 05-25-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:
Quote:Holy Bible is the Word of the only true God.

which one of them?

Read the thread. I have already said which one.

horseonwheels · 05-25-2008, 12:41 PM

yes, but it became clear from reading (and from what i read before this thread) that you are perhaps the only person in the world who belive that KING JAMES (own) VERSION is the word of God.

markko · 05-25-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:Yes there is, take my education for example, I went to a secular state school than to some damned university, I didnt learn a thing. I was possessed by a demon once you know I learnt something then, I was rescued by the Lord Jesus - I learnt even more then.

You were possessed by the deamons of your own mind. That wouldn't be possible if you had control over your mind. And you won't get that talking to imaginary friends and reading bronze age texts describing angry gods and primitive wars with sticks and stones.

Every religion is true and every religion is false at the same time. They all agree on some basic things, that we should live moral life, help each other, seek knowledge (salvation), kill our ego, and leave materialistic thinking behind. And that's it. Every other teaching is a cultural and historical wrapper of these basic teachings. And these teachings are not bad, they don't make you stupid, indoctrinated, and have nothing to do with various angry god figures also. If one understands this, but remains in his religion because he feels okay in it, even if he knows it's a work of men and also knows that his religion's text is not divinely inspired, that's okay. Nothing wrong with it. On the other side, it's wrong if a person never doubts or questions what he is being fed and never seeks the answers on his own but always depends on holy books and silly gurus

What after death?
Who knows? There is some indication that something might survive death, from various OOBE and NDE experiences, from religion teachings, and from some philosophical points also. Modern science with discoveries in quantum physics also raises new questions. But what survives death? Only energy? We know that it does, but what about consciousness? I guess we will all see when time will be for us to see.

Quote:yes, but it became clear from reading (and from what i read before this thread) that you are perhaps the only person in the world who belive that KING JAMES (own) VERSION is the word of God.

He is not the only one. He is just brainwashed. There is a whole idiotic KJV-Only movement and is really not uncommon int he USA. One of the most known lunatics promoting KJV-only is Jack Chick: http://www.chick.com/information/bibleversions/
Also many others:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/1611_..._king_james.htm

shadow watcher · (This post was last modified: 05-25-2008 08:45 PM by shadow watcher.)

i haven't been here in a while.

to the comment that Jesus' divinity was decided at nicea, someone's been reading too much dan brown.

the council of nicea did not decide the divinity of Jesus.

Jesus claimed to be God while he was still alive, it's why they crucified Him. the eye witnesses fled in fear of death when Jesus got crucified, but after his ressurection, these same scared people willingly marched to their death for their faith in Him as God as they saw Him resurrected, and not for any other reason.

the council of nicea was to decide if Jesus was of the same substance of God the father. Arius argued that Jesus was a created being, Athanasius argued for the full deity of Christ. The vote of the council of nicea was 5 out of 318 dissenting, only 2 refused to sign it. The end result was nicene creed, and changing the observation of the resurrection from the Jewish passover (which is when it was) to the time of the pagan celebration of Tammuz.

20 rulings were issued at the council of nicea

-the contents of all of them are still in existence

-not one of them involved issues regarding the canon.

In the 1st century his divinity was already being acknowledged

2nd century

ignatius bishop of antioch

there is one God who manifests himself through Jesus Christ his son." "son of Mary and Son of God . . . Jesus Christ our Lord . . God Incarnate . . . Christ God"

polycarp of Smrna letter to the church at philippi assumes t eh divinity of Jesus, his glorification etc.

irenaeus (185) in against heresises "our lord, and God, and saviour, and king"

clement of alexandria (200) "truly most manifest deity, he that is made equal to the lord of the universe; because he was His Son." exhortation to the heathen

Constantine came a century later.

tertullian (150-212)

the persecutions in rome commanded worship of the emperor

many other Christians marched willingly to their deaths in Rome before Constantine tried to marry pagan Rome to Christianity. Christians died for not wanting to say Caesar was god, because they believed Jesus to be God. This is because they truly believed Christ was God, not some great prophet or teacher.
their maryrdom was a result of their exclusive commitment ot Christ as God.

the gnostic gospels were written centuries later under pseudonyms.

the copies found at nag hammadi dating from the 3rd and 4th centuries.

they make no pretense of being an actual record of events.

the gnostic gospels contrast with luke

Luke 1:1-4

1Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

luke has many confirmable historical details: cities, seas, ships, geographical minutiae.

a lot of these were confirmed by modern archaeologists.

excerpt from mindspring.com

Archaeology and the New Testament

Sir William Ramsay is regarded as one of the greatest archaeologists ever to have lived. He believed that the Book of Acts was a product of the mid-second century A.D. (150 A.D.). He set out to prove it. However, after thorough research, he changed his mind. He became a firm defender for the mid-first century authorship of Acts.

For many critics the account of the birth of Jesus was held as ridiculous. They argued that there was no census, that Quirinius was not Governor of Syria at that time and that everyone did not have to return to his ancestral home for a census. Archaeology has proven the critics wrong (again) ---

The Romans had a regular enrollment of taxpayers and held censuses every 14 years. The procedure was begun under Augustus.

Quirinius was Governor of Syria about 7 B.C.

A papyrus found in Egypt gives directions for the conduct of a census. Families were to return to their own governments to complete family registration of the enrollment and that the tilled lands might retain those belonging to them.

Critics said Acts was unreliable because Luke wrote that Lystra and Derbe were in Lycaonia and Iconium was not (Acts 14:6). However, in 1910, Sir William Ramsay found a monument that showed Iconium was a Phrygran city. Later discoveries confirmed that.

In his letter to the Romans, Paul mentions the city treasurer, Erastus (Romans 16:23). The letter was written in Corinth. Excavations of Corinth in 1929 found this inscripion on a pavement: "Erastus, curator of public buildings, laid this pavement at his own expense." The pavement dates from the 1st century A.D.

Many critics have blasted the usage of certain words by Luke.

Luke called rulers in Philippi "praetors." Scholars argued that two "duumuirs" would have ruled the town. However, archaeology shows that the title of "praetor" was employed by the magistrates of a Roman colony. Luke was right.

Luke called civil authorities in Thessalonica "politarchs." Critics said there was no such person. However, 19 inscriptions have been unearthed which use the title. Luke was right.

Luke called Gallio "proconsul." The Delphi inscription was unearthed which reads: "As Lucius Junius Gallio, my friend and the proconsul of Achaia."

Sir William Ramsay wrote of Luke: "Luke is a historian of the first rank ... this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians."

The Bible is to be trusted as an authentic Book of antiquity. Archaeology supports and confirms facts as stated in the Bible.

yeti · 05-25-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:i haven't been here in a while.

Welcome back.

Quote:Jesus claimed to be God while he was still alive, it's why they crucified Him.

I believe he only pronounced himself the son of God. I also believe they crucified him for pronouncing himself the King of the Jews.

What are your sources?

Quote:The Bible is to be trusted as an authentic Book of antiquity. Archaeology supports and confirms facts as stated in the Bible.

I've heard otherwise.

Thanks for your opinions - they go beyond the usual bible thumping - but it would be nice if you could provide proof.

humbug · (This post was last modified: 05-25-2008 09:59 PM by humbug.)

jesus was castrated by ishtar, male menstruation and other hardcore metaphor. pre-fabricated-religion follwers seem, apart from boring, to be stuck with a moon turned sun turned musical and hollywood movie public relation stunt. truly polyphrenic monotheism based on the shame and denial of cross+breeding. stop blaming the ancestors "obscene" fucking, triggering first symptoms of hypocritic behaviour in the mishmash sapiens and get on with it. for all i care, the rabbit in orbit wins due to its proximity.

christian ritual basically seems nouvelle cuisine, testicle specialty cannibalism with a shot of homo erotic vampirism.

shadow watcher · 05-26-2008, 01:14 AM

yeti, thanks it's nice to be back,

Quote:(yeti) I believe he only pronounced himself the son of God. I also believe they crucified him for pronouncing himself the King of the Jews. What are your sources?

1. Jesus pre-existed His physical birth

Jesus actually created the universe in Gen 1:1 (John 1:3, Heb 1:2,8-12; Col 1:16-17)

Jesus existed before Abraham who died 2000 BC: John 8:56-58

Jesus existed before John the baptist who was six months older than Jesus: John 1:15 + Lk 1:24-26

2. Jesus is Divine in name and is called "GOD" directly: John 1:1-3

Passages where Jesus is unquestionably called God

Heb 1:8 Father addresses son as God
Jn 1:1 The word was God
Phil 2:6-8 Jesus existed in the form of God
Jn 20:28 'My Lord and My God
Isa 7:14 "A Child Will Be Born And His Name Is Called": "Emanuel: God with us"
Isa 9:6 "A Child Will Be Born And His Name Is Called": "Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace"
Jn 14:8-10 He who sees Me sees the Father.

3. Theme of the book of John: Jesus Taught He Is Divine

Overview of John:

We begin in John 1:1 with a plain statement of fact that Jesus is God. The gospel of John traces the process of Jesus teaching this fact of His divinity to mankind in various settings. Finally the book closes with another plain statement of the fact of Jesus' divinity, except this time it comes from the mouth of "doubting Thomas".

4. WE ARE TO WORSHIP JESUS AS GOD:

A. Angels should not be worshipped, only God: Rev 19:10; 22:8-9

B. Men should not be worshipped, only God: Acts 10:26

C. Jesus accepts worship from Angels:: Heb 1:6

D. All creation worships both Father and Lamb: Rev 5:11-14

E. Men worshipped Jesus and He did not refuse:

a. From the wise men - Mt 2:11

b. From the leper - Mt 8:2

c. From the ruler - Mt 9:18

d. From His disciples in the boat - Mt 14:33

e. From the Canaanite woman - Mt 15:25

f. From the man born blind - Jn 9:38

g. From the women and other disciples following His resurrection - Mt 28:9,17

h. From the disciples following His ascension - Lk 24:52

below is a good example of something used to witness to Jehovas Witnesses which show Jesus and Jehova are one.

Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generation from the beginning? I the LORD, the first and the last; I am He.

Ask them whos this? They must reply that this is Jehovah God.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Ask them whos this? They must reply that this is Jehovah God.

Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel , my called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last.

Ask them whos this? They must reply that this is Jehovah God.

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, what thou seest, write in a book

Ask them whos this? They must reply that this is Jehovah God.

Revelation 1 : 16,17 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Ask them whos this? They must reply that this is Jehovah God.

Now save this one for last!

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write, These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

and then ask them who is this? It's Jesus.

Jn10:30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

yeti · (This post was last modified: 05-26-2008 01:32 AM by yeti.)

Quote:yeti, thanks it's nice to be back,
Quote:(yeti) I believe he only pronounced himself the son of God. I also believe they crucified him for pronouncing himself the King of the Jews. What are your sources?
(... lots of quotes from the books of the controllers ...)

Thanks anyway...

trueaim · 05-26-2008, 01:47 AM

Quote:Sir William Ramsay wrote of Luke: "Luke is a historian of the first rank ... this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians."

The Bible is to be trusted as an authentic Book of antiquity. Archaeology supports and confirms facts as stated in the Bible.

The Holy Bible is the best historical record we have, God promises to preserve his Word and historical record so that humans can read and understand their purpose and being and history etc, He dosent let foolish humans destroy the records, He is in control of them, the people who held the pens and wrote the Holy Bible were as they say themselves acting under the orders of God.

shadow watcher · 05-26-2008, 06:49 AM

yeti, you said "i understand that Jesus pronounced himself the son of God."

i logically thought that you obtained this from the bible as i don't know anywhere else that Jesus proclaimed Himself the son of God. so when i responded i cited sources from the same book that i thought you were quoting.

and as for the book of controllers comment, i disagree. the controllers don't want you to read the bible.

the freemasons that control the supreme court have taken God out of the classroom, now they want to abolish preaching on tv. Christians are cited as terrorists in fbi flyers!

and this is done, because they want you to read the bible? because it's their great mass control system?

wrong, tv is their mass control system, and they want God's word off of it.

it's the media, the movies, the tv shows, old occult repackaged as new age for a one world religion, it's the music, the advertisements.

book of the controllers indeed!

05-26-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:jesus was castrated by ishtar, male menstruation and other hardcore metaphor. pre-fabricated-religion follwers seem, apart from boring, to be stuck with a moon turned sun turned musical and hollywood movie public relation stunt. truly polyphrenic monotheism based on the shame and denial of cross+breeding. stop blaming the ancestors "obscene" fucking, triggering first symptoms of hypocritic behaviour in the mishmash sapiens and get on with it. for all i care, the rabbit in orbit wins due to its proximity.

christian ritual basically seems nouvelle cuisine, testicle specialty cannibalism with a shot of homo erotic vampirism.

Bob Dylan eat your heart out.... :laugh: