Did the Church oppress the Dead Sea Scrolls?

[Azrael]

Prove your myth boy then. That's a nice wall of text but I see nothing proving sky boy!

[FastTadpole]

Proof is a burden on both sides. People have been debating religion in general for (at least) 1000s of years. It was founded by the big question "What happens when we die?" We are no closer now in answering that core question.

When it comes down to it - we have got little to have faith in, in terms of concrete historical record because such a record, if it exists is obfuscated by other records which may or may not be fabrications and in the very records themselves where the 'truth' resides could be buried in a stinking sloppy pile of red herrings. That said with all of the subterfuge surrounding the era something significant more than likely took place, logically speaking.

FYI: Myth's etymology actually translates to "mouth story" but I presume you had the intent of using a word akin to fiction. Not to be too semantic but the meaning has been lost over the ages.

.. and sometimes even fiction has some truth to it by way of metaphor or something cryptic for fear of persecution if touted as outright fact.

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."
~Robert Jordan

I'd tend to gravitate to a more philosophical discussion as 'facts' tend to root thinking and conjure belief unless proven by some means that is transparent, auditable and replicatable like the scientific method before the age of scientific objectivism - where everything can be true if enough people agree it is true.

It's good to have multiple interpretations since we don't all see through the same eyes, but there are core truths buried beneath and math is a good tool combined with chemistry, geology if the methods themselves are not corrupted and limited in scope - and I suspect they are to a degree as well, if only due to our limited understanding at this phase in the game.

[R.R]

(06-30-2011 06:52 PM)Azrael Wrote:  Prove your myth boy then. That's a nice wall of text but I see nothing proving sky boy!

You have already made up your mind, the accuracy of Christs existence has no bearing on anything I do, I care not either way. I will only bring to the table 'evidence' that, if you are apparently a scholar, you will have already come across and have already thrown out of the window. I don't claim to bring any new research to the field of that question. My position was one of agreement with FastTadpole when he said:

FastTadpole Wrote:I think the true history of Jesus will never be known but he was a phenomeom or perhaps a personofication of a movement that happened ~2000 years ago. TPTB tried to contain by build a religious / social construct around it, incorporating it into the Monarchy, Law and the evolution of the Church.

Which is something you don't seem to be able to grasp. These circumstances also occurred with other religions and, just like Christianity, I give those religions no credence in terms of the claims they make and their subsequent demands of being authorities. I am more interested in what was happening socially, the exploitation of the imperial Romans and the Jewish priests would have inevitably led to social dissent and probably somewhere in there is Jesus or a figure that became the myth - an obscure labourer who was unlikely to have his life as well documented as the elites of society and the subsequent movement becoming co-opted so as to not have it be a true threat to the powers that be of the day.

Anyway how about you answer some real questions?

Are you really free from bias, especially when your avatar contains 666, an inverted pentagram and symbolism generally associated with those who tend to be anti-Christian?

Are you sure your promotion of said symbols does not cloud your judgment into accepting a theory that is not even agreed upon by various scholars past or present?

Are you going to discredit other religions or will you maintain a crusade against Christianity?

You seem to be parrotting the research of others, if not, where is the proof of your own studies into these topics?

I notice too you are decreasing the amount of crap you are writing in response, in order to stop exposing yourself as a prejudiced, bigotted, assumptive moron who, inspite of claiming to want debate, responds in precisely the same manner as the very people you are claiming to despise suggesting you have learnt nothing in your search. Although I don't think you are sincerely searching, you are merely trying to cater to your own philosophically idiotic belief system - part of which demands you blast Christianity. You are therefore no different to the religiously brainwashed for you engage in precisely the same behaviours as them. At no point have you suggested you might be wrong, you have not intimated that you individually have analysed the evidence offered by others, you have not even stated your own religious position to at least ascertain if you yourself have an agenda. All your actions have indicated that you have a hidden agenda or a different motivation for posting. Then you have the audacity to accuse people of censorship when you hide your own bullshit. There is nothing to hide on my part, you on the other hand don't seem to want to admit to certain things because they will show you up as biased.

My contention with you was to establish your motivations for your line of research because as an observation I have found people that promote your line are just as biased as the people you attempt to expose.

R.R Wrote:The problem with the likes of Acharya S, and yourself Azrael, is that you are not free from bias when analysing Christianity.

You have yet to show how your bias does not cloud your conclusions. In the world of scholarship, which offers many interpretations as to who Jesus was, for you to say for sure you agree with ANY position means you have either evidence that scholars of several decades have not had access to, or the most likely scenario, you are simply promoting a theory which fits in nicely with the rest of your world-view - and that is bias.







Boy!

[Azrael]

(06-30-2011 07:17 PM)FastTadpole Wrote:  Proof is a burden on both sides. People have been debating religion in general for (at least) 1000s of years. It was founded by the big question "What happens when we die?" We are no closer now in answering that core question.

When it comes down to it - we have got little to have faith in, in terms of concrete historical record because such a record, if it exists is obfuscated by other records which may or may not be fabrications and in the very records themselves where the 'truth' resides could be buried in a stinking sloppy pile of red herrings. That said with all of the subterfuge surrounding the era something significant more than likely took place, logically speaking.

FYI: Myth's etymology actually translates to "mouth story" but I presume you had the intent of using a word akin to fiction. Not to be too semantic but the meaning has been lost over the ages.

.. and sometimes even fiction has some truth to it by way of metaphor or something cryptic for fear of persecution if touted as outright fact.

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."
~Robert Jordan

I'd tend to gravitate to a more philosophical discussion as 'facts' tend to root thinking and conjure belief unless proven by some means that is transparent, auditable and replicatable like the scientific method before the age of scientific objectivism - where everything can be true if enough people agree it is true.

It's good to have multiple interpretations since we don't all see through the same eyes, but there are core truths buried beneath and math is a good tool combined with chemistry, geology if the methods themselves are not corrupted and limited in scope - and I suspect they are to a degree as well, if only due to our limited understanding at this phase in the game.

Interesting observation..................

[pax681]

(06-30-2011 12:00 AM)Azrael Wrote:  [quote='pax681' pid='216283' dateline='1302034468']

Quote:Mind you the only contemporary evidence of christ existing was proven to be a later false addition into Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews which was a large tract written to appease the Roman emperor.

Thats not evidence. The Josephus passage was a forgery no doubt done by the great church father Euseibus who even admitted that lieing to advance the faith was OK...Origen who knew Josephus well admitted that he did not acknowledge knowing or ever hearing of a Jesus.

i did say the Josephus stuff was faked.. see the stuff now in bold for your reference

[Azrael]

(07-01-2011 12:06 AM)pax681 Wrote:  

(06-30-2011 12:00 AM)Azrael Wrote:  [quote='pax681' pid='216283' dateline='1302034468']

Quote:Mind you the only contemporary evidence of christ existing was proven to be a later false addition into Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews which was a large tract written to appease the Roman emperor.

Thats not evidence. The Josephus passage was a forgery no doubt done by the great church father Euseibus who even admitted that lieing to advance the faith was OK...Origen who knew Josephus well admitted that he did not acknowledge knowing or ever hearing of a Jesus.

i did say the Josephus stuff was faked.. see the stuff now in bold for your reference

Got it, thanks....

[KM1]

(05-31-2011 05:18 PM)Amerikagulag Wrote:  JMO: I don't think it matters so much whether or not the man Jesus actually existed as much at it matters how the claim of 'god's son' evolved. The fourth century brought us a wealth of pure BS with Constantine creating a religion to unite his kingdom. It was always, ever about POWER. Of course the old testament is a pile of wishful thinking as well so the very foundation of the religion is sand. The biblical religions are not long for humanity. And when they are finally laid to rest, man will be free to evolve once again.

Many teachers have come and gone and humanity still does not learn. But it behooves the powers that be to keep humanity in darkness lest they find their true natures.

I agree that it is ALWAYS about power. However, to Christians it means a great deal whether or not Jesus actually existed. Their entire foundation rests on the crucifixion/ resurection ditty. No Jesus means that no one died for our sins, did not ascend bodily to heaven and so on. I am not Christian, or any other denomonation for that matter, but what is it that ol Cooper used to say? "It doen't matter if you believe it, because they do." And since we're talking about a good goddamn lot of 'em we must keep a weary eye upon those sheeple waiting for their shephard to return. HaHA!!!
KM1

[Azrael]

(07-03-2011 09:50 AM)KM1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2011 05:18 PM)Amerikagulag Wrote:  JMO: I don't think it matters so much whether or not the man Jesus actually existed as much at it matters how the claim of 'god's son' evolved. The fourth century brought us a wealth of pure BS with Constantine creating a religion to unite his kingdom. It was always, ever about POWER. Of course the old testament is a pile of wishful thinking as well so the very foundation of the religion is sand. The biblical religions are not long for humanity. And when they are finally laid to rest, man will be free to evolve once again.

Many teachers have come and gone and humanity still does not learn. But it behooves the powers that be to keep humanity in darkness lest they find their true natures.

I agree that it is ALWAYS about power. However, to Christians it means a great deal whether or not Jesus actually existed. Their entire foundation rests on the crucifixion/ resurection ditty. No Jesus means that no one died for our sins, did not ascend bodily to heaven and so on. I am not Christian, or any other denomonation for that matter, but what is it that ol Cooper used to say? "It doen't matter if you believe it, because they do." And since we're talking about a good goddamn lot of 'em we must keep a weary eye upon those sheeple waiting for their shephard to return. HaHA!!!
KM1

Quote:"It doen't matter if you believe it, because they do." And since we're talking about a good goddamn lot of 'em we must keep a weary eye upon those sheeple waiting for their shephard to return. HaHA!!!

Yep. I agree. And they still have not figured out he's not coming back cause he never was.....