Nationalism v.s Patriotism

[shZ]

How is being attatched to a near obsolete phase in the progression towards the New World Order a good thing? Fuck America... just like every other fucking nation state in the world, which are nothing other than product of colonial bloodshed and / or a primary step before super states like NAU or EU. And you think you're "awake" while you're still indocrinated with the love for a brutal violent coercive institution? Patriotism is way fucking better than nationalism, but it still revolves around the same contrived institution. A national identity cannot exist with out a nation state. Hence, you cannot have patriotism with out the existance of this ethically unjustifiable institution. I was disillusioned with concept like nationalism, patriotism, and national identity at a very young age... becuase I always knew they were unnatural contrived bullshit concepts. Plus, growing up and living in multiple countries and states will reveal the absurdity of such notions to any critical thinker. Granted most people don't have that life experience, so it's understandable why it's harder for them to see it.

America was founded on pure and utter hipocrisy. "Freedom? Life? Liberty? Pursuit of hapiness?" Fuck you, you egotistic disingenous asshole. A nation founded on genocide and slavery can never fucking be a nation based on ideals of freedom, and sure as fuck is NOT a light to the world. This nation is masonic to the core, not Christian. The "founding fathers" were Masons, not Christians. Capitalism doesn't mix with the teaching of Christ, as hard as that is for most brainwashed Americans to believe. There's nothing great about this nation, never was. Like George Carlin said, "It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."

No, I'm not fucking proposing a one world goverment or system. Keep your nationalistic insecurites and paranoia to yourself. The only natural human society is small communities. Everything else is a result of greed, the lust for power, and / or the desire for control (or a desire for lack of responsibility and subservience). Modestly sized communities is the only way a community can truly be socialist, capitalist, democratic, or and other "ic," "ism," or ist you desire. Larger structures with always require too much organization for most to keep up with or bother with, or have any meanigfull participation in. The federal goverment was a big mistake. The NAU will be an even bigger mistake. The UN is the last mistake we can afford to make. And we will, knowing how fucking absurd humanity is. History has demonstrated what uncivilzed beasts we are. We don't have the balls to militarily confront our enemy, and lack the resources to "brainwash" the masses to "our" way of thinking. If you for a second think that your quest for "waking people up" (i.e. confrming you your subjective take on what that means, implies, and entails) doesn't bearn any resemblence to religious indoctrination or preaching, haha, think again... or rather, don't... you can't criticize their tactics while using the same yourselves, and I'm refering to the media and alternative media here. Alex Jones is a fear mongering propagandist with his own stupid nationalistic agenda that isn't terribly different than O'Rielly than in his journalistic ethic "cut his mike off!" Way to go Alex, you employ the same propaganda techniques that the mainstream media does. Sensationalized reporting, non-factual "facts" (i.e. spin), melodramatic presentation, fear mongering, emotionally manipulative imagery and music... etc etc. This new fucking counter cultural phenomenon of AJ / 9-11 truth worship is just as fucking disingenuos and cointelproed as all the others in recent history.

EDIT: Do you define yourself as an individual, or taxed and enslaved state asset who's last purpose is to be cannon fodder for notions, ideas, and institutions that have nothing to do with your true human nature?

[trueaim]

Your right Alex (CIA) Jones and the 911 truthers are selling out more people to the NWO than they are waking up.

[jack]

I was going to leave this thread alone, but I can't resist words like -fuck, stupid, brainwashed, a modified shut-up, with a Jesus thrown in. I might even be misunderstanding you here, but those dammed words compel me to reply.


What is a "Modestly sized community" - how many peeps would that be ??? - how is it different than a neighborhood or village ???
How will establishing "Modestly sized communities" help us ???
How will it get us out from the grips of the global controllers, the money men, the robber barons, the elite unseen rulers - the tentacles of the global octopus ???
What would the advantages be, of living in a borderless global village, even if it was full of modestly sized communities ???
Do you propose to kill off all the people in control, all the unseen ruling elite, corporations and foundations ???

If not, - these folks will still rule over the communities and the globe, separate nations or not.

Get rid of the nations individual sovereignty - then there can be a universal set of rules and regulations, a universal system of authority ruling over the entire globe. - A global village - which is really just a big land grab by the few families working behind the scenes. They want power and control, the multinational corporations and nongovernmental organizations are their worker bees.

This universal authority will make the "market state," resource restrictions, and human exploitation even easier for them. - No ???
(of course, they can accomplish this without literality removing border or nation, it's a global universal system, they want. We can still have our technical borders, they just need the representatives and corporations... of all regions to work together globally, under a universal code. The villagers need only function within their particular village, under the watchful eyes of the code enforcers.)

It's all about control, power and greed !!! - They want to control all the resources, including the human ones !!!



The same families have been calling the shots and manipulating global chaos for hundreds of years or more, some say thousands. - Again, How do you propose to stop them ???
They are still going to be in power regardless of whether or not, there are individual nations. They hate nations that don't fall under their created global universal system because they impede their business goal of profit and power.
As long as we use their money, regardless of the national pictures on the different issues, - they own us.

How do we stop using their issued currency, realistically ???




If you can gather a group of peeps and create a community, existing totally without their cash and apart from government. Great more power to you, I wish people would/could do this.

But, can it be done ???
Can you escape the grips of the global money men -the tentacles of the global octopus, by forming modestly sized communities ???

Or am I not permitted to ask these questions, since they may be viewed as myself not holding to your phrase of - "Keep your nationalistic insecurities and paranoia to yourself."
Sorry shZ, when I have an opinion I usually voice it, and I live under the luxury of not giving a shit if I'm agreed with, liked or if consensus is formed. (tho it is nice to be befriended, even sweeter when in can continue despite the disagreements)



Communities within States, is what America was at one time. However states rights ended when we ceased to be America and turned into the USA.
I don't see how we can get any of those rights back now, for we are all under the thumb of the international bankers and corporations. They are not just going to say OK you guys just go ahead and group off - make your own rules, live free, pay no tax, - we don't mind.

Again I ask - (not to argue with you, or say that your wrong. - I just simply don't get it, perhaps because I am a stupid hillbilly, or so I'm told) -- How are we to achieve this idea place of "Modestly sized communities" as long as the money men are calling the shots, manipulating global affairs ???




I see communities that sound a lot like what you are referring to, on Free speech & Link TV, but these communities are on television programs promoted by foundations that have been formed by more Globalists - tax-exempt foundations - like -
the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the Century Foundation, the Rhodes Scholarship Trust, the Carnegie Endowment , The Annenberg Foundation, John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, Wallace Global Fund, William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, Rockefeller Brothers Fund, Shei’rah Foundation, John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, Otto Haas Charitable Trust, and Park Foundation, Tides Foundation, Better World Fund, Open Society Institute ect...

What gives with that ??? -
- These are money men ! (they are working both sides. In the south, they are known as Robber Barons)


Why are we wasting time putting down nations, instead of convincing people of the idea that government, corporations, and foundations of rich elite 'do gooders' are NOT their friend or savior ???

IMO, when nations individual sovereignty is gone, - they, the money men, can do even more heinous things to the worlds people. For then we will be, smack dab in mist of totalitarian global government.

Quote:A nation founded on genocide and slavery

Yes, we all know that the native people were screwed in the hands of the money men, and so were the slaves. I by no means defend such a wretched idea as forced servitude

but -
lots of places besides America had slaves (Arab nations had them, Europe had them, even Africa enslaved it's own.) I doubt a single person moved to America so they could be slave holders, they already had that in Europe.
Plenty of folks came to America and lived in homes built with their own two hands, and worked in mills and stores, that they also built - without any slaves involved. -- The vast majority of people in America didn't even have any, - they were owned by the wealthy peeps. -- But you already know this.
I'm just tired of it being portrayed that slavery is a blight to american alone.

Quote:Capitalism doesn't mix with the teaching of Christ, as hard as that is for most brainwashed Americans to believe.

neither does other any other "ism"
Jesus didn't speak for or against socialism, capitalism or any other "ism." He promoted the government of God "the Kingdom or God" alone.

Many think of him as a socialist or communist - but
Jesus gave no instructions for possessions to be held "in common". He did however tell a rich young "elite" to distribute his wealth among the poor, to be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
This was not a general command to the populous to share or give all their possessions away. Though I'm sure that he is all for sharing. As for that young elite rich man - he did nothing to force him to follow his advise of giving away his large fortune.

Paul - "All believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions were his own, but they shared everything they had." -- key word being believers
The sharing that took place in Jerusalem, in the above quote (Acts 4) was voluntary.
Redistribution of wealth under communism, for example - is compulsory, (I know that this is not what you said, it just came to mind, while considering Jesus and material wealth.

Quote:or taxed and enslaved state asset

again I ask, how is this to be avoided ??? - paying tax
The money men and the true unseen elite rulers, want it for themselves, or to redistribute wealth (others, not theirs.) Unless of course, it is to be used to gain more global power and influence.

How will your community escape, needing their money or paying tax ???
or is the goal to lose money entirely, having everything provided by the state or community. oopps - now we are back to enslaved state (or community) asset, but hey no taxes.

Just quit if you don't want to pay taxes or be a "enslaved state asset." To me, this is an achievable goal. One person on their own, no job, no money, no home. Just become a wanderer, whom gets his needs fulfilled on their own, or from the kindness of strangers. (or maybe go deep into a forest build a shelter and plant a garden (tho this would be more difficult, to do without cash)) To me, this seems more achievable than a community avoiding the system.


last thought-
Capitalism (not today's corporate capitalism) began in America only after socialism failed. -- Jamestown and Plymouth colonies were both ruled under socialism, forbidding private property and demanding that each settler work for "the common good." After founding Jamestown in 1607, most all of the original 104 settlers were dead due to famine, caused in a very large part by poor planning of governors. Two years later, the Virginia Company sent 500 more 'recruits' to settle in Virginia, and within six months, most of them were dead by starvation and disease, - once again poor planning was involved. -- In 1611 - private property was put into place, and the people then benefited from their labor, production increased and famine ended. This original brand of capitalism in America succeeded where government planed and controlled society failed.

sorry shZ, but I dont see the logic.:confused:

So if I, think that my country is a better place to live than some others, and don't want it getting worse. - Don't want it in any tighter of a grip from the global money men, - does that make me a Nationalist, a Patriot, or neither ???

[nataraja]

Well said, I enjoyed the read, I agree with you.

It seems we have progressed and progressed before our hine sight could even become a realization. Now we are here with two ideals battling it out. Complete order, biometric ids, rfid, dna cataloged, stamped and approved. Or a global conscicousness shift towards a new understanding of purpose and meaning. Both sounding completely utopian at this point unfortunatly.

What it seems like to me is that WE are fucked, and WE are only truely realizing how fucked WE are as time goes by. This system we have grown to love is not going to last. The results will be interesting.

[shZ]

You missed the point, as you're still quite attached to what you're used to and have grown up with. All your response said was "well, regardless of having nation states or not, the elite are all powerfull and would be ruling over us anyways." Someone obviously isn't up with their history reading, or rather, is obvlivious how the world was prior to nation states being created. All indiginous communities and populations have eigther been destroyed, or controlled by centralizaing power via the formation of nation states. That's the primary phase, then it's superstates, then it's a single global state. Being in love with the primary phase is still being very much conditioned and indoctrinated. I was merely pointing out the frivolity and hypocricy of being a nationalist, or a patriot... which aren't really that different. Nation states are nothing more than a means of centralizing power, and that was their original purpose... still is.

EDIT: If someone can spare me their American flag, I'd like to spit on that digusting symbol of opression.

EDIT2: Capitalism is NOT the reason for America's "success," it was more like having free labour... you know, slavery. This nation has been build on the backs of slaves and the corpses of native americans, there really isn't any room for debating that.

[shZ]

Quote:I was going to leave this thread alone, but I can't resist words like -fuck, stupid, brainwashed, a modified shut-up, with a Jesus thrown in. I might even be misunderstanding you here, but those dammed words compel me to reply.

There isnt' a single "Jesus" in my post anywhere:confused:. I used the word "stupid" once:

Quote:Alex Jones is a fear mongering propagandist with his own stupid nationalistic agenda

I used the term brainwashed only once as well, in reference to Capitalism somehow being compatible with Christianity:

Quote:as hard as that is for most brainwashed Americans to believe.

I used the word "fuck" in different variations ten time though :biggrin:... my bad :tongue:.

I'm sorry if you're offended, but it was a rant stemming from my frustration over the fact that a lot of these truthers don't give a shit about injustices that happend outside their borders yet claim to be fighting for freedom, justice and all that stuff... the fact is they're not, and the don't care about a new world order as long as it doesn't affect them personally. The "NWO" pretty much already exists in certain places around the globe, which some of these "truthers" have openly expressed their support or indifference for. The only thing they seem to give a shit about is their own nation, which basically means they don't value human life or any of the pricniples they claim to stand for, they only value their national interests. That's all... well... not all, but part of it anyways.

[hammer]

Nice rant shZ,now that's something to mull over.

[yeti]

Quote:The only natural human society is small communities.

I agree, mostly. I would add that it is natural to form associations with neighbouring communities, but only for issues of common interest, like trade and mutual defence.

[shZ]

Quote:

Quote:The only natural human society is small communities.

I agree, mostly. I would add that it is natural to form associations with neighbouring communities, but only for issues of common interest, like trade and mutual defence.

Agreed. :smile:

[shZ]

Oh yeah... one more thing... sorry about my extremely pissed off tone through much of this thread, my frustrations were getting the best of me :huh:

[jack]

Quote:You missed the point, as you're still quite attached to what you're used to and have grown up with. All your response said was "well, regardless of having nation states or not, the elite are all powerfull and would be ruling over us anyways." Someone obviously isn't up with their history reading, or rather, is obvlivious how the world was prior to nation states being created. All indiginous communities and populations have eigther been destroyed, or controlled by centralizaing power via the formation of nation states. That's the primary phase, then it's superstates, then it's a single global state. Being in love with the primary phase is still being very much conditioned and indoctrinated. I was merely pointing out the frivolity and hypocricy of being a nationalist, or a patriot... which aren't really that different. Nation states are nothing more than a means of centralizing power, and that was their original purpose... still is.

EDIT: If someone can spare me their American flag, I'd like to spit on that digusting symbol of opression.

EDIT2: Capitalism is NOT the reason for America's "success," it was more like having free labour... you know, slavery. This nation has been build on the backs of slaves and the corpses of native americans, there really isn't any room for debating that.

Thanks for clarifying that for me shZ, I now understand better, and sort of agree. (tho I don't think that you should assume to know what I am or am not attached to)
I get the point that you are now making, but this centralized power system that we live under, and have for oHooo so very long is the world as we know it. - Yes, that was my point, it still is.

So again, I ask - how do we realistically get out of it now ???

This "centralized power" in today's world doesn't need nations to have power, it is a banking system.
They own and control the peoples of the globe, national boundaries or not.



"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave
them the power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of
a pen they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former President, Bank of England

The above statement is true. - Just a few families are holding the wealth, they have the power in our world, they control the resources .
How do we change this, short of a catastrophic event that the whole globe must suffer under ? - An event which even destroys the resources that create individual wealth ? - (or it will happen again)

Unfortunately, unless, you can convince people to all rely on each other - totally - without money or the resource that they control - at all, we as the worlds peoples, need them. - I don't like it but its true.
Heck they manage to even get into the remotest area of the globe and screw things up for people who have never even heard of money. My point is - how do we change this ???
How will moderately sized communities help us, short of them being formed after some really terrible earth shattering calamity ??? Something that forces us to start over again, basically from scratch. (doesn't sound like a pleasant event)

Quote:I'm sorry if you're offended, but it was a rant stemming from my frustration over the fact that a lot of these truthers don't give a shit about injustices that happend outside their borders

I'm not offended just equally frustrated. & sometimes, like now, I need to rant too.

Yes, there are people like this. - Yet, there are also many, many people who do give a shit about others living in other geographic locations besides there own, borders or not. - I do !
I don't like the things that go on around the globe, I don't like the way people suffer, but what can be done ? Many people do lots of things to try and help, but in the end, the money men continue to manipulate events.



Yes, I am glad that I live in a nation, that is better off than some others. Do I think my nation is the best - NO.
There are many other places to live besides USA, that are relatively ok, like it is here. I feel blessed to have been born somewhere where I have food to eat and can stay warm or cool when necessary. Does this make me bad that I don't yearn to live somewhere were I'm hungry, or waiting for my family to be slaughtered by some flunkies working under wannabe money men ???
I don't want these things for anyone - who does ? Only some sicko would want that for others

Again, many people from many countries including america do try and help people who are suffering or being tormented. Does it mean that we don't care, purely because we don't want to see our children or their children grow up in a setting that is harsh, that we want them to live as we are accustomed to ? Does america have to starve as well, before the people who live here are seen as caring about others, or giving a shit ?
- I enjoy food, I don't want to starve, I don't want my children or anyone's for that matter to starve or be tormented, oppressed, watched, controlled, ect....


My point is - it's the money men that are the problem not america or any other nation or its inhabitants. We are all under their grasp.


Yes, USA is part of G10, but so is Belgium, Canada, France, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, Germany and Sweden, not leaving out Luxembourg. So why do I never hear fuck these nations, but continually hear fuck america. American citizens aren't to blame, neither are any others anywhere else. It's the money men
There are a few families that really do seek to rule the world. They have the gold and issue our worthless paper that we call money.

How do we stop them ??? -- seriously, how
How do we talk the whole world into dropping out of this system, and how do we prevent them from sending in forces to stop us if we tried to ???

I want answers - Don't you ?:angry:

Quote:Someone obviously isn't up with their history reading, or rather, is obvlivious how the world was prior to nation states being created

Hmmm, my knowledge of history tells me that many places scattered over the globe, beside amercia, were built by slaves.

Many slaves labored on the estates of the pharaohs, the nobility and the priests. Seti I announced on the Wadi Halfa stela how he had endowed Min-Amen's temple at Buhen, so that his storehouse was filled with male and female slaves from the captivity of his majesty, L.P.H. Ramses III is said to have given 113,000 to the temples during the course of his reign.

This is more than 3 thousand years ago, how much history do I need to know, before I can justifiably say that america isn't the only place were folks were forced into servitude, by the money men ??? - The statement on the beginnings of capitalism in america is also true.



Sorry to debate with you shZ, but I log on and what do I see ? - I see a thread devoted to over 3 hundred million americans being crammed into a nutshell of stupidity, (i ranted in that thread as well, perhaps you saw it) then I turn the page and see, fuck america and all nations. - However, I see NO threads devoted towards the fucking of any European nations, or Japan or Canada.
I'm tired of it, not your rant, but the rant in general.
Not everyone within the borders that create the nation known as USA formerly America, is a racist retard.


Why am I tired of it ? - Because it is, the MONEY MEN, that are creating the global chaos, not peoples of different nations.
The nations peoples are all merely enduring or dieing as we are being used in their games.

Quote:There isnt' a single "Jesus" in my post anywhere

No, I guess the word Jesus wasn't officially in your post, but when I see the word Christ in connection with the word Christian, I think of Jesus.
Sorry

[jack]

Quote:Oh yeah... one more thing... sorry about my extremely pissed off tone through much of this thread, my frustrations were getting the best of me :huh:

as you can see I'm frustrated as well.

not a you personally however.
peace :smile:

[yeti]

Quote:Oh yeah... one more thing... sorry about my extremely pissed off tone through much of this thread, my frustrations were getting the best of me :huh:

No need to feel sorry for that - we can hack it.

Let it all hang out brother - as long as nobody gets hurt....

[yeti]

Quote:So again, I ask - how do we realistically get out of it now ???

This "centralized power" in today's world doesn't need nations to have power, it is a banking system.
They own and control the peoples of the globe, national boundaries or not.

You hit the nail on the head - our problem is the banking system, which is imposed on us from above.

The solution is to minimize their influence by avoiding the use of fiat money whenever possible. Barter, and exchange labour for labour, whenever you can - starting at a local level.

Barter Toronto
B2B
Canadian Barter System

A friend of mine started a Community Association in his neighbourhood in Aylmer, Quebec, initially because they had to get together and sue the scumbag who built their houses. They built a web site to more easily contact each other. It's now grown into a tool sharing system, where they lend all manner of things to each other. They are apparently planning block parties etc. and having a grand old time.

This doesn't totally break the chains of enslavement, but it's a hell of a start...

[nataraja]

as if ever words like freedom and democracy had ever had any practicality. in our progression towards more progression have we ever realy stopped to think where we are going. I mean real open debate not bias and controlled by corporate interests. Now im not against capitalism and think we should have a real free market not controlled or regulated by a so called government, which in fact is regulated and controlled by the very participants in said market.

If we shall decide to continue this government then we need to make sure that it is going in the correct direction. That it is not corrupt at its very core and that it is not unwillingly sending us on a path of destruction.

To try and design a system that is without government control and yet still remains regulated in order to reach maximum potentialities sounds utopian.

So whatever the answer may be to this problem some have lovingly called the human condition. It would only be human to adapt and change to the best possible outcome.

For me it is clear that this is the case today, but unfortunatly the best possible outcome is not for you and me, it is for somone else.