"Astro-theology" is bullshit

[deathstickboy]

If there was a historical figure named jesus who did preach what was attributed to him, it still does not justify the belief that he was "the one true son of god, who died for our sins" and so on, as professed by the Apostolic/Nicean Creed.

Besides that, if you take the story of Jesus seriously, its rather hard to leave out the fact that he was visited by 3 Magi from the east. The Magi were Zoroastrians, and thier religion formed the basis for a great many aspects of the Jewish faith, as well as christianity as a result.

The Magi were ASTROLOGERS, who would have considered Jesus to be the latest incarnation of Zoroaster most likely, the prophet for the new astrologicl age of Pisces. Jesus symbol is a fish, the symbol used for the fish just so happens to also be part of the "Vesica Pisces"



Also, take a look at this mosiac from an early christian church, depicting two fish swimming in the oppoite direction, the symbol for the constellation of Pisces.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1135575/ancientfishmosaic

Not just a happenstance coincidence if you ask me. ;)

I could go on with examples, but you get the idea.

[humbug]

"see, your coming from the tsarion school of human ego, ego was caused by genetic alien intervention etc"

WTF???

not. just stated the raping of neanderthal women by the righteous good-loving cromagnons (prehistoric christians maybe) not bloody ALIENS! do you even bother reading posts?
nothing tsarion, no thank you. there is plenty of good information on the huge topic of semiotics elsewhere, no need for pop conspiracy dvd pushers and all the other clowns.
and what a waste of time debunking them. who are you debunking them for anyway? in a language other than english such smartass behaviour would be called riding on the dot of the "i". happy mounting, congratulations.

sh7 why is it so hard to defend? there is nothing to defend, do you have a problem with metaphor or does that concept not exist in human culture? is it all literal?? really???

[Melchor]

Quote:I thought this video might help explain what Im saying.
It was made by an atheist/agnostic who came to the same conclusions regarding the NWO and Jesus
Its short but really goes in to the money trail and other details showing the connection and the reason (from his perspective)
that they are lying about Jesus.

Its called
"They are misleading you"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vPXc1QcmYDY

So what exactly was the point of this clip, besides wasting 10 minutes of my life? All it does is push the Christian/Luciferian dialectic which is one of the biggest parts of their MK Ultra op. The biggest problem isn't that people are being misled into belief in a false messiah coming to save the world, but in misleading people into believing any messiah is coming to save the world. This includes Matreya, the Mahdi, Jesus, Mohommad, whomever the Jews are waiting on, aliens, etc... It's all a con job and buying into any of them feeds their plans, because like everything else they control all sides.

Edit: Misplaced quote tag

[nowheretorun]

Quote:

Quote:I thought this video might help explain what Im saying.
It was made by an atheist/agnostic who came to the same conclusions regarding the NWO and Jesus
Its short but really goes in to the money trail and other details showing the connection and the reason (from his perspective)
that they are lying about Jesus.

Its called
"They are misleading you"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vPXc1QcmYDY

So what exactly was the point of this clip, besides wasting 10 minutes of my life? All it does is push the Christian/Luciferian dialectic which is one of the biggest parts of their MK Ultra op.

please explain.
I have done a good deal of research into mind control.
Im not sure I follow you here.

then you seem to more or less agree with the premise of the video while saying essentially "i already knew that"

in case you missed it the movie is saying this.

all religions are waiting on a savior that can easily fit what the UN/new age/ eastern/EU/ Vatican are calling for.

exept jews and Christians are essentially in the way because of prophecies warning of just such a figure. being false and bad.

this poses a threat assuming that the NWO does intend to put a figure on the throne, so to speak, at some latter date.

[Melchor]

My point was that they don't care which messiah you believe because they know it's a scam. They'll just keep killing people and putting up messiahs until most of the people left buy into one. The whole new age messiah is just hedging their bets. The Christians and Jews will end up getting played just like everyone else, just a bit later down the line. messiah, anti-messiah, synthi-messiah.

The mind control is the fact that they're keeping people stuck in their savior con game so that people don't notice that nobody is coming to bail us out. The video makes the issue about the NWO trying to establish Lucifer as the world messiah. That totally misses the point, which is that the NWO is trying to establish any world messiah as ruler. They don't care what messiah people believe in, so long as they do. Granted the dogma of the Jewish messiah complicates things a bit, but all that does is add an extra step to their program to convince people. The problem above all others is the messianic belief itself, not a false messiah (because there is no true messiah.)

As to the MK Ultra comment I was being somewhat flip because I personally see religion in general as the precursor. Take young children and explain to them that if you don't believe in certain things and act certain ways you will be tortured in indescribable ways forever. Sounds like trauma based mind control to me.

But if you wanted to apply it to the 'truth' movement, you could look at it like this. The mass of lies and horrors hidden from people is monumental. When people become exposed to just a fraction of what has happened since WWII, their realities can completely shatter which makes them highly suggestible and much more susceptable to any sort of indoctrination than they would ordinarily be. That's why the conspiracy movement is full of Biblical 'prophesy,' new-age 'philosophy,' alien 'science,' and other such fantasy designed to totally brainwash and incapacitate the individual 'truther.' I see the Christian flavor as no different than the new-age or alien in that they all promote feelings of: 1) helplessness, 2) reliance on some external force, 3) apathy to resist the current situation because it is somehow preordained, and 4) sometimes gets people to waste time trying to meditate/pray away the problem.

Edit: I guess I should make it clear, that I don't think that there's a problem with Christianity per se. However, I do think that belief in Revelation and belief that currently is the 'end times' is pernicious and harmful.

[shZ]

Any belief (or interpretation of a belief) shifting the burden of personal or collective responsibility is counter productive and a total mind fuck.

EDIT: That's is astrology for most people. I have X characteristic because this is my sign conjuncting my anus which forms a cusp with my head by uranus. :rolleyes:It's the same mind fuck, one's just more exotic and 'esoteric'

[standvast]

Shz Wrote:So short of ad hominems and straw mans, no one can actually defend "astro-theology?" Interesting.

Why would one feel drawn to defend stargazing, mapping the heavens and interpreting the maps,. or the concept of astro-theology?
doesn't make much sense to me , as i consider it historically evident to exist.
To say it's "nonsense" from a perspective of Biblical belief only points out how a
firm belief in the validity of the Bible has people often dismiss or cancel out contrary or adverserial ideas.

Nowheretorun,..

check out these links .
at least then your not stuck with Maxwell, Tsarion "New Age shit", Blavatsky .

Bullinger - The Witness of the Stars

Dupuis - The Origin of Religious worship
chapter 8 ; Explanation of the Christ fable

peace'

[humbug]

thanks bunnyhero! here's one for you guys that hasn't been mentioned so far, further giving credence to the obvious, which really needs no defense at all.

mnemonics and other memory hooks. reminds me of schooldays and studying latin.

Giordano Bruno (1548, Nola – February 17, 1600, Rome) was an Italian philosopher, priest, cosmologist, and occultist. Bruno is known for his use and development of the art of memory, a mnemonic system based upon organized knowledge. He was also an early proponent of the idea of an infinite and homogeneous universe. Burnt at the stake as a heretic by the Roman Inquisition, Bruno is seen by some as the first "martyr for science."

beware of good old christians, famous for their rash behaviour.

[standvast]

Nowheretorun Wrote:You might want to download an astronomy program to confirm what Im saying.
Here is a link to one of the ones I used.
http://www.stellarium.org/

I hope you understand that a modern astronomy program does and can not refute
observations made 4000/2000 years ago with different models and perspectives.
Trying to "disprove" an observation based on geocentric astronomy with a map
built on heliocentric astronomy ....and no personal "mystical" interpretation to the observed is quite useless imho.

Quote:What I mainly covered in this first part (more coming) is the following:

1.)The idea of the three stars in Orion’s belt aligning with Sirius and pointing to the rising sun on Dec 25th is very misleading for a number of reasons.

-misleading- implies you were planning on heading in a different direction,
or were assuming to be "lead" in a benevolent and singular "truthful" manner.
What do you consider the misleading aspect to the observation,
or ; what do you disagree with about the observation and it's significance?

Quote:2.)The idea that the sun rises in the southern cross on the solstice (or anytime) being a physical impossibility

There are 2 things unclear about this statement to me...
First,.. the sun is often said and described as dying on the cross of the Zodiac,
which is not equivalent to Crux or the southern cross,
but is a symbolic representation of a circle (the heavens) quartered into seasons as such ;



The savior on the cross, symbolically represents the cycle,
and how this cycle is continuous , far beyond a single perishing of the physical.
i don't understand why one would want to try to deny the many representations
of godmen on crosses having a distinct relation/similarity to ones particular crosspinned saviormodel.
One imho really does'nt/shouldn't need (focus on) maxwell, tsarion or new age authors/guru's
to find out for yourself that the motif is ancient , and prevalent in many cultures/beliefs.

Of the Crux / Southern Cross , Bullinger says this ;

Quote:The Southern Cross was just visible in the latitude of Jerusalem at the time of the first coming of our Lord to die. Since then, through the gradual recession of the Polar Star, it has not been seen in northern latitudes. It gradually disappeared and became invisible at Jerusalem when the Real Sacrifice was offered there; and tradition, which preserved its memory, assured travellers that if they could go far enough south it would be again seen. Dante sang of "the four stars never beheld but by the early race of men." It was not until the sixteenth century had dawned that missionaries and voyagers, doubling the Cape for the first time, and visiting the tropics and southern seas, brought back the news of "a wonderful cross more glorious than all the constellations of the heavens."

Linkage to source

Quote:3.)The sun staying motionless for three days on dec 25th

as far as i know , the claim is not exactly "motionless for 3 days"
it is an observation of gradual (literally ; by degree)
setting and rising of the sun , which shows an anomaly on the winter solstice,..
namely the static rising and setting on the same degree, not motionlessness.
which is symbolically interpreted as a death and promise of the redeeming or rejuvenating principle,
which becomes often superimposed on a human or godman figure so people can relate
themselves and their personal cycle to the cycle of the heavens and the cycle of life on Earth.

Quote:4.)And why this is being told to the truth movement. IMO

because people represent their respective truths for others to reflect on ?
maybe even to see who has a knee-jerk reaction to the information presented,..
why do you feel the need to present your findings on astro-theology to "the truth movement" ?

@Melchor and HorseonWheels (below)
great posts..:) informative and well-considered,. methinks.

@33cifer
thanks for your comments/ , also for the Bruno example.

Peace'

[horseonwheels]

Quote:do you think for one minute Im doing this because I think its fun. people HATE me a LOT. that is something I have to get used to.

I dont hate you that is for sure Chris, and i dont hate your choice of religion. Im not a native english speaker so sometimes my choice of wording is simple due to a limited vocabulary thus it can come of harsher than its meant to be. Im sorry if you thought i did hate you. my concerns are the same as Melchors basically. For good measure, I am a follower of Mohamads creed so i know all about having to defend ones religion. Zeitgeist are as harmfull to Islam quite obviously, as it is to christianity, as we altso operate with jesus being a prophet. But we both (you and i) have to give it a backseat position in the search for truth and when we are involed with the "truth movement" which by and large is political in nature.

Several things in zeitgeist are dceptive, much of the criticism surounding the horus is Jesus thing is justified entirely, but some of it isnt. And i have seen these claims on several debunking pages and i know for a fact that they feel it has been debunked because its not on the internet, they couldnt find the claims other palces on the net, thus it doesnt exist. In this way relgious comunities are as stupid as the conspiracy one can be by turning ecno chambers of eachothers errors, and because "its everywhere" it becomes selfevident truth. Have you followed the debates between Acharaya and some of her critics, beyond that companions book she made? she actually have used a wide range of sources, and has a lot of valid points. Understand that no researcher is ever going to "nail it down". It hasnt happened, it will not happend. But each researcher find a field of interrest and do their best to dig up what can be dug up on a subject and then perhaps even try to make some kind of conclusion from the data.

Acharya doesnt miss a chance to tell the world how terrible Islam is, how violent, abuse, dangerous etc...so i have as good a reason as any to hate her guts as any. But i dont. And i dont think she is a new age messiah send to destroy the religion. I think she is a very intelligent woman who is sick and tired of male dominatied religion and patriarchal thinking because in the 3000 years that we know it has been dominant....it hasnt done all to well, so i cant really blame her. On the other hand, all she does with christianity is question the validity of the jesus mythos because of all the obvious refference characters found all over the middle east, and somehow people get stuck with horus because there are some errors in it. Not many, but some. So to boil it down. You proving a few points on horus wrong, does not prove that all her research is wrong or that christianity is right, and thats the game i feel that you and other christian researchers are playing. If murdoch (acharya) is wrong about that, surely she must be wrong about everything, if Jordan is wrong about that, surely he has no creditability,,,well...actually he doesnt really, but you know what i mean right? I question that your method may be skewed by what motivates you, and we as "truthers" have to be able to make a destinction, a clear destinction, beteween what is fact (what can be proven) and what we personally would like to be fact.

[shZ]

Quote:

Shz Wrote:So short of ad hominems and straw mans, no one can actually defend "astro-theology?" Interesting.

Why would one feel drawn to defend stargazing, mapping the heavens and interpreting the maps,. or the concept of astro-theology?

Well, because they totally go over board with it and make claims as non-sequitur and silly as theology... not to mention flat out lie just for the sake of vocalizing their grudge against religion X, which extends to individual people as is evident by this thread. Plus blaming the stars for your problems is a little, umm, retarded. That kind of fanaticism is equally revolting. And I guess I'm a bit pissed of at some of the posters here driving SE away.

[nowheretorun]

Quote:Several things in zeitgeist are dceptive, much of the criticism surounding the horus is Jesus thing is justified entirely, but some of it isnt. And i have seen these claims on several debunking pages and i know for a fact that they feel it has been debunked because its not on the internet, they couldnt find the claims other palces on the net, thus it doesnt exist. In this way relgious comunities are as stupid as the conspiracy one can be by turning ecno chambers of eachothers errors, and because "its everywhere" it becomes selfevident truth. Have you followed the debates between Acharaya and some of her critics, beyond that companions book she made? she actually have used a wide range of sources, and has a lot of valid points. Understand that no researcher is ever going to "nail it down". It hasnt happened, it will not happend. But each researcher find a field of interrest and do their best to dig up what can be dug up on a subject and then perhaps even try to make some kind of conclusion from the data.

Acharya doesnt miss a chance to tell the world how terrible Islam is, how violent, abuse, dangerous etc...so i have as good a reason as any to hate her guts as any. But i dont. And i dont think she is a new age messiah send to destroy the religion. I think she is a very intelligent woman who is sick and tired of male dominatied religion and patriarchal thinking because in the 3000 years that we know it has been dominant....it hasnt done all to well, so i cant really blame her. On the other hand, all she does with christianity is question the validity of the jesus mythos because of all the obvious refference characters found all over the middle east, and somehow people get stuck with horus because there are some errors in it. Not many, but some. So to boil it down. You proving a few points on horus wrong, does not prove that all her research is wrong or that christianity is right, and thats the game feel that you and other christian researchers are playing. If murdoch (acharya) is wrong about that, surely she must be wrong about everything, if Jordan is wrong about that, surely he has no creditability,,,well...actually he doesnt really, but you know what i mean right? I question that your method may be skewed by what motivates you, and we as "truthers" have to be able to make a destinction, a clear destinction, beteween what is fact (what can be proven) and what we personally would like to be fact.

I responded to Acharays debunking zeitgeist debunkers video

"Zeitgeistchallenge.com Ownz Acharya S"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jmUGPbNkFeU&...&playnext=1

my question is if she has all this info that proves what she is saying, and we wouldnt understand it because we cant read the language etc, why not just reference it anyway? surely some atheist would be proud to translate it for us. especially if its bad news for jesus.

she makes a ton of excuses why she doesn't have any evidence. but none of them make any sense.

[itmakesmewonder]

The astrotheology business, is just that a business. A new product to confuse the sun with God the maker of the sun. Ingenious and the sun is all over half the multinational logos.
This Acharya woman is very shifty and why is she going under a name from the Vedas, God conscious literature?

[iamthelolrus]

Horseonwheels nailed it on the first page, Theres really nothing to add.

Ill contrived shoddily produced hit piece that only serves to massage his own ego and crumbling belief system.

Leo gives it 0/5 powdered minidoughnuts.

[deathstickboy]

Quote:

Quote:

Shz Wrote:So short of ad hominems and straw mans, no one can actually defend "astro-theology?" Interesting.

Why would one feel drawn to defend stargazing, mapping the heavens and interpreting the maps,. or the concept of astro-theology?

Well, because they totally go over board with it and make claims as non-sequitur and silly as theology... not to mention flat out lie just for the sake of vocalizing their grudge against religion X, which extends to individual people as is evident by this thread. Plus blaming the stars for your problems is a little, umm, retarded. That kind of fanaticism is equally revolting. And I guess I'm a bit pissed of at some of the posters here driving SE away.

People who are like that with astrology would be "those types" regardless of the belief system they held.

If christian, they would be like the crazy "god warrior" fat lady and such.

humans :(