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~~---~~ · 01-22-2009, 05:23 AM

*cough*

Quote:Miller may have found good empirical evidence for a chromosomal fusion event. But our experience with mammalian genetics tells us that such a chromosomal aberration could have created a non-viable mutant, or a normal individual who could not produce viable offspring. Thus, Neo-Darwinism has a hard time explaining why such a random fusion event was somehow advantageous.

If it were to turn out that the fusion of two chromosomes can only result in a viable individual if the fusion event takes place in a highly unlikely and highly specified manner, then we may actually be looking at a case for a non-Darwinian intelligent design event in the history of the human genus.

:cool14::icon_wink::signs007::signs003::weeee::smack::hi::dunno::thinking::wavey::signs025:B) :LOL:

JazzRoc · (This post was last modified: 01-22-2009 02:53 PM by JazzRoc.)

MORE smoke and mirrors, dodging the shared retroviral information which quite independently CONFIRMS common ancestry, and even approximately dates the species divergence at 6-8 million years ago. The conjunction of the pattern of identical retroviral fragment positioning with the remarkable and visible design similarity between the two genomes is what completes the argument.

Retroviral incursion positioning is KNOWN BY RESEARCH to be by PURE chance alone. The fact that there are dozens of identical positions leaves no room for doubt whatsoever, that chimpanzee and man evolved slowly, in a progression of thousands of (spaced-apart-in-time) steps, and over six/eight million years of time from a common ancestor.*

ID is deceitful creationism-by-the-back-door, has no science, understands nothing, and consequently operates on sophistry.

The real questions are "How's your Science?", "Do you know enough science to fully comprehend what has been discovered?", and "Are you otherwise condemned to have to utter pure sophistry on this subject in perpetuity?"

*Effectively ruling out God completely. I suppose you could offer up the concept that he individually managed EVERY human genome-change as and when required throughout the human gene pool throughout time. But then you would have forgotten that the same behaviour (evolution) applies to EVERY LIVING BEING, also throughout time.

Faced by a problem TEN BILLION TIMES bigger than Santa Claus's (all those children, all those chimneys!), God slit his own throat with Occam's Razor.

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

~~---~~ · (This post was last modified: 01-22-2009 04:09 PM by ---.)

Quote:MORE smoke and mirrors, dodging the shared retroviral information which quite independently CONFIRMS common ancestry, and even approximately dates the species divergence at 6-8 million years ago. The conjunction of the pattern of identical retroviral fragment positioning with the remarkable and visible design similarity between the two genomes is what completes the argument.

Retroviral incursion positioning is KNOWN BY RESEARCH to be by PURE chance alone. The fact that there are dozens of identical positions leaves no room for doubt whatsoever, that chimpanzee and man evolved slowly, in a progression of thousands of (spaced-apart-in-time) steps, and over six/eight million years of time from a common ancestor.

ID is deceitful creationism-by-the-back-door, has no science, understands nothing, and consequently operates on sophistry.

The real questions are "How's your Science?", "Do you know enough science to fully comprehend what has been discovered?", and "Are you otherwise condemned to have to utter pure sophistry on this subject in perpetuity?"

smoke and mirrors - I think not.

[Image: nelsongraphic.GIF]

Quote:ID is deceitful creationism-by-the-back-door, has no science, understands nothing, and consequently operates on sophistry.

The real questions are "How's your Science?", "Do you know enough science to fully comprehend what has been discovered?", and "Are you otherwise condemned to have to utter pure sophistry on this subject in perpetuity?

Wow, bully boy tactics from 'the scientist' - shame - bottom of the barrel tactic if you ask me. Potentially this is just a mere re-phrasing of your 'mismatched' dig deliverd elsewhere.

No matter - even though I am not a biochemist nor a geneticist like your goodself, I will unashamedly continue to read and construct my own opinions free of attempts of disparagement , no matter how puerile or obtuse such attempts may well be:)

ID is deceitful creationism-by-the-back-door, has no science, understands nothing, and consequently operates on sophistry.

Quote:Intelligent Design Is Not Creationism
Response to "Not (Just) in Kansas Anymore" by Eugenie C. Scott, Science (May 2000)
Michael J. Behe

Science Online
July 7, 2000

Scott refers to me as an intelligent design "creationist," even though I clearly write in my book Darwin's Black Box (which Scott cites) that I am not a creationist and have no reason to doubt common descent. In fact, my own views fit quite comfortably with the 40% of scientists that Scott acknowledges think "evolution occurred, but was guided by God." Where I and others run afoul of Scott and the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) is simply in arguing that intelligent design in biology is not invisible, it is empirically detectable. The biological literature is replete with statements like David DeRosier's in the journal Cell: "More so than other motors, the flagellum resembles a machine designed by a human". Exactly why is it a thought-crime to make the case that such observations may be on to something objectively correct?

Prof. Michael J.Behe Biochemist

JazzRoc · 01-22-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:Pretty much confirms what Evolution is all about now doesn't it. You just once again contradicted yourself JR and indeed shows why the general public should believe that there are no chemtrails. Especially since you claimed to work on them.

Hilly, once again I don't understand you. Evolution is the bedrock of all the biological sciences. I haven't contradicted myself.

I'm an ex-aeroengineer. I have worked with gas turbines and many other engines, and spent a lot of time at drawing boards and, later on, computer screens, designing industrial equipment, products, factories, warehouses, roads, houses, marinas, electronic equipment, military equipment of many sizes and types. I have also invented a household air-to-air counterflow heat exchanger capable of saving as much energy from the wasted vented ventilation air of a house as is saved by a thick coating of insulation for the same house.

I am retired, comfortable, broke (but not in debt!), and will soon receive my old-age pension of about 100 bucks per week. I no longer drive a car, but don't need to. The last money I earnt was 900 Euros, a month or two back, from Lars Steen Larsen for editing and designing his book "Western Esoterism".

Chemtrails are thought to exist merely because people see persistent "vapor" trails these days which sometimes occlude their skies. They also don't trust TPTB. Failing to understand the sky above them (it contains 5000 aircraft over the US at any moment), they then conclude their government is poisoning them. My objection to that is that they are making a mistake (they are!), and by concentrating on a mistake they are not "searching for the truth" at all.

hilly7 · 01-23-2009, 12:43 AM

Well your certainly entitled to your opinion as am I or anybody else. I think the arrogance you give forth bothers me more than anything. A man that feels he has nothing left to learn is about as sad as they come. For the ignorance you think of others, they think of you. But what I think doesn't matter the same as what you think doesn't either. What is real and true is real and true and what is not is what is not. If you like the way the world is headed then set back and enjoy. If you think all is well, then enjoy. Just keep grazing.
For you, evolution may be the corner of your world as well as some scientist, for many others it is not. Both are religions and therefore both are with what religion calls faith, and science calls theory. Neither have 100% proof. As for chemtrail, I have seen what I can only call chemtrail, having a step father that was a pilot years ago. In Whore's film even he speaks about intentionally placing up particles in the sky, but he says it is for global warming.
For me, I attempted to retire an didn't like it and while my jobs would be seen menial to you, I am also not in debt. That is with 19 cars, 1 bike, 2 houses, and a farm, plus partnership in a realty company. That does not make me successful, just fortunate and blessed. I too have a pension (for now, lol), but I chose to freeze it. At my age now I can wait about 15 years and draw more, which I will never see, but my wife will. I farm because I love it. If you ever want to know (not think) how dependant we are, try farming.
I'm through arguing with you, I've better things to do.

JazzRoc · 01-23-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:I think the arrogance you give forth bothers me more than anything. A man that feels he has nothing left to learn is about as sad as they come. For the ignorance you think of others, they think of you. But what I think doesn't matter the same as what you think doesn't either. What is real and true is real and true and what is not is what is not. If you like the way the world is headed then set back and enjoy. If you think all is well, then enjoy. Just keep grazing.

Set fire to as many straw men as you like. I call it as I see it. You should think with more care than you do. Your assumptions about me make an ass of both you and me.

Dr Richard H Thorndyke · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2009 01:32 PM by Dr Richard H Thorndyke.)

Quote:
Quote:He may very well have not took from the government, thus he owes nothing. Have you ever heard of frame up?
Have you ever heard of "lying, cheating crook"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCGz9dMd1Y8...&playnext=1

Excellent video - it totally destroys the lies that Hovind promotes to the scientifically ignorant.

Thanks very much for posting it.:)

Edit: A question for the admins/moderators: How come one particular ConCen user in this thread is allowed to launch multiple attacks on other users characters by calling them "shills" or "sheep" or "agents" without censure? Reading back over this forum (and talking to users on IRC) people have been permanently banned for much less, a picture of a Lego Mohammed for example. Is this favouritism or just plain hypocrisy?

~~---~~ · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2009 03:44 PM by ---.)

JR hasn't exactly refrained from insults either - but you'll know that already seeing as you read the thread won't you?

Personally, I figured to leave them to it. They are both grown men and if one had a specific problem then they could contact one of the admins.

Neither of them have lodged complaint - only you.

And a biased one at that. You win Monday's wooden spoon award.

Dr Richard H Thorndyke · 01-26-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:JR hasn't exactly refrained from insults either - but you'll know that already seeing as you read the thread won't you?

Personally, I figured to leave them to it. They are both grown men and if one had a specific problem then they could contact one of the admins.

Neither of them have lodged complaint - only you.

And a biased one at that. You win Monday's wooden spoon award.

I wasn't lodging a complaint just trying to work out what was an acceptable post and what wasn't. Thanks for the reply, although you can keep the patronising comments to yourself next time.

~~---~~ · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2009 06:50 PM by ---.)

Quote:
Quote:JR hasn't exactly refrained from insults either - but you'll know that already seeing as you read the thread won't you?

Personally, I figured to leave them to it. They are both grown men and if one had a specific problem then they could contact one of the admins.

Neither of them have lodged complaint - only you.

And a biased one at that. You win Monday's wooden spoon award.

I wasn't lodging a complaint just trying to work out what was an acceptable post and what wasn't. Thanks for the reply, although you can keep the patronising comments to yourself next time.

I wasn't being patronising, I was being flippant. There's a difference - for instance right now I'm being patronising.

Btw. if you don't like the way it is here you could always just fuck off. Pretty much all your posts thus far with hardly any exception have been derisory in nature to the board, you're not exactly a great contributor, so I'll adopt whatever tone I wish when being required to respond to incipient questions and general shit stirring on your part. cheers

JazzRoc · 01-27-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:JR hasn't exactly refrained from insults either - but you'll know that already seeing as you read the thread won't you?

Having read the thread, then perhaps you could point my insults out? You know - provide evidence to substantiate your claim?

JazzRoc · 01-27-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:Excellent video - it totally destroys the lies that Hovind promotes to the scientifically ignorant. Thanks very much for posting it.:)

Thanks. You are welcome.

Quote:Edit: A question for the admins/moderators: How come one particular ConCen user in this thread is allowed to launch multiple attacks on other users characters by calling them "shills" or "sheep" or "agents" without censure? Reading back over this forum (and talking to users on IRC) people have been permanently banned for much less, a picture of a Lego Mohammed for example. Is this favouritism or just plain hypocrisy?

Both. It's born of a clouded perception. Disagreement seems to be interpreted as "insult".

"Truth-seeking" appears to be a form of blindness, and Occam is never allowed to slash away...

~~---~~ · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2009 04:31 PM by ---.)

Quote:
Quote:JR hasn't exactly refrained from insults either - but you'll know that already seeing as you read the thread won't you?
Having read the thread, then perhaps you could point my insults out? You know - provide evidence to substantiate your claim?

Oh, I don't know, the implication that he was maybe not as intelligent as yourself and therefore, the 'mis-match' of the conversation.. that's one I recall off pat - which would be ludicrous to deny imo - there's bound to be other things to as you've both been needling each other for a bit now - I'm not trawling throughout the thread to find specific lines of type.

As said, if either of you had had a problem, then you should have contacted an admin. As I far as I could see - it was a case of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

Quote:Both. It's born of a clouded perception. Disagreement seems to be interpreted as "insult".

"Truth-seeking" appears to be a form of blindness, and Occam is never allowed to slash away...

DRHT has been nothing but derisive since we had the misfortune of him registering here. There wasn't any favouritism - perhaps, if one of you had been singled out and told to reign it in that might have been the case but seeing as you've both had free reign - it's a nonsense to claim so.

Again with Occam's rusty razor. I'd concede more to you if it wasn't the fact that you're seemingly unable to entertain anything yourself, which falls outside of your own paradigms and constructs. That in itself is perhaps belies a from of hypocrisy - if only as you ironically rail the charge at the members here, yourself.

You fellows, want to stir and moan - feel free, within reason, but don't expect me to engage - not worth it.

Never once when I browse through skeptic forums do I see the inverse of what we put up with here from people calling us blind, or ill, haters or what have you.

What I don't understand is that if the place is such an anaethma for some why they feel the need to troll around complaining here, in the first place, when quite easily instead they could just find places where the analysis was more in fitting with their own [narrow]outlook. DRHT being a case in point.

'blind and hypocrites' nice one, JR;)

Glad you don't resort to insults but 'only disagree':rolleyes:

JazzRoc · (This post was last modified: 01-29-2009 02:38 PM by JazzRoc.)

Quote:Oh, I don't know - not as intelligent as yourself - 'mis-match' of the conversation - ludicrous to deny - other things - needling each other - not trawling - had a problem - 6 of one and half a dozen of the other - DRHT - nothing but derisive - had the misfortune - to reign it in - free reign - it's a nonsense to claim so

Not as informed - "wrong and right" info is a mismatch - I haven't insulted (so of course I deny!) - what other things? - because you know you cannot find - no problem - hardly! - not quite true about DRHT - don't be so quick - rein - rein - that itself is nonsense.

Quote:you're seemingly unable to entertain anything yourself, which falls outside of your own paradigms and constructs

I comment on what I know and understand only. There's a lot on this site which I can only read and try to understand. I USE a large amount of this site, hope to use more, and give the best I can to it. Other people here ARE trolling.

And as an example - this post is called "The Evolution Hoax", is it not? Not wishing such a patently untrue statement to go unchallenged, I posted an exact and precise definition of what evolution actually IS (rather than the pathetic crowd of burning straw men previously punted).

And the general response? - SILENCE. Not a single comment. Time passes. Then ten square miles of astroturf appear. All of it flaming straw...

Have you forgotten already? Well done!

Quote:anaethma - to troll around complaining here - their own [narrow] outlook

Anathema - see above - you aren't exactly famous for the breadth of yours, either. You are naughty, but I like you (thump!):)

hilly7 · 01-28-2009, 01:54 AM

QUOTE
anaethma - to troll around complaining here - their own [narrow] outlook

Anathema - see above - you aren't exactly famous for the breadth of yours, either. You are naughty, but I like you (thump!)

Have to disagree with you JR, nik being narrow viewed? I may be, but he definately isn't. Even in this thread he submitted evidence on both sides. Like much of his research, he presents both sides.